(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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  • 815 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 33 days ago by Cobra99
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There are 18269 posts in this topic. You are on page 195 of 366.
17
#9701 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

I can see Kevin has been reimbursing as many people as he can as fast as he can.

wut.gif

I get you're trying to defend your boy after you basically outed him. But you need to pump the brakes on this stuff, because you are 100% wrong.

#9702 3 years ago

Hey pin rebel I'm one of the people who got TRICKED over and I'm in on the lawsuit. I know what's going on with it out side of pinside. If you did you would just shut the HECK up and leave this thread. I get UPSET enough about the whole experience I don't need your OWN OPINION adding to it . Grow up and move on. Nobody wants you in this thread.

#9703 3 years ago

Oh and the only people who got refunds were through their credit card. He hasn't sent any to anybody

#9704 3 years ago

Still waiting for my refund of $3,000.00

#9705 3 years ago

I'm still waiting on my empty Virtua Pin cabinet.

#9706 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

He stated "come back here next month, I DARE YOU". That is very threatening. Not sure how you see it otherwise. That's not right.

...all it means is he won't be welcome there as it should be. Kevin didn't just have a failed business he flat out lied to people and kept trying to lure in buyers despite receiving multiple cease and desist orders.

31
#9707 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

Anyone here can build 1 or 2 games of any copyrighted material they want. As someone else said there are apparently a half dozen people on this site publicly doing just that! That is fair use of IP and selling the game for the money you put into building it is not illegal either. Mass producing the game and selling it for profit would have been illega

Whoa ... sorry, no you cannot build 1 or 2 games using copyrighted material and sell it? ... where on earth did you come up with that interpretation of fair use? Read the fair use statutes, the minute you charge money for it (amongst other things), it's not even close to 'fair use'. If you use/create it for yourself and don't sell it, then most usually nobody cares ... but when it turns into $ and tangible goods for sale, then it's not fair use.

#9708 3 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Oh and the only people who got refunds were through their credit card. He hasn't sent any to anybody

hey warbound saw your down vote. I guess you know somebody who got a refund from kevin or are you just trolling like your avatar.

#9709 3 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Oh and the only people who got refunds were through their credit card. He hasn't sent any to anybody

Technically untrue if no time period specified: some people got refunds from Kevin in 2014 (sometimes after repetitive requests or threats to sue).

I doubt many (if any) received these refunds after the licence-gate. I did receive an email from Kevin on March 24, 2015 stating:

"To the many of you who have continued to support us and prefer to receive your game, I'm sorry to say that this is the end of the road and you, too, will be receiving a refund instead of a machine."

I am still waiting for these refunds... Guess I am not alone.

-2
#9710 3 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

hey warbound saw your down vote. I guess you know somebody who got a refund from kevin or are you just trolling like your Avatar.

I am allowed to down vote...am I not? Have I violated any Pinside rule? I down vote when I do not agree with a post. People down vote my posts using this same rational. I have no issue with them doing that. Are you trying to pick a fight or something? If yes, I will not waste my time on you!

10
#9711 3 years ago

PinRebel......Kevin; is that really you??

14
#9712 3 years ago
Quoted from hollywood:

PinRebel......Kevin; is that really you??

It's probably his Mom

#9713 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

It was foolish of him to have acquired that machine under any circumstances. Doubly stupid to be so public about it

I disagree. Sometimes, in conversation, it is best to exaggerate to make a point. When doing so it is crucial to not change key facts. An example is many folks would say stealing 5 blank sheets of paper from your employer for a home printer is no big deal...it is ok, not really illegal since you work there. These same people would say it is not acceptable if the person stole 500 sheets..or 5,000 sheets! What is the difference? Now to Pinchili...

All you people in this thread...lol...if you were in a Walmart parking lot and some mysterious van approached you offering a Predator pin on the spot for $500, what would you do? Uh huh, every one of you (including me) would have bought it! Many of you would have posted your "Major life time pin score" here on Pinside...probably before you even powered it up. Now did Pinchili pay $500? I do not know and I honestly do not care. What does it matter? Under similar circumstances everyone here would have done it! Lol, what if the price was $10? Same point, ALL here would have done the deal.

I feel bad that crook ripped off so many. However, channeling the anger at someone that jumped on a deal (unfortunately not offered to all of us) is just plain wrong in my opinion.

#9714 3 years ago

Just out of curiosity (didn't read through the complete thread): What's the point of the witchhunt for that guy that has the prototype?
Is it just about "if I can't have it then nobody should have it"?
Or is there a "real" reason behind all this action?

I just don't get what you are trying to achieve by doing this.

25
#9715 3 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

where on earth did you come up with that interpretation of fair use?

Same place Kevin did?

26
#9716 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

As far as anyone here knows that I can see Kevin has been reimbursing as many people as he can as fast as he can. .

Let me just call that statement bullshit. I sued Kevin in small claims court back in May. I won. He shafted me and is in contempt of court. The little punk is avoiding me. Interest is accruing on the judgment that was awarded to me. I'm a judgment creditor and Kevin owes me. He's hidden his money and it's up to me (and Keith's working on the same type of stuff for his clients) to find it.

10
#9717 3 years ago

In Michigan (and I'm surmising most jurisdictions), a thief cannot pass title of something to someone. That's first-year law school teachings. To think otherwise would be to say that if for example, someone steals a band's new album, that you can then burn it to cd's or put it on a flash drive and then sell it because since you have it you must "own" it since it's in your possession

#9719 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Haymaker makes some valid points in my opinion. And well presented also. But I still believe that Pinchili will be subpoenaed and have to explain in court the who, what, where, when, how and why. And if Kevin is found by the courts to be hiding assets or manipulating evidence or whatever, he's screwed. And Pinchili could very well be dragged down with him. At a minimum he will have to hire a lawyer, spend time in court, depositions and he may ultimately have to forfeit the machine.

Selling personal assets isn't illegal. If you give your neighbor $20 for beer... and he sells his car... you don't get to claim his car if he failed to give you any beer. Kevin's assets aren't under seizure or been frozen. He can buy/sell/travel as he wants. The most he has against him right now are small claims judgements. Which he can obviously claim he needs to raise capital for. Until there are actions to force collection or force liquidation... kevin just owes money.

Worst case is someone will interview pinchilli where he got the game, from who, and what he paid. Court and dispositions only come into play when someone wants to get the dirt in front of the jury. If the guy just bought the game from someone... there is nothing to tell, and you don't bring things without any purpose into the courtroom.

#9720 3 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

POS Kevin, know you were noticed, then we tracked you, stalked you,
and we took pictures of you..., and were 5 seconds from confronting you,,,
lucky bastard...come back here next month, I DARE YOU..!!

If you guys had a backbone you would have confronted him instead of talkin shit 4 days later on a public forum? 5 seconds from confronting him??? I doubt it or you would have. Talk is cheap.

#9721 3 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

In Michigan (and I'm surmising most jurisdictions), a thief cannot pass title of something to someone.

Assuming you consider IP infringement theft... but possession of a bootleg CD would not be stolen goods - it would be counterfeit goods. The CD maker wouldn't be charged with larceny - but with copyright infringement. The game isn't stolen... it's counterfeit goods.

#9722 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I sued Kevin in small claims court back in May. I won. <snip> He shafted me and is in contempt of court. I'm a judgment creditor and Kevin owes me. He's hidden his money and it's up to me (and Keith's working on the same type of stuff for his clients) to find it.

Bingo. Kevin is due back in court on at least two more issues here. (The judgment and lawsuit) He goes to court and points the finger at Tim (Pinchili) when explaining SkitB assets and activities.

Better lawyer up Pinchili. FYI: There is no ignorance of the law defense.

#9723 3 years ago

So when your caught with counterfeit goods, do you get to keep them or are they confiscated and use as evidence?
Are counterfeit items legal or illegal ? By possessing couterfit items are you committing a crime?
Is ignorance a good defense ?

#9724 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

Is ignorance a good defense ?

Short of some civilian buying the game at a flea market and not knowing the history behind it, it would be pretty hard to say the buyer can hide behind an ignorance defense.

#9725 3 years ago
Quoted from Warbound:

many folks would say stealing 5 blank sheets of paper from your employer for a home printer is no big deal...it is ok, not really illegal since you work there.

Its called employee theft and it is illegal.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Selling personal assets isn't illegal. If you give your neighbor $20 for beer... and he sells his car... you don't get to claim his car if he failed to give you any beer. Kevin's assets aren't under seizure or been frozen. He can buy/sell/travel as he wants. The most he has against him right now are small claims judgements. Which he can obviously claim he needs to raise capital for. Until there are actions to force collection or force liquidation... kevin just owes money.
Worst case is someone will interview pinchilli where he got the game, from who, and what he paid. Court and dispositions only come into play when someone wants to get the dirt in front of the jury. If the guy just bought the game from someone... there is nothing to tell, and you don't bring things without any purpose into the courtroom.

Good points, Flynnibus. Thank you. It will be interesting to see how the active lawsuit plays out.

#9726 3 years ago

I'm curious what the feeling would be if Kevin had built all of the games and shipped them and then all of this info came out. Would everyone be in favor of turning over the counterfeit pinball? Since, that's the right thing to do? I'm guessing you'd keep your game, same thing for the guy with the prototype. He's not the one that took your money, he just saw a chance to buy a pin and took it. Same thing that most people on here would've done.

#9727 3 years ago
Quoted from Warbound:

An example is many folks would say stealing 5 blank sheets of paper from your employer for a home printer is no big deal...it is ok, not really illegal since you work there.

from where i come from, that is theft. whether its 1000 pages or 1.

#9728 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

So when your caught with counterfeit goods, do you get to keep them or are they confiscated and use as evidence?
Are counterfeit items legal or illegal ? By possessing couterfit items are you committing a crime?
Is ignorance a good defense ?

You do not get to keep them.

For example, if you buy a stereo at a pawn shop that was stolen, the police will take the stereo from you and the thief will owe you the price you paid in restitution. The pawn shop will also get in trouble because there are laws around how they treat items.

Ignorance is a good defense to keep yourself from being charged, but you still are out the money and the item unless the thief actually pays you.

#9729 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Let me just call that statement bullshit. I sued Kevin in small claims court back in May. I won. He shafted me and is in contempt of court. The little punk is avoiding me. Interest is accruing on the judgment that was awarded to me. I'm a judgment creditor and Kevin owes me. He's hidden his money and it's up to me (and Keith's working on the same type of stuff for his clients) to find it.

From experience: as I recall you need to serve him with the judgement first, return the proof of service to the court, and then find out what bank his assets are in for the judge to enforce his judgement to you. I would assume you would have to go through a collection agency to get the last part done.

#9730 3 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

From experience: as I recall you need to serve him with the judgement first, return the proof of service to the court, and then find out what bank his assets are in for the judge to enforce his judgement to you. I would assume you would have to go through a collection agency to get the last part done.

I would bet you could socially engineer that last part out of him, a few phone calls, etc and you'd likely have it.

-14
#9731 3 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Whoa ... sorry, no you cannot build 1 or 2 games using copyrighted material and sell it? ... where on earth did you come up with that interpretation of fair use?

Is there not a difference between selling something for the money you put into it and selling something for profit? I specially stated selling it to recoup his costs. Not for the intention of making profit.

#9732 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

Is there not a difference between selling something for the money you put into it and selling something for profit? I specially stated selling it to recoup his costs. Not for the intention of making profit.

Hence the whole song & dance of Skit-B being a "non-profit".

Yes, he literally thought doing that meant he could sell 250 Predator machines under fair use.

#9733 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

Is there not a difference between selling something for the money you put into it and selling something for profit? I specially stated selling it to recoup his costs. Not for the intention of making profit.

in short, NO.

When you use someones IP and ANY money exchanges hands then you are in the same boat as selling for huge profits. TBT, even if money does not exchange hands there is still the potential for a company to say you are hurting their IP and go after you.

The reality is that big companies dont usually go after little things like this. However, in unique cases or when you have already been on their radar and sent multiple C&D then things can be different and they may decide to put some effort into it.

#9734 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Hence the whole song & dance of Skit-B being a "non-profit".
Yes, he literally thought doing that meant he could sell 250 Predator machines under fair use.

Yah, that sounds a little crazy to me too. 250 games goes beyond just creating some fan art or something. But Im really just curious about all the people making custom games right now using copyrighted IP. Can they really never sell those games to recoup costs? Could they even trade those games for something they consider of equal value? Or can it really never change hands technically? I thought as long as they didn't sell it for profit then it was no big deal but I'm definitely not a lawyer.

#9735 3 years ago

And why is nobody going bat sh.t crazy over all the people that create pinball toppers and other mods using copyrighted IP? It's everywhere.

#9736 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

But Im really just curious about all the people making custom games right now using copyrighted IP. Can they really never sell those games to recoup costs? Could they even trade those games for something they consider of equal value?

yea, for instance the johnny mneumonic rethemed as matrix and the hollywood heat rethemed as goonies. I guarantee both of those sold for many times fair market value of the original table.

#9737 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

And why is nobody going bat sh.t crazy over all the people that create pinball toppers and other mods using copyrighted IP? It's everywhere.

Because several hundred grand of everyone's money wasn't absconded by the topper people. This game is radioactive.

#9738 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

And why is nobody going bat sh.t crazy over all the people that create pinball toppers and other mods using copyrighted IP? It's everywhere.

those are under the radar of the companies that own the IP or they know about them but overlook what is happening so long as there is no plan to go into production. Keep in mind that on a regular basis people do get C&D letters form the IP renter? of Bally/Willaims IP.

It really comes down to IF the IP owners want to put the time/effort into persuing it.

If you are mass producing something for large profit OR you are possibly hurting the IP then you are more likely to be in court/paying fines. If you really are small change or no plan for profit then many companies are going to ignore you.

#9739 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

yea, for instance the johnny mneumonic rethemed as matrix and the Hollywood Heat rethemed as goonies. I guarantee both of those sold for many times fair market value of the original table.

The difference here is the scope of the lies and deceit. I said it earlier, but if Kevin hadn't pre-sold 250 of them, lied to everyone about their legal status, and just made a few prototypes... those would have sold and no one batted an eyelash.

#9740 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

And why is nobody going bat sh.t crazy over all the people that create pinball toppers and other mods using copyrighted IP? It's everywhere.

IP infringement has been going on in this industry for decades. Skit-B just happens to be the biggest company making waves right now, probably because how much money is involved and the sheer number of lies stacked against them. For the record, the guys making the Minions game have no intentions of selling it or making more than a single machine. Can't speak for the others though.

To be honest the reality is most people don't care about copyright (who actually enjoys talking about it?) and would much rather garnish someone making an IP-based game in a flood of support without considering the long-term consequences.

12
#9741 3 years ago

This is not a case of counterfeit goods, this is theft of IP. The machine itself is not counterfeit. If their was an official Predator pinball, and Kevin was making and selling copies of it, that would be counterfeit goods.

If the guys at that auction were owed money from Kevin, and he was there with a pocketful of cash (it was an auction), it is shocking to me that he was not confronted with at least a "hey Kevin, I'm predator number XYz, you owe me $XXXX, so how much money in your pocket". While he would have probably ignored you, you could have raised enough of a ruckus to get him kicked out (although probably yourself as well), and at least he would have had a wasted trip, which I'm sure would have given you some satisfaction.

As far as fair use, any lawyer in that space will tell you it is very murky. Based on the law, it can be open to interpretation of what was done as far as if it violates the rights holder (transformative works, parody, etc.). In the case of Predator, it absolutely violates it, it directly uses IP content and is being done for profit, there is no wiggle room, and everyone here recognizes that. Kevin was also using music from the sound track and not sure if that has a different IP owner, but we have certainly see where the music industry does not take kindly to theft of IP. Accordingly, if money changed hands, even on a single item, it is theft of IP. Whether the IP holder would care enough to go after someone is a different issue. The reality there is it comes down to money or if they feel that what is being done can be damaging in some way. Typically they are going to go after the maker not the buyer, but that does not mean they can't. The "jayne hat' from firefly is a great example. Tons of folks were making these and Fox really did not care, until they licensed the design to a company that was going to make them, then they came down quickly on all the individuals making them. Ultimately anyone can sell those hats, the design itself is not protected, however, they can't legally refer to them as Jayne hats or firefly hats, or anything else since those are protected.

Lets also remember that this is not just theft of IP. Kevin was not positioning this as 'fan art' (and not that it would fly under that either given the large profit component -- despite his 'non profit' BS). He clearly stated he had the license and took money under false pretense. He further talked about examples of him working with Fox on approvals, which was additional fraudulent statements about the legality of what he was doing.

As far as how many machines are out there. We know he had purchased sufficient parts for 10 machines (as he took great pride in showing photos of the parts). It is unclear how many cabinets were made (6?) -- although easy enough for him to buy 'blank cabinets' and put the artwork on) and how many playfields I believe spooky was doing the playfields, so they know how many were made and that is likely the biggest determination in how many of these might exist.

Since he did get a C&D from Fox, if he still went ahead and sold these, and depending on the quantity, that could certainly piss them off enough to go after him. However, it is the buyers who sue that will likely be the ones that cause him pain (although won't be enough pain to satisfy them).

#9742 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

And why is nobody going bat sh.t crazy over all the people that create pinball toppers and other mods using copyrighted IP? It's everywhere.

Go and make something with Disney IP or Star Wars and list it on eBay and watch how fast you get a C&D. Or take a Gottlieb manual to a copy machine to make manuals for sale and you will hear from Steve Young pretty darn quick.

People have a lot of money into IP and are protective.

#9743 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I sued Kevin in small claims court back in May. I won

Be sure to go back and pay the extra money to have your judgement docketed.
that puts it in the records, and any time he tries to apply for a loan or sell real
property the judgement must be satisfied before the transaction comes through.

At least that's the civil process here in good ol' minnesnowta.
Hard to get blood from a turnip

13
#9744 3 years ago

Did someone mention Pinrebel has a relationship to Kevin? Beyond that, I find his vocal stance in favor of selling the game coupled with him being new of the scene here perplexing. Not, however, as perplexing as the fascination with all things predator and Michigan for sale ads. Aren't Kevin And pinchili both from Michigan? I guess pinrebel can't be them since his profile lists Massachusetts.

image.jpg
image.jpg

20
#9745 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinpast:

Be sure to go back and pay the extra money to have your judgement docketed.
that puts it in the records, and any time he tries to apply for a loan or sell real
property the judgement must be satisfied before the transaction comes through.
At least that's the civil process here in good ol' minnesnowta.
Hard to get blood from a turnip

Yep. I'm making arrangements. I've been in contact with the court. I have to go back to Michigan for the next phase. Kevin's just hoping I won't drive back to Michigan. But I will. Oh Kevin, you were charged for my expenses the first time, and I'll ask the court to do it again on this next visit.

#9746 3 years ago

Enaud,

I would also pull title on his house. If its in his name, then you can put a lien against it. If he ever tries to sell the house or even re-finance (assuming Bank checks title) then you will get paid (In Canada anyway).....

#9747 3 years ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

Enaud,
I would also pull title on his house. If its in his name, then you can put a lien against it. If he ever tries to sell the house or even re-finance (assuming Bank checks title) then you will get paid (In Canada anyway).....

Thanks. Been there done that. Title is in his wife's name only.

#9748 3 years ago

I just saw that.....Clearly there was some planning here to provide him with creditor protection. Best of luck and keep after him...

#9749 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

You do not get to keep them.
For example, if you buy a stereo at a pawn shop that was stolen, the police will take the stereo from you and the thief will owe you the price you paid in restitution. The pawn shop will also get in trouble because there are laws around how they treat items.
Ignorance is a good defense to keep yourself from being charged, but you still are out the money and the item unless the thief actually pays you.

Will you people stop conflating theft with infringement of IP? You end up sounding like you take legal advice from a record company.

The rules about stolen property have absolutely nothing to do with the rules around stolen IP. Yes, I know - both result in losses to the owner, but they are fundamentally different under the law.

No, they can't take the pin from the buyer just because it infringes IP. They CAN smack Kevin around even harder for having sold something with the appropriated IP, and they can use the sale as evidence of Kevin's disregard for IP laws. But the pin itself is NOT stolen property.

#9750 3 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Pinrebel has a relationship to Kevin

Would love to get an IP check on that

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