(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

4 years ago

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  • Latest reply 19 days ago by Mr68
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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#1424 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That is Kevin being clear that nobody is getting screwed and he will be sure all 250 preorder people are taken care of. I have no idea anymore what that will actually be, but I still trust him to make it right with either a game or deposits returned.

That is easy for *you* to say when your game is among the first ten sitting in pieces at their place. What about the other 240 people who ordered a Predator and would like to actually get one?

#1441 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Who is the magic man with all this inside scoop before everyone else?

That would be Kevin.

#1482 4 years ago

Summary(?): Had the license, lost it (time ran out?), are trying to regain it, and will know success/fail within 2 weeks.

#1506 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Never lost anything.

They "lost" every reference to Predator they had on the internet, so something changed, even if it was simply being reminded about terms.

#1776 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

BBB was $4500 from Gene.
Also many of us believe Gene exaggerated his loss and may have really broken even or made a little.

I think Gene *could* have made the game for 4500, but there were mistakes made along the way that ballooned costs. I do think he lost money when all was said and done.

#1780 4 years ago

So just throwing this out there.. it maybe looks like the only thing holding Predator back might be finances </assumption>. You can buy just about any license with enough cash. So, if in a week we hear that Predator is absolutely a go... but at 6K a pop or thereabouts, how many would still be in?

#2043 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

And looking for answers here doesn't help when everyone on the sidelines and with no actual money tied up in this is waiting with baited breath to shout "OMG I TOLD YOU SO, BWAHAHAHAHA, I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG AND YOU ALL ARE SO STUPID" at us. I'm already taking bets as to who will start the first "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread if this all does go to shit.

I think you're completely misinterpreting many people's posts. I absolutely do not get that above vibe from most of the posts you quoted. Please, direct your anger at those who lied to you and stole your money, and not those who are simply commenting on the CURRENT clusterf*ck situation. Also, please do not let a bad preorder cause you to give up playing pinball - just don't preorder any more. Easy to say, I know... but remember, only two people out of thousands have caused you harm. Please stick around

#2046 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Disagree.. Everyone is prebuilt with biases. Some like to speculate, some like to watch things burn, rarely is anyone impartial about anything. Unless the so called outside people have inside information (facts), they are speculating just like everyone else..

First, bias and speculation are two completely different things. Of course everyone is speculating - that is all anyone can do in the absence of hard facts. However, it's pretty easy to be unbiased. I tried Pred a year ago - the theme and gameplay were good but not enough to interest me in buying, so I passed. The equivalent of a shoulder-shrug. I am biased in that I want people to get what hey paid for, and that I'd like Predators to be made so they're out there to play, but that's about it. I know no one involved personally, so it's definitely outside-looking-in here.

I think some poor souls here believe anyone who is not 'on board' is somehow against the project succeeding, and they could not be more wrong. *DISCUSSING* the current bad state is NOT encouraging failure, it's just discussing reality. Skit-B are the only people who can fix the situation.

#2048 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

"...but you had to have known the risk monetarily supporting a completely unproven startup company right?"...
Everybody with that 20/20 hindsight...

Anytime you hand someone thousands of dollars for something that is not yet built, you're taking a risk. This is not an 'accusation' or 'making fun' or hindsight - it's simple fact. I did exactly that when I wrote Gene a check for 2250 back in 2004. I wrote that expecting I had a 2/3 chance of getting the game, but I knew there was significant risk involved. So did everyone else - that's why Gene only sold 170 or so preorders.

I think the success of Gene, and then WOZ may have conditioned people to believe pinball preorders weren't as risky as they seem, which is unfortunate. Gene was this --><-- close to failing, but pulled it out of his ass thanks to his net worth.

#2049 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

It seems the 20 pinsiders that thumbed up her post got that above vibe as well.
Disclaimer: I am of the 20.

Would anyone actually thumbs-down that post?

#2059 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

I don't know what the truth is, I don't know who to believe, I don't have any idea what is going on, and nobody that actually does is willing to step up and give details.

Whysnow, you're buddies with Kevin, reasonably close geographically, and he's supposedly building your game right now. Why don't you go on a recon mission to his place tonight and get some facts for everyone else?

#2066 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I don't know Kevin aside form my interactions with SkitB, you may need to reference a map as MI is a bit of a drive from WI, and I do beleive that the first batch of 10 is in some stage of production as we have seen parts to back this up.

When you make statements like this:

Quoted from Whysnow:

Can we please stop with the BS licensing talk? It has already been debunked. While SkitB may suck at communication they have made it clear that their are no issues with the license. There were even some sick Pinhead detectives from TX that claimed to have contacted FOX months ago and they have not come back here with anything (try as they might to cause more harm). This is a limited licensed game and it is progressing with poor online communication. At this point there is not much else to talk about

...it appears you have inside information and/or are close to Kevin and have information that others do not. If this is NOT the case, WHY did you state the above as fact?!? "This is a limited license game and it is progressing" leaves no room for ambiguity. People read this stuff and assume all is well, and that is very bad, as we see from BT's predicament.

Quoted from rai:

I heard Ted say several months ago also that there was no problem with the license and he just reiterated that a week ago. Ted obviously communicated with Kevin. I don't know why we need a go between.

So maybe Ted can do the recon mission?? So many people with facts, but the one guy who matters is completely MIA....

#2078 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

-Licensed game because well it obviously has IP all over it and we have been told by SkitB a few times that they have the liscence. This is not "scary jungle creature pinball" but "Predator". That is the difference between liscensed and not. You may choose to beleive that there is no liscence/ expired liscence/ incomplete liscence, but from what I have been told by SkitB numerous times is that there is a liscensed game and as recent as last week this was confirmed yet again

This is the problem - you're taking them at their word and parroting it as fact. There has been plenty of evidence ever since "the wipe" that this is NOT fact. Let Kevin state as fact they have the license. Your cheerleading for the project isn't doing anyone any favors. I feel bad for you and Ted - SkitB has left you out to dry it appears...

#2129 4 years ago

poor girl loses weight with ever step!

#2223 4 years ago

Here's your update, pulled directly out of my a$$ but I bet it's closer to the truth than anything else:

Kevin and crew don't have the license. They can't get the license. They spent a lot of the money and are stuck with a bunch of parts they cannot use and preorders they cannot build or refund. They are spending these two weeks furiously trying to rework the theme and game into something that kicks ass, BUT is unlicensed, hoping enough people will want to stay on board and buy it that they can refund those who are not interested. We will get an update when the game is sufficiently changed to be able to be shown publicly.

That's my call. Anyone got a better theory?

Oh, and here's the obligatory boobs:

#2811 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Please stay the F*CK out of it. You are not a pre-owner and you have absolutely no business trying to stick yourself into a matter at this level that does not pertain to you and has none of your skin in the game. I know you like to be in the middle of everything, but this is one area where you have absolutely no business inserting yourself and it is preposterous for you to even suggest it. You do not and will never speak on my behalf.

Your cheerleading and repeated reassurances may have convince some people into staying in this mess well past its due date. Maybe it's best if YOU step aside for once and let others try to clean up.

#2826 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anything (presuming you think there is no longer enough money to refund 100% to all) I would say those demaning a full refund now are the ones being selfish. You are asking for all your $$$ back now even if it means less money back for others later...

Just gotta quote this again ... man, you can't make this shit up LOL

SO if you actually get one of those ten games in Kevin's kitchen, will you sell it and distribute the proceeds to those who didn't get games or full refunds??

#2865 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Enlighten us. For $5,000 what is Predator better than? Lots of old pins you could get they are much better and proven. This pin is just blah.

You exited stage-left 2 pages ago. Why are you back?

#2965 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

You'd be amazed how much information you have to provide when you register things, things like websites and that.... And especially how easy it is to lookup that public information online.

Yup, surprised no one else has thought of this... and surprised Kevin didn't use an anonymous service to hide his registrar details.

#3063 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

At that point onward he has not spent very much on games and shows have been very limited

Do you know this like you knew the license was fine? Seriously, is this a WAG or actual knowledge behind it?

#3210 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

If you want to talk with Kevin, all of his info is listed on any website that tells you the registrant info for websites (I.e. Skitbpinball.com). Apparently I get banned by posting the direct link to public information on this site....
But he's only stolen ~$5k from me and many other people here, so fcuk me, Amirite mods?!?

Really... you got banned for posting a WHOIS link?

Please, mods... understand what is public information. Kevin COULD have hidden that info easily using his registrar's anonymizing service, but he did not. ANYONE can look it up by visiting a registrar whois page and inputting skitbpinball.com (and solving a CAPTCHA)

This is not an attempt to criticize whomever banned him, rather an attempt to educate. Banning over completely public information is... odd.

#3217 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Whether the information is public or not, it's still a violation of the Pinside community rules to post it on the forum...

Here is the section in question:

"It is not acceptable to publicise anyone else's contact details other than your own, and any such instant messaging details, email addresses, postal addresses or telephone numbers will be removed from Postings. However, it is acceptable to include general contact details for companies, for example, but you must only include publicly available details, such as the address of a restaurant, or the email address for customer support for a company."

It would seem that posting a LINK to a WHOIS page that still requires the user to input a CAPTCHA does not violate this rule as it is written. No one is publicizing any of Kevins details on Pinside. Also, SKIT-B is a COMPANY and has a commercial webpage. Un-hidden WHOIS data on commercial webpages for company is "publicly available details..." how is this different from the restaurant example above?

#3224 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

I'm just catching up, but I'm guessing they edited your post (to remove the link) which auto-sends a response to you

I didn't post it, the other fella did.

Quoted from blondetall:

It IS personal information, which we do not allow per community rules, and we don't want to be responsible for a pitchfork-wielding mob showing up at his house. Then again, it is listed under his business details, which we do allow to be posted. I believe it was decided for now that just the link itself would be removed. However, since everyone has posted exactly where to find the info and what to search, it is not secret information.

I certainly understand the mob-avoidance mentality. I think the lesson here is for people to make use of registrar proxy services for their websites, unless they don't mind details available via WHOIS. As was mentioned, the very purpose of WHOIS is to make domain owner's details publicly available.

#3592 4 years ago
Quoted from absocountry2:

The weekend is here so we should not expect any information from SkitB until Monday

Why? It's not like he's a normal 8x5 business. He can update people anytime - I doubt they mind if it's on a weekend.

#4003 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Has anyone seen proof that Stern actually has the full IP rights for WWE?

Dude, it is WAY too early to be drinking whatever it is you're drinking.

#5483 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

You are standing in front of a large, deep pool of water. You don't know how to swim. A person you don't know tells you to jump in. You'll be fine they say. You jump in and after a few minutes drown. Who's fault is it?

Sounds like an infocom game. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

#5490 4 years ago
Quoted from pmWolf:

If we run to the masses and present the second (and third) hand forwarded anonymous emails as fact, and it turns out to be bogus....we killed a project for no reason.

Actually, no. Had Kevin had a legit license, he could have produced it upon release of the emails, and the project would have gone on no problem. If he didn't have a license, the project's dead regardless. Point being, Pinside couldn't have killed anything that wasn't already dead.

Sometimes, silence isn't golden. Keeping the emails secret, even with "the wipe" and all other evidence pointing to problems, probably wasn't the best idea, but hindsight is 20.20

#5586 4 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

So now the moderators have no responsibility or accountability to members here or is it just a selective responsibility applied every now and then?

Don't pick out the moderators specifically. It sounds like the majority of the anonymous-email recipients were so-called "immortals" anyway (still LOLing at that term in the article). There are no pinside rules to deal with anonymous tips, and I can see each and every mod filing those emails under "not my job." If you're going to complain of the secrecy, blame EVERYONE who got the emails, not just the pinside mods. I still think someone shoulda spilled the beans, considering all the other overwhelming evidence, but I'm certainly not gonna blame anyone for staying the F out of this mess.

#5746 4 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

I think some people are confused. Infringing a patent or other IPR is not a crime

This was posted an eternity ago, so I'm thinking others have corrected you by now, but if not, http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506 Yes, you can go to PMITAFP for copying stuff illegally.

#5748 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

I don't want to argue with WhySnow or anyone else anymore. This thread has brought out so much venom... and hate.

That dude pretty much disappeared from this thread. No one's arguing with him here anymore, so why bring it back up?

#5937 4 years ago

Regarding Kevin refunding people right now... how the heck is he supposed to know who has initiated chargebacks already, and who has not? Especially with paypal between him and the banks? If he refunds someone now who has just started a chargeback, or if some ass starts a chargeback AFTER getting a refund, that person will likely get paid twice and the funds run dry before everyone is taken care of. It's not practical to assume everyone who has started a chargeback will inform Kevin, nor is it practical to expect Kevin to keep all that information straight even if they did. The banks and/or Paypal will likely send notices to Kevin, but again, who expects him to actually keep track properly, after his prior incompetence?

I have a feeling no one is getting refunded for a good while. This is not any defense of Kevin or anything like that, just a neutral observation based on the current clusterfudge situation right now.

#5942 4 years ago
Quoted from pingod:

Ditto,I went through my CC company (MasterCard)
They were great,said I have a good dispute

Addendum to my original post - this might be what everyone has to do - just dispute and recover your funds on your own. I can't see Kevin being able to process any refunds when each day there are more people filing chargebacks. Those who paid by bank or money transfer will have to be refunded by Kevin manually. Threats of civil suit will hopefully expedite that process if necessary. If not, there may be enough money involved to interest a federal prosecutor and get things moving in criminal court.

#6143 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

I violated a rule with this?? huh? I feel like a child being preached to on what constitutes good manners. Seemed like a reasonable (and relevant) question to me to a person who is very experienced in licensing for pinball.

this thread is apparently on extra super secret probation

#6435 4 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

If you don't have them with you, you will be trespassing.

You won't be trespassing unless there are obvious signs posted, or you are asked to leave and refuse to do so.

2 weeks later
#7348 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

I think Pinside needs to do what Disqus did, and that's removing "Downvoting" as a whole.

This would be akin to actually cutting off Greg's left thumb. Whatever would he do??

2 months later
#9354 4 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

What really should be clarified is your involvement in a very similar site, hosting illegal hacks and recreations of games that are NOT on the okay list, like Metallica, for example, or any SAM system games, for that matter.

So.. the key difference between a site "hosting illegal hacks and recreations" and your vpforums.com is a simple "OK list"? A list that vpforums guys created based on criteria vpforums invented?

You're a nice guy but your comment above is so f'd up I can't even swallow it. There is NO difference between "your" site and others like it except a difference of opinion as to what is too old to pirate. And apparently the other guys don't charge for access.

#9357 4 years ago

Last bit on this from me..

Quoted from Coyote:

He specifically stated that he got the 'OK' from the legal folks holding copyrights. That is the 'ok' list.

He also stated they had the rights to do Pred cabinets...

Maybe he talked to Gary, but I can't imagine he's talked to the rights owners of every game ever made, so I'll just file his statement under "hyperbole" or maybe "wishful thinking" and stop derailing this thread. Good luck with the lawsuit folks!

2 months later
#9777 3 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Whoa ... sorry, no you cannot build 1 or 2 games using copyrighted material and sell it? ... where on earth did you come up with that interpretation of fair use? Read the fair use statutes, the minute you charge money for it (amongst other things), it's not even close to 'fair use'. If you use/create it for yourself and don't sell it, then most usually nobody cares ... but when it turns into $ and tangible goods for sale, then it's not fair use.

This begs the question... what exactly is one supposed to do with their unlicensed one-off game when they're tired of playing it? Wheel it to the curb? But then (technically) you're liable if someone steals it!

Fair use is not quite as cut and dried as you make it out to be here. First, if the game is created by and for one's self, it doesn't matter if "most usually nobody cares", fair use makes it absolutely legal. Selling the game would be iffy, but not automatically disqualify fair use, especially if the sale price reflects just the materials used to make the game. Trading it for another game would also be hard to prosecute... "Well, we're just going to trade back in a few years." What damages can you prove? Any copyright suit would go before a judge, who will .. well, judge whether the infringing piece was created to make profit, or simply as a fan project that someone's trying to get rid of. That Goonies pin is a perfect example.

#9825 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I always have pencils and paper in my vehicle. Pencils don't freeze and they always work.
In an emergency very handy for taking notes.
LTG : )™

They may not freeze, but they don't always work...


#9828 3 years ago

I only chew lead when I'm inhaling solder fumes.. Such a healthy hobby

#9915 3 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Note - just because (you) got ripped off, duped, whatever and did not recover anything - don't assume that's how anyone else rolls. I recover . I have started legal and other action against no less than 4 pinsiders.

How the hell do you manage to find all the bad apples?

9 months later
#11017 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

By that time, he had been to dozens of shows with it, so I assumed he had been vetted by show organizers, etc.

It is NOT the job of show organizers to "vet" their attendees. Just want to make that clear. Anyone can buy a table or booth at a show; their presence is not any kind of endorsement from the show organizers. Assuming someone is "legit" because they've been to a few shows is just being silly and lazy.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

I was 100% convinced he was legit, or I never would have gotten involved in the first place!

Hey, he fooled a lot of people. Including at least one lawyer. Guess he was a smooth talker. I will say he never convinced me he was legit, but it was irrelevant because I had no interest in the theme or the game anyway.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

I never took a dime from you or any of the "pre-owners". I worked hard to try to ensure everyone would get what they paid for. I definitely feel I deserve better treatment around here, as we have a lot to offer the community.

I think people are just ASSuming y'all got more from Kevin's deposit than you delivered back to him in cabs, and they want a piece of the difference. If you spent more money than you received in deposit, Kevin owes you like he does everyone else.

#11071 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

If you're a show organizer, and you put images of, in this case, Predator pinball on your programs and USE IT AS A DRAW to your show, you damn well better vet it. I know of at least two shows that paid for freight to get it to their shows and paid Kevin's expenses. Sounds more legit when you think of it like that, doesn't it? That's how I saw it.

You *built cabinets* for this clown, and thought he was legit. You expect a show promoter to do MORE homework and vetting than a supplier? Doesn't work that way. Shows always flog whomever and whatever is going to be there, and show promoters are not IP lawyers and should not be treated as such. I've seen Pacak prep for Expo, and the thought of him spending time calling various rights-holders to ensure all products mentioned are legit, is simply ridiculous.

I'm not blaming you for doing business with Kevin, but trying to slough off blame on show promoters is just wrong. You had MUCH more direct involvement with them than did any show, and you completely fell for their song and dance. Hell, maybe the show guys thought Kevin was legit because Virtuapin was doing work for them...

#11254 3 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

There needs to be a different term other than "favorited" for a thread of this type of subject matter.

Trainwrecked. When you don't like what's happenening, but can't stop watching. Can even stamp threads with an appropriate icon..


1 week later
#11487 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

I've been absolutely honest. I just feel there's a line to be drawn on just what's appropriate/inappropriate on a pinball forum, and asking for a company's specific financials is over the line, in my opinion.

You don't owe it to us, but you definitely owe it to predator buyers. VirtuaPin's silence is easily assumed to be "they got more money from Kevin than they delivered in cabs." I'm not saying you did, but that ASSumption is easy to make. Only way to dispel the rumors is with facts. I figure now that you're involved in the legal bits, it'll all eventually come out in court anyway.

#11490 3 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Do people really believe Kevin paid Paul more than he was owed?

No, but it's possible a payment was made for cabinets in advance, then the project fell apart before the cabs could be delivered. Remember, we're looking for a couple hundred thousand Gs.. not exactly pocket change. Where did it go? People have asked Virtuapin if they lost money on the deal, but I don't think that question was ever answered.

Quoted from rosh:

and given the damage to his reputation and the lack of return on his investment in time and money spent gearing up for, well nothing, he has been hurt by this as much anyone, and anger towards him is mis-placed.

I'm not angry with them at all, and I have no opinion about their financial dealings. Just saying that their lack of information is one of the main causes of speculation here.

#11493 3 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

He has indicated that all cabinets that were made were picked up by Kevin and as i said, hard to believe Kevin would not be trying to get back any money for items not delivered. Which I am sure would be the case with Terry or spooky or back alley as well.

This is true. I'm leaning towards thinking they neither lost nor made money.. they simply sold the first batch of cabs to kevin, got paid for them and that was that. Likely staying silent because the fact they got paid at all would be enough to piss off some of the angrier victims. Complete 'speculation from the peanut gallery' on my part, but hey, I don't watch TV because real life has just as much drama !

5 months later
#12644 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Wouldn't that be something if he "gives up" the two machines and then wins them back at an auction?

Quoted from sevenrites:

I wonder what the auction would end up bringing in for a Predator, if that ends up happening.

The machines will never make it to auction. They're unlicensed, remember? State (court) can't sell 'em. Fox *could* grant a license for just the two machines, making them legit and pretty valuable at auction (would help recoup money for preorder folks), but they have no reason to do so other than goodwill. Most likely the games will be surrendered to Fox and either be destroyed, or will wind up in some higher-ups' offices as curiosities.

#12652 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

He didn't try to reclaim them as IP violations, but as assets to be redistributed to creditors. And since they are one-offs and prototypes being liquidated instead of sold... I'm not sure if that changes things

Infringing is infringing regardless whether it's a one-off. INTENT is the key here - fair use provision in copyright law allows people to infringe for (generally) personal, non-commercial use. There are other allowances, but that is the one that applies here. Predator was built to be sold, for profit (although it was priced too cheaply to be profitable). Selling a game with Predator IP and no license is illegal under copyright law, period. The homebrew games we do see getting sold here and there fly well under the radar simply because there's only one or two of any particular title, and the sales are private. Predator was a completely different ballgame - high volume and public sales.

Quoted from Whysnow:

could he be found in contempt if ordered and refuses to comply?

Absolutely. Ignoring a judge == contempt in all but the rarest cases. Court orders are just that, orders.. not requests.

Quoted from sevenrites:

Maybe they could just part the machine(s) out so there's no completed one, but they could still auction off pieces of it that way money can still be raised to cover some restitution and legal fees.

Yep, this is what Keith is aiming at. Strip off the Pred IP and you still have a functioning game that has some value.

Quoted from shakenbake:

VPcabs(Vertigo creator) is in no way associated with Virtuapin.

Yea, VPCabs is down here in Cincinnati and was one of virtuapin's competitors. Great folks and a great business.. their work with Zen Pinball has drastically improved those simulations over the last couple years.

#12691 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

For those people saying the games couldn't be sold because there is no license, I'm not so sure that applies...
In the video game world, if the company making a game goes belly up before the game is complete. In liquidation from bankruptcy, the prototypes are sold, without the license to distribute. From my understanding, so long as the person buying doesn't assume the right to distribute additional copies of the games, it's fine.
If there is no chance of selling the assets, why claim them? They must have a value.

No, it wouldn't work.

You have to keep Fox in mind. Predator IP belongs to them, and them alone. Nothing can happen from these proceedings that would result in Fox taking any kind of loss. They never asked for this mess, and they never agreed to anything involving it. Anything Predator-related on those games is technically stolen property. A sale of *anything* involving Fox IP that Fox does not get compensated for is a loss for Fox. I'm sure there's some fancy legal term for it, but basically, you can't have an agreement/argument between two parties (kevin and buyers) that results in a loss for a completely non-affiliated third party (Fox). If you *could* you can be sure unscrupulous people would already be exploiting such a loophole.

Only thing I can think of would be the judge ordering the games sold as part of the BK liquidation with a compulsory license payment paid to Fox, but I don't know if there are laws providing for that. Most likely is that Fox is given the games as illegal contraband. Keith can fight for them.. will be interesting to see the results.

In your videogame example, the game studio has presumably entered into an agreement with the owner of the IP they're making the game with, and such an agreement would cover what happens if the studio goes titsup before the game's done. In kevin's case, Fox has no agreement with anyone, and didn't even know the games were being made til they were tipped off years after it started. It is in Fox's best interests to discourage piracy of their IP, and going soft on Kevin would only encourage more stupid behavior from other stupid people.

#12711 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Building a prototype which is never intended to itself be sold for profit sure seems to fall under "fair use". I think you'll find this same point over and over when googling:

Building a one-off for personal use is OK under fair use. Selling it is not, regardless of the original intent when building. I've seen folks sell or trade their 'fair use' built games occasionally, but they do so basically under the radar. Predator is no longer under the radar.

Quoted from Firebaall:

A prototype(s) would be fair use as personal property up until moved to another party. I could build a predator pinball right now, even a few, as long as I didn't sell or distribute them

Exactly.. cannot sell or distribute

Quoted from Firebaall:

They would be actionable assets if the bank came knocking for personal debt liabilities. Since bung hole that has the machines can't produce a receipt for the items, they are still considered personal property of Kevin. i.e. They were never transferred legally, and did not violate IP.

They would not be assets if the rights-holder and bankruptcy court both knew of their existence. The big problem here is that everything is out in the open now. Fox can and will block any transfer of those machines. If you made a fair-use game for personal use and declared BK years later, neither the judge nor especially the rights holder would have a clue and it would be sold like any other pinball you own(ed).

#12714 2 years ago
Quoted from MotorCityMatt:

You really think Fox gives a shit? Lol, what a joke. It would cost more money to fly their lawyers out to Michigan than what they would recover from a grown man dressed in pirate suit from Pinconning MI. You ever been through Pinconning? Only thing there is a good cheese shop.

Yea, I think they do. Fox's bread and butter is licensing. Licensing TV shows to affiliates, licensing movies to theatres, cable companies and disc manufacturers, licensing their TV and movie IP to other companies for various products, etc.

This has blown up to the point they HAVE to pay attention and put the hammer down to discourage anyone else from "pulling a Kulek" and pirating their IP in the future. Look at how they got caught with their pants down... if they blow this off and let Kevin pay his liabilities with their IP, someone's gonna see an opportunity and do it again. That is the LAST thing Fox wants.

#12722 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

From a legal standpoint I honestly believe 100% a person had a right to legally buy it (especially since it was bought second hand and not from Kevin). Still do. A prototype constitutes fair use IMO


The initial sale was unlicensed. You can't sell stolen property. Building a game filled with Predator IP and selling it with no license is illegal, regardless of original build intent. To allow otherwise opens the door to all kinds of crazy shenanigans (like the idea of selling the game enough times so that it eventually becomes "clean" LOL)

#12806 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nothing has really "blown up" in any way for Fox.
A guy built himself a pinball machine in his basement.
He was denied the license to build them for commercial sale.
He did not build any for commercial sale.
End of story.

You kinda forgot one part. Insert "He fraudulently collected hundreds of thousands of dollars using Fox IP and claiming to be licensed" as step 3.

I think Fox would want this whole mess, including the machines, to just go away; and they have the power to make that happen.

#12855 2 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

That has no reflection or responsibility on the IP holder. Stop the red herring.

Not a red herring. If he actually released the game and it sucked, it would potentially cause damage to their IP/trademark ("Wow, look at that shitty Predator pinball, I can't believe they let that get produced.. " etc). Even one copy can be enough to destroy. This is one of the main arguments rights lawyers make concerning counterfeit products. Although there was never a real Predator machine, shitty unlicensed games can hurt Fox's reputation.

#12856 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Fox does not spend a single second of their corporate day worrying about any of that.
Note that after many years:
- Fox has not demanded Kevin turn over his game.
- Fox has not taken Kevin to court to collect any damages.
- Fox has not petitioned any federal law enforcement agencies to take action against Kevin.
Why? Because Fox does not care about a goofy guy who dresses like a pirate, and built a Predator pinball machine in his basement.
Fox has billions of pirate Bluray, DVDs and toys to worry about, sequels to Avatar and How to Train your Dragon - you know, stuff that actually matters to their bottom line.


They very well might not care. If this slowly burns out and the games stay underground with whomever has them now, maybe they continue to ignore. But, if this stays as noisy as it's been, even just in the pinball community, I think they take steps to get the games back and destroyed. The fact that dozens (or hundreds) of people lost good chunks of money is why I think this will eventually end with the destruction of the games. Some folks won't let it die til there's nothing left to beat.

1 month later
#13966 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Any state resilient enough to survive the Bowling Green Massacre and not constantly be bringing it up in the media, or begging for handouts from the feds, can't be all bad.

They need a fed handout to replace the Brent Spence! NKY opposes tolls so the project sits and sits...

#14091 2 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Absolutely. But the thing of it is that nobody calls any more. It's like people are afraid of talking on the phone these days. If you want to call and discuss feel free.

John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, MI.

If I call, will you read me the time and temperature in a sexy voice?

3 months later
#15849 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

There is nothing illeagal or unethical about emailing to see about purchasing some camera equipment.

Hypothetical situation:

- Kevin is doing something squirrely... say, selling things under the table to raise money without the BK court's knowledge
- You encourage people to "investigate"
- Enough people "investigate" to arouse Kevin's suspicion
- When proper lawyer (who can actually do something about it) investigates, Kevin's shields are up and doesn't reply

Not terribly likely, but possible. Best to leave the snooping to the people who can actually follow up with legal motions. Forward suspicious ads and whatnot to Keith.. don't call the dude yourself just to check.

#15876 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I may be polarizing online,

You seemed pretty cool IRL at Jay's.. just try running your online activities thru the same filter

2 weeks later
#16213 2 years ago

Looks like they picked the worst spot in the area to live... no wonder the house was dirt cheap. Still shut down as of Sun afternoon

doh (resized).png

#16422 2 years ago

It would be stupid to re-furnish that house without building a large floodwall or other significant mitigation. Looks like everyone except their 4 neighbors has gotten the clue and abandoned the area. It WILL happen again, esp with climate change feeding larger storms these days.


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