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(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

5 years ago

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  • 18,415 posts
  • 824 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 32 days ago by TheLaw
  • Topic is favorited by 187 Pinsiders


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Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (3 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (3 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (3 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (3 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (3 years ago)

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#372 5 years ago

I don't think anyone questions the game having the Predator license (all of us who followed this from the beginning believe they acquired that part right out of the gate). I think the question is whether they have the rights to Arnold.

The reason many people question this point is Dark Horse could never get rights to his character (his likeness was less the issue than those to his character, it was the character itself that Arnold had the rights too per my memory) for their comic books and that comic book line was national and popular.

I've seen enough pictures now that I personally believe games are being assembled and will be shipped. Regardless of the IP issues with Arnold, I think the games are being made - just my personal opinion which is worth what you paid for it though.

2 months later
#867 5 years ago

rai makes great points as he always does.

As I mentioned before IM VE was the primary reason I got out on Predator. I just don't see how an initial release game can compete with something like Iron Man...Kevin may one day prove he can design games better than Borg and his support staff...but that day is likely not going to come upon release of his first game.

2 weeks later
#1680 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Here you go, the 30-second summary:
Kevin sent a note saying "there have been many recent actions by
certain parties that threaten the very existence of everything I've done to
keep this project going for the past few years"
****** that made some people nervous
Kevin also said, "no matter what, nobody is going to
get left out to dry on this one, I can promise you that."
****** that made some people less nervous
Some anonymous folks said(among other things), "SkitB does not have a valid license for the pinball and that Fox has served Kevin with a C&D which he ignored. And, an expose is forthcoming- The sky *IS* falling"
****** that made some people nervous
SpfxdTed called Kevin and passed along "The game is being made. The license is ok. Cant go into details NOW, but in 2 weeks time all will be made clear. Dont panic"
****** that made people less nervous
In between all that, I called Whysnow a boob, he called me a troll. Rinse, repeat and that is about the sum of all things.

Thanks. Can you come to the JPop thread and give us a summary there as well.

2 weeks later
#2556 5 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

To those of you who have requested a refund and have yet to hear back, please message me right away so we can get everything taken care of.

Where would he be messaged? I did not receive this email nor did I ever receive my $250 back.

#3003 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Or, the whole thing falls to shit and whatever is left gets divvied up.

I guess the real question is what exactly is left? Was Kevin drawing a salary from the company? Consulting fees?

Hilton feels 93% of the money is left. My guess is if correct many would be happy to hear that. If the number is more around 50% then maybe people wouldn't be happy to hear that but it is what it is. If it is 15% left then those sharpening the pitchforks will go nuts as that would mean some kind of compensation was drawn out of the company and that is where people are going to get very upset fast.

#3253 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Next time I go to court I am taking a tablet and using wiki. No need for an attorney eh?

That's not all that different from what I see many attorneys doing anyway . . .

#3620 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That does not answer the question.
Yes, i have been cheering this on from the start and have been vocal about the negative implications when others have been trying to instigate a run on the bank for 6 months.
However, you still have not answered the question. Did you stay in longer because of me?

Without question you shouted down those who didn't share your rose colored views. You would stalk and crusade against those who asked tough analytical questions, those people turned out to be right (apparently) but you delayed the discussion basically single handedly. It was impressive really in its own way.

#4282 5 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

After reading the wordpress site, at least now I have a pretty good idea of who Mr. X is. Disappointing he sat on this info at the request of Fox's attorney (to whom he was not beholden) while there was still a chance for some buyers to exercise paypal disputes.

I don't blame him for handling it the way he did. He would have been blamed for the project failing if he went loud with this in Q4 of 14. I think the whole seeding of the story was a bit on the dramatic side but jeez...this entire thing is exceedingly dramatic on its own.

#4556 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I did not believe these emails from labnip or whomever it was. the emails contained all sorts of things that were proven false, incorrect, and also contained all sorts of personal attacks. Only portions of these emails appear to be factual.
I am not sure about you, but I tend to write off anything that is sent to me via an alias as BS. keep in mind that mr X told me I was the only person he sent the original email to, but it was apparent quickly that he had sent the emails to many people. the emails were filled with lies and intended to insite a panic. In mr X was more forthcoming and also not directly attacking then maybe I would have believed.what he said. I fwded these emails onto a handful of pinsiders and mods as many of them were named in the emails. Mr X has only told a small portion of the entire back story in his wordpress sight.
If you are stupid enough to think I have selfish motives of just getting my game built and then walking you obviously have no idea what you are talking about or my concern for the greater community.

WhySnow is telling the truth in that he forwarded what he received to some mods, as did others (many people were receiving the messages). We could not confirm the information contained in the various messages. This has been troubling.

#4592 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Playboy ,
Ideally 200 people would have games . sorry fox would have been screwed and that is wrong too. But I my eyes better than this . Just an ass hats opinion .
But I always side with the outcome that equals games in someone hands.

At best Kevin was going to be building those games for the next eighteen months. I just don't believe the project would have flown under the radar with Fox for that long under any circumstances...especially once the first batch shipped.

Just a crazy unfortunate situation. I doubt Mr. X knew of the credit card / pay pal dealine that may have passed for some during the private emailing period of this drama unfolding.

#5510 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Conversely, it was a possibility that he was screwing everyone. It was a possibility the project needed to be killed. Where's the neutrality in the decision that was made to not say anything? Which did it favor, Kevin or the community?

Could have favored either, if he had a the right to make the machine then releasing the rumor would have hurt the community. When in doubt, it is best not to spread unsubstantiated rumors (this is basically always the case).

As an aside, I brought up some concerns late last year and was simply blasted by one of the Skit-B defenders. He lodged complaints about me to Robin and the other mods, started stalking my posts claiming I had some agenda he could not articulate . . . and just generally acted an ass till he was banned for a week . . . after that do you think I'm going to get involved with possibly spreading rumors . . . nope.

In any event, the discussion of this facet of the topic is over. Do not criticize the moderation, we received second hand information we could not confirm from a source that would not event identify themselves . . . as did countless others.

I will note that anonymous person/group will come out soon. If Fox pursues the civil case there will be depositions taken of that group (Fox had their number and interviewed them . . . Fox knows who they are). My guess is Kevin knows who they are as well since they received deposit returns . . . soon enough the public record will reveal what everyone (including me) wants to know . . . or there really is no infringement suit coming down the road and an exaggeration of the anonymous group will be confirmed.

#5811 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I was OK with their big expose (though wish it came sooner), but this last email feels like they want to go beyond exposing Kevin and want to rub his nose in it.
It's just not needed... especially since Kevin hasnt refuted and of the allegations since the article.
Now IF he comes out and spins a new web of shit, well , that different. But right now, this feels like they are just "spiking the football"

Totally agree, they are spiking the football now. While I take little issue with what they did (I think they saved the situation from getting much worse personally) they should leave the victory lapping on the playfield.

I mentioned this earlier but it is buried now. We will all find out who the secret group is comprised of soon enough if there really is a lawsuit brought by Fox. Remember, Fox interviewed them and knows who they are. They may be mentioned in the petition itself, deposed in the lawsuit, or gleaned through discovery. Regardless, Kevin knows who they are you can darn well bet...he refunded them and Fox likely mentioned them in the threats/discussions/negotiations or whatever you want to call it.

Regarding Kevin, I figured his next move would be to come out and say he had a license issued by a roug fox employee or former employee that he learned was not valid...a claim that he himself was fooled by a third party. This would fall flat on many, but is a way he can shirk responsibility to the public, refund the money he has left and claim to be the one who was misled...

#5818 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Trying to think this one through, and I am not so sure that I see a scenario where these people would be exposed just because Fox brings a lawsuit.
A Fox attorney may have interviewed them, but what personal information do they have that any other Predator owner wouldn't have?
The only major thing that they discovered was that Kevin didn't have a license from Fox for Predator. How did they find that out? By talking to a Fox attorney!
So I don't see them being a witness anymore than any other owner.
Question: "Isn't it true that you found out Kevin was making Predator Pinball without a license?"
Answer: "Yes".
Question: "How did you determine that?"
Answer: "You told me!"

Of course I know what you are saying. They already have these particular people's info etc., so they make the obvious choice as witnesses who are likely to cooperate.

I know exceedingly little about California law, but I could see the time period of when Fox learned of the infringement being meaningful for prescription type issues...they would use the date of the phone call rather than a 2011 date (granted, I'm sure it would be some sort of continuing infringement so it may not matter but Fox may state the date they became aware of the matter in the petition if it is a detailed filing).

Kevin's counsel would surely get all their data in boilerplate discovery (who all have you spoken with regarding this matter, who all have you interviewed, when did you interview them, etc.).

#6198 5 years ago
Quoted from oopsallberrys:

Paypal has closed my case and filed in my favor. I got my "refund" of 4500 . Good luck to everyone else!

Best news I have seen all day!

#6507 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Again, IF he has lawyered up then someone should be able to identify his lawyer. The lawyer should provide communication in lieu of Kevin. I would think the lawyer could issue statements (where possible) to answer consumer's questions such as the current status of funds.
ALSO, what about Aaron Klumpp? Why is he also not on the hook? He spent 2+ years as half owner/partner of Skit-B as well, no? Has he lawyered up separately? Is Fox not going after him too? If not, why doesn't Martin try getting some answers out of him?

No lawyer representing Kevin is going to communicate with the creditors except through formal processes. He would not take people's phone calls or anything like that for certain. You won't know who he is until he filed a document of some kind (answers a suit or files bankruptcy).

Regarding the bankruptcy discussion earlier in the thread, one point I will add is the debt is generally speaking non-dischargable in the bankruptcy due to it being an intentional act (fraud). That doesn't necisarily help anyone since it may nevertheless be non-collectable and the bankruptcy rules do provide protections for ones assets even in cases of an intentional act.

#6541 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

This guy has collected 77 million for his 1/2 built game since 2012.
You can buy a $10,000 "Wing Commander" package now that gives you 44 virtual ships in the game (if it ever gets made).
The release date keeps getting pushed back.....

That is stunning to read. Thanks for the link vid.

#6855 5 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

The thing with a lawsuit is that in Michigan small claims court can go up to $5500. I want my $4750 back, but if I have to buy a plane ticket and take two days off of work, then I'm going to go after the $5500. Guy just needs to issue refunds before it gets worse for him.

Quoted from playboywillis:

Only problem I have is that if he has a lawyer, then he can request it be taken to real court. Then I would have to get a real lawyer, and since I'm the plaintiff, I don't think that entitles me to a court appointed attorney. Then I'm already out half the money. Then it would be multiple days, multiple plane tickets. Then even if you win, you still might not get paid. What a mess man. I just want a damn machine in my house so I can stop getting hammered every time I want to play!

I'm confused on why you would travel to him to sue him. File the action where you live and serve him under the long arm statute. *note this is not advice to which anyone can rely, check your own laws and visit with your own attorney*

#6860 5 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

"Small claims cases should be filed either where the cause of action arose (for example, where the transaction or dispute took place), where the person or business you are suing is located (for example, where the defendant resides or is employed). If you are suing more than one person or business, the suit cannot be filed where the claim arose but must be filed in the district court where any of the persons live or where any of the businesses operate."
"The answer is, maybe. As with face-to-face disputes, your ability to sue in small claims court for a wrong you suffered via an Internet transaction depends on where the person or business you want to sue is located. You cannot automatically sue someone in small claims court when you have suffered an economic loss. The court has to have power over that particular party, which basically depends on where the person or business lives, works, or has an office. If your Internet-related dispute is with a person or business located in your state, then you shouldn't have a problem. However, only under specific circumstances can you sue a nonresident in your state's small claims court.
If the person or business does not regularly do business with state residents over the Internet (in other words, if the transaction at issue is a one-time event), then you will not be able to sue in your local small claims court, because that person does not live, work, or regularly do business in-state; it is therefore fundamentally unfair to ask that party to travel to your state to defend itself from a lawsuit."
This was some of the stuff I was reading TigerLaw.

So, I know literally nothing about the various small claims courts and local rules in states outside of Louisiana and Texas. I do know small claims court is not always the best place to be even if the amount in dispute would allow you to file there.

State district court for a matter like this makes more sense to me. He advertised country wide for this project . . . you paid him from your home state (presumably). He would struggle to say he doesn't have minimum contacts some where with which to convey jurisdiction . . . and then he'd have to be the one hiring an out of state lawyer to fight you.

Serving him is going to be the real problem, but that is going to be a problem anyway by my guess . . .

*again, not giving anyone legal advice on which they may rely, contact a local attorney*

#6861 5 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

Can you prove that he never had a license? I'm not being a dick. Just saying. Can you prove it?

That would be the easiest thing to do, funny enough. Send a subpoena to Fox in the civil claim; they would have no reason not to answer . . . if you can figure out the right division at Fox to send the subpoena to . . . that may actually be the hardest thing.

#7020 5 years ago

Question for those with experience in the matter:

Some people are getting credit back from their credit card companies. Surely the credit card companies have a recourse against Kevin (or PayPal?) since they are eating these charge backs...

My guess is the credit card companies charge a hefty fine to the person or entity who took the credit card payment when their is a charge back later. If that trial leads to Kevin then just the finess/fees from the credit card companies themselves are eating into whatever monies are left? I really don't know, perhaps the credit card charge backs aren't hitting the money pool Kevin presumably has left at all. Thoughts?

#7086 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

I know if they had openly told the story about Skit-B when they knew it I could have received about 80% of my money back. Oh well lesson learned, im done with this hobby.

Man, I know this situation sucks, but the hobby is still today what it was last year, a lot of fun. What Kevin did sucks. Don't let it suck the life out of your enthusiasm for pinball. You have a really nice collection.

#7106 5 years ago
Quoted from gamestencils:

Not sure I get what at all would be different had AG revealed what they knew earlier. It would have just caused the exact same reaction that ultimately happened, just a little bit sooner. A rush on kevin then or now wasn't going to suddenly make refunds happen and everyone get their money back. The warning issues were there so very long before the AG thing, so perhaps that just made it be 'real' in peoples minds? There's not one thing in the big pinball news story that hadn't been talked about for months in this same thread so it was basically known what was going on, just a certain level of denial or faith that was hard to let go of until the AG proved beyond any amount of faith what was up was all that truly changed post story. Blame the robber, not the camera that proved him guilty.

The theory is more people would have been able to collect charge backs from their credit card companies or possibly even hit Pay Pal's 180 day window to get their money back.

#7118 5 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

The AG people don't matter.
At the end of the day, they actually did everyone who had ordered a Predator a huge favor. Not from the sense of being out money (I hope everyone gets a refund), but in the sense of owning stolen merchandise.
Fox would have eventually found out about the game. Their lawsuit would start with Kevin, but not end with him. The next targets would be the 250 Predator owners. Fox would come after you as well.
Stealing is stealing. There's no way to defend Kevin, so please stop going after the AG. At the end of the day, they saved you from the Fox legal team. Fox would not only want the machine, but they would certainly want damages, and don't forget the legal costs you would incur.
The law is very clear. Stolen property is stolen property. It doesn't matter if you obtain it legally.
There's only one person in this whole fiasco who doesn't care about the 250 people…Kevin. He lied, and lied, and lied, and lied, and lied. He knew what he was doing. No adult can claim ignorance in this situation.
Quite frankly, I wish I was part of this community several years ago. The biggest red flag was when Kevin claimed to be a nonprofit. My background is in accounting/finance. That was the biggest sign that he was running a scam on everyone.

My understanding is copyright infringement is copyright infringement. It is similar to theft but is legally different from theft. I'm not sure being in possession of material that is a copyright infringement would be treated the same legally as being in possession of stolen property...I actually think it would be treated substantially different.

Notation: I am not an IP attorney. I know no more than a layman on this point.

#7231 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Guess who's at Michigan Pinball Expo! It's Aaron Klumpp! Hmm. I'm glad he's not in hiding.

That is stunning. Anyone talk to him? Everyone is upset at AG, surely he knew the product was not licensed as well...even before money was sent in.

#7254 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There never was an actual corporation registered, so it's not like he got "bought out" or is sitting on a pile of shares.

That might be worse for him actually . . . could be a legal partnership (basically an extent entity after the rise of LLC's nationwide . . . one would have to look at his home state's laws to see how partnerships would form there and whether he properly withdrew and what legal effect that would even have).

#7362 5 years ago

Does anyone know if Kevin has an actual job?

#7387 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

I need help from the community. I have contacted two attorneys here and neither one wanted to help, even with a $2,500 retainer offered up front. It was clear there is more money than that as well. 2500, 5000, 10,000 , I dont care.
Some guys think they need to be licensed in MI to quarter back this case, which is just incorrect. You need to be able to HIRE an attorney to work for you in MI. That's all. I have had much better success hiring attorneys to be in charge of other attorneys, like is needed in this case.
I hire an attorney, from Louisiana let's say. Someone who totally understands the case and the issues. I pay that attorney thousands to start and that attorney hires a firm in MI to actually do the grunt work on the ground in MI. That prevents the whole miscommunication and "we know better than our client" attitude and gives the case a natural quarterback with attorney to attorney follow up. There really is no other way to operate if you are nationwide. You just can't find an attorney in my neck of the woods that is licensed in all 50 states.
I have several attorneys here in Arkansas that I could use, but it would be an uphill battle explaining all this to them. I want a pinball lawyer if possible - all this is going to be is sending letters and phone calls, I will bet $50.
So what I need from Pinside. all of you, is a recommendation for an attorney. A michigan attorney would be optimal, but as I described totally not necessary. What would be even better would be if a lawyer here on Pinside would step up to help me. I really need it. Not a joke.
If you are a lawyer reading this - if you can hire a lawyer to work for you in Michigan, you could do it. What matters to me is not where you are licensed, but that you care about this case and seeing a resolution. WHICH I WILL PAY FOR - no pro bono save the pinball world crap. I run a big company - if you take this case you can have access to the whole corporate staff to do your bidding.
So fellow pinheads...Please help me.
ps - if you are an experienced attorney and a pinhead reading this, please don't just sit on the sidelines, I need your help so I don't get screwed by an attorney to add to the shitstorm of Kevin Kulek.

I would love to do this and help you and the community, sadly I am currently totally overwhelmed at work and just can't dedicate the time that would be needed.

I do think you should talk to an attorney in Arkansas about filing the case in Arkansas on your behalf. You might be surprised to hear you may have proper venue for your claim there based on Kevin's marketing to you and accepting payment from you. Also, I note just as you are struggling to figure out how to manage a lawsuit in MI, Kevin would struggle to figure out how to manage a lawsuit filed against in Arkansas . . .

Quoted from rommy:

I have several attorneys here in Arkansas that I could use, but it would be an uphill battle explaining all this to them.

"I got scammed online by a dude in Michigan. He said he had a license from Fox to produce a product, it came out in a news article he did not have the license. Here is the news article. He then publicly said he would refund me in a few days and I still don't have my money and its been a few weeks. No one has heard from him. I want you to sue him in Arkansas, the amount in controversy for me (even if ten others join in with my suit) is not enough for him to remove it to federal court and I doubt the defendant is even going to answer the suit (because he doesn't answer anything else) so you'll probably be getting a default judgment against him anyway.

Here is his home address to have him served under the long arm statute. Here is your check for filing fees. Here is your retainer of which the other nine guys who are joining in on the suit have contributed $1,000 each. Go kick his ass sea bass."

The lawyer in Arkansas would understand the above. *I'm not giving legal advice to people, just suggesting they speak with an attorney in their home state. They will understand this stuff.*

#7388 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I want you to sue him in Arkansas, the amount in controversy for me (even if ten others join in with my suit) is not enough for him to remove it to federal court and I doubt the defendant is even going to answer the suit (because he doesn't answer anything else) so you'll probably be getting a default judgment against him anyway.

"Oh, and Mr. Arkansas lawyer, please make sure you allege this was an intentional tort in your suit and if you get a default judgment due to Kevin not answering make sure the language is included in the default judgment because everyone thinks Kevin is going to try and bankrupt out of this debt and I want it to haunt him until he pays it back.

Oh, and Mr. Arkansas lawyer, once you file the suit please go ahead and send a subpoena to Fox for data on who AG is (ie. who they talked to about Kevin and when) . . . because inquiring minds want to know and I know once you subpoena that data from Fox in a simple interrogatory they will be required to answer and one of the great puzzles on Pinside will be solved. And then I'm high fiving my pinball brethren."

#7390 5 years ago

The big question I would have is whether Kevin's eventual bankruptcy proceeding (my guess is it is coming sooner or later) would stay the out of state lawsuit(s) and have it (them) transferred to Michigan bankruptcy court for a ruling.

I don't know enough about bankruptcy law to opine on that point . . . but I do know it would suck to lose venue that way . . . perhaps a pinlawyer more knowledgeable on bankruptcy procedure can weigh in on whether a pre-judgment out of state lawsuit would be subject to being transferred to the bankruptcy court.

#7401 5 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Does anyone have a Pacer account to inquire and see if Kevin's filed bankruptcy?
If he does, I want to be a creditor making a demand.

I have Pacer, I'll check this afternoon.

As far as I know it is the obligation of the person seeking discharge to name all his creditors and provide them notice of the BK filing (again, I have limited sophistication with bankruptcy procedure so speak with a specialist, do not rely on my limited knowledge of bankruptcy procedure).

#7407 5 years ago

There was a Kevin Kulek that filed for bankruptcy in 1989 in Lincoln, Nebraska (Case: 89-40952) . . . not the same person. I did not see anything filed by our Kevin . . . note that does not mean he hasn't filed, just that I didn't see/find it when I looked in passing.

#7413 5 years ago
Quoted from Cobra99:

He mentioned that he was going over to visit Kevin and his lawyer in the next 1/2 hour.

Did he provide you the name of the attorney by chance?

#7438 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

"Kevin told us that although it is happening slowly and streadily, the refund process has begun and a number of those who pre-ordered have already received repayments."
LOL! Will one person please confirm that they got an actual refund from Kevin, and not through a chargeback? Just one person...anyone?...*crickets*

Quoted from RobT:

What a crock of shit.

It is clear to me personally that in Kevin's mind when he does not contest a charge back he views that as issuing a refund. Obviously that does nothing for those people who get rejected by their credit card companies and pay pal...which leads me to this...

Heaven help those people who paid by check or have been rejected for a charge back, in this article Kevin says the money is in the pay pal account still...just my guess but I'm sure on the credit card charge backs that ARE going through pay pal is charging all kinds of fees against what is in that account as well as taking money out. Kevin may well be locked out of that account now but that doesn't necessarily mean the money is safe...just my personal view.

Kevin answered very little of the concerns regarding refunds...actually didn't answer any.

#7444 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

So, it has to be safe to assume he doesn't have a lawyer? What lawyer would allow that to be publicly released?

My guess is that interview was conducted at least a week ago, maybe longer. No lawyer would allow that, those statements had to be made before Kevin lawyered up.

I did not see in the article if it said when the interview was conducted (perhaps I missed it) but I sure would like to know the exact date.

#7517 5 years ago
Quoted from movingpictures:

Interesting choice by Kevin to employ the "I'm the worlds biggest fucking idiot" defense.

It could end up being the smartest thing he has done.

If he is scared about the criminal aspects of all of this he needs to come off as someone who didn't know better and lacked criminal intent for his actions...he probably rightly feels the civil court judgments are less a danger than picking up bars of soap...

#7660 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Oof. Go to about 1:19:15. Kevin discusses the license for EoD, then they ask him about his experiences with the Predator licensing. Knowing what we do now, it's pretty clear he was lying straight through his teeth without skipping a beat. He discusses artwork that was rejected by Fox, and working with a contact at Fox on an ongoing basis.
At about 1:23:30 he talks about doing an unlicensed theme. He says that Skit-B might do an unlicensed theme once they've graduated from the mantle of 'boutique' maker to a real producer of games, but that an unlicensed theme at such an early stage would make it look like they were "just cheap and didn't want to pay for licensing."
At 1:24:30 he talks about working for several weeks to get the license for Long Tall Sally, and says it was one of the most expensive aspects of the machine.
He's a very convincing liar.

Someone needs to send that to the detective who is supposedly looking into Kevin's actions.

#7705 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

You're reading this entire thread? Holy hell!

Actually, I think those who have read this entire thread need T-shirts . . .

#7709 5 years ago

That's a good one but survival is sadly a matter of subjective interpritation in this case.

#7753 5 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Send the info via email. I'm sure he doesn't want 2000 phone calls.

I think he needs to be called. Law enforcement needs to know how serious this is. I'm calling about my $250. I hope everyone else does too.

#7819 5 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Also got the Detectives email. He basically says he has asked the FBI for assistance as the number of victims is so large, and that people send him the info which Rommy described earlier. He also asked for patience as he deals with the whole thing.

Do we have a contact for the FBI to reach out to as well?

#7838 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Too late now.
If it's gone Federal, every penny of deposit will need to go to a real lawyer's retainer.

I'm not sure how that works, our claim is he absconded with our funds under false pretenses and used our money for his personal use; if his answer is to abscond with the rest of it to pay a lawyer a retainer for his personal use he may be digging himself an even bigger hole.

Just my personal opinion but he needs to refund the money he has left and not let his lawyers eat further into our money.

#7839 5 years ago
Quoted from Ed209:

It makes me sad that this excites you. I'm all for justice but his daughters did nothing and will be victims of his actions. This is not something to cheer about.

Vid was being sarcastic. He is not happy about that possibility...he was just pointing it out.

#7906 5 years ago

Jetzxi is not on trial here gang. He was a preorder guy like many of you and was excited about the project and got lied to by Kevin like the rest of us. That was a couple months ago. No big deal.

#7910 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Cmon guys....Kevin may be delusional and has a hard time with the truth but let's not compare him to a killer and let's leave his kids out of kid should have to face the prospect of a parent serving time.


Everyone: drop the subject of his children entirely please.

#7924 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Correct. He was "promoting" Predator at shows for at least a year and maybe as much as two, even after all pre-orders were filled and there was a waiting list. I didn't hear any evidence that he over-sold past 250, however.

He was promoting to his own pre order buyers to make sure they stayed in when he asked for the big money from them and not just the $250. His sell out was just with $250...he had to promote it at shows or he wouldn't have been able to get people locked in.

#8039 5 years ago
Quoted from asay:

I wonder if he or his family could legally sell the prototype after all this, he will definitely need the cash and I guarantee someone would drop a lot of money on it.

My guess is that thing would fetch 30k in an auction just here on Pinside. Can't be sold though . . .

#8044 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

It would certainly shock me if someone paid that. People paid $20-$25K for Matrix which was actually an awesome game and only a handful were made. I've played Predator. Not so great.
If it does get anywhere close to $30K I'm sure their "Duck Hunt" and "Sonic the Hedgehog" would immediately go up for sale too, lol.

People paying 30k for a pin are not paying for gameplay. They are paying for the story...few games have the story this prototype would have.

#8066 5 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I hesitated to mention what's been going on because I've been afraid Kevin might be a flight risk. But he's finally been serviced by the Midland County Sheriff's Office, and I have a court date with him on the calendar.
So, if Kevin and/or his attorney read this, feel free to contact me so we can settle this out of court. Otherwise, I'll look forward to seeing you there. I'm glad to see a little traction made here, although I know there is still a long way to go.

That is good news. Are you able/willing to disclose what venue you are suing him in?

#8143 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Ayyy, whatever is the most painful and long lasting. Couldn't care less about that lying s*@t-stain, just want to make sure he doesn't gain anything from this and the rest of his useless life is as annoying and financially-painful as possible.
New page though, hey Kevin Whitney Kulek, how is that refund coming along for everyone that you promised? Hopefully your lawyer, Sam "Small-print" Lieman, is keeping you strung along....errr, well informed and protected with the money we sent you to build the Predator machines

Did I miss that Kevin's lawyer has been identified by name? Sam Lieman?

#8147 5 years ago

Gotcha. No one has determined who Kevin's lawyer is as of yet then?

If I were that guy and reading this thread seeing how angry everyone was and that it was getting worse I would consider a press release of some kind since his client's last public words were refunds were being processed...keeping us in the dark is clearly just resulting in the customers (if we can even call ourselves that) all taking aggressive independent actions.

Keeping us in the dark is probably not the best idea.

#8150 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I can't imagine any lawyer's advice would be for them (the lawyer) to stay in the shadows. If nothing else, that lawyer should be the one working interference between Kevin and everyone. Makes me wonder if he even has real legal representation.

Exactly right.

Quoted from belairjoe:

yes not the best idea for all you guys who paid but im thinking whoever his lawyer is sees that big old chunk of your money and is thinking what is best for him .the longer it takes...the more hours he bills

I'm not convinced the money we paid in is being used to fund the defense. It just doesn't seem wise to use the misappropriated funds that were generated from the crime/bad act to defend yourself from the legal actions stemming from the crime/bad act. That, in and of itself, is using our money for a purpose other than what he took it in on.

Repurposing our money to his personal legal defense is just as bad of an act as taking it from us under a lie to begin with. If Kevin is doing this he is digging an even bigger hole.

#8151 5 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I hesitated to mention what's been going on because I've been afraid Kevin might be a flight risk. But he's finally been serviced by the Midland County Sheriff's Office, and I have a court date with him on the calendar.
So, if Kevin and/or his attorney read this, feel free to contact me so we can settle this out of court. Otherwise, I'll look forward to seeing you there. I'm glad to see a little traction made here, although I know there is still a long way to go.

If you find out the name of his attorney please let the rest of us know.

Also, are you allowed to send out discovery questions (interrogatories, requests for production of documents, answer demands, etc) in the forum you have sued in? How about third party subpoenas (to Fox)? I could help you craft a few questions if these were authorized by the forum you are in, the problem would be serving them on him if his lawyer has not materialized in your suit yet.

#8159 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Would love to see the look on his face when he receives Interrogatories/Demand for Production of Documents asking him to produce any and all documents in any way related to or tending to show that he had (has) a license to make Predator at any time in the last 3-4 years.

"Please provide a flow of funds outline for each payment received on Project Predator."

"Please identify all actions taken by you or your duly authorized representative to refund money to your customers."

Please identify all monies spent during Project Predator, breaking them out into each use by date."

Please identify all salaries, commissions, fees, or other remuneration You or any party related by affinity or consanguinity to the fourth degree to You have received from Project Predator or Skit-B".

#8164 5 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

I heard last week that no one from Mich. had filed a complaint. Any truth?

Quoted from Trekie:

I heard last week that no one from Mich. had filed a complaint. Any truth?

If there is a jurisdictional benefit to the group in having a Michigan resident file the complaint I'm sure he would do so. Is there a benefit and if so what is it?

#8168 5 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Avoiding removal to federal court?

Should not be applicable to the criminal side of things. From a criminal prosecution perspective can anyone think of a legal need/benefit for a local complainant?

#8173 5 years ago
Quoted from Zampinator:

How many lawyers are on pinside!? And do I/we get a discounted "pinsider" rate, God forbid I ever need one of your services?

There are at least seven regular posters on Pinside that are practicing attorneys (there were eight but Gambit does not post here frequently these days), five of them have weighed in during this thread at some point.

#8181 5 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

The ones I can think of:
TigerLaw - litigator?
RobT - litigator, I think
DCFan - works at the USPTO
StevenP - IP
Razorback - invented the class action lawsuit and bankruptcy court system
me - small town pizza lawyer:
» YouTube video

I'm a commercial transactions and regulatory compliance guy with a healthy splattering of oil & gas and gaming law mixed in. It has been some time since I've personally been inside a court room other than as an advisor on commercial law issues.

#8219 5 years ago

Did anyone figure out if Kevin has a job somewhere? How about the name of his lawyer?

#8227 5 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

I looked into it, but not that much. Make inquiries with a local attorney and see if you can get the civil suit in your state/province/country. That way if he doesn't show, you win by default.

We have a winner. I just haven't understood everyone wanting to go into Kevin's home state for all this.

What I would do, even if I was not an attorney, would be file suit in my home state in my home county/parish, in my home city and serve him long arm statute and default him when he doesn't show up. You don't need an attorney to sue someone . . . this can be done cheaply by people

*again, I'm not giving anyone legal advice, just saying what I would do.

#8256 5 years ago

Some people ask how many lawyer jokes are there? The answer is surprising because there are really only three. The rest are true stories.

#8271 5 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Is this the longest thread in Pinside history, or close to it?

I believe it is third behind the EM for sale thread and the XMen Club.

#8337 5 years ago
Quoted from KingDaddy:

Yup, a Google search lasts forever... I would list his full name and details as much as possible.

Indeed it does. I wonder how many webpages reference Kevin's bad conduct. I hope it isn't just Pinside.

Does anyone know if Kevin has a job? If his wife has a job? Or who his attorney is? Thanks in advance.

#8393 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

That moron is gonna do jail time, I paid $4750 and if im not getting it back Id like to know I at the very least paid that money to send him to jail.

I sure hope he goes to jail. Just absconding with the money and going silent after promising refunds is not acceptable. I'm only out $250 but I'm not happy being defrauded out of that either.

Anyone talk to the detective recently? Kevin trying to skate by on this being civil matter only is frustrating.

#8475 5 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Anyone have any info for us international buyers on how to start a claim against Kevin whilst in another country?
I personally will jump through any hoops and go through any amount of frustrating legal crap to get a result on this. I'm also sure there are many others that would do so too.

Provide your info to the detective like everyone else. Americans are not allowed to scam and con foreigners any more than locals. He committed a crime here against you to (at least I think it is a crime, I hope the detective agrees as I know I feel robbed).

2 weeks later
#8883 5 years ago

Please PM me the lawyer details as well, I seem to have misplaced them. Thanks.

#8974 5 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

My advice: If you haven't received a refund, start a lawsuit and get a judgment and collect it while there's still something to collect. I've seen those kind of "pending" payments from people who have told me that they've "sent" money to me and then the pending transaction gets cancelled b/c there is no money in the paypal account.
My offer is still out there - anyone interested in being more legally proactive, feel free to contact me on here, or on my website and I'll get moving on it right away.
If we get a group of people, I can analyze filing a class-action lawsuit against all of the actors involved.

This is one heck of a nice offer - people should take you up on the offer. I am quoting it to get back to it later quicker.

#8975 5 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

holly shit batman.. lol.. some please delete some of these

Done. Jeez, don't hit enter so many times!!!!

#9094 5 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Predator and Magic Girl get discussed 5 times more than IM and MET, which have shipped thousands. How can that be? Even if those projects had gone as planned, there would be less than 500 of those games.

Because the Stern games are made without this drama.

#9158 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Wow, what a kick in the nuts.
So, then it was NOT a Paypal move, because they wouldn't have done that. It was some hair brained Kevin thing at 3am.
Perhaps he had to go through the motions of "attempting" a refund, for legal defense reasons.

This is my guess as well. He had a reason for doing it this way, probably at the instruction of his attorney. What that reason may be, who knows, but it does make sense that his attempt to issue a refund helps him in some way since he publicly promised refunds "in just a few days" months ago.

What a bunch of crooks and liars. I can't believe they are tricking law enforcement about going into production; insanity.

#9172 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Nosy Pinsiders have tried to scam their way in since day one and still continue to try. Be advised some of the scammers are very clever with the bullshit. And you have to be kind of an asshole about who gets in and who doesn't.

Wow! Can you give us some examples of the stunts they pulled? I'm disappointed to hear this.

#9174 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Surprised? This is where people create new accounts to say things they won't say themselves... where people create multiple accounts because they've been banned multiple times... where people try to do things in PMs to hide their real mission... where people create anonymous webpages to post stuff they are too chicken @$% to post under their own name...
Trying to sneak into the clubhouse just seems par for the course.

Eh, good points. True.

#9237 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinballs:

I feel the frenzied urge to litigate

LMAO! I don't think I've ever heard someone say that before.

#9253 5 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

Just to bring it back to top of mind:
I am a practicing lawyer in Michigan and would be happy to give a free phone consult with any Predator "investor" about their rights/remedies, and of course happy to represent them to assist in recovery of their monies.
I am currently representing Clients in the matter and have had contact with Mr. Kulek's lawyer, and am quite aware of what is going on.
248-436-4833 x 111
Keith Nathanson

People should accept this generous offer. Quoting again.

2 weeks later
#9290 5 years ago

I want to personally vouch for Keith. I spoke with him today for a good while and he is a sharp guy and totally on top of matters. People should speak with him if they are involved. Cut and paste below (not my writing below):

If you have not done so already NOW is the time! Seriously!!!

Reach out to Keith in MI (lawyer and pinhead that is now VERY aware of the situation at hand) and get in on things that are happening. Much has been happening behind the scenes that can not and should not be discussed anywhere publicly.

If you have had money stolen and no refund, then NOW is the time (seriously, right now! email or call this guy! It will take you very little effort since much of the legwork has already been done). Just get the ball rolling and you will feel better I can tell you that.
248-436-4833 x 111
Keith Nathanson

3 weeks later
#9420 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

LOTS of things are happening. Things that can't and should not be discuss in public.
If you have not done so, I suggest contacting KeithinMI for your free consult.
We are talking a very minimal amount of money to make some things happen. All I can say is you will feel much better once you are standing on this side of the situation.

Whysnow and i disagree on many things. This is not one of them. Get with Keith ASAP and learn about your rights and what the legal system can do for you here.

1 month later
#9435 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

The thing I keep thinking about is how illegal it is the things Kevin Kulek has done and he's getting away with it. Is there no justice in this world?

It is stunning. But go through a traffic stop with an expired inspection sticker and expect to have the book thrown at you with fines and a court date.

#9448 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There is no Debtor's Prison in the USA.

Not true. Don't pay your taxes, watch what happens to you.

#9481 5 years ago
Quoted from SunKing:

However, you don't refuse when an officer asks you to get out of your car.

Actually, if you are asked out of your car I would often advise clients that you decline. If you are ordered out of you car then you are obligated to oblige the order of course, but police will make requests all the time that are not orders and just because they request something does not mean they have the right to order it.

But always obey an order whether you feel they are within their authority or not. It is often important to ask whether a request like "get out of your car" is a request or an order - and there is a legal difference. Also, once an order is given you have the right to stop answering questions.

The above is applicable in Louisiana and Texas. I do not know the laws in other states on police protocols.

#9484 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballKen:

So once they order me to give them my license I can stop answering questions?

I think there are rules pecular to identifying yourself. I've never seen someone try that, I certainly wouldn't recommend it (in Mexico though I believe you should not hand over your passport to Mexican police...).

The entire request vs order thing is usually (actually, from what I've seen always) pertinent when (1) you are asked/ordered to get out of your car in a DUI stop or (2) when you are asked/ordered to allow them to search your car for narcotics. I've never personally heard it being an issue in another situation.

Sorry I've gone so far off topic gang.

3 weeks later
#9613 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Wasn't his first run in with moderators. He was opening threads in the moderator forum too.
I doubt it was frozen because of just one thing.

This is correct, it was a straw/camels back thing. I'm a bit shocked he bought the Predator prototype. I'm interested in hearing more....

Quoted from dgoett:

well, his strolling around spending Predator money was the final straw.
keith has another client.

Yea, I've been owing Keith a call back for a few days. I will give him a ring tomorrow and chat. Keith is great by the way, I highly encourage people to sign up with him. He is knowledgable and a skilled attorney.

#9648 5 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

A little strange that you seem to have just edited your post to remove your comment that you need to unfreeze him and let him respond directly to the accusations and threats here.

Nice try. I did edit my post about it being time to unfreez him; I didn't realize the extent of his ban and he has not served his sentence yet. I am but one of many mods and have been busy this past week so I'm not fully up to speed on all current events. I never said anything about him coming on here to defend himself; I don't care if he does or does not respond - so you are adding to my statement for some reason I don't understand.

If you have further criticism of the moderation bring it to the moderator feedback section. We spent a lot of time trying to work with chili on his various issues, you will get plenty of attention there as well and we would be happy to continue discussions with you there.

Quoted from PinRebel:

As a lawyer, do you believe it is legal to publicly solicit parties to join what could be considered a class action lawsuit in the state of Michigan? To solicit people to provide information on class action litigation? That seems interesting.

You sure about all that? You are holding yourself out as being in the know (of facts and the law) but you don't even realize that Keith hasn't filed a class action. His cases are public record, look them up then report back on what you find if you like.

#9657 5 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

Sorry. It just appeared that you were the person who froze his account so it just seems strange that you were not aware of the extent of his ban or whatever it is.

No worries. I understand why it appeared that way.

Quoted from PinRebel:

I have now made more posts on this site then I think I have done in 3 or more years on RGP and feel like a fish out of water. But I do feel very bad for this guy because from what I knew of him he was a very good guy and well respected. I still know him on Facebook and I saw his post a little while back showing the game. It didn't even cross my mind that it was something controversial.

Understood. No harm no foul. Have a good remainder to your evening.

#9767 5 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

You obviously have no understanding of the legal system dude. He did nothing wrong. Anyone here can build 1 or 2 games of any copyrighted material they want. As someone else said there are apparently a half dozen people on this site publicly doing just that! That is fair use of IP and selling the game for the money you put into building it is not illegal either. Mass producing the game and selling it for profit would have been illegal. But they didn't do that. As far as anyone here knows that I can see Kevin has been reimbursing as many people as he can as fast as he can. You have 15-16 left on this lawsuit with this Keith guy. Maybe 6% of the pre-orders?? WTF?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt two nights ago, but the above statement is so wrong - on so many levels - it is actually trolling (in what is already an awful situation). You are being booted from this thread. Please start a moderator feedback thread, in a polite and respectful manner, so we can gauge whether you should be allowed back into this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

#9953 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

We don't have 'debtors prisons'

I hear this all the time. It is a common myth because we were designed as a country to not have a debtors prisons...but try to avoid paying your pay roll what happens to you.

There are plenty of instances where people lose their freedoms for a period of time because they can't pay money they owe.

1 month later
#10080 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

While everyone waits for at least some of their money back it would be fitting if JPOP & Kevin shared a jail cell.

That would be an interesting conversation to evesdrop on...I just picture Kevin turning JPop into his girlfriend for some reason.

4 weeks later
#10132 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

Well hell...
Would you look at that !! Predator 2 scene.
Some stuff ya just can't make up...

Is that for real?

1 month later
#10215 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The time lag doesn't necessarily mean it's all billable time. Cases can stall until a scheduled court date comes up.

I just want to see a deposition transcript or maybe a video. That right there would be awesome.

1 week later
#10228 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

What ever happened to Pinchilli and the proto Predator that he slithered off with?

This is a very good question. I suspect the machine will turn up sometime.

2 weeks later
#10326 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Probably spent on his lawyer, although more likely he has stiffed him, other then a retainer. I take it no info on if he is currently employed so you could get it that way.

My understanding is Kevin's lawyer quit the case. Before he quit the case he sent me a letter saying the refunds would be processed (obviously has not happened), as I recall. I'll look in my file.

#10330 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

How long ago was that? ......quite a while, right?

Oh yea, that was a while ago. I'll redact the letter and post it next week sometime if anyone is interested.

#10338 4 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Don't encourage him to file bankruptcy. That would be a way form him to wash his hands of it all.
He needs to be convicted of criminal intent so that his house and possessions can be auctioned off to cover the debt.

Intentional torts like the one Kevin appears to have committed are generally excluded from discharge in a bankruptcy (note I am not a bankruptcy attorney so the intricacies of how that works exceed my area of expertise).

#10344 4 years ago

I'll run him on PACER and see on Monday. I don't recall him filing bankruptcy. He would need to notify his creditors if he did file for bankruptcy if he wants a debt discharge...

#10352 4 years ago

Does anyone know if Kevin has a job? How about JPop? At some point these dudes have to run out of the money they have absconded with and get jobs right?

I mean, seriously...people can't just not work for years and years right?

#10354 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Ever visited France?

Good point. I do go to Greece often. I guess it is possible.

4 weeks later
#10403 4 years ago

I'd hate to kick people from this thread, but I will if politics keep getting discussed. Please cease, thanks.

1 week later
#10429 4 years ago
Quoted from Stones:

I missed or forgot about a purchase for 9 of them overseas. That is just terrible.

Let's hope they only paid the $250 deposit for each one. Surely that was the case.

1 week later
#10435 4 years ago

I would love to be in the court room today and hear him explain "the middle truth" to the judge...

#10442 4 years ago

Not surprising at all. He doesn't want to give away publically anything he plans to use in court. No reason to telegraph a punch.

#10448 4 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Request for postponement is likely all that will happen today.

Some judges like to move their dockets and they get graded on how quickly they move their dockets. Hopefully, the judge on this case is like that and will not allow further delay...

#10449 4 years ago

Any word about the results from court today by chance?

#10467 4 years ago

So, no one can give us a full or partial run down of how court went?

1 month later
#10503 4 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

twenty days and no updates.

And we are entering the summer months when the judicial system really slows down.

1 week later
#10541 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Isn't there one predator game he could sell? And experts of dangerous?

I believe he sold that one to a banned Pinsider...

I hope they look at possible fraudulent transfers to his mother and wife...and make him document where all this money went considering he did not make any products...

#10548 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

His legal fees ate it all up

That would potential give his lawyer some liability...especially if a court find Kevin in bad faith.

#10580 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

and depositions have provided all sorts of interesting things.

Are the deposition transcripts under seal or could they theoretically be shared?

#10622 4 years ago
Quoted from shakenbake:

I have also never worked with Kevin although he has called and texted me the past few months asking to build him arcade cabinets. I declined that promptly

That's wild. Basically saying I'm bankrupt but the money I still have left over from screwing people I'd like to go towards my new venture of selling meme arcades under the table...

#10644 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

certain he does.
Having a low credit score makes your car insurance and homeowner's insurance premiums go sky-high (yes, even on a $31,000 house).

Wouldn't the bankruptcy already smash his credit rating pretty solidly?

#10648 4 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

Didn't someone say their house is solely in his wife's name? I assume the insurance policy is too. I'm sure all their credit cards and cars will be in her name too.

It is a shame they do not live in a community property state. Isn't she also a defendant though?

#10661 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

Skit B is probably an S Corp.

There was no corporate shell per my understanding. He designated a name but didn't incorporate (that is my memory anyway). Perhaps it was a joint venture with his wife, mom and the other guy that left the project?

#10718 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Those assholes did hold onto the information for a long time, which then prevented a LOT of people from being able to do a chargeback through paypal.

This is my view. Just revealing the data sixty days earlier would have allowed many more people to do chargebacks.

Quoted from cfh:

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production.

How do we know they were from Texas?

Quoted from goatdan:

I don't think too many people would have been greatly put off if he came forward and said that he thought he had the license, it turns out he did not have what he thought, and o he is going to instead retheme the game to "Alien Hunter" (or whatever), and that it was delayed by a few months because of this. Get to work redecaling or whatever you need to do to the cabinets, program new sounds in your code, and show it. Explain to people that it's still the same game, just because of the licensing snafu, it won't have the official theme.

Nah, it was the theme that sold people on the game. The coding seemed pretty good, in my view, I liked the rule set . . . but the theme'ing is what had people paying for the game.

Quoted from frolic:

Reviewing the chain of events... the website was scrubbed when they had only taken $250 from people. The big money ask came after the scrub.
Hard to defend that.

100% right and this was the big con in my view. Whatever he thought he had he knew he didn't have when he took the website down, but still asked for people's money. People saying his account was frozen by PayPal are only guessing there was still money in it when it was frozen, he might have already moved it all out and the credit card chargebacks that happened might have been consumed by the banks and not the account...he very well may still have a wad of money.

He needed to tell everyone what was happening with the money. He didn't spend 350k going to shows and on a dozen cabinets...

#10720 4 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I saw Tim Fife's pedator, played it too, that game was complete and it was very nice and finished.

Does Tim still have the game? He came into this thread earlier arguing that Kevin did everything right and paid back everyone except the people that were suing him...

#10731 4 years ago
Quoted from Perspex:

I'm curious now as to just how many of the 10 possible machines are out there...certainly nobody would ever admit to owning one.

Those would be worth a lot of money...with only ten in existence and given the history of the machine.

#10744 4 years ago

Kevin claiming he had the license increased everyone's comfort level. If Fox would give him the license then surely it was safe to send him money for a product he got approved.... It's not just that the theme helped him get sales, but the assumption he was competent was in large part based on the false belief we had he went through due diligence with Fox...

#10746 4 years ago

I received my notice in the mail today as well.

I hope the bankruptcy trustee really searches for what happened to all the money and at the very least we get answers about what happened to the PayPal account (I don't believe the money was all in there and got consumed by credit chargebacks as some seem to believe).

#10765 4 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

The lawyer had to be paid and apparently he was paid in some assets (due to lack of money) from Kevin. The story goes that the assets then were bought by an unknown third-party to cash out the lawyer. So some parts to predator are available. Not enough to make a game, not even close. But My intention is to try and gather as much of the parts as possible and then attempt to make a predator.

So you are saying the lawyer has been paid with some of the money Kevin took from us (via selling stuff to the unknown middle man)?

To put this in perspective, in Louisiana if you get mugged for $5,000 and sue the guy who mugged you, and the guy pays his lawyer with the $5,000 he took from you and the lawyer knows that, then the lawyer has some legal concerns. I'm not sure if the laws are the same in the state in question...but based on what Clay is saying we should find out...because if you know all these details so well then the lawyer knows them also one would think.

#10767 4 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Spooky pinball made the playfields and plastics. He was paid in full. Back alley creations made some of the playfield parts. They were paid in full. I don't think you can make these jumps in logic about stolen goods.

There are different rules for lawyers than venders.

Quoted from cfh:

Many invested in a company a.k.a. Kevin. K

We did what? That's crap clay. We paid for an item. We didn't invest in a business.

#10807 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Here, bad debt collectors typically get 95-97% of what they collect. Problem is, they only collect on 30-40% of the bad debt they aquire.

Yep, pretty much that way everywhere. I've never heard of a debt collector receiving less than 75% on what a person views as noncollectable A/R. I think some of the ones that work for credit card companies make less than that percentage.

#10809 4 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

Ramps shouldn't be a problem for some folks.

I think the ramps JPop ran for Magic Girl last year cost $6,000 or so for the vacuum forming and what not...that was for two sets as I recall reading in the thread (obviously they would be much cheaper in larger orders). I wonder if the process you linked to here is any cheaper?

#10829 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

If it continues, there's still the possibility of reclaiming something, even if it's not the total amount in full.

If he doesn't get the discharge the judgement will haunt him a long time as he will have no escape. Garnished wages. Seized income tax returns. Seized insurance Receipts in some circumstances. Etc.

#10847 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

All which require paying lawyers along the way to pursue and people to collect...

Not entirely correct. You need a lawyer to get the debt in judgement form (and even that is not an absolute must, in this thread a guy went and got a judgement on his own without an attorney), but there are debt collection agencies that will do the chasing post judgment.

Your point that it is nevertheless time consuming and expensive is of course true.

#10864 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

that getting a C&D does not always mean you are in the wrong

It certainly does in this case. It means he knew he didn't have the license before he had us pay deposits...any good faith or stupidity argument he can make is out the window after the C&D for sure.

#10866 4 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

Just curious, but either way it was not illegal for him to do so was it? Under a C&D is it illegal to continue working (even taking money) while he tries to resolve the issue. Was he obligated to communicate he may have had license issues? I would think the only actual illegal thing would have been to actually ship the game before reconciling the license issue?

The primary theory is fraudulent inducement: he said he had a license for everything and even the art was approved by Fox and what not, he received a C&D letter saying he didn't, then he took in money from us. Yes, what he did was not legal, we were defrauded out of money. Now he's in bankruptcy trying to stop a slew of judgements from piling up on him.

#10869 4 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

So, in this particular case is it possible to prove fraud in a civil court and that can result in criminal charges?

I'm not sure. That's a good question for Keith. It's always risky to mix criminal and civil charges due to the defendants alleging extortion against the civil claimants.

I'm not involved in the case by the way. I've written off my $250 in my mind long ago.

#10899 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Agreed, but my point being just because someone sends you a C&D does not mean they are in the right and you are in the wrong. I've been in situations where someone sent one trying to claim we were in violation of a patent, clearly hoping to get us to pay them a licensing fee. We felt otherwise, had our lawyer tell them why we felt we were not, and they went away.

Agreed 100%. There are many frivolous C&D letters sent. In this instance though the C&D is dispositive of the issue. He said Fox issued him a license and fox effectively said no we did not, knock off what you are doing. Yet he still took our money saying he was licensed.

Alleging he was going to be working on the license later doesn't change the fraudulent inducement.

What really ticks me off at Kevin is he won't come on here and explain what happened to all the money he took in. I'm sure all the lawyers he has engaged over the past year have told him not to talk to us (the people he scammed) and just pay them money to solve his problems...

2 weeks later
#10940 4 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

I do not think they can feel any worse then they already do.

In my experience people like Kevin feel no remorse for their actions at all. They don't care who is hurt by their deciet, they only care about how it impacts them. You act like he cries himself to sleep at night, he hasn't even apologized or said what happened with all the money.

He needs to detail it out, to Keith, and he owes people an explanation of why they didn't get a refund and what he did with the money for the game he sold to Crazybanana or whatever his name here was...

I think Kevin listened to his lawyers to closely. I bet they all told him not to talk to his victims and not to try and reimburse the money "till the court rules" or something like that, screw all of us..."only do what a court makes you do", I can hear the crap now...

#10943 4 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

I agree with this. Gtfo under your shill account, whoever you are.

I'm going to leave him in the thread if he wants to keep talking...for now anyway.

#10988 4 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

I'm confident TigerLaw knows who I am as of several weeks ago and knows I'm obviously not Kevin.

I certainly have my suspicions. I'm in Greece and not able to confirm right now. I don't believe you are Kevin.

Quoted from HappyDayz:

Are you not a lawyer? It's a little curious why you would assume his lawyer would give him that advice?

I'm not a litigator but I've had enough expierence with litigators to have a decent idea of what was said to Kevin. "Don't talk to anyone" is pretty standard in litigation. Also, telling him to let the courts sort out who is to be paid back what wouldn't seem unreasonable at first glance to hear said due to different amount of money being owed to different people and the likely deplorable way Kevin probably kept records (he possibly didn't know who he owed what to in any specific sense).

Litigation attorneys think of the world in relation to the case they are working. They rarely look at matters from the big picture standpoint. I've seen, numerous times, litigators win a lawsuit but totally destroy their own client in the process because just commencing the litigation course practically had the other parties exercise non-judicial remedies and smoke their client (I'm not talking about violence in any way, usually it is business related stuff, an employee sues an employer for some type of wrong, win the case but then find out no one will ever hire them or their spouse again - for example).

Here's the problem with Kevin from a practical standpoint, no one was paid back anything from Kevin. Not one red cent. The fact that some people were fortunate enough to get charge backs from the credit card companies is wonderful, but that is not Kevin reimbursing any money.

Here are the big mistakes Kevin made after the gig was up:

1) he went silent and never came out and clarified what happened to the money in relation to the chargebacks. If the money was in a paypal account that got significantly blasted during the charge backs by the people that were fortunate enough to get chargebacks and PayPal took penalty payments from the account in addition to the chargebacks then Kevin should have come out and said so.

Instead of Kevin said nothing, all of us victims are left to ponder whether it was the credit card companies / PayPal that had to eat the chargebacks or whether it was the account Kevin had that got hit. Did Kevin move out the money before the chargebacks hit? If so, was the money moved into a linked account? If so, did the credit card companies and PayPal get to the account and reimburse themselves (plus penalties and fees) out of the account for the chargebacks they paid out?

With Kevin's silence our assumption is the chargebacks had no impact on the money Kevin had because surely if the credit card companies and PayPal ate up everything in fees and penalties he would have said so right?

2) Kevin needed to fess up about what was spent during R&D, promotion, and limited production. He needed to say how much of the deposit money he used going to shows (they aren't free) buying parts.

Due to Kevin's silence the assumption is he spent a lot of the money having a good time traveling to Dallas, Seattle, Chicago, etc. to promote the machine. This is what it is, but he needs to break down what he spent the money on at the shows to illustrate it was reasonable and he didn't spend our money at strip clubs. He needs to say what he spent for the cabinets, what he paid the artist, what he paid whoever and if the person is related to him just come out and say so even if he thinks it makes him look bad (he should accept he already looks bad and he now can only mitigate matters).

3) While I get that he felt he "had" to tell law enforcement whatever he told them to stay out of jail, he should not have antagonized the pinball community by lying about the game still being in production and telling us he was trying to work out things with Fox and make the game still. We all knew that was bullshit and that no material discussions were being had with Fox at that point and he was merely posturing/grandstanding but we viewed it as him trying to keep whatever he had left because we knew the game would not be made. It made us know he had no intention of paying us back and that pissed us all off.

4) He needed to fess up about his likely accounting problem. He needed to inform everyone his books and records were so bad he was not certain who paid what and when it was paid. He needed to fess up that the chargebacks totally confused him as to what was owed and to who to make people partially whole and he needed to hire someone to help him. He didn't need an attorney, necessarily, for this function but he needed a book keeper to go through things.

5) He should not have sat back and waited for the courts to decide anything. He should have worked with the accounting person to figure out who hadn't received back any money and figured out a less than satisfactory but roughly fair way to divide out what money was left and pay it out pro rata without any stipulations. Him saying: "sorry, I only have X left and I'm paying it out using this formula that an accountant gave me and that's the best I can do, sorry I spent so much of the extra money and sorry PayPal charged fees and penalties against the money i planned to reimburse you all with but nothing I can do about it, I'm a fool and was not ready for this", would have gone a long way.

6) Bankruptcy appeared to be inevitable for him the moment the project collapsed. He needed to accept that idea early on and live with it but done what is right and used whatever money he had left to reimburse people something, pennies on the dollar would have a least been something. He delayed his bankruptcy filing too long and we believe he squandered our money paying his attorneys for his benefit and didn't spend any money trying to figure out how to pay us back.

Anyway, I personally feel that Kevin has been in super bad faith. I feel he made poor decisions and owes us not just our money but one hell of an explanation. He needs to drop the act about the license and how he thought he had it even after he scrubbed his webpage, we don't believe him on this point and it makes his position look even worse to us. I can accept that he thought his fair use letter was a license initially, but bullshit like him thinking he had the art approved and what not makes him look ridiculous and like an even bigger lier.

All the above is just my personal opinion, as a victim. It does not reflect Pinside and is certainly not legal advice to anyone from me.

#11076 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Good idea, take away all the money they have to pay everyone back!

They have no intention of paying anyone back based on their actions thus far...I can say with confidence whatever comes from that business is not going into a piggy bank that they plan to use to make us whole.

#11112 4 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

The man has filed for bankruptcy.
Why are you guys willing to spend more money on money that you will never see again?

There are other people than just he who may have liability. His mother, his wife, and his original joint venture partner have not filed bankruptcy.

#11131 4 years ago

Here is an interesting question:

When do you guys think Stern knew the license for Predator was bogus? Stern goes to all the licensing shows and events, surely they inquired at some level and knew there was no license.

By no means am I saying Stern had an obligation to do anything one way or the other, I'm just pondering on when they knew as I bet it was prior to us.

#11133 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I knew it he second he scrubbed his website and YouTube of anything Predator related. Wasn't that like a year or more before everything fell apart.

Yes it was.

Quoted from Rarehero:I guarantee Stern knew he didn't have it, as they work with Fox for licensing (FGY, 24, Avatar)

That's what I'm thinking as well. They knew from the beginning is my bet.

#11136 4 years ago

The next question is, if Stern knew (and it sounds like we believe they did) did Stern inform anyone? Any of their distirbutors perhaps? Other people?

How about Rick at Planetary? Think he knew? Think Stern told him? They do work together closely according to Rick. Rick proports to be and holds himself out as a giant "moral fiber" guy, if he knew surely he would have informed us instantly right?

#11235 4 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

If Tim bought the game from Kevin then Kevin has to declare that money and pay taxes correct?

Technically correct, but Kevin will likely claim he had a tax basis in the object higher than what he collected on the sale.

There are rules with regards to selling items that infringe on IP but from the perspective of the IRS those rules do not impact reporting obligations.

#11240 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Those machines will always be a black mark for whomever owns them, and I'm not personally ever going to let up on that unless all of the people that got screwed say that it's OK for a machine to be owned by someone else.
It's a real dick move to own one of the machines... What an insult to people who lost thousands.

While I generally agree with this, I would make an exception for the machines if they appeared at the PHOF (or similar location)...that would not bother me.

#11247 4 years ago
Quoted from Hawkeyepin:

It serves no useful purpose.

Can't close this thread, it would just result in new spin out threads where people who just learned of the situation needed the entire thing re-hashed and where people who already drained this thread would have to drain a new thread.

This is one of Pinside's most favorited (and most drained) threads for a reason, for that reason the thread will remain open.

#11271 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Keeping it open reminds me that there are a bunch of people with more money than sense that got suckered into sending this clown money,

Quoted from o-din:

People that throw money away can usually afford to be stupid.

Odin: you can probably understand how these statements may be somewhat offensive to us guys that got duped? You are basically saying if we got scammed that's okay because we could afford it...which is not particularly a nice statement.

Perhaps I am misreading what you are saying in some way, but best to move on from that line of discussion, yea?

#11303 4 years ago

Somewhat of a topic direction change:

Surely Kevin still has some people he communicates with and that know what he is up to these days. Is he job hunting or is he not looking for any employment? How about his old partner Aaron? Does he have a job?

#11317 4 years ago
Quoted from PaulCoff:

What happened to the Duck Hunt Pin?

I was wondering this as well. Did that game belong to Aaron or Kevin?

#11363 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

This is fan art.
No one has to know who made the playfields.
We could even update the artwork.....

Just don't look into a mirror at midnight at the time of a new moon and repeat the word Predator three times.

#11417 4 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

All the angry villagers are ready to burn anyone at the stake even if said person had nothing to do with taking anybodies money or anything to do with the scandal at all. I mean I do understand the anger that you got ripped off and now somebody has possession of a machine, but really its just anger directed at the wrong person.

You may possibly be misunderstanding why some of the people who were defrauded are upset.

I would guess the reason the people who funded Kevin would generally be irritated at the people who have the parts today is likely because these parts ultimately came from Kevin... The assumption would be that the people who now have the parts gave Kevin something (ie. money) to get the parts and Kevin is now using that money to defend himself against the original people he defrauded to defend himself from the original people's efforts to recover their own money (which is what Kevin used to make the parts).

Ergo, the original owners know the people who now have the parts did not partake in the initial defrauding, but they are possessing what the original owners paid for and they acquired those items by giving something of value to Kevin that Kevin is now using against the original owners.

Yes, I know some people may have purchased parts from people who purchased parts from Kevin (meaning they did not personally hand Kevin money that he is now using against the plaintiffs), but how would one differentiate who gave money to Kevin vs. who acquired the parts downstream.