(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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#13651 2 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

YES!!! I was wondering this also. How, where and who got this discharge order produced and signed off on?

At the end of the recording, it sounded like Keith was going to write up an order for the judge to sign to compel Kevin to produce documentation by 2/17 (however, I may have misunderstood since it was a logistical discussion that went back & forth a little bit)

Maybe something changed?

Is there anything new in PACER?

#13652 2 years ago
Quoted from Vyzer2:

Yeah but at some point he has to rule in the favor of the trustees that he hasn't proven he has no assets, which I would imagine would result in a noncompliance and a sentence would have to be offered.
Edit: What do I know. Just an observer of these justice proceedings.

The attorney on the phone did mention that they were looking into the possibility of criminal proceedings, but that would be in a different court (one assumes).

#13653 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

At the end of the recording, it sounded like Keith was going to write up an order for the judge to sign to compel Kevin to produce documentation by 2/17 (however, I may have misunderstood since it was a logistical discussion that went back & forth a little bit)
Maybe something changed?
Is there anything new in PACER?

I understand it to be after the court hearing... Kevin accepted the trustee's settlement proposal and then the order we saw in pacer was the judge accepting and entering the order.

So midweek the trustee made the offer... Friday we had the court hearing we all heard... and after Kevin changed his underwear they must have accepted the trustees offer... and then the order to basically stop the bankruptcy request was entered.

#13654 2 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

The attorney on the phone did mention that they were looking into the possibility of criminal proceedings, but that would be in a different court (one assumes).

If the trustee uncovers illegal behavior, etc... they turn those findings over to the appropriate procesutors and they decide if they will pursue a case.

The lawyer on the phone basically said 'we have seen stinky stuff, I can't make any statement on if charges will be pursued... but we are OBLIGATED to report any signs of illegal activity they find'

And he stressed that

#13655 2 years ago

at the 1 hour mark the lawyer asked about mike magyari.. i know him too..

he is actually a cool guy, he has a lot of pinballmachines.. ive stayed there even a couple of years ago.
he has a big house full of pinballmachines! so yeah he probably traded games with him,.. very very likely.

15
#13656 2 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Starting at the one hour mark was pure gold. Loved Keith's laser-like precision in asking the important questions and how he left Kevin speechless and stuttering to come up with, "I don't know" and "I believe so..."

Whenever a witness, under oath, uses the phrase "I believe," that witness is
hedging. Often, I hear lay witnesses utilize that phrase, during jury trials. Typically, I remind the jurors, during summation, that their important role in the trial is to be the finders of FACT and that belief is not fact. Another "tell" of hedging is when a witness uses the phrase "I'll be honest with you" or "To tell you the truth." A witness, on the stand, has been sworn to testify honestly. There is no need to underscore selective testimony with those introductory assurances of veracity. The witness does so subconsciously because he/she is about to launch a lie.

#13657 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Is that the guy that owns an arcade in MI? The one that Kevin had a prototype predator at for a short bit back in the day?
Can't remember the name of the place off the top of my head.

that is mike magyari and yes he owns the Arcade in MI.

#13658 2 years ago
Quoted from ZNET:

. Another "tell" of hedging is when a witness uses the phrase "I'll be honest with you" or "To tell you the truth." A witness, on the stand, has been sworn to testify honestly. There is no need to underscore selective testimony with those introductory assurances of veracity. The witness does so subconsciously because he/she is about to launch a lie.

You've been watching too many YouTube videos. Those phrases mean different things in different context to different speakers and are not reliable indicators of truth or lies.
If you're treating them as such in a court you should stop, educate yourself, and do your best to correct the mistakes you've caused by injecting your non-scientific personal bias into a court proceeding.

23
#13659 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If the trustee uncovers illegal behavior, etc... they turn those findings over to the appropriate procesutors and they decide if they will pursue a case.
The lawyer on the phone basically said 'we have seen stinky stuff, I can't make any statement on if charges will be pursued... but we are OBLIGATED to report any signs of illegal activity they find'
And he stressed that

Just for clarification, the term "trustee" can get a little confusing in bankruptcy, because often two parties in a bankruptcy case will carry the word "trustee" in their job title.

On Kevin's bankruptcy case, there are actually three different lawyers working directly or indirectly on behalf of creditors:

1) Sean M. Cowley, Trial Attorney for the U.S. Trustee
2) Randall L. Frank, Chapter 7 Trustee
3) Kieth M. Nathanson, Special Litigation Counsel for the Chapter 7 Trustee

----------

1) The United States Trustee ("U.S. Trustee" or "UST") is different than the Chapter 7 Trustee assigned to the bankruptcy case.

In Chapter 7 cases, the U.S. Trustee acts like a parliamentarian for the overall bankruptcy process, litigating issues that affect the integrity of the bankruptcy system. For example:

a) Arguing that granting the debtor a bankruptcy discharge would constitute a "substantial abuse" of the bankruptcy process;
b) Taking legal action to enforce the requirements of the Bankruptcy Code and to prevent fraud and abuse; and
c) Referring matters for investigation and criminal prosecution when appropriate.

Not surprisingly, in light of the above, the Office of the U.S. Trustee is actually part of the U.S. Department of Justice.

https://www.justice.gov/ust/bankruptcy-fact-sheets/us-trustees-role-consumer-bankruptcy-cases
https://www.justice.gov/ust/about-program

Sean M. Cowley, the Trial Attorney for the U.S. Trustee, was the attorney on the phone at yesterday's hearing. Sean's practice focuses on §727 denial of discharge litigation, Chapter 9 issues and litigation, §707(a) dismissals for bad faith, attorney misconduct issues under §526, criminal referrals and prosecutions for bankruptcy-related crimes, and appeals at both the district court and circuit court levels.

Given Sean's key role in drafting the Stipulation that Kevin signed after the hearing, agreeing to the denial of a bankruptcy discharge of Kevin's pre-petition debt, Sean has been effectively working indirectly on behalf of the creditors.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-m-cowley-a3437912

----------

2) Randall L. Frank is the Chapter 7 Trustee for this case. Mr. Frank is one of the Chapter 7 panel trustees covering the Eastern District of Michigan. He is based in Bay City, Michigan, and was assigned, on a blind rotation basis, to Kevin's case. Mr. Frank is working directly to maximize proceeds for Kevin's creditors, but wasn't a visible player at the last two hearings, because he was represented by Keith Nathanson at the hearing. (Mr. Frank successfully petitioned the court for Keith's appointment as his Special Litigation Counsel.)

----------

3) Keith M. Nathanson was appointed by Judge Opperman to work for Mr. Frank (Chapter 7 Trustee) as the Trustee's Special Litigation Counsel. Keith was appointed to this role based on his prior knowledge of Kevin's financials from his pre-petition litigation on behalf of some of the SkitB creditors.

http://www.nathanson-law.com/

----------

All three of these attorneys are playing a key role for creditors, whether visible or behind-the-scenes, and their work to date has been commendable.

#13660 2 years ago

So is it my understanding from listening to that audio that an unknown amount of Predator money ended up possibly being paid to the mythbusters, as part of their license?

31
#13661 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

You've been watching too many YouTube videos. Those phrases mean different things in different context to different speakers and are not reliable indicators of truth or lies.
If you're treating them as such in a court you should stop, educate yourself, and do your best to correct the mistakes you've caused by injecting your non-scientific personal bias into a court proceeding.

I'm not sure why your post is so caustic in tone. Also, I'm not certain whether you're denying the existence of "tells" in the universe of human interaction.

My post is based upon 33 years as a trial attorney, countless law seminars in the field of cross-examination and also upon relevant psychological studies of human behavior, not upon Youtube videos, as you oddly suggest. It's also important to understand that truth-seeking is both a science AND and an art. If it was merely a matter of science, polygraphs would be dispositive (and they are, of course, not). Thus, I respectfully disagree with your premise.

"Personal bias" is precisely the issue. The witnesses, the jurors, the lawyers and the judge all have it. I have it and you have it. I use mine consciously in an effort to separate fiction from fact. I'm always open to learning. Perhaps you can post some source material to support your unsupported assertion?

Naturally, context is important and some people use those phrases for reasons unrelated to an effort to deceive. But, we're not discussing the use of those phrases outside of a courtroom.

This is the Predator thread. Kevin Kulek just testified under oath. There's a link to that testimony which was posted yesterday. In this thread, the context is a court proceeding, in which Mr. Kulek was under oath. Are you suggesting that the debtor's use of "I believe" in his transparently evasive answers was something other than hedging? If so, please explain.

#13662 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

So is it my understanding from listening to that audio that an unknown amount of Predator money ended up possibly being paid to the mythbusters, as part of their license?

That's what my understanding is as well.

The missing pages of that contract probably shed some light on it.

#13663 2 years ago

Oh another great listen!!!

Seems like he spent all the monies on Credit Union print outs

#13664 2 years ago

Wow, a drinking game could be made of "I do/don't belive so". One would think he would remember with certainty on well, anything. No job, no money, yet he's got this house, RV, hmm. Stories aren't adding up. Money seems to be really poorly laundered.

Best non-podcast podcast everywhere.

#13665 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

That's the highest rate I've ever heard. I hope he kept the receipt so it can be verified.

I always like the "Copies are available for 10¢ per page" line where I work. Like anyone ever uses personal funds. I see people running off hundreds of flyers for fundraisers, kid's events, pinball sho... oops.

#13666 2 years ago
Quoted from jasonp:

If you watch Kevin on the youtube video he seems to remember things vividly.... Now his memory is shot.

We call that "Selective Amnesia" where I work.

#13667 2 years ago
Quoted from merccat:

I did find his job skills part pretty depressing. I'm sure he has some computer skills (and he clearly sees himself as having that too), but hasn't the faintest clue how to develop that into an actual marketable skill.
Year ago, I was there, in a dead end job knowing I had the ability (having been coding since i was in 8th grade), but it wasn't marketable. It took at least two full years of hard dedicated studying algorithm design, application architecture, business problem solving, along with wrapping my head around concepts like inversion of control, dependency injection and clean coding practices....
I guess my point it that it takes more than ability.... it takes dedication and drive... I don't see him having either, which is just a sad waste of an ability... and that I find slightly depressing.

Meh, he can always be a route operator of pinball, video and redemption equipment.

#13668 2 years ago

Once the Judge started to talk about his own dad and the work he did in the old factories, I realized this Judge did not come from a well off family and is a hard working individual. Good for the Judge to be where he is today and taking the time to clean up our country with a gavel.

31
#13669 2 years ago

So if we summarize revelations in the hearing:

- kevin took in 500k but has no records of expenses
- kevin has no money but spent 4800 on copies of bank statements
- kevin admitted to buying 5 laptops for $80 each but it was an Internet sale and has no receipt
- kevin denies that he bought his mom an RV
- kevin admits he signed house over to his wife
- kevin denies running a route
- kevin probably sold or traded pinball games to Mike M but doesn't remember specifics
- kevin has predator inventory in a trailer at his wife's house
- kevin held a delivery job that was seasonal delivering weed around xmas
- kevin is good at computers
- kevin submitted paragraph 24 for his dangerous games pin but not the rest of the contract
- kevin likes pizza
- kevin has printouts of us miscreants who are making his life miserable
- kevins personal chauffeur is his mom
- kevin still owns a truck but doesn't drive it. I guess the weed bank provided a weed mobile
- Kevin has zero expenses...he lives off the land.
- Kevin doesn't remember how many bank accounts he had at wildfire credit union

I swear you cannot make this crap up

#13670 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

- kevin denies running a route

I believe he denies "currently" running a route.

#13671 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

So if we summarize revelations in the hearing:
- kevin took in 500k but has no records of expenses
- kevin has no money but spent 4800 on copies of bank statements
- kevin admitted to buying 5 laptops for $80 each but it was an Internet sale and has no receipt
- kevin denies that he bought his mom an RV
- kevin admits he signed house over to his wife
- kevin denies running a route
- kevin probably sold or traded pinball games to Mike M but doesn't remember specifics
- kevin has predator inventory in a trailer at his wife's house
- kevin held a delivery job that was seasonal delivering weed around xmas
- kevin is good at computers
- kevin submitted paragraph 24 for his dangerous games pin but not the rest of the contract
- kevin likes pizza
- kevin has printouts of us miscreants who are making his life miserable
- kevins personal chauffeur is his mom
- kevin still owns a truck but doesn't drive it. I guess the weed bank provided a weed mobile
- Kevin has zero expenses...he lives off the land.
- Kevin doesn't remember how many bank accounts he had at wildfire credit union
I swear you cannot make this crap up

Good summary, pllus Kevin Kulek doesn't like to keep paper records. He didn't mention this specifically, but I have a hunch.

13
#13672 2 years ago

So when's this shit going to go down with John Popadiuk?

#13673 2 years ago

Did I also hear there was a charge for Netflix in there with the Pizza? Sounds like the start of a pretty good weekend.

14
#13674 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

- kevin probably sold or traded pinball games to Mike M but doesn't remember specifics

Just to be clear... not me!

#13675 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

So is it my understanding from listening to that audio that an unknown amount of Predator money ended up possibly being paid to the mythbusters, as part of their license?

So the last time I spoke with Jamie, I actually asked him about that. From what he said the contract was based on royalties--not an up-front cost--as they just thought it was cool to be involved with a pinball machine. He was bummed it didn't work out. Whether they got paid for anything else like the show appearance I didn't ask, but it didn't sound like money was a motivating factor.

#13676 2 years ago

I apologize if you felt attacked by the tone of my post. Nothing personal was intended, just vigorous disagreement.

Quoted from ZNET:

I'm not certain whether you're denying the existence of "tells" in the universe of human interaction.

I am not. I am saying you have failed to prove tells are a reliable indicator of truth or lies.

Quoted from ZNET:

My post is based upon 33 years as a trial attorney, countless law seminars in the field of cross-examination and also upon relevant psychological studies of human behavior, not upon Youtube videos, as you oddly suggest. It's also important to understand that truth-seeking is both a science AND and an art. If it was merely a matter of science, polygraphs would be dispositive (and they are, of course, not). Thus, I respectfully disagree with your premise.

Thank you, that is much more informative than your previous post that I responded to. The problem remains though. You say you're accepting tells as reliable indicators of truth or lies without good evidence to do so. You should stop. In a court the stakes are much higher than punishing your granddaughter for taking an extra cookie. You should base your decisions on good evidence. If you have good evidence that tells are a reliable indicator of truth or lies please share it.

Quoted from ZNET:

Perhaps you can post some source material to support your unsupported assertion?

You've made the unsupported assertion that tells are a reliable indicator of truth or lies. We'll keep the burden of proof on you to support it. Until you do, I reject your premise.

Quoted from ZNET:

Kevin Kulek just testified under oath. There's a link to that testimony which was posted yesterday. In this thread, the context is a court proceeding, in which Mr. Kulek was under oath. Are you suggesting that the debtor's use of "I believe" in his transparently evasive answers was something other than hedging? If so, please explain.

I'll simply note that the judge did not incarcerate Mr. Kulek. He heard the same tells you did and probably saw others. And the judge did not hear or see enough evidence of lying to punish Mr. Kulek - yet.

#13677 2 years ago

So...I see someone paid $4,750 in total for a limited edition machine that was in development. With the current prices of NIB LE's, was this considered an investment for you guys that paid the pirate? Just wondering if you thought this was the next BBB game.

#13678 2 years ago

@ 59:32
"Mr. Nathanson do you want to ask the questions?"

Keith:

my_body_is_ready (resized).png

#13679 2 years ago
Quoted from MotorCityMatt:

So...I see someone paid $4,750 in total for a limited edition machine that was in development. With the current prices of NIB LE's, was this considered an investment for you guys that paid the pirate? Just wondering if you thought this was the next BBB game.

How is this relevant? And how could the current price of LE's have any bearing on what people spent 4 years ago?

-5
#13680 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

How is this relevant? And how could the current price of LE's have any bearing on what people spent 4 years ago?

Had the games been built and delivered for the advertised price, they would have appreciated in value even better that BBB did.

#13681 2 years ago

If Kevin doesn't produce records on how much he may have paid Adam and/or Jamie for the EOD license would that mean they could be subpoenaed?

#13682 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Had the games been built and delivered for the advertised price, they would have appreciated in value even better that BBB did.

I think stern 'the pin' and Costco BDK would like to have a word with you

Low volume alone won't create desirability and drive up prices

#13683 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

If Kevin doesn't produce records on how much he may have paid Adam and/or Jamie for the EOD license would that mean they could be subpoenaed?

The bankruptcy case is basically over. Now we wait till it wraps up and we go back to the civil suit.

But as we see... Kevin is already setup to try to avoid collection against him. He doesn't hold a regular job... he holds very little in his name...

Let's just hope he's screwed things up enough that we can get some renewed interest in the criminal side

#13684 2 years ago

As Kevin has signed over his house etc to his wife, does this mean that, if he gets divorced, he gets nothing?

#13685 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

I apologize if you felt attacked by the tone of my post. Nothing personal was intended, just vigorous disagreement.

I am not. I am saying you have failed to prove tells are a reliable indicator of truth or lies.

Thank you, that is much more informative than your previous post that I responded to. The problem remains though. You say you're accepting tells as reliable indicators of truth or lies without good evidence to do so. You should stop. In a court the stakes are much higher than punishing your granddaughter for taking an extra cookie. You should base your decisions on good evidence. If you have good evidence that tells are a reliable indicator of truth or lies please share it.

You've made the unsupported assertion that tells are a reliable indicator of truth or lies. We'll keep the burden of proof on you to support it. Until you do, I reject your premise.

I'll simply note that the judge did not incarcerate Mr. Kulek. He heard the same tells you did and probably saw others. And the judge did not hear or see enough evidence of lying to punish Mr. Kulek - yet.

Could I just commend you both on the way in which you're having this discussion? The respectful and argumentative way in which you're getting to the bottom of your disagreement is a welcome change from what seems to be the online norm. Thank you both for staying classy!

#13686 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballs:

As Kevin has signed over his house etc to his wife, does this mean that, if he gets divorced, he gets nothing?

That's possible, but there are many arranged divorces that are made in order to get around certain issues like this. Having kids together is one of the reasons to get a divorce on paper but continue living together, raising the kids, fcuking, etc.

#13687 2 years ago

Maybe I've missed it, but is there any reason why the records and documents Kevin refuses to produce haven't already been subpoenaed?

Also, does anyone else love the judge as much as me?

#13688 2 years ago

Despite the fact many of us would like to see some custodial time for Kevin, I have nothing but admiration for the judge's fairness, decency and professionalism. Justice is truly being seen to be done.

#13689 2 years ago

Keith stated this:

Quoted from KeithinMI:

not until the automatic stay (11 USC 362) is lifted or terminated.

In response to this:

Quoted from Compy:

Other motions to collect on the debt in civil court will likely continue.

Can someone comment on this? Is this stay a normal thing when something like a bankruptcy discharge happens? Why was there a stay that prevents collection of the debt in civil court? It seems like the expectation is that it will be lifted and then his assets will be pursued in civil court. Or am I not understanding this correctly?

The US attorney seemed to think aspects of the case seemed fraudulent, but that probably pertained to the bankruptcy petition and not necessarily anything criminal on other fronts. But as others have mentioned, it makes you wonder if the possibility of criminal charges might be reconsidered now that more details have been drawn out.

#13690 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

Maybe I've missed it, but is there any reason why the records and documents Kevin refuses to produce haven't already been subpoenaed?
Also, does anyone else love the judge as much as me?

As I understand it, it is unusual to have to subpoena records in these cases, because the wannabe bankrupt is the one who wants to be made bankrupt (to discharge his debt), so usually is most cooperative and forthcoming. What is weird in this case is that Kevin requested and started the bankruptcy proceedings, then refused to cooperate with it and behaved negligently and unprofessionally. As a result, he has already lost the discharge request (the whole point of him starting this process!), so is liable for the lot. Also, as he didn't bother to set up an LLC he is personally liable for the lot.

If he doesn't comply now then they will subpoena for the records, but wouldn't normally need to, plus there is a cost and delay in so doing. If it becomes a criminal case in a later, new action (as is likely), then I imagine subpoenas are more standard practice.

I think that summarises it. Very bizarre, and shows how Kevin is not only a conman (allegedly), but a stupid one to boot.

#13691 2 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

Keith stated this:

In response to this:

Can someone comment on this? Is this stay a normal thing when something like a bankruptcy discharge happens? Why was there a stay that prevents collection of the debt in civil court? It seems like the expectation is that it will be lifted and then his assets will be pursued in civil court. Or am I not understanding this correctly?
The US attorney seemed to think aspects of the case seemed fraudulent, but that probably pertained to the bankruptcy petition and not necessarily anything criminal on other fronts. But as others have mentioned, it makes you wonder if the possibility of criminal charges might be reconsidered now that more details have been drawn out.

Had the bankruptcy case discharged the debt, then by definition the debt proceedings would be terminated. As the debt is not discharged, these proceedings will presumably (eventually) re-start

#13692 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I believe he denies "currently" running a route.

What doesn't Kevin currently deny?

#13693 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

Maybe I've missed it, but is there any reason why the records and documents Kevin refuses to produce haven't already been subpoenaed?
Also, does anyone else love the judge as much as me?

In short, some/many have been subpoenaed and were in process for the civil case/s. However, when the Bankruptcy was filed it puts a stay on the civil matters and we had to waste more $ and time proving that our debts could not be discharged. In bankruptcy, the onus is on KK to provide the records and not the trustee, but as I understand it they were beating around the pinata and things kept falling out, lol.

There are both people and businesses that will be brought in for deposition once things pick back up on the civil cases is my guess.

#13694 2 years ago

Once the painful process of extracting information from Kevin, as if from an itinerant but hopelessly naughty child, ends, the tax implications of all this will be fascinating.

Sadly for creditors, the IRS will presumably have first dibs on Kevin's assets, such as they are.

Personally, however, I just want to see this alleged fraudster prosecuted and sued to the full extent of the law. It's not about the money, it's about justice for the pinball community, although getting some dosh back would be nice, of course.

#13695 2 years ago

Indeed. I would hope someone involved has blown the whistle, pulled a string,
choked a chicken, for the IRS to look into....

#13696 2 years ago

What are the next steps?

#13697 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

At a minimum you can check the box for "Unreported Income" and "Failure to Withhold Tax". You just mail it in after filling it out.

and it would be appreciated if at this junction, nobody does that.

Let the pinheads go after the funds first. The IRS can and will step in at some point, but I see no reason to force them at this stage.

#13698 2 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

Maybe I've missed it, but is there any reason why the records and documents Kevin refuses to produce haven't already been subpoenaed?

Yes.

Quoted from HighProtein:

What doesn't Kevin currently deny?

The follow-up question (besides the one asking if he had a Proxy operating a Route for him) should have been: "Have you ever operated a traditional Amusement and/or Redemption machine route"?

#13699 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

and it would be appreciated if at this junction, nobody does that.
Let the pinheads go after the funds first. The IRS can and will step in at some point, but I see no reason to force them at this stage.

Hmm....no offense, but didn't everyone get their panties in a wad when one party went after their funds first without notifying the second party? Seems a bit of Deja Vu. Granted, there is no love lost for the IRS, and I agree with you Hilton...no need to involve them at this juncture. But if people are going to take the high ground, need to apply the rules consistently.

#13700 2 years ago

If you guys get some money back, then the IRS decides that part of it should have gone to them, you don't think they will come after you for it?

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