(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

4 years ago

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  • Latest reply 70 days ago by Cobra99
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86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)

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#62 4 years ago
Quoted from JoinTheCirqus:

Hm, you might want to grow a little thicker skin, just sayin'..

You might want to learn to follow the house rules when playing in someone else's sandbox.

3 weeks later
#340 4 years ago
Quoted from JoinTheCirqus:

Hm, whose house are we talking about here? Just because it says "official" in the thread title?
Color me impressed!

The rules on personal attacks and decorum apply to all threads on the site. You don't get to be an ass and just tell people to 'just get a thicker skin'

3 months later
#3190 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

You can do the simple math Aurich.
Take the other game, minus profits, minus parts that are well above and beyond what Predator needs, and you can get to a pretty good understanding of what each game would cost in materials.
Predator is 100% feasible at $4750. It does not leave much for profit but their is still profit.

So pinside can listen to backseat cheerleaders like Whysnow... who has zero experience building pinball machines, but may have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express in the last month... or we can listen to Ben Heck, who has actually built games, done a boutique game and got it to market, is involved with a company ACTUALLY MAKING GAMES, done custom games, and countless other REAL PROJECTS.

Who do you think we should believe? Oh, and Ben doesn't agree with you. But maybe if you keep saying it 50 more times you might really convince... someone.

#4379 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

"Mr. X" just emailed me. He said that since Pinball News had gone live, so would he. Included this link in his email. I am working at the moment in a night club and have not had time to read.

and now we watch one of the biggest threads go freaking nuclear... people who weren't on since last week will have no hope in catching up

#4385 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

You're a day late with that one. You're going to have to own up to your part of this, trying to temper people while you knew exactly what was going on.

I've not understood why anyone gave him this new found credibility... where is his history and proven track record of success and solid practice? He sure seems to be doing alot of 'advising' recently... funny coming from the guy still trying to get his first pin product out.

#4416 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

He's been pushed as the guy to save jpop as well. People talking big before they've produced anything is what got us to where we are today.

Before Rick at PPS named him in Rick's new scheme in how they plan on usurping the hardware already on the market.. who had heard of Aaron or his Fast Pinball? For someone still trying to get their own product out and established in the product he sure has been running around playing 'business and industry adviser' quite publicly... well now his eagerness has gotten him quite a black eye.

#4424 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Just fyi
PayPal won't help you near as well as your CC

Once the scam is pretty public, PP is not that bad. They have their image as well and their relations with the CC companies. Maybe they have insurance for this kind of stuff if the account can't be drained to fund the requests.

I've seen it with ebay scammers... once they take down the profile, refunds flow freely

#4523 4 years ago
Quoted from Apollyon:

To the extent that Whysnow knew about the licensing problems, and took issue with people exposing SkitB's deception, that seems greasy. Like he wanted people to just shut up and let SkitB get the first 10 unlicensed games out (likely one of which to him).

Doubtful... Its probably just his head in sand approach. The guy has proven time and time again he puts emotions and his perceived reality above any actual facts. He'll go down shooting all the way to crashing into the ground. Name your topic.. MMR, JPOP, Skit-B, DP, IPFA, Stern games, etc.

The only thing left that might be surprising is if he ever does change.

#4528 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

How many married couples do you know that only put one person on a title?

only those planning for financial raids.. like bankruptcy

#4900 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Ouch. I got "The claim is closed because it was opened more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet the filing criteria." Since I paid before they extended their policy to 180 days... Hope the CC company comes through...

You gotta call for the special cases...

#4908 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I agree, but I don't think for a second, that Kevin was at any time trying to purposely rip off the people supporting him and wanting the game. I really think he just wanted to make it happen and didn't cover all his bases, or didn't have the means to get everything he needed. If he wanted to pull this off, he should have made the games first. Then sold them, as they were ready to go out the door. 30 days max, and all the games would have been revealed, and sold, and done. the issue probably would have never came up, and it would have been under the radar.

Except you are glossing over the whole LYING part.

It's one thing to say 'yeah, these parts aren't licensed... you still want them right?' - vs this guy
Lying about what is actually happening.. what they have.. etc

#5042 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Actually, they have houses for $500-750 in MI as well. I saw 4 of them on ebay not to long ago, and they closed at $500 each. Didn't look that bad either, but were in the heart of the Ghetto. Not hard to find a $2000-4000 house around detroit.

Oh look.. the King of Pin-values has moved into real estate appraising now too.

#5045 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I like the stock analogy better. It's more to the truth than anything else. You are putting money into something that has yet to be made. Plenty of companies go belly up trying to make a product and find out costs are higher than expected. Everyone that put into that company loses their ass when shit fall apart. This is no different.

Except companies put together a prospectus to outline their plan and business. That knowledge is given to potential investors. People make the decision based on their info provided and their own research.

Starting to sound familiar?

But while a company may fail to achieve their goals and go down with all their investor's money... that's normal life. If they LIE about what they have in the prospectus - then its FRAUD. Kind of like, Kevin LYING about his project - repeatedly.

You can't get it through your noggin... the idea of failing is not what matters here or draws any parallels... it's about the business LYING and misrepresenting themselves - which leads to the failure. Every time you skip over that part in your stories... you make yourself look like a bigger idiot.

#5050 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Did you even read my example? it's the same damn thing. In my example. the project coordinator fudges the numbers to make production work. (basically lying about the cost of production to investors) . I've seen it before. I've seen companies fail because of this exact same thing. They think they can figure it out or find another way down the road, and it ends up killing them in the end.

Companies failing because they failed to execute (was your example) - that is not the same thing.

Then you come back and say 'execs fudge the numbers.. and then fail' - that is fraud and similar to skit-b.. and those people get sued and often go to jail.

That does not mean this is the same as investing in companies that fail - because Scenario A and Scenario B are very different. One is failure, one is fraud. Learn the #$^ difference.

#5054 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?
Pro Audio Spectrum
ESST Technologies

Failure != fraud
Underestimating things with the correct intentions != fraud
Companies failing to execute != fraud

FUDGING the numbers intentional to deceive = FRAUD
LYING to your investors to deceive = FRAUD

I can't believe people don't know the #@$^ difference between criminal activity and companies failing.

#5067 4 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I guess we need to know what 'shut down' means....does it mean deleted, or frozen?

Usually frozen.

One thing Paypal is good at is.. is ensuring THEY get their money. You can't just close your paypal account and think you are home free. By linking to your bank account, they have a lot more hooks in you than you might think.

#5072 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

But I will say again, people TRIED to bring this information to light for months and they were criticized as "conspiracy nuts" or "just trying to bring a good man down", etc, etc. You need to ask yourself- how much more evidence would some of the zealots here believe?

But was that simply a broken clock is right twice a day?

We should be sure to differentiate between something someone KNEW vs what they were SPECULATING and happened to be right.

People had all kinds of theories and concerns... and no matter how right they might have been, if they started without references or research.. then they are still simply speculating.

Obviously some people were trying to do their dilligence before spewing half information or onesided stories. Kudos to that. The amount of people that are advocating you should be sharing unvetted information 'to save the buyers' is insane.

Floods of inaccurate information is even more damaging than the alternative.

#5172 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

that's exactly what my business example said. To a tee. You need to learn to read.

I need to learn to read? Maybe you need to learn to communicate? Once again.. here is your post

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I like the stock analogy better. It's more to the truth than anything else. You are putting money into something that has yet to be made. Plenty of companies go belly up trying to make a product and find out costs are higher than expected. Everyone that put into that company loses their ass when shit fall apart. This is no different.

Where in there does it talk about FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY causing them to fail? 'finding out costs are higher than expected' is not fraud. Stupidity is not fraud (tho one could argue negligence and the liability that came come with that depending on your role). 'higher than expected' is not the same thing as DECEPTION and LYING.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Lying about licensing or lying about manufacturing costs/tooling, is pretty much the same damn thing and happens all the time with new business, when they are trying to get backers. The story wasn't that complicated, my example wasn't that complicated. Pretty straight forward yet, there are many who seem to can't read worth a shit.

Point the finger.. when you should be looking for a mirror. Saying investing in stocks or startups is the same thing as backing a fraud is right up there with your past Top 10 Dumbest things Neo rants about.

#5306 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

It is when you damn well know the numbers arn't going to work before you even start. Before you even have a company. You fudge your numbers on paper, it's the same damn thing. Why don't you quote my post where I go through the hypothetical business model step by step. You seem to magically avoid that post altogether.

Because the follow-on posts were not the same thing. You are taking a subset of a situation and applying it to the broader definition. It's so damn flawed I can't believe after what must be a dozen people pointing it out you still plod on. I'll stop because obviously there is no helping you and the rest of the world obviously gets it.

#5566 4 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Hammer meet nail.
I am angry at Kevin, but I am also disappointed with the mods. Mcluvin is correct, providing a neutral statement was the right thing to do here.

I'm going to anonymous send the mod team a list of pinside handles that I believe are convicted conmen. Do you expect the mods to repost that unsubstantiated claim with a 'neutral statement' saying "it has been brought to our attention, through a source we can not identify that these people are unworthy of dealing with on pinside - but we can't confirm or deny who these people are"

You can't take your position of authority and spread unsubstantiated rumors... even if you say they are unconfirmed... because simply you saying them carries authority.

#5580 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

Because my whole opinion/argument is based on him "not" wanting to scam people from the beginning and doing this out of true passion and heart. I just don't see any traces of this being a pure scam from the start.

There is no way any grown adult in this industry who has been around for more than 6 months and is interested in making things does not have any awareness of the idea of 'intellectual property'. FFS.. we deal in a market where 'licensed' vs 'unlicensed' titles is a weekly topic.

There is absolutely zero chance a person like Kevin goes 'wow, I want to make a game based on a movie..' and doesn't have any notion that licensing is needed. The guy repeatedly (even from the start) argued they had the legal standing to do the game - so he was aware of the topic. There isn't any chance at all this dawned on him later.

Now do people all the time misunderstand licensing and what is needed... certainly.

I think you are trying to defend some position that you think people are saying Kevin was out to steal everyone's money from the start - that's not what people are saying. What they are saying is he was lying about his project all along, and hence misleading people and getting them to buy into something that sold on false pretenses. Hence.. 'scam'.

If I setup shop and try to sell you all translites that I claim are NOS... and later people find out they are in fact reproductions.. it's a scam, regardless of any fact over me shipping the product out or not. It was sold under false pretenses... just like Predator

#5910 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Exactly and it seems the more I read from the "anonymous", the more it seems like their only intent is to screw over people trying to get refunds

IMHO... I think they are seeking vindication more than anything. They got ripped over and over here about not falling in line and drinking the koolaid. Now they want this moment...


#5914 4 years ago
Quoted from Cobra99:

I applaud the initial effort but this is where the beans should of been spilled and let everyone try to get refunds. The AG stinks and reeks of entitlement and cowardice.

"TRY" being the key word. If there was a run on the bank (like there is now) - who is to say he would have had the means to issue refunds in December? People need to realize the only real difference between NOW and maybe December would have been any cash burn. Do you really think they've been busy building stuff over the last 4months?

The constraints on issuing refunds isn't tied to the timing of the news breaking now. The same problems would have been happening in December too.

And the team did not make this discovery.. get their funds out.. and then sit on it. The story as they told it was the two with refunds got out PRIOR to license-gate, and one of them was still stuck in limbo waiting for a refund.

Instead of pointing the finger at the whistleblowers... one can easily say, why didn't Kevin pull the ripcord and issue refunds on his own at that point in the fall of 2014 when he clearly knew people were onto the lies?

Ask yourself... what would have changed if the PBN story ran in Dec instead of March?

#5966 4 years ago
Quoted from Cobra99:

For some the four months could of helped the dispute/charge back to not expired.

That is a legitimate concern and point.

#5967 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Cause not everyone uses credit cards, I don't use credit cards unless I absolutely have to and I also dont have any credit cards that are over a 3k limit because I don't use them

You can also live in an outhouse... but we aren't going to change the expectation that most people here have running water. Seriously.. unless due to some former life choice you can't have credit - stop using debit cards and use someone else's money.

#6012 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Or, and I'm just spitballin' here, we could all live within our means. Example: I use my debit card, PayPal uses my 'pp' savings account so they can't screw up my primary accounts.
I have a 10 grand CC, never use it unless traveling, which I do very rarely.
Debit cards are a great way to live well without worrying about paying interest at the next billing cycle if your late with payments.

You don't pay interest on a credit card unless you don't pay your balance.
You don't worry about being late if you live within your means. You shouldn't need a hard limit like 'card declined' to know how to do that.
By using the credit card you can manage your cash flow in and out much better.. AND get paid to do it (1-2% right off the top).

Using credit cards does not mean 'spend more' - it means manage your cash flow better. There is no reason to pay cash for everything as a consumer when they are willing to take credit at their expense.

Debit cards are getting better with CC-like 'fraud protection' but you still have to deal with your actual cash being out or locked up... when you don't with Credit Cards.

#6014 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

not when it can get out of hand. do u realise how many million people, mismanage their credit>?
if its there, use it kinda thing...

If you really are at that kind of risk.. is buy $5-$8k toys really that smart of an idea?

If you can't control yourself.. then face the problem and put reasonable limits on your cards to force yourself to stay within them.

Debt Visa cards were great for people not old enough to get credit cards, or those who need a secured version due to past credit (or no credit) issues. Anyone using them long term really need to face the music and start their own financial coaching/practice.

I can't help myself with spending.. and "i'm buying predator" from the same people... is damn scary.

1 week later
#6847 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

If he already transferred the money to his bank account, PayPal can't do anything

Guess you've never been on the receiving end of Paypal's 'suck' ability...

#7007 4 years ago
Quoted from PaulLang76:

It was clearly malice. If not, why stop at saving Fox's IP?

Because it was never sbout protecting fox mr new account... But that was the way to expose the lies

#7039 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

But the constant bashing and blatant piling-on of how awful the Predator game was by you since the project failed has rubbed me the wrong way as completely unprofessional

What? Now that it's in the past he can't tell us how he really felt? Maybe he has been professional all along by not slamming it while it was viable.. but now that it's dead and in the past he can actually open up.

I find this 'insult' almost comical given the amount of crap throwing that happens constantly about games being good or not... and now you want to say Ben shouldn't give his opinion because... he's actually got practical experience DOING IT? Unlike 99.999% of the posters here? Can you step back and look at that again???

Quoted from blondetall:

It reeks of a bitter rival gloating that the competition failed and rubbing it in the faces of buyers to prove that they backed the wrong machine

I'm sorry, your post comes across as the polar opposite to me. Its a 'don't harm the snowflake' and a reader taking offense because they have to face something - not that someone is rubbing it in your face.

Would you stop buying Stern games if SteveR came in and said "yeah, that predator game wasn't very good"?

I appreciate Ben's comments because they come from someone who actually has walked in their shoes and knows the process... and didn't just stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

#7040 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

So, if you had had money in this and had gotten ripped off by Kevin, you still would maintain that same sentiment? Especially, when the person makes multiple posts, in numerous threads, about how the game that you put money into 'sucked ass but at least they brought it to shows' and never would have 'made it' no matter what?
That's some serious Monday morning quarterbacking, especially posting it in a thread where everyone is still trying to get any portion of their money back. Sorry I didn't invest in your company, but f*(k off with the "I knew it all along" attitude that only came out after the proverbial shit hit the fan.

Would you like a cookie as a consolidation gift? Maybe a group vigil planned?

The butthurt is strong in this thread today...

#7072 4 years ago
Quoted from Cobra99:

Yes and the same rules apply. Makes me think twice about buy a JJP machine.

So you instead prefer a world where everyone just blows smoke up your rear to make sure they don't offend anyone.. and aren't allowed to speak their mind.


#7112 4 years ago
Quoted from Dalbok:

There is another view to be taken on the timing of their announcement though. Based on everything that's been said to date this machine was never going to make it to production. If that is a true statement and the AG never said anything at all then the folks that were able to successfully able to issue chargebacks may have run out of time as well, so they may have in fact saved that group of people. No matter when the facts were discovered/announced there would still be a pool of people that would be past their 180 day limits. I'm happy for those that have been able to recoup their money and I hope something gets worked out for everyone else that's caught up in this.

People dont care about others... Only their situation. Logic doesnt apply...

#7196 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

The music industry went after users for their intellectual property.

The napster situation is entirely different. The downloaders effectively were 'kevin' in this situation as they were the ones making unauthorized copies. Here you have people buying an unauthorized game- not 250 people each violating the copyrights.

Worst case is fox would win a ruling that ordered all the games destroyed... But they wouldn't come knocking on doors to enforce it. It's not worth anyone's time. And police would not go running around trying to enforce that order. Fox would never bother spending money running everyone down. They'd send nasty letters making demands and that would be the end of it unless you started trying to make a big splash with them.

No one goes door to door collecting all the fake Louis v. Handbags when cbp busts yet another counterfiter

#7204 4 years ago
Quoted from absocountry2:

If they went after Kevin and Kevin lost, the ruling would normally be in the form of a lump of money. That money would the cost of the IP to Kevin and stopping there because that basically is his IP fee - done. It is basically paying Fox to make it right. The problem with this is the fee is going to cost more per unit since there is no negotiating. To make more he would need to secure the license for those outside the issue.

No - that would only be if there was a settlement... damages awarded do not legitimize what was done. They would be typically be ordered to stop all production and destroy any offending product. But again, no one goes after the product that is already distributed.. it's impractical.

#7665 4 years ago

That PBN article killed any notion this guy was innocently making mistakes and puts him fully in the corner of someone with issues... psychological issues.

The trail of flat out lies and misleading is undeniable.. yet he plods on trying to make people think 'if you just give me an inch...' everything will be cheeky. No one in their right mind can continue that trail of lies... and yet here he is again with no specifics, just give me some more time.

If the situation to date hasn't lowered the boom and made him wake the F up... obviously nothing will.

Complete lost cause - I can only hope for some criminal charges and a conviction to give people some satisfaction.

#7795 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Most likely he claimed nonprofit status because fox was allowing the ip to be used in a non-profit situation at a lower cost or no cost - just my guess

Most likely... he used the LABEL non-profit... but didn't actually do any legal entity setup at all, or even try.

If the guy couldn't get basics setup to protect his personal liability... do we really think he worked through the filing and legal requirements to be a registered non-profit?

I'd chock this up to yet another one of his lies intended to obfuscate what really was happening.

#8006 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

Can anyone answer his question:
After the credit card company gives you a chargeback, do they then in turn go after Kevin?

They go after the merchant.. in this case Paypal. This is the liability that someone who takes Credit Cards for purchases has to face.

This is why once we started having middle-men for handling credit card purchases (like square, paypal, etc) - things have gotten more complex. Your CC deals with paypal... paypal has its OWN policies for dealing with it's account holders. Paypal is trying to protect IT'S relationship with the credit card companies.. not the relationship with its account holders.. they have millions of them. So Paypal is usually cutthroat with its account holders.. even if you aren't in the wrong.

Hence, why sellers hate paypal.

1 week later
#8217 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

If we could drown him in 200 civil claims...that would be optimal.

While that would be the most 'pain' you can induce.. it won't actually help you get your money sooner, or more of it. You're just throwing more noise into the legal system, more lawyer costs, and more reasons for a judge to push your need further down the list.

You're losing sight of what is most people's top objective... getting their money back. Punishing Kevin is secondary to most.

#8268 4 years ago


#8274 4 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Is this the longest thread in Pinside history, or close to it?

had clicked on wrong tab when posting

#8302 4 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

You can bet the credit card companies are going to go after Kevin Kulek, they are not going to take these chargebacks lying down.

The credit card companies have no relationship with Kevin - they would have to go after paypal. That's the burden paypal has, and why they are so cut-throat with their users.

#8384 4 years ago

The ability of a card company funding a chargeback has zero to do with what is in SkitB's paypal account. The Card company has no relationship with SkitB, nor that specific 'bucket' within Paypal. The Card company deals with Paypal as the merchant, and how they exchange money at their merchant banking level. The 'what money is in the account' discussion has relevancy only within the paypal world and it's customers.

Paypal gets dinged for chargebacks REGARDLESS of what is in someone's account.. hence why they are so aggressive in 'taking money back' even after it leaves paypal.

The success of a charge back is going to be dependent on your card company, their policies, and your timing.

2 weeks later
#8546 4 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Now, the magistrate inquired about the other refunds due to all the other customers and Kevin responded that they (he and his attorney I assume) are working through that process and it should take 60 to 90 days.
Now, the criminal investigation apparently has been concluded without any findings of criminal activity. This investigation was given as part of the reasoning behind the slide in production schedule. Negotiations with the IP owner were not completely exhausted, so something may be worked out (unlikely I think). PayPal is the trustee of the funds that have been collected.

First thanks for sharing your experience.
It's disappointing to hear like the stall tactics are working to defuse any criminal or civil forcing of the issue. Investigation stalling production?? Shouldn't something be moving to be stalled? 60-90 days to process refunds for money he's supposed to already have? Did the judge challenge the claim the money existed? Do you know if the detective did any validation of that?

I'm sure his general defense is 'things aren't done yet!' so they back off giving him more time. Yet, the whole misleading and non-action from before, and missed promises all seem to go unaddressed.

It doesn't take 60-90 days to go through a spreadsheet of <250 people.. even if you were cutting manual checks. Instead he's probably locked up to all the real business of paypal locking him down.

2 weeks later
#9041 4 years ago

Imagine how much less anger and inflammatory stuff there would be on the forum without just two or so ppl

Attacking vendors for doing work = deplorable

Demanding businesses disclose specific business details? Wth...you guys make up unrealistic stuff knowing it wont happen

#9051 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Plenty of litigation and criminal investigation going on right now. That's what happens, questions get asked, its how they conduct an investigation.

Does that mean you are adding DETECTIVE to your list on your website now too?

Thank god you are hear to offer up your services yet again

#9097 4 years ago
Quoted from Code_Blue:

Very damning of Virtual Pin...Based on that comment alone any common sense inference would be that VP had seen and checked out the license documentation and found it on good legal ground.

Why aren't people going after the show promoters who allow skitB to come and solicit sales for an unlicensed product the same? Are they culpable as well for failing to further scrutinize skitB's assertions of legitimacy?

Or pinside for that matter?

Funny how people can be so opinionated about virtuapin but not others. I know they have the extra bit about trying to say they were legit... But so did everyone through their actions.

#9142 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Ayyyyyy, how many of those promoters directly addressed the issue head-on, and were so assured in their response like 'Noah'?

How many were called to the carpet on pinside like Noah and forced to say one way or another? Their is an expectation of legitimacy and legal for vendors who have paid to be at the show. One could say loosely the same for pinside. Do you think a standing for sale ad for bootleg parts would last long on the site?

Everyone wanted to believe these guys... they lied for their convenience over and over and over to convince people. They leaned on other people's credibility to advance their own. The guys weaved stories to be convincing.. and duped many.

People are going over the top when they look at those who were duped -- and leap into making them conspirators solely because they failed to expose the lies.

#9173 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Wow! Can you give us some examples of the stunts they pulled? I'm disappointed to hear this.

Surprised? This is where people create new accounts to say things they won't say themselves... where people create multiple accounts because they've been banned multiple times... where people try to do things in PMs to hide their real mission... where people create anonymous webpages to post stuff they are too chicken @$% to post under their own name...

Trying to sneak into the clubhouse just seems par for the course.

3 months later
#9674 3 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

The owner of the machine is Fox. They will probably have it confiscated and no money returned to anyone.

They have no claim to the machine at all. Just claims to the IP to argue the machine is unauthorized should be destroyed.

The only thing preventing Kevin from selling any of his stuff is the argument over where the proceeds are going. There is no bankruptcy proceeding going on... there are no liens (that we know of) going on... the guy is free to liquidate any of his assets as needed to pay the bills. The only issue with selling the prototype is that it is still, unlicensed, copyrighted stuff...

pre-order people have no claim to any of the games and never will. They'll be able to make claims over money owed.. and ultimately file liens/etc to try to recover it.. but even then the guy will be free to liquidate stuff to pay bills. The change will be once those kinds of claims are in place.. there will be scrutiny over attempts to hide or move assets. But since it seems this guy didn't have any kind of business entity setup... it stands to get real messy.

#9719 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Haymaker makes some valid points in my opinion. And well presented also. But I still believe that Pinchili will be subpoenaed and have to explain in court the who, what, where, when, how and why. And if Kevin is found by the courts to be hiding assets or manipulating evidence or whatever, he's screwed. And Pinchili could very well be dragged down with him. At a minimum he will have to hire a lawyer, spend time in court, depositions and he may ultimately have to forfeit the machine.

Selling personal assets isn't illegal. If you give your neighbor $20 for beer... and he sells his car... you don't get to claim his car if he failed to give you any beer. Kevin's assets aren't under seizure or been frozen. He can buy/sell/travel as he wants. The most he has against him right now are small claims judgements. Which he can obviously claim he needs to raise capital for. Until there are actions to force collection or force liquidation... kevin just owes money.

Worst case is someone will interview pinchilli where he got the game, from who, and what he paid. Court and dispositions only come into play when someone wants to get the dirt in front of the jury. If the guy just bought the game from someone... there is nothing to tell, and you don't bring things without any purpose into the courtroom.

#9721 3 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

In Michigan (and I'm surmising most jurisdictions), a thief cannot pass title of something to someone.

Assuming you consider IP infringement theft... but possession of a bootleg CD would not be stolen goods - it would be counterfeit goods. The CD maker wouldn't be charged with larceny - but with copyright infringement. The game isn't stolen... it's counterfeit goods.

#9759 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

You do not get to keep them.
For example, if you buy a stereo at a pawn shop that was stolen, the police will take the stereo from you and the thief will owe you the price you paid in restitution. The pawn shop will also get in trouble because there are laws around how they treat items.

'that was stolen' -- key difference. What you outline is correct for STOLEN GOODS

Counterfeit goods are not stolen goods. Until someone says the game was taken without permission from Kevin -- it's not a discussion about STOLEN GOODS or theft.

#9762 3 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

This is not a case of counterfeit goods, this is theft of IP. The machine itself is not counterfeit. If their was an official Predator pinball, and Kevin was making and selling copies of it, that would be counterfeit goods.

This is completely false. There is no dependency on being a copy of an existing good. If you make some random handbags, put a Gucci pattern and logo on it... it's now counterfeit goods. Counterfeit's are not just 'bad copies' - they are products that imitate another good, brand, or IP without permission. Just like the random bag is 'faking' being a Gucci product.. Predator was 'faking' using other people's IP.

#9763 3 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Omg unless you have proof like a written agreement that you wanted prototype number 2 or whatever it is that pinchili owns, and it was signed off and OK"d, which I'm sure was not the case, then pinchili does NOT own YOUR Predator machine. What a moronic statement. Come on people.
Also pinchili purchased no stolen goods, so I don't get the argument there either.

Apparently some people did have special arrangements to buy some of the pre-production stuff.. but Kevin failing to deliver on that agreement does not make the game 'stolen' nor does it mean the original agreement person 'owned' the game. Until it's actually delivered, its just an agreement to purchase.

#9774 3 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

So it's considered counterfeit, not stolen... For my own education, what are the ramifications of that (and the selling of counterfeit goods) to the buyer(s) of said counterfeit goods?
I can't imagine that owning counterfeit goods is 'ok' or 'tolerable' just because they aren't considered stolen goods? Surely Fox would have some sort of legal recourse to pursue the acquisition or destruction of infringing products, which is really what we're curious about no?

At the core of the concept.. the IP holder can pursue ensuring the unauthorized copies/uses of their IP be returned or destroyed by order of the court. Basically, they have the right to ensure only their authorized versions exist. But actually enforcing that is where the difficulty comes in. Once the items are out on the open market, or in the hands of individuals, its typically too difficult or expensive to pursue.. so classically the enforcement is pursued at the source or distribution. Basically force the people to destroy their stock.. threaten people who are involved in the distribution of it and try to stop the bleeding. Most of the time, its not worth pursuing one person, one item at a time.. so they focus on the 'big fish'.

In a case like this, it may be easy to win a judgement to say the item should be destroyed or deem it as unauthorized.. but to actually get it enforced? That requires again additional action.. and follow-ups to try to get enforced. They won't call the sherriff and say 'go break down that guys door and burn that game'. The guy holding the game has legal protections too, and copyright/etc are not an area they enforce, etc. Fox could send threatening letters, etc.. but reaching into someone's home is not trivial.

It's not a crime to buy a counterfeit good or knockoff.. but it is illegal to produce or traffic them.

#9775 3 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

This carried his brand/logo, I don't believe he had a 20th Century Fox logo, he was not positioning this as someone else's product, he has not taken their brand, he has taken their IP. The term Predator is not a trademarked term, possibly the logo, but I've never seen it with the circle R or TM.
Seems to me this is IP theft, not counterfeiting, but I'm not a legal expert and the legal definition certainly may be counterfeiting, not that it really matters much as far as which term applies.

There most certainly is a distinction between trademark vs copyright here.. but for the context of the discussion I don't think it matters. In either case here, it is clear infringement on the copyright, identities, and probably a slew of material that was trademarked. Picking apart which is where doesn't really change the root topic here.. that IP infringement isn't under the same laws as larceny... even tho we often call IP infringement 'theft' - because of the loss of control and financial impact it has on the IP owner.

#9792 3 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

That's depositions, internet law guy.

Congrats... you've been promoted to Captain of the Spelling Police!

#9804 3 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Nice try, but we all know that wasn't a spelling error.

It's called blind typing... while at work and usually distracted. But keep hanging onto a typo that if it makes you feel better. Do you have something to actually counter the point... or no?

#9888 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

So the guys who bought and sold the 2 prototype machines and Kevin have committed a crime in trafficking ?

There would be a distinct possibility in that.. if authorities were interested in pursuing. More than likely they'd use that as leverage to get what they wanted from the people involved.

#9929 3 years ago

Some serious wishful thinking going on here...

Even if the hammer came down from a fib lead case... That doesn't get you a collection.

I love the stolen goods story too... Imagine if every fraud case turned into larceny because someone got an order receipt. That's funny. Now unless there is some angle that Kevin was just storing their game id love to hear their argument.

Plus, larceny would be determined by the police, not your lawyer. So where are the arrests for Kevin stealing games from his own possession?

#9934 3 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Everyone, Flynniguess is talking, calm down... He know's exactly what is going on, so just literally get on board with the wet blanket........

Truth is better than fan fiction... even if the truth hurts.

Or... you can keep dreaming up your own realities and pump each other up about how "its different this time" or how this guy is somehow guilty of new contradictions of the law. Who has reported these goods they never had possession of as 'stolen'? That's why I said, unless these guys are making some argument that the game was already theirs, had taken possession and it was just being stored at Kevin's... I'd love to hear their angle on this.

When someone cons you and you say 'they stole my money' - it's slang - not an actual instance of theft/larceny. It's fraud - not theft. A very important difference in both how something is pursued and how its resolved.

OJ Simpson was charged to pay over 33.5 million in fines and restitution. 18 years later, the families say they have recovered less than one percent of that judgement.

Who is going to keep paying the lawyers and the collection agents over the coming years it would take to actually follow through with a collection? You're going to go cash negative in the first month. A $500 retainer isn't going to pay for years of liens, follow-ups, and collections. Anyone tackle that question with Keith yet?

'Blood from a stone' really comes into play here as well. If the guy ends up living on someone's couch or back in his mom's basement... what are you going to collect??

The best hope is Kevin actually gets convicted of a felony that results in some actual jail time. Short of that, everything else is just spending money for a moral victory. Yes, this part is all opinion :p

#9936 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

you dont even have a clue of what the contract is with Keith yet you keep spouting on about things???
FTR, you are wrong on a few of your assumptions.

I asked a question. I would ensure you know the full scope of the agreement and not just assume. What happens after judgement, who will be running the collection, who pays the expenses, who gets paid first (clients or him), to what limits, etc.

When things are too good to be true.. you should ensure you know all the details to be sure it is what you think it is. $500 for years worth of lawyer time? Ok, even take in the 20+ people.. 10k for years worth of lawyering?? Call me unconvinced. How much are people willing to spend to keep it going?

That's why I said the criminal side is probably the only side with any kind of satisfactory outcome... How much time and money are you going to spend to try to recover $4500?

#9940 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

if he is representing you or you would like him to, then I suggest to get ahold of him and negotiate this all...
I can say I am very happy with the arrangement I have with him.

All I can say is... reserve this space for the discussion two years from now

I wish you all the best - but sometimes I think the eagerness leads to running in the dark.

#9949 3 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

You do know that many owners lobbied hard (and unsuccessfully) to convince law enforcement to file charges against Kevin, right? Given the lackluster response from the detectives, do you really think investing time and energy pleading for a criminal action is more likely to pan out than a civil claim?

I didn't say it was more likely to occur - only that the criminal side is the only one that would likely result in any satisfaction.

And as some would like to repeatedly state.. we don't know everything that is going on

And the criminal side is one of the few angles that keeps Kevin from walking away from everything and having it wiped out in bankruptcy court.

I don't know what winning a judgement against this kid gains anyone individually. I think it can ultimately lead into even more anger and frustration. A year from now we will have people running around going "A court says Kevin K owes me $4500 and he won't pay!". Or "Kevin still owes me $4500 and yet he's allowed to live and breathe free...". I foresee a lot of people being frustrated with the reality of winning a judgement is only like the first 1/4 of the battle when the other side has nothing to gain from paying.

We don't have 'debtors prisons' and the law offers a lot of protections for personal property and well being. Sure you can claim you ruined this guy, and maybe he continues to live with a shadow chasing him forever... but I doubt that will be enough to quell the anger most people feel. Maybe ultimately Keith the lawyer corners him and drains what he does have... but I imagine it will be a hollow victory at best.

At least if a criminal case were successfully prosecuted - the guy would be labeled a felon which actually has pretty serious consequences even if he didn't spend any time behind bars.

Just my thinking behind the comment...

#9957 3 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I hear this all the time. It is a common myth because we were designed as a country to not have a debtors prisons...but try to avoid paying your pay roll taxes...watch what happens to you.
There are plenty of instances where people lose their freedoms for a period of time because they can't pay money they owe.

A key distinction... owing taxes vs debts.

1 month later
#10077 3 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Haven't heard a thing in months. Really losing faith at this point. Not sure what I was thinking.
John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, Mi.

Civil actions... take your worst case assumption for time needed.. and multiply it by 5. The calendar works in units of months, not days or weeks. A year or so for a simple judgement.. maybe another year or so for the back and forth.. and years in the pursuit of collection on the judgement.

End to end - 'years' is the order of scale you are working with.

6 months later
#10520 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

-You're ordering from a real authorized distributor...not a meth-head in his basement or a pathological liar in his overpriced workshop.

Your faith in Stern's Distribution standards are a bit over zealous At least in the current period they're not as bad as they used to be.

You don't have an order with Stern.. you have an order with your distributor who orders inventory from Stern... that they make take delivery of or do a drop-ship directly to your location.

Let's not forget the OZ WOZ cluster-f was the failure of a retailer/distributor.. not the JJP delivery schedule or JJP itself. People still need to be diligent of who they send money to.

1 week later
#10554 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

This has only ever been a civil matter not criminal. I don't think he has ever been worried about jail.

He's had visits from the police... really he has committed wire fraud and more.. but its up to the DAs to decide to prosecute or not :/ and they didn't..

#10609 3 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

The VP Cabinets transfer of money stuff....I think it would be difficult to prove that was a fraudulent conveyance, given how long ago it occurred and also the fact that it occurred in the "normal" (well, at list Skit B 'normal') course of business. Unless the parties were in collusion long ago, it's hard to imagine that monies were paid to VP Cabinets in an attempt to hide or shield assets from other creditors.

People don't think the virtuapin move was to hide assets... its this just this idea that won't die that people think because skit-b failed to deliver, they are owed the cabinet that was 'bought' with their money. Not that they want a cabinet, but just idea that it would be 'returning' what they paid for.. its a stupid idea all around that just won't go away as it should. It's like the jpop spending... people think they can just 'reclaim' what was spent with vendors or individuals during development or sourcing. As if it could be 'un-spent'..

If all these depositions have happened... where's the transcripts ?

#10698 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

So you're now allowed to own stolen property in this country?

It's not stolen property. You can't apply reclaimation policies to creations that were created without license. They were created illegally, not created and than stolen.

It would fall under civil ip laws - not criminal theft

#10738 3 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production

I think Kevin has proven quite clearly he wasn't organized enough, funded enough, or had enough actual resources to get the game to production. From JJP, Spooky, DP, and others we've seen just how much it takes to get from prototype -> games shipping. Kevin didn't have it.. no way. I'd bank on that. Even WOOLY just barely scraped by and he's the closest to what the SKIT-B scale was.

Quoted from cfh:

It is my opinion Kevin had plans to make these games in full. Was he doing everything right? Clearly not. But when those Texas yahoos closed the net on him via Fox, that's when the whole thing went crashing down. and all his accounts/monies were frozen or refunded. It was like a tidal wave because everybody was asking for their money back. Kevin had spent a fair amount of the money In going to shows and moving his game back-and-forth between the shows. in the end there was nothing left and Kevin could not operate. He could barely buy lunch at McDonald's at that point.

The 'run on the bank' is of course real.. but there is no hope in playing the victim card here. The guy may have THOUGHT he was within his rights to do the project, but ignorance is not an excuse for incompetence when you are running a project with OTHER PEOPLE's money. This wasn't 'fund Kevin's pet project' with donations.. he took money for goods to be delivered. The fact he ran himself broke doing it.. ok.. but took people's money without due diligence or really any hope of delivering?? Criminally negligent IMO.

#10739 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

At no point did Kevin ever have a signed license agreement with Fox to do Predator. A signed license agreement is a contract, printed out, signed by Fox and signed by Kevin

What he is trying to say is.. not that Kevin 'thought he had a license' (poor wording) but that Kevin THOUGHT he was within his rights to make the game within existing constraints/agreements.

Kevin really thought he had found some path that would be legit, without actually having a licensing arrangement.

Much like you are probably using some GPL licensed software on your computer right now, that you know you are 'licensed to use' because you are using it within the existing bounds of how the product was released.. yet you yourself do not have a specific licensing agreement. That's the **mindset** he had and what clay was likely trying to convey. Kevin thought as long as he did x, y, and z... he could do it legally.

Then when the scrutiny came on, he apparently just started making stuff up to try to make it sound like he had a regular licensing agreement. Why he didn't want to let people onto his plan.. who knows.. I think it looks like he just got sucked into the moment and wanted to play like the other kids.. and made up stories about 'oh yeah, it was tough... but we did it!'

But the charade was not very convincing... and the lies started to conflict and pile up. Then when someone looked behind the curtain.. he was caught in his web of lies. At that point, it was unrecoverable and the IP holders would scrutinize anything going forward.

#10741 3 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Those would be worth a lot of money...with only ten in existence and given the history of the machine.

Meh.. rarity != desirability

Its still an incomplete game that represents the failure, deceit, and lies within the hobby. I think of it more as an albatross.. not a 'pre production' piece of pinball history.

#10743 3 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Yeah the path was the moron thought if he was a non-profit everything he did fell under fair use. There's stupid and then that. Monumental fucktard stupid, i.e. Kevin.

Yeah, the more details that came out... the worse his judgement was understood to be. That's why I throw the flag when clay thinks predator would have gotten done if Fox wasn't notified. This guy is too sketch to pull that kind of job off... no way. He'd have to rely on others, who would do their own diligence and eventually people would stay away from him.

#10747 3 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Building even just one custom game from scratch is an accomplishment in and of itself. Between that and the assurances that licensing was above-board, there was a level of comfort that the games would be produced, like Tiger said.

Sure it's an accomplishment - but having a custom game is far from having a pinball company. I feel we are hopping around a bit.. you and Tiger are referring to the sentiment at the time of the ordering... where clay's statement was made with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of all of Kevin's choices and history.

At the time, most people had not been exposed to the complexity of getting a game to production. Hopefully now with all the history people have seen through projects like TBL, JJP, JPOP, and more.... they realize having the prototype is not the final turn.. but just the opening leg of the race

Look at TBL, they basically redid the machine to make it production-ready. JJP had industry veterans and professional engineers/designers, and still struggled to get games into actual production. Spooky is the only real homegrown shop that has actually gotten to the finish line.

Gene's project was probably the closest to Skit-B's vision.. and even that had to be saved and was a financial sinkhole.

People were way to eager to get the next 'unobtainium' collectors pin.. and predator and JPOP offered ways to get there and people rushed in.

It's like with Stern's current releases... there is no such thing as 'must buy it early, or I won't get it'... yet people still flock in the hundreds to buy the game without ever playing it.

#10754 3 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Apparently he was delusional though

That sums his project up

#10839 3 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

If he doesn't get the discharge the judgement will haunt him a long time as he will have no escape. Garnished wages. Seized income tax returns. Seized insurance Receipts in some circumstances. Etc.

All which require paying lawyers along the way to pursue and people to collect...

#10900 3 years ago
Quoted from Drewscruis:

Sometimes when something gets called out on a grand scale with media coverage people in power tend to notice. The media is a verocious dog that given the scope of the swindle, would love the opportunity to run with it. If at the least it puts even more pressure on Kevin I'd do it. And usually something like this won't cost you a dime considering everything that has been spent so far. I mean what do you have to lose at this point.

Until they find out he's just some scummy klingon living under a bridge somewhere... then it becomes 'see how easily people are duped' story. You can't really run a man down that is already at the bottom..

2 weeks later
#10954 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

stopped reading after this...
You can use "apparently" I will use discovery, deopsitions, and subpoenas via the lawyer.

If those are the sources, both sides would know the details.. So sharing would not reveal anything to the defense... Yet would be ammo for your side to enlist others looking for positive outcomes. Yet... No real details are shared. When in fact more complain about no comms at all.

#10998 2 years ago
Quoted from LadySlingshot:

What's your agenda? You do realize Kevin (next to JPOP) is the most despicable human being to everyone in this hobby.

Hey... Slow down there.... Don't sell yourself short

#11140 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

The next question is, if Stern knew (and it sounds like we believe they did) did Stern inform anyone? Any of their distirbutors perhaps? Other people?
How about Rick at Planetary? Think he knew? Think Stern told him? They do work together closely according to Rick. Rick proports to be and holds himself out as a giant "moral fiber" guy, if he knew surely he would have informed us instantly right?

It would be in their best interest to just stay away as far as possible and just make sure none of that stink gets on their boots. If they know it's shady, they also know how hard it is to actually get stuff done they know it will likely just blow up on their own.

I bet at best one would do is drop hints with suppliers asking 'is that the kind of operation you want to get involved in? Are you going to get paid, etc'

Stern gains nothing from being involved and only faces potential negatives from trying to be a player.. Pro or con

#11172 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It really is amazing to me that he has been allowed to continue to post here. I guess it would be too much to ask for Robin or the mods to chime in on this issue, because it really is an embarrassment to Pinside.

The answer is that there has been some sort of plea deal obviously. They let him crawl back. But that MO was seen right from the start... Go too far and then beg for forgiveness. But kaneda was smart to never go after robin or his staff.. So they haven't given up on their willingness to try to recover things.

#11237 2 years ago

The old stuff will never be destroyed if it's not in Kevin's posession... People need to stop bearing that horse. That's another legal battle that no one will fund and pursue.

Taxes... You really think a project that was all work and no sales is going to be a net positive?? Given his other diligence it's a fair assumption he didn't file properly, but all that avenue does is introduce another collector in the discussion that would override all of you and bog the entire legal process.... Slowing the entire thing down even more. That is something you throw out there long after your own civil attempts have dried up and you just want a cloud to follow them.

#11252 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Those machines will always be a black mark for whomever owns them, and I'm not personally ever going to let up on that unless all of the people that got screwed say that it's OK for a machine to be owned by someone else.
It's a real dick move to own one of the machines... What an insult to people who lost thousands.
It's not like these machines were production machines that were built and properly sold. These machines were gotten after all the shit went down, in secret.

You are exactly right. I want a cloud to follow Kevin and these machines for the rest of their existence. We see it differently.

But what you are saying is not about pursuing those items to be destroyed under ip violations.

You may want that.... But it's never going to happen. The games and parts that are out in the wild will always be unless someone buys them up and destroys the items themselves.

They won't ever be 'seized' or rounded up by the police.

You are talking about shaming people - not legal repercussions

And even if you want a cloud following him... You need to be smart in the order of which things happen. Unless you like working against yourself

#11282 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

You are quickly becoming king of the obvious.
Yes to everything you said.

Well then not sure why you replied to my post with a straight "nope". When commenting on the dead horse after taxman again brought up 'confiscation' of the games/parts.

#11329 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Because I'm not going to stop beating the horse about the existing games or Kevin, that's why. My position really isn't this hard to understand man.

Well, it's fitting I guess... Given it's that kind of wishful thinking that started the mess.

#11337 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

. If anybody has a difference of opinion then the mob who is caring pitchforks, you guys thrown them out. Of course I'm talking about Tim. He provided some insight, which of course was different than what other people are saying, but it was very relevant and was not mean-spirited in any way.

Minus that whole lying who he was, hiding, lying about who he was and who he knew, and onward. Truly valuable and credible insight.... *smackshead*

#11413 2 years ago

There certainly is more drama in pinball in Michigan than any other place

#11430 2 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

Kevin didn't pay for anything, the buyers did. Now he sells all the items and pockets the money and you Kevin lovers are ok with that?
Flame suit on. ?

This logic assumes costs did not exceed income. Who thinks wonderboy who thinks he knows how to circumvent licensing would run in fear of a c&d letter? Why stop at that point?

I bet the money was squandered and left with no way to fund new stuff, he just goes dark. He probably made commits he couldn't deliver on to vendors and other parties too.

#11474 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Paul and I did chat and he has agreed to provide full disclosure of all information and be up front and honest through the proper legal channels. I have spoken with KeithinMI and they will be in touch with each other.
I think at this junction it is appropriate for people to not pile on Paul/Noah. Allow the legal system to take the reigns and let things come to light via those channels. Once things are all settlled then people will have all the facts and I think they will clearly see that there is a single person that pulled the wool over so many of our eyes.
Worth mention that even Vid, whom is smarter than most of Pinside combined, was duped into beleiving the things Kevin told him...
Please let the legal system work things out. It may be slow, but things continue to move forward and having people like Paul that are willing to provide many important facts will assist us all in making sure SkitB pinball finds its ultimate end in the right and legal way.

Amazing how Hilton's tune changes once he gets what he wants...

#11477 2 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

He is posting with a different tone. That is for sure..... But regardless of his motives, he is doing right by the community for this case.

I've never disagreed with the mission... just the means, statements, and way some people have behaved.

4 weeks later
#11604 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

OK so for us non legal types...what does this mean? That he can't file for bankruptcy?
EDIT: Ah I think I get it now, this means they can sell off all his assets to repay everyone?

This is a motion to have the lawyer representing the Predator buyers (Keith) be hired/employeed by the Trustee (The Court appointed people responsible for handling the bankruptcy request) to work on behalf of the Trustee to bring as much clarity as possible to the debtor's (Kevin's) actual financial situation.

Basically it lays out the case that based on the prior work Keith has been doing on behalf of the predator buyers, there is there is probably more shady stuff that Kevin has NOT disclosed to the bankruptcy court and Keith is worthy of hiring to work to ensure the creditors get as much as possible from Kevin.

This basically just gets Keith working on the team that to expose Kevin's dealings and assets... which is good for the predator lawsuit clients because of the prior work and interest in Kevin's dealings... vs having Kevin just slide through bankruptcy court easily.

#11605 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

It is certainly interesting, that during depositions, it appears, Kevin did admit to not only using predator funds to buy a house, but putting it in his wife's name specifically in hopes it would protect it if/when the shit hit the fan.

That's the claim of course. Would sure like to see those transcripts though to see how that is actually asked/answered though. What lawyer would allow their client to actually say that??

#11672 2 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Someone clear something up, I have a logic switch flipped somewhere..
Why would Keith WANT the time for Keith to be extended?

So he can spend more time proving there are assets out there that are not disclosed... to prove the wrongdoings to ensure the outstanding debts are NOT discharged (so later suits can continue against Kevin to collect)... and basically to ensure Kevin doesn't get to flush all this history through a bankruptcy petition.

It seems all those associates of Kevin that may have been helping him mask things like the operator business and other assets are going to be getting nasty grams soon enough It's gonna get juicy.

#11712 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I think the inference is the money may have been moved out of the country to make it potentially harder to trace.

I think people give Kevin WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit. The guy who simply admits to embezzling during a simple deposition is going to setup offshore accounts and shelters? That's funny

#11720 2 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Kevin would have been foolish to lie under oath in the 341 meeting, especially when being questioned by a litigator who probably already knew the facts

Did you forget the right against self-incrimination? Or the position of the defense to avoid disclosing those things? I didn't say lie... I inferred he was a amauter without any master of the simple legal stuff.. let alone working out traveling to hide money offshore.

#11727 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

From my meager legal understandings, if you are using the right against self-incrimination, usually the people litigating take that as you did something that you know was illegal and you just won't talk about it because otherwise what reason would you have to not talk about it? In that case, it can be equally damaging.

One outcome is to citable admission.. the other is only inference.

It's not to say not answering a question doesn't cause doubt... but the lawyer is there to keep that question from even happening in the first place and steer you out of that corner.

#11752 2 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

I had heard he invented the button in front that says "start" on it

But he could never figure out the 'finish' button!! yuk yuk yuk yuk

1 month later
#11850 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I'm not claiming to know which is true

Well then that pretty much leaves you open to libel and defamation claims... because you are potentially hurting this guy's business by spreading information that would materially hurt them... even tho you don't know it to be true or not.

Not a great move.

#11892 2 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

Keith, thank you for this. Since some of us haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn lately or actually practice law, would you be kind enough to explain this in layman's terms?

Not all debts are erased with a bankruptcy... there are ones can be excepted. But exception is not automatic for all, so you need to file a dispute to ensure your claim is properly excluded from being flushed in the bankruptcy (this is why Keith and others were seeking people to file claims earlier)

And on top of that, there are scenarios where when the debtor (Kevin/SkitB) acts in illegal ways.. that the debts aren't flushed either. (where you see Keith pursing and identifying these situations now in the court filings)

Basically he's making the case that if you do your homework... you can make sure your claims against Kevin won't be dismissed in any bankruptcy.. and call him to learn how

3 weeks later
#11902 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Don't be disillusioned that this will get you your money. It just means that he can't walk away from your claim due to his bankruptcy filing. I imagine you'll have to sue yet again to actually go after any money.

Yup... Certainly just the early steps in the journey... But the alternative is things get flushed and the guy gets away with it. Hopefully some will at least see it as paying for justice.

#11926 2 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Can Kevin's prosecution be used as legal precedence to build a case around JPOP? This is new territory to the courts as far as I am concerned.

they are night and day from each other... the fact they sold people on the idea of buying a pinball product is probably the only common thread.

4 weeks later
#12019 2 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelb:

If Kevin doesn't show his slimy face doesn't that put him in Contempt of Court under Point #5 "willfully and purposely ignored and refused to obey an order of the court"?
Can this lead to an arrest warrant?

Remember.. the #5 as you quote is the claim of the lawyer, not the conclusion of the court. It's up to the judge to decide that and take action if any. Should be interesting to see what the Judge does to compel Kevin. Sounds like they are looking for a court order to force him to appear for the dec date.. I thought they had that last time, but not going back to dig through the doc.

2 weeks later
#12061 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Wow that's a game changer. Either he's going to show up and face the music, or flees to Canada (so long as he has a valid passport and doesn't have warrants against him that would stop him at the border). Hope this works out for all the buyers.

well.. what will likely happen is..

His lawyer shows up with 'something' - and the cycle continues where Keith and the trustee have to say 'not good enough', and file another motion to that effect, waiting for the judge to agree.. meanwhile Kevin continues to float looking for some way out... but now faces even more fees stacking up (money that won't goto debtors btw..)

This is just more signs along the way... remember we are still in the INFO GATHERING phase. What is good here is the court is basically saying this is relevant and needs to be addressed as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.. and Kevin needs to explain it. When he doesn't, and people 'win' the bankruptcy portion of this saga.. you'll get back to where you were before.. Kevin owing money.. and people still needing to sue and win those cases to collect.

All this action right now is just to keep the debt from being wiped out...

#12093 2 years ago

Well at least Keith had the docs in the ready . Which makes me think we'll see more motions ready today too

#12113 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Wow, you're kidding? I certainly would have lost some money there, unreal.
So can you comment on what his lawyer had to say today and what is your next step Keith? Will they issue a warrant for his arrest?

well we already saw it.. he is asking the court to find Kevin in contempt of the court and issue a warrant to bring him in and detain him.

Which would mean the next question is.. when/how/why do the Marshals actually go out and try to execute a warrant like this for a non-violent criminal. Or do we have to wait until he crosses the law and someone runs his name.

#12126 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Wouldn't the US Marshals actively pursue a warrant, unlike the situation you describe with local cops?

Simply put.. there are thousands more warrants out than there are people to actually go and proactively enforce each of them. Which is why there is priorities and some logic about when/who/when to go and try to find someone.

#12128 2 years ago

Even if its only a detention cell until he can be brought before a judge... the very idea of him being in a cell, even if only briefly, is a moral victory. Plus, the idea there is actually an active warrant is also a star on top of the christmas tree. The idea alone that the guy is actively WANTED by the law and will be held in a cell is a huge step forward.

It's wacky to think that outcome finally comes from his civil disobedience instead of criminal charges... but you gotta take what you can

#12134 2 years ago
Quoted from s1500:

Did he ever get paper mails(in addition to emails) to show up for legal proceedings? I'm wondering if he just tossed them out like it was an overdue bill he ain't going to pay. Interesting to watch someone just completely ignore it all to see how far it's going to go.

Well he has a lawyer... that presumably knows how to reach him. If he refuses to listen to his own representation.. there is no excuse.

The lawyer knows what is expected of Kevin.

#12175 2 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

It says he will be detained until he fully complies with the court order. If he can't produce the paperwork does that mean he could spend life in prison?

Of course not. There is a difference between 'will not' and 'can not'. When he complies and the parties are convinced he is doing so, the lack of paperwork will simply mean he won't be able to defend against other claims of where the money really went.. and so he'll be in a worse situation to defend himself. The end game of this exercise simply is proving the liabilities are exempt from the bankruptcy flush... getting the court to excuse as little as possible and wrap up the bankruptcy so that the civil suits can continue.

Kevin went down this path to try to flush it all and wash his hands of it.. The desired outcome here is to wrap up the bankruptcy with the predator liabilities still around his neck... so then he is free again for the civil suits to continue.

In a perfect world, the information gathered from the bankruptcy proceedings would prove enough to make a case to lobby the DA or state that there was criminal conduct worthy of prosecution. But they still need to be interested.. and could simply point to the civil cases.

#12198 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Not sure if I understand what was questionable or a low blow here. Seems like a reasonable thing to do since you owned the video footage.

maybe he did more than post the video he took... like named the person and treated him as if he were guilty, etc.

1 week later
#12344 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Reality is that annonymous person (actually a few people) got their refund before taking the action to 'protect' the rest of the community

Or they kept trying to tell people softly... but people like yourselves were so dug in and defensive that you wouldn't accept the hints... and they kept escalating the release of the truth to the full on 'packaging' of the findings so people would start to wake up.

'Vindictive stunts'? Or the slap that some people clearly needed?

#12375 2 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

tl;dr - it was a scam from the get go, unfortunately it got exposed before the majority of people could get their money back in hand. Kevin is 100% to blame for all that happened.

Then why the cabinet company setup?
Then why the parts runs?
Then why spend money on title two? You think the Mythbusters just showed up for free??

I don't agree with your interpretation of things at all (nor your style of posting them as facts.. when its your own belief.. not cited facts at all).

It's my belief the dodo thought he had worked out some genius way to build these themed games without having to go through the normal licensing model. He really thought it, and convinced himself of it. Then when reality started knocking, he lied to keep up the charade... convinced that he could still do it on the down-low. But when the actual lawyers started coming... he really had to pinch his cheeks and tried to hide the project thinking it could still somehow happen... but it was too late. At that point, it was lies to protect the other lies as most liars do and everything fell apart. From there, being the completely irresponsible person he was.. he thought he could just hide from it all and it would just blow over. But now with the actual legal system cranking along... that will never happen fortunately.

#12377 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

They did this purposefully and to "teach the community a lesson". They single handedly had the ability to publish the info earlier and enable others to be within the chargeback period but waited. = annonymous are ALSO assholes.

well sometimes people reap what they sow... Maybe the way defenders went about things is what caused those in the know to be vindictive back. The history is all out there.. frankly IMO you have little ground to stand on given the behavior prior. You went out swinging.. and as Icecube put it... You got knocked the f out. Now you use everyone's loss as a way to hide from facing your own consequences in the whole lead up to that point.

I'm glad you are motivated to help fund the actions against Kevin now.. but you are not innocent in that decision to not be informed earlier.

#12383 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I will say you have some serious and deep rooted issues and insecurities which are often manifested in your personal attacks against others and inability to forgive

Stability lecture coming from whysnow? I LOL'd It's even more funny because you think this is some lack of forgiveness vs simply owning your actions. I wasn't chastising you or bringing up old blood. You did when you go and try to retell history with some convenient omissions.... and then continue on with your 'I know all the real truth.. and I'll talk about me knowing it, but I won't actually say things outright' posts.

You go on about how the anonymous group screwed you and others and how they were assholes... This isn't anything to do with forgiveness.. it's about your lack of objectivity in accepting your own part in what lead to that outcome. Forgiving your past actions doesn't rewrite history. You are pissed the group did some vindictive things... maybe they did... but it wasn't in a vacuum nor out of the blue. Apologies don't change that truth... simply how people move forward.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Never have I met (online because of course you are an enigma and never let your real name known) a person so incapable of forgiving for something they have no actual vesting in but are o so concerned...

My 'forgiving' or not has nothing to do with acknowledging what transpired. And as an 'enigma'... that is again you leaping where you want the mark to be.. vs doing any actual effort to find reality. I've used this handle for more than 25 years. I don't hide who I am and plenty of people know me in the hobby online and in person. Just because YOU can't spend 60seconds with google doesn't mean I'm some anonymous troll.

#12406 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

When the issue of the "anonymous group" is raised and people start throwing blame at them instead of (or in addition to) Kevin Kulek, you can be sure that Whysnow's name will also be raised. Why? Because *if* the "anonymous group" has any blame in this for their actions or inactions, then the same logic can certainly be used to say that Whysnow also has plenty of blame to share. How many people kept their money invested in Skit-B based on Whysnow's overbearing declarations of confidence in Skit-B, while slamming any and all posters who questioned the viability of Skit-B and whether there was a license, or whether the pin would ever be delivered?

Which is why we should just be focused on the future... plenty of behaviors contributed to the outcome.. hopefully they've learned from it.

The progress of late has been good in the bankruptcy court.... but it's really just the early laps of a long race.

#12444 2 years ago
Quoted from waldo34:

i check this post every 30 pages or so, what the latest summary with Kevin? I.E. Anyone get anything from him via the courts?

He tried to declare bankruptcy and the current activity is to fight that to ensure debts are not flushed and that he doesn't pull a fast one in the court regarding his real assets

#12445 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

I think you might be off base. I believe there are plenty of people who think the same way but are too afraid to say it because of today's sterilized society. I expressed my point of view , and there is nothing wrong with that. If someone acts upon my point of view that is their problem, not mine. If I tell someone to go do some street justice, then I have a problem.

And this has been covered by robin many times already... yet you keep testing the boundaries

#12461 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

I am not testing any boundaries. I simply said I don't understand WHY this guy hasn't met any street justice. That is completely different than me prompting for someone to go out and harm the guy.

From the Mod team... It's pretty damn clear.

Stop talking about possible physical violence against Kevin Kulek or anyone else involved in this situation.
Consider this a warning to to everyone reading this thread.
Stop bringing up the possibility of physical violence or inferring physical violence or hinting at physical violence that could befall Kevin Kulek

#12471 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Next time use a little more reading comprehension skill before you want to play tattle tales.

Next time read the fucking post.. it's not bound to suggesting it.. but whatever. Keep bringing it up and we have the last two pages about the topic now... which is why they said drop it. Which is what I'll do before I get caught up in your problem.

#12528 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

So Tim paid Kevin for the games, so shouldn't Kevin be on the hook for what was paid for them, rather than Tim?

I'm not sure I understand this either. If Virtuapin bought a CNC machine for the purposes of manufacturing the game cabinets, why would virtuapin be on the hook for this? Or is virtuapin the one trying to recover the cost of having to purchase the CNC machine for completing Kevin's cabinet order?

The cite here is the trustee (whom Keith is working on behalf of) can go back two full years and avoid a transfer of property/interest if "made such transfer or incurred such obligation with actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud any entity to which the debtor was or became, on or after the date that such transfer was made or such obligation was incurred, indebted"

Basically he's calling out Kevin as intending to defraud people.. and as such, he can go back two full years and recover any asset transferred away from Kevin. Adding fuel to the fire, if the transaction didn't result in a tangible asset of fair value back to Kevin... I'm sure they say it looks like constructive fraud (Kevin hiding money instead of just transacting normal business)

VirtuaPin or others can get screwed here even if they were acting in good faith because of 'preferential' treatment in the order of getting paid vs other debtitors. For instance, paying off a loan before the bankruptcy could mean one debtor getting 'preferential treatment' vs others.. and the court may want to rebalance that. I guess at that point, they too become debitors to Kevin? I'm not sure how that works.

But its interesting overall now.. that Keith is entering the 'intent to defraud' people angle. I'm sure that gets a lot hairy to argue.

#12529 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Those who "retained" him are paying quite a bit for these prayers for Judgments. There can be no assurance that they will be entered (I know, in cases like these they usually are) and, if entered, no assurance of payback to those seeking recourse.

This work should be paid by the trustee... from the assets that will be recovered in the bankruptcy. Keith isn't working for the individual creditors here, he's working on behalf of the trustee to shake the tree and find all the assets that the filer actually has.

In some ways you can say this is 'burning up the money that could be recovered' - but what it really means more of is... Kevin won't get away from the obligations nor will people benefit from his actions. Maybe people have less left at the end.. but Kevin certainly will have LESS. And that is probably the best outcome people can hope for.

#12535 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

But that's equally the point, right? The money recovered here IS all of these folk's money. I would think some of these items have significant more chance of being recovered than others. But it's all gravy for Keith because even defending the unlikely recoveries means more hours and more dollars in his pocket.

The whole point here is to ensure Kevin doesn't get away with it... not 'get your money back'. So if the trustee consumes more of Kevin's assets is no real loss to any one... they never wouldn't have really gotten much anyway. This is about punishing and ensuring Kevin has a burden to bear... not about ROI.

#12539 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

How is getting money back from VirtuaPin going to ensure "Kevin doesn't get away with it"?? Especially considering Keith is going to get fully paid before everyone else. Just saying.

Because it ensures Kevin has liabilities that WON'T be flushed with the bankruptcy. I means Kevin will have a monkey on his back for ages.

Quoted from Brickshot:

If you want to focus on hurting Kevin then focus on his blatant disregard for the court's orders and for possibly the lies he told (perjuring himself) while under oath

Well you can't have 'disregard for court orders' if you don't have actual court actions... and that's where we are at.. and that's why this is good news.

Quoted from Brickshot:

Jail time for Kevin is the closest thing folk's will get in terms of justice

Actually for most people having Kevin not being able to live a free and stress free life is worth it. Criminal Action has already been looked at, with no traction. So don't point there. We can only hope with all the information flushed out in the bankruptcy that the criminal side will be looked at differently in the future.

Quoted from Brickshot:

The new document is a bit odd in my mind because you can't argue he paid some 100K+ to a given supplier and that he intended to defraud folks in the same breath. It seems like evidence to me that Kevin paid out the money to suppliers and intended to build games. I see zero evidence of Keith building a case for fraud here and in fact, just the opposite. Keith is just clawing for every cent he can get and will then pay himself first, and pennies on the dollar to the victims. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer.

1) Defrauding people isn't just about 'game or no game'
2) Paying a supplier in itself is not enough to satisfy good faith - What did Kevin pay for? What assets did he get in return? Was it in done in a manner that proper and not moving money away from other creditors?

I'm sure Keith could be pursuing cases with guaranteed payouts and chasing people with far more on the line. I highly doubt this is a 'get myself rich' scheme by Keith. And even if it was... as long as Kevin is burdened by it at the end... people will still thank Keith.

#12554 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

I'm not suggesting this is a get rich scheme. I'm suggesting this is exactly how he makes a living and this is his bread and butter. He is a debt collecting lawyer. This pays for his Beamer or Jag, guaranteed. He isn't doing this out of the kindness of his heart.

He took on civil cases against a character for what amounts to trivial amounts of money for members of our community against a guy he knows there isn't a huge payout waiting. Find us another lawyer in MI willing to do the same... and you can champion your own lawyer with his own reasons.

I have no idea what you are going on about. He's a debt lawyer? Well I hope that's why people hired him! This is his living? Sure, but he wasn't going to buy a jag on the approx $400/head he charged people to start up the civil lawsuit. (memory is foggy, pretty sure that's about what was at stake).

Having Keith as special council to the trustee is exactly what predator owners want... because he is focused on the predator topic and well versed in it.. vs a normal unfocused guy looking at everything and could have wrote all this off as not worth their time. So Keith gets paid to do the work? WIN FUCKING WIN! He gets paid to do what we all need him to do.. and he's getting paid to continue the fight he volunteered for.

No one is painting Keith as Mother Teresa... but he is certainly doing way more for the owners (and the community) at his own expense than any other lawyer in the fray. So... what's your point caller??

#12565 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Who could I possibly be that would make what I just posted any less true? It's like Groundhog's Day around here. Can't attack the argument, let's attack the person.

Well said person insists on dodging the question.... and using the simple user verification system the site has... that looks like someone it's something to hide

#12568 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Excuse me, and where do I go to see YOUR full legal name and preferably address? It must be on here somewhere, right?


#12586 2 years ago
Quoted from desertT1:

For as many awesome features as this site has, it really sucks at preventing dup/spam accounts. I'm on other forums (who mostly use vBulletin) and for whatever reason they are a lot better at preventing or sniffing out (the software/mods, not the torch toting rank and file) those types of accounts

It's only something humans can do or require actual membership/cc/etc and not just an email. The software things can't stop a persistent person. The way to solve it is to be aggressive and cut them at the knees.. because the passive 'oh we don't want to hurt a snowflake' just gives them space and opportunity. The more power is done by committee, the less agile it is. Empowering, well equipped staff, is how sites combat trolls. Usually starving them of their attention is the best way. Robin has some great ideas in the current implementation, they just need to be put into play... and they need to be more aggressive with validating suspicious accounts.

This isn't 4chan and doesn't need to be.

#12597 2 years ago
Quoted from desertT1:

Agreed. There are some non-mods who seem to get off on beating up new people. Would be nice if the overall tone was a little more pleasant around here. Not in this thread specifically, but all of Pinside.

Sometimes people jump early.. no doubt. But there are also a ton that don't pass the sniff test. I've been moderating online communities for almost 30 years.. you can with pretty good reliability sniff out the dupes/shills/zombie accounts.. The human psyche is pretty predictable and the more active the users are, the easier it is to ID them as not unique users. Frankly there are two moderately active accounts on the popular threads that are dead easy to identify as not 'new' users... the interesting thing is they've not even bothered to try to circumvent Robin's verification system yet. I suppose its because the limits aren't in place yet.

#12602 2 years ago

It's hindsight... but reading the filings it really highlights why businesses are supposed to operate a certain way.. even when selling stuff. All these protections in place to avoid 'clawback' claims where basically the seller will get left exposed.

The handling of these transactions between Kevin and these other guys are like textbook 'what not to do'. This is why having Keith active as the SC is so great... he's punishing these idiots for their mistakes and playing so loose and shady.

All those things about the validity of your buyers... contracts, credit checks, etc.. seems like such a PITA until you realize you are helping protecting yourself by ensuring you avoid clients that could go bankrupt.

#12646 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

The machines will never make it to auction. They're unlicensed, remember? State (court) can't sell 'em. Fox *could* grant a license for just the two machines, making them legit and pretty valuable at auction (would help recoup money for preorder folks), but they have no reason to do so other than goodwill. Most likely the games will be surrendered to Fox and either be destroyed, or will wind up in some higher-ups' offices as curiosities.

I was thinking of that as well.. but I would assume Keith would disagree since he assigned a tangible value to them. He didn't try to reclaim them as IP violations, but as assets to be redistributed to creditors. And since they are one-offs and prototypes being liquidated instead of sold... I'm not sure if that changes things?

#12730 2 years ago

I love how accounts go from "why do you all claim dupe accounts", you all are attacking me..."no really in a new user". to being lured into admitting who they are... then they act like they never lied at all about it.

Complete and utter liars who have no credibility ever

#12809 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Im inclined to let him stay for the time being. I don't speak for the whole mod team obviously (and Robin may feel different when he wakes up), but as far as I'm (personally) concerned Tim can keep posting if he wants to.
I'd like to hear more details about any conversations he's ever had with Kevin or anything else he would like to tell us.

So pinside rules are more like... suggestions? If you entertain the staff you are given a pass on repeated duplicate accounts, deception, and straight up ignoring staff actions by doing end arounds?

Boo to that

#12811 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I'm lucky to remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday....I couldn't tell you when or how I bought any machines person to person. All cash deals...I usually keep a slush fund of cash on person that's increased through sales and decreased through purchases. So hopefully I'll never have to testify when I bought something or prove I did. Might give me pause on documenting that in the future.

Yes...avoid people that are bankruptcy risks protect yourself with documentation

#12812 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

No. And I don't have to. It's up to you to prove I did something wrong. I don't have to prove what I did was right.
Just because your crops shriveled and died doesn't mean I'm a witch.

Actually no... not in this case. You as the buyer can get screwed by the seller alone. The court has the right to protect all creditors... even at the expense of one. You need to protect yourself

#12818 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

If you wish to discuss the rules or the way in which they are enforced, I'd invite you to open a moderator feedback thread rather than drag this thread off topic.
This also applies to anyone else who has questions/concerns.

I was responding to a user posting as themselves... not a mod's response

I already reported the post as done initially verse commenting on the mods in the thread. So I did my part.

It was tiggerlaw who brought the topic into this thread... not I.

So let's make sure we are pointing the finger correctly Forceflow

#12932 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

When I was chasing Kulek's accounts I consulted with PayPal. Kulek said that they were acting as an escrow agent and holding the funds. He even told the magistrate in my small claims suit this. Well, when I consulted with PayPal Legal they said oh hell no. They NEVER act as an escrow agent. Other third parties can do that, but they are simply a transaction processor.

Yes, they aren't an escrow. They will hold funds... but to protect themselves.. not because they are acting as an escrow.

The whole bit from Kevin about Paypal and having some 'special arrangement' stunk from 100yrds away. Just more ammo in a criminal case IMO.

#12948 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

PayPal behaves like it does because of the credit card rules that are out there. As I'm sure you know, if someone fraudulently transacts something with a credit card and buys an item from you, when the card is charged back, you lose the money. If you already shipped, you also lose the item. There is basically no recourse as a business.

As a merchant tho you have an agreement with terms with the cc that give you protections if you follow the rules. With paypal you are at their whim when it comes to freezing funds and when they will release them. You also have paypal doing claw backs for THEIR buyer protection schemes (that benefit PayPal... not you).

In short... the relationship is all out of balance and it doesn't look so bad until you get fisted by them and learn how bad it can be.

1 week later
#13199 2 years ago

6425B6A2-4432-4F43-900B-EBE2DC9A895E-1573-000002638723017A_tmp (resized).png

Can't wait to listen to the audio...

#13231 2 years ago

I think Kevin really thought this would be file for bankruptcy.. and just keep hiding under a rock and it would all blow over and he could hide from the civil suits.

It seems he thought Keith's demands were just like some collection agency he could just keep ignoring.. verse actual COURT ORDERED APPEARANCES. The one I can't understand at all is.. once the warrant was issued... how he could justify to himself or anyone that 'ignoring' would work. The idiot is taking simple procedural stuff and turning it into warrants and potential jail time.

On the lawyer front.. they clearly treated Kevin as if he still had representation when discussing how to meet again.. why by bring him before the judge w/o the lawyer at this hearing? Clearly they should have allowed Kevin to try to get his lawyer present for this meeting with the judge, right? But that's not discussed.. Maybe Kevin didn't even challenge that?

The funny thing is Kevin acts like Keith is on a witchhunt and is in the wrong somehow for seeking out all these details outside of what Kevin disclosed.. and trying to use that as some kind of defense about making false claims, etc.. dude.. that's what he's supposed to be doing... ensuring the trustee has a full picture... not simply agreeing with whatever BS you put on your schedule.

Kevin keeps talking like 'he just wants this to be over'... buhahaha.. wake up dude.. this is just the info gathering phase!! Keith said the trustee is going to file an adversary proceeding next week. Presumably claiming Kevin lied and is concealing assets... and that's where the good stuff starts. With Kevin's path.. he's going to get liquidated AND STILL owe the debts.. and if hes LUCKY.. not face criminal charges for his perjury and bankruptcy crimes.

The idiot has taken his civil lawsuits.. and is turning them into criminal charges on his own.

It's like Christmas has come just a little late this year.. instead of just facing civil collection claims forever.. the moron is making his case into a criminal one all on his own.

#13243 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I would bet my left testicle Kevin never created an actual company. He likely has no records beyond 1) list of customers 2) Paypal info 3) Bank statements. If the judge is expecting more he's going to be disappointed.

I don't think Keith expects anything more than that... this is all the 'setup' to ensure Kevin can't claim the money was used up legitimately. They will prove the money went in... then show where Kevin was associated with shady transactions and funding things.. and Kevin's lack of legit paper trail will cause all those transactions to be tainted and pulled into the assets to be liquidated.

The lack of accounting and disclosure will be compared with the data collected externally from Kevin.. use to prove he is lying in his bankruptcy filings.. which will be used to avoid having the debts excused... will bring those assets BACK to the trustee... and will be even more of a rap sheet for the trustee to handover to procecutors to pursue criminal charges with.

Lack of detail will favor the trustee and creditors as Kevin will not be able to properly separate his lifestyle from his credit obligations.

#13246 2 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

I have seen judges much harder on 80year old women for speeding in court. With large fines handed out. This judge seemed way to easy on Kevin. The judge never asked do you have a lawyer? Do you need a lawyer?
Never asked what the court issue in Ohio was about?

Remember.. this hearing was only about getting Kevin to appear... so the trustee can continue on what they need... so the case can continue to proceed. The judge was clearly keeping a focus on that.. and as others have said, probably being very reserved in terms of passing judgements beyond the 'have you complied with sharing these items'.

Remember.. this activity right now is the bankruptcy case.. not the civil suit. Keith is representing the trustee right now (the arbitrator who is tasked to best recover what the creditors are owed).

This is bankruptcy court... not criminal court. No court appointed public defenders, etc. As the judge reminded Kevin.. he filed this claim voluntarily... the court is supposed to be there for him... yet he's not participating and complying.

#13251 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Just one point of clarification. There was no possible 'legitimate' use. Kevin never had the license and people were paying for a product that was never delivered. Dont lose sight that he lied to everybody about having the license.

I know you are hung up on my choice of wording.. but I was referring to the accounting of the funds in terms of tracing it all out.

The proving of fraud in both the civil suit, and separately in the bankruptcy case is a lot more convoluted than simply having a license or not. But if Kevin wants to hang himself with simply his behavior in bankruptcy court... I think we all are in a much better place than the simple civil cases

#13257 2 years ago
Quoted from KingDaddy:

Wait, is Kulek potentially headed to the Big House?

Right now.. only if he doesn't show up for the meeting next week and comply. Judge put him on warning regarding holding him in contempt of court.

#13262 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Great audio btw.
If Kevin produces a few personal tax returns, the judge will not allow him to claim he can't find the missing years. If Kevin produces one corporate tax return, the judge will not allow Kevin to claim he can't find the rest. He better have all requested bank statements on personal and joint accounts and business paypal accounts, or he will be called out. His business better be registered with the state. Anything short of all this will result in Kevin be held in contempt being sent to The Clink

There is no 'corporate tax return' - there was no corporation.
There is no business registered with the state (AFIK)
This is a PERSONAL bankruptcy case

#13312 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

The value is what was paid to have them made. I don't believe Matt created them for free.

The value in this context is a street value as an asset.. not what he paid. He is supposed to be disclosing assets he has, the point of contention there was not about accounting for the balance of predator money. That's for later.. Later, Keith will challenge the accounting for the monies received to challenge Kevin to account for assets he *should* have..

The point here is the debtor has to disclose to the trustee all their assets.. the 'pinball parts inventory' is stuff Keith knows Kevin should have.. yet Kevin failed to disclose it. Kevin's claim is he didn't know to document things he thought had no value.

The trustee (which Keith is working on behalf of) is working to ensure they know all the assets Kevin has. Kevin documented he only had about 3700 worth of stuff. Keith, knows there should be much much more... which is why he is pressing Kevin to provide documentation to support the accounting for the predator money and explain information gathered from other sources (the operator gear, the RV, the laptops, etc).

#13347 2 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

If Kevin shows up with nothing, no new documents or information, will he actually spend any time in jail? And if so, how long would that realistically be? And let's say he does spend time in jail, what happens next?

At this point... what he is facing is being held in contempt of court... basically being punished for disobeying the judge. The judge can hold him until he complies..l or just hold him for a period to punish, etc. But that is about Kevin not complying... he could still show up with nothing new.... saying that is all there is... and then it's up to the judge to decide if he is complying or not with the order. The judge won't throw him in jail for not having something... but he will if Kevin does or could get... and isn't cooperating.

This recent turn is only about Kevin not cooperating... not his actual bankruptcy, criminal, or lawsuit outcome, etc. that's the beauty of it.... staring down jailtime for the simple stuff.

#13357 2 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

That's just pillow talk.

Not a chance. The trustee would turn the facts over to the federal prosecutor and it's on them to decide if charges will be filed or not... but since you are already pissing in their cherrios... they may be more inclined to press on. Especially in a case like this where things look like they will be very willful and egregious... and a significant amount of money is involved.

#13387 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

I know this has been asked a couple of times and I can't seem to find an answer... Is Friday going to be recorded?

and posted like the last? unlikely.. since none of the other meetings/sessions have been. The last one only was recorded because Keith wasn't there in person. Presumably because the Marshals didn't check his calendar before deciding to pickup Kevin that day

#13392 2 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

Court proceedings are always recorded. Most of the time in bankruptcy matters, they are made part of the docket in the manner this one was.
2004(b) exams are typically done with a court reporter and while recorded to be transcribed, unless the transcript is ordered, it would not typically become public record like the recording of the court proceeding.
Any Court proceeding that may occur on Friday will be recorded and I would surmise, be available on PACER.

I was lazy in what I wrote.. when I said 'recorded' I really meant 'audio file published'. The question is if the audio file is to be made available...

The rest was correct, no?

#13527 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Doesn't this make it easier for Kevin to just disappear?

I think we are simply off the detour of the bankruptcy attempt..

I guess Kevin realized he wasn't going to get away with just looking to bankruptcy to flush this all away and pulled the eject handled vs face the Trustee investigating him further and flushing out new criminal liabilities. Ashame really... I figured the hole he was digging was fantastic.

But Keith.. who pays all the costs the trustee racked up during this time? The court didn't pursue the penalties he accrued either? I didn't see any reference to that in the settlement to request the dismissal.

Why did the trustee let him 'go'? Was it because it was a voluntary petition? There was no arrangement for settling up his debts, so why not continue with forcing the liquidation? (and forcing his hand on the disclosures..)

#13540 2 years ago

The comments from the trustee lawyer are pretty threatening on the fraud angles.

I take from Keith's comments that Kevin is possibly still culpable for his behavior in the filings up to this point. (?)

Kevin's lawyer sounds like a drunken pass-through... and seems to take no ownership of actually being his representation.. as if he was just caught in public driveby..

And Kevin is printing out 'attacks' from the internet.. too funny.

#13543 2 years ago

anyone else listening to this and screaming that transaction histories are exported as cvs/xls files?? (and of course, a transaction history is not the same as a copy of a statement)

#13545 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Easily manipulated though. Keith said he could validate it but would have to go line by line to do so.

Oh I know.. but the whole 'what is this?' thread is kind of killer to listen to.

I loved when he said he had to pay for it.. and the Judge asked how much.. and kevin was like.. uhhhhhhh

#13548 2 years ago


Kevin testifying... its pure gold!

I actually got goosebumps when he made his oath!!

OMG this is awesome.. right about 55 mins or so

#13550 2 years ago

how did you get here..

My mother...

buahahahaa OMG this is making my week.

#13551 2 years ago

"I don't really have any expenses" "I don't really drive"

"there are no records"

Keith: "I'll give you some names if that will help your recollection..."

buahaha haha.. I'm rolling!

Judge: "Sir, what kind of employable skills do you have?"
Kevin: "umph.. not really sure.."

THIS IS MUST TV!!! (listen..)

#13554 2 years ago

Judge (referring to Kevin): "it sounds like he has the time to do that..."


For someone who can't keep records... this '1600 page' spreadsheet can't possibly be 1600 pages of data. Anyone else screaming 'shrink to fit', 'set print area', and change page orientation.. ? hehehe

#13559 2 years ago

I guess this is why people like the Court TV channel... hahaha

I wonder if Kevin needed new underwear after he got off the stand.

Please please please procecutor.. please go after this guy. The laundry list of charges must go on for pages he could get written up on.

And I love how the guy conveniently owns nothing, has no job, etc. He really thought he could just thin himself down and skate away

I wish Keith would have pressed him on how if he hadn't sold parts/games.. how such and such a person could be in possession of them?

Man... just hearing kevin under examination has put a smile on my face I just can't get rid of!

But now I must go fix my washing machine.. bleh

#13593 2 years ago

something tells me Keith has been waiting for this moment for so long. He was primed and ready!!!

Kevin's lawyer really didn't want to be there. I don't think he ever used the word 'we' once.. it was all "i just did what I could.."

#13594 2 years ago