I spend half my time contracting to Ford in Dearborn Michigan which is where I met Tim some time ago. I have never met Kevin and know little about him myself.

As for fox chasing down a single predator game, i dont see it happening.

Its like homemade custom orders. There is demand for ip-infringing homemade crafts, some of which is met online in sites like etsy. The IP holders get to play whack a mole with the IP thieves, but not every battle is worth fighting or winnable.

Even Disney doesn't squash every single unlicensed frozen product that trades hands. How exactly does fox make money by confiscating the machine?

I wasn't commenting on copyright infringement. I was commenting on buying stolen property.

You are speaking for a lot of people. I wouldn't have.

LTG : )

No No, I'm sure he is owning one of my 4 fully paid machines. Although I got some money back from the CC company my loss is almost one Predator ;(

Omg unless you have proof like a written agreement that you wanted prototype number 2 or whatever it is that pinchili owns, and it was signed off and OK"d, which I'm sure was not the case, then pinchili does NOT own YOUR predator machine. What a moronic statement. Come on people.

Also pinchili purchased no stolen goods, so I don't get the argument there either.

An IP check or an IP check?

image.jpg

'that was stolen' -- key difference. What you outline is correct for STOLEN GOODS

Counterfeit goods are not stolen goods. Until someone says the game was taken without permission from Kevin -- it's not a discussion about STOLEN GOODS or theft.

I compliment you on defending your friend. You know him under different circumstances.

But as Pinchili, Tim has gone out of his way to be insulting to many members on Pinside including myself. And the insults he has posted have been completely unnecessary and way out of bounds. For many people here, your friend is a troll and keyboard commando. Currently his account is frozen by the moderators and for good reason.

I have to admit my accelerated participation in this thread is because I was glad he was in trouble. - That's an issue I'll need to evaluate myself on...

Hopefully now that hes been outed as Tim Fife he'll take it down a notch.

No.

This is completely false. There is no dependency on being a copy of an existing good. If you make some random handbags, put a Gucci pattern and logo on it... it's now counterfeit goods. Counterfeit's are not just 'bad copies' - they are products that imitate another good, brand, or IP without permission. Just like the random bag is 'faking' being a Gucci product.. Predator was 'faking' using other people's IP.

Apparently some people did have special arrangements to buy some of the pre-production stuff.. but Kevin failing to deliver on that agreement does not make the game 'stolen' nor does it mean the original agreement person 'owned' the game. Until it's actually delivered, its just an agreement to purchase.

Trueeee

Correct, it is the "mark" that qualifies the good as counterfeit.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2320

"(a)Offenses.—Whoever intentionally—
(1) traffics in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services"

So it's considered counterfeit, not stolen... For my own education, what are the ramifications of that (and the selling of counterfeit goods) to the buyer(s) of said counterfeit goods?

I can't imagine that owning counterfeit goods is 'ok' or 'tolerable' just because they aren't considered stolen goods? Surely Fox would have some sort of legal recourse to pursue the acquisition or destruction of infringing products, which is really what we're curious about no?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt two nights ago, but the above statement is so wrong - on so many levels - it is actually trolling (in what is already an awful situation). You are being booted from this thread. Please start a moderator feedback thread, in a polite and respectful manner, so we can gauge whether you should be allowed back into this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Confiscation of counterfeit goods is not unheard of (I've read of programs at airports grabbing fake purses and watches being carried out of China by tourists). Whether that would actually happen for a large item like this of which only a few were made and sold is a different question. The usual practice is probably to go after the counterfeiter.

I better return the NFL jersey I bought from china before the NFL comes and takes it away from me.

BTW- Isn't a counterfeit a copy of an existing good/ or brand? I'm asking this in all honesty. Like, if I bought this car from my friend Tyrone, have I just bought counterfeit m&m's?

ejSY4.jpg

Mods/Ops, can you please check the IP for "Pinrebel" and lmk what it is in a private mail please

This carried his brand/logo, I don't believe he had a 20th Century Fox logo, he was not positioning this as someone else's product, he has not taken their brand, he has taken their IP. The term Predator is not a trademarked term, possibly the logo, but I've never seen it with the circle R or TM.

Seems to me this is IP theft, not counterfeiting, but I'm not a legal expert and the legal definition certainly may be counterfeiting, not that it really matters much as far as which term applies.

Wanna make a wager on that?

message Robin and he should be able to take care of that for you

At the core of the concept.. the IP holder can pursue ensuring the unauthorized copies/uses of their IP be returned or destroyed by order of the court. Basically, they have the right to ensure only their authorized versions exist. But actually enforcing that is where the difficulty comes in. Once the items are out on the open market, or in the hands of individuals, its typically too difficult or expensive to pursue.. so classically the enforcement is pursued at the source or distribution. Basically force the people to destroy their stock.. threaten people who are involved in the distribution of it and try to stop the bleeding. Most of the time, its not worth pursuing one person, one item at a time.. so they focus on the 'big fish'.

In a case like this, it may be easy to win a judgement to say the item should be destroyed or deem it as unauthorized.. but to actually get it enforced? That requires again additional action.. and follow-ups to try to get enforced. They won't call the sherriff and say 'go break down that guys door and burn that game'. The guy holding the game has legal protections too, and copyright/etc are not an area they enforce, etc. Fox could send threatening letters, etc.. but reaching into someone's home is not trivial.

It's not a crime to buy a counterfeit good or knockoff.. but it is illegal to produce or traffic them.

There most certainly is a distinction between trademark vs copyright here.. but for the context of the discussion I don't think it matters. In either case here, it is clear infringement on the copyright, identities, and probably a slew of material that was trademarked. Picking apart which is where doesn't really change the root topic here.. that IP infringement isn't under the same laws as larceny... even tho we often call IP infringement 'theft' - because of the loss of control and financial impact it has on the IP owner.

and if those companies sent a cease and desist they'd have to stop. kevin got multiple c&ds and kept taking orders and telling people it was fine.

It's like computer game mods, most of the industry are fine and ignore it but if they request you stop you have to abide by that and stop what you are doing.

Also for pinchili part of the issue having that game would be the circumstances of how he acquired it and if kevin was hiding assets.

This begs the question... what exactly is one supposed to do with their unlicensed one-off game when they're tired of playing it? Wheel it to the curb? But then (technically) you're liable if someone steals it!

Fair use is not quite as cut and dried as you make it out to be here. First, if the game is created by and for one's self, it doesn't matter if "most usually nobody cares", fair use makes it absolutely legal. Selling the game would be iffy, but not automatically disqualify fair use, especially if the sale price reflects just the materials used to make the game. Trading it for another game would also be hard to prosecute... "Well, we're just going to trade back in a few years." What damages can you prove? Any copyright suit would go before a judge, who will .. well, judge whether the infringing piece was created to make profit, or simply as a fan project that someone's trying to get rid of. That Goonies pin is a perfect example.

<dupe>

That's depositions, internet law guy.

There is a local car club member that has an M&M themed car somewhat like the one pictured in your post. Next time I see it a pic I will post.

I thought I saw it and took a few pics of it awhile back. Alas, it was something close, but different....
IMAG5094.jpg
IMAG5095.jpgIMAG5096.jpg

Will you be there this Friday? If so, we'd like a full report. I can't make it as I'll be traveling back from Wisconsin.

hit me up and I will swing out to Pooleys to finally meet you and play a few games.

He could have read one of "vid's guides" on the subject or he may have got married to her after she already owned the house.

I don't think he's entitled to a Dowerage/Dower Interest on a female spouse's home. That kind of thing will get ugly soon thanks to "Caitlin Jenner" situations.

BINGO !!

ONLY reason I got ANYTHING back (well, at least my final payment in full of $4500) was because of AMEX !!

Kevin was asking for payment in full WELL AFTER he got his C & D from FOX in 2013, so its not like he didn't know he shouldn't be doing what he was asking us initial depositors to do (i.e. PAY IN FULL) !!

Kevin / Skit B has ONLY answered ONE single email I've sent him & that was about about adding a spare plastics set - Kevin / Skit B has NEVER responded to ANY other emails I've ever sent regarding the Game I put a deposit on & had been Paid In Full.

I would still really like to have my initial deposit of $250 back but pretty sure that will never happen because Kevin is - well apparently KEVIN

Of course it is. My point is viewpoints differ for many people. Many know it is illigal but also believe it is ok and no big deal. Just like pinchili buying the pin. They would have rone the same thing. That is my point!

If you were in a Walmart parking lot and were offered that pin, on the spot, for $10...you would have said no? I do not believe that for a moment friend

you are

cue "beavis and butthead"

none of this, i believe its ok BS...

I would have bought it (if I'd like the pin, which I don't)!

Better for the guys taking legal action as it adds money to Kevin's account which in the end would be the source for reimbursement.
Better for pinball due to the likeliness that the existing machines will have to be destroyed as an outcome of the lawsuit. If it's not in Kevins hands it's more likely to survive.

The value of this pin, from a legal point of view, is zero. It's a non-licensed product and as such can't be sold. The pinball community is better off if Kevin doesn't have it.

so whose got the other 3 .?

There are more?
Can I buy one? What's Kevins email address?

Congrats... you've been promoted to Captain of the Spelling Police!

Look I don't know who you are or why you are here - but you damn sure can't come on here and call LTG a liar. He is one of the most respected names in the hobby and has probably played pinball while you were in diapers.

And - just because your morality allows you to participate in shady/illegal dealings don't assume anyone else is that way. Most people would not receive stolen/potentially subject to lawsuit goods under any circumstances let alone pay for them. You would though, huh?

That's exactly what several of us are saying. I wouldn't take possession of it for free.

The games were built on fraud and lies, with money from good people. I don't want anything to do with them, I don't even want to touch them.

All this time on Craigslist and I should have been cruising dark parking lots. Damn.

There is still hope for you.

no surprises there.. wonder how long had it been under her name only.

Stop projecting.

I wouldn't have bought it either. Not a chance. It's simply not worth risking my bar license to do something so stupid.

Nice try, but we all know that wasn't a spelling error.

what_to_do_with_predator_pin.jpg

I don't really care if you believe it or not.

I don't buy stuff in parking lots. You know it's a scam of some kind going in.

Now what I do do is take out pencil and paper and write down make and model of vehicle and license plate. That usually ends things quick.

And to further this, if offered the game free, cheap, or expensive. Knowing what has all gone on with it's history. I wouldn't touch it at all. Parking lot, at someone's house, or in my business.

Lloyd