You might want to learn to follow the house rules when playing in someone else's sandbox.

The rules on personal attacks and decorum apply to all threads on the site. You don't get to be an ass and just tell people to 'just get a thicker skin'

So pinside can listen to backseat cheerleaders like Whysnow... who has zero experience building pinball machines, but may have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express in the last month... or we can listen to Ben Heck, who has actually built games, done a boutique game and got it to market, is involved with a company ACTUALLY MAKING GAMES, done custom games, and countless other REAL PROJECTS.

Who do you think we should believe? Oh, and Ben doesn't agree with you. But maybe if you keep saying it 50 more times you might really convince... someone.

and now we watch one of the biggest threads go freaking nuclear... people who weren't on since last week will have no hope in catching up

I've not understood why anyone gave him this new found credibility... where is his history and proven track record of success and solid practice? He sure seems to be doing alot of 'advising' recently... funny coming from the guy still trying to get his first pin product out.

Before Rick at PPS named him in Rick's new scheme in how they plan on usurping the hardware already on the market.. who had heard of Aaron or his Fast Pinball? For someone still trying to get their own product out and established in the product he sure has been running around playing 'business and industry adviser' quite publicly... well now his eagerness has gotten him quite a black eye.

Once the scam is pretty public, PP is not that bad. They have their image as well and their relations with the CC companies. Maybe they have insurance for this kind of stuff if the account can't be drained to fund the requests.

I've seen it with ebay scammers... once they take down the profile, refunds flow freely

Doubtful... Its probably just his head in sand approach. The guy has proven time and time again he puts emotions and his perceived reality above any actual facts. He'll go down shooting all the way to crashing into the ground. Name your topic.. MMR, JPOP, Skit-B, DP, IPFA, Stern games, etc.

The only thing left that might be surprising is if he ever does change.

only those planning for financial raids.. like bankruptcy

You gotta call for the special cases...

Except you are glossing over the whole LYING part.

It's one thing to say 'yeah, these parts aren't licensed... you still want them right?' - vs this guy
07-minister.jpg
Lying about what is actually happening.. what they have.. etc

Oh look.. the King of Pin-values has moved into real estate appraising now too.

Except companies put together a prospectus to outline their plan and business. That knowledge is given to potential investors. People make the decision based on their info provided and their own research.

Starting to sound familiar?

But while a company may fail to achieve their goals and go down with all their investor's money... that's normal life. If they LIE about what they have in the prospectus - then its FRAUD. Kind of like, Kevin LYING about his project - repeatedly.

You can't get it through your noggin... the idea of failing is not what matters here or draws any parallels... it's about the business LYING and misrepresenting themselves - which leads to the failure. Every time you skip over that part in your stories... you make yourself look like a bigger idiot.

Companies failing because they failed to execute (was your example) - that is not the same thing.

Then you come back and say 'execs fudge the numbers.. and then fail' - that is fraud and similar to skit-b.. and those people get sued and often go to jail.

That does not mean this is the same as investing in companies that fail - because Scenario A and Scenario B are very different. One is failure, one is fraud. Learn the #$^ difference.

Failure != fraud
Underestimating things with the correct intentions != fraud
Companies failing to execute != fraud

FUDGING the numbers intentional to deceive = FRAUD
LYING to your investors to deceive = FRAUD

I can't believe people don't know the #@$^ difference between criminal activity and companies failing.

Usually frozen.

One thing Paypal is good at is.. is ensuring THEY get their money. You can't just close your paypal account and think you are home free. By linking to your bank account, they have a lot more hooks in you than you might think.

But was that simply a broken clock is right twice a day?

We should be sure to differentiate between something someone KNEW vs what they were SPECULATING and happened to be right.

People had all kinds of theories and concerns... and no matter how right they might have been, if they started without references or research.. then they are still simply speculating.

Obviously some people were trying to do their dilligence before spewing half information or onesided stories. Kudos to that. The amount of people that are advocating you should be sharing unvetted information 'to save the buyers' is insane.

Floods of inaccurate information is even more damaging than the alternative.

I need to learn to read? Maybe you need to learn to communicate? Once again.. here is your post

Where in there does it talk about FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY causing them to fail? 'finding out costs are higher than expected' is not fraud. Stupidity is not fraud (tho one could argue negligence and the liability that came come with that depending on your role). 'higher than expected' is not the same thing as DECEPTION and LYING.

Point the finger.. when you should be looking for a mirror. Saying investing in stocks or startups is the same thing as backing a fraud is right up there with your past Top 10 Dumbest things Neo rants about.

Because the follow-on posts were not the same thing. You are taking a subset of a situation and applying it to the broader definition. It's so damn flawed I can't believe after what must be a dozen people pointing it out you still plod on. I'll stop because obviously there is no helping you and the rest of the world obviously gets it.

I'm going to anonymous send the mod team a list of pinside handles that I believe are convicted conmen. Do you expect the mods to repost that unsubstantiated claim with a 'neutral statement' saying "it has been brought to our attention, through a source we can not identify that these people are unworthy of dealing with on pinside - but we can't confirm or deny who these people are"

You can't take your position of authority and spread unsubstantiated rumors... even if you say they are unconfirmed... because simply you saying them carries authority.

There is no way any grown adult in this industry who has been around for more than 6 months and is interested in making things does not have any awareness of the idea of 'intellectual property'. FFS.. we deal in a market where 'licensed' vs 'unlicensed' titles is a weekly topic.

There is absolutely zero chance a person like Kevin goes 'wow, I want to make a game based on a movie..' and doesn't have any notion that licensing is needed. The guy repeatedly (even from the start) argued they had the legal standing to do the game - so he was aware of the topic. There isn't any chance at all this dawned on him later.

Now do people all the time misunderstand licensing and what is needed... certainly.

I think you are trying to defend some position that you think people are saying Kevin was out to steal everyone's money from the start - that's not what people are saying. What they are saying is he was lying about his project all along, and hence misleading people and getting them to buy into something that sold on false pretenses. Hence.. 'scam'.

If I setup shop and try to sell you all translites that I claim are NOS... and later people find out they are in fact reproductions.. it's a scam, regardless of any fact over me shipping the product out or not. It was sold under false pretenses... just like Predator

IMHO... I think they are seeking vindication more than anything. They got ripped over and over here about not falling in line and drinking the koolaid. Now they want this moment...

say-my-name-l9j6oo.jpg

"TRY" being the key word. If there was a run on the bank (like there is now) - who is to say he would have had the means to issue refunds in December? People need to realize the only real difference between NOW and maybe December would have been any cash burn. Do you really think they've been busy building stuff over the last 4months?

The constraints on issuing refunds isn't tied to the timing of the news breaking now. The same problems would have been happening in December too.

And the team did not make this discovery.. get their funds out.. and then sit on it. The story as they told it was the two with refunds got out PRIOR to license-gate, and one of them was still stuck in limbo waiting for a refund.

Instead of pointing the finger at the whistleblowers... one can easily say, why didn't Kevin pull the ripcord and issue refunds on his own at that point in the fall of 2014 when he clearly knew people were onto the lies?

Ask yourself... what would have changed if the PBN story ran in Dec instead of March?

That is a legitimate concern and point.

You can also live in an outhouse... but we aren't going to change the expectation that most people here have running water. Seriously.. unless due to some former life choice you can't have credit - stop using debit cards and use someone else's money.

You don't pay interest on a credit card unless you don't pay your balance.
You don't worry about being late if you live within your means. You shouldn't need a hard limit like 'card declined' to know how to do that.
By using the credit card you can manage your cash flow in and out much better.. AND get paid to do it (1-2% right off the top).

Using credit cards does not mean 'spend more' - it means manage your cash flow better. There is no reason to pay cash for everything as a consumer when they are willing to take credit at their expense.

Debit cards are getting better with CC-like 'fraud protection' but you still have to deal with your actual cash being out or locked up... when you don't with Credit Cards.

If you really are at that kind of risk.. is buy $5-$8k toys really that smart of an idea?

If you can't control yourself.. then face the problem and put reasonable limits on your cards to force yourself to stay within them.

Debt Visa cards were great for people not old enough to get credit cards, or those who need a secured version due to past credit (or no credit) issues. Anyone using them long term really need to face the music and start their own financial coaching/practice.

I can't help myself with spending.. and "i'm buying predator" from the same people... is damn scary.

Guess you've never been on the receiving end of Paypal's 'suck' ability...

Because it was never sbout protecting fox mr new account... But that was the way to expose the lies

What? Now that it's in the past he can't tell us how he really felt? Maybe he has been professional all along by not slamming it while it was viable.. but now that it's dead and in the past he can actually open up.

I find this 'insult' almost comical given the amount of crap throwing that happens constantly about games being good or not... and now you want to say Ben shouldn't give his opinion because... he's actually got practical experience DOING IT? Unlike 99.999% of the posters here? Can you step back and look at that again???

I'm sorry, your post comes across as the polar opposite to me. Its a 'don't harm the snowflake' and a reader taking offense because they have to face something - not that someone is rubbing it in your face.

Would you stop buying Stern games if SteveR came in and said "yeah, that predator game wasn't very good"?

I appreciate Ben's comments because they come from someone who actually has walked in their shoes and knows the process... and didn't just stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Would you like a cookie as a consolidation gift? Maybe a group vigil planned?

The butthurt is strong in this thread today...

So you instead prefer a world where everyone just blows smoke up your rear to make sure they don't offend anyone.. and aren't allowed to speak their mind.

Cheeky...

People dont care about others... Only their situation. Logic doesnt apply...

The napster situation is entirely different. The downloaders effectively were 'kevin' in this situation as they were the ones making unauthorized copies. Here you have people buying an unauthorized game- not 250 people each violating the copyrights.

Worst case is fox would win a ruling that ordered all the games destroyed... But they wouldn't come knocking on doors to enforce it. It's not worth anyone's time. And police would not go running around trying to enforce that order. Fox would never bother spending money running everyone down. They'd send nasty letters making demands and that would be the end of it unless you started trying to make a big splash with them.

No one goes door to door collecting all the fake Louis v. Handbags when cbp busts yet another counterfiter

No - that would only be if there was a settlement... damages awarded do not legitimize what was done. They would be typically be ordered to stop all production and destroy any offending product. But again, no one goes after the product that is already distributed.. it's impractical.

That PBN article killed any notion this guy was innocently making mistakes and puts him fully in the corner of someone with issues... psychological issues.

The trail of flat out lies and misleading is undeniable.. yet he plods on trying to make people think 'if you just give me an inch...' everything will be cheeky. No one in their right mind can continue that trail of lies... and yet here he is again with no specifics, just give me some more time.

If the situation to date hasn't lowered the boom and made him wake the F up... obviously nothing will.

Complete lost cause - I can only hope for some criminal charges and a conviction to give people some satisfaction.

Most likely... he used the LABEL non-profit... but didn't actually do any legal entity setup at all, or even try.

If the guy couldn't get basics setup to protect his personal liability... do we really think he worked through the filing and legal requirements to be a registered non-profit?

I'd chock this up to yet another one of his lies intended to obfuscate what really was happening.

They go after the merchant.. in this case Paypal. This is the liability that someone who takes Credit Cards for purchases has to face.

This is why once we started having middle-men for handling credit card purchases (like square, paypal, etc) - things have gotten more complex. Your CC deals with paypal... paypal has its OWN policies for dealing with it's account holders. Paypal is trying to protect IT'S relationship with the credit card companies.. not the relationship with its account holders.. they have millions of them. So Paypal is usually cutthroat with its account holders.. even if you aren't in the wrong.

Hence, why sellers hate paypal.

While that would be the most 'pain' you can induce.. it won't actually help you get your money sooner, or more of it. You're just throwing more noise into the legal system, more lawyer costs, and more reasons for a judge to push your need further down the list.

You're losing sight of what is most people's top objective... getting their money back. Punishing Kevin is secondary to most.

.

had clicked on wrong tab when posting

The credit card companies have no relationship with Kevin - they would have to go after paypal. That's the burden paypal has, and why they are so cut-throat with their users.

The ability of a card company funding a chargeback has zero to do with what is in SkitB's paypal account. The Card company has no relationship with SkitB, nor that specific 'bucket' within Paypal. The Card company deals with Paypal as the merchant, and how they exchange money at their merchant banking level. The 'what money is in the account' discussion has relevancy only within the paypal world and it's customers.

Paypal gets dinged for chargebacks REGARDLESS of what is in someone's account.. hence why they are so aggressive in 'taking money back' even after it leaves paypal.

The success of a charge back is going to be dependent on your card company, their policies, and your timing.

First thanks for sharing your experience.
It's disappointing to hear like the stall tactics are working to defuse any criminal or civil forcing of the issue. Investigation stalling production?? Shouldn't something be moving to be stalled? 60-90 days to process refunds for money he's supposed to already have? Did the judge challenge the claim the money existed? Do you know if the detective did any validation of that?

I'm sure his general defense is 'things aren't done yet!' so they back off giving him more time. Yet, the whole misleading and non-action from before, and missed promises all seem to go unaddressed.

It doesn't take 60-90 days to go through a spreadsheet of <250 people.. even if you were cutting manual checks. Instead he's probably locked up to all the real business of paypal locking him down.

Imagine how much less anger and inflammatory stuff there would be on the forum without just two or so ppl

Attacking vendors for doing work = deplorable

Demanding businesses disclose specific business details? Wth...you guys make up unrealistic stuff knowing it wont happen

Does that mean you are adding DETECTIVE to your list on your website now too?

Thank god you are hear to offer up your services yet again

Why aren't people going after the show promoters who allow skitB to come and solicit sales for an unlicensed product the same? Are they culpable as well for failing to further scrutinize skitB's assertions of legitimacy?

Or pinside for that matter?

Funny how people can be so opinionated about virtuapin but not others. I know they have the extra bit about trying to say they were legit... But so did everyone through their actions.

How many were called to the carpet on pinside like Noah and forced to say one way or another? Their is an expectation of legitimacy and legal for vendors who have paid to be at the show. One could say loosely the same for pinside. Do you think a standing for sale ad for bootleg parts would last long on the site?

Everyone wanted to believe these guys... they lied for their convenience over and over and over to convince people. They leaned on other people's credibility to advance their own. The guys weaved stories to be convincing.. and duped many.

People are going over the top when they look at those who were duped -- and leap into making them conspirators solely because they failed to expose the lies.

Surprised? This is where people create new accounts to say things they won't say themselves... where people create multiple accounts because they've been banned multiple times... where people try to do things in PMs to hide their real mission... where people create anonymous webpages to post stuff they are too chicken @$% to post under their own name...

Trying to sneak into the clubhouse just seems par for the course.

They have no claim to the machine at all. Just claims to the IP to argue the machine is unauthorized should be destroyed.

The only thing preventing Kevin from selling any of his stuff is the argument over where the proceeds are going. There is no bankruptcy proceeding going on... there are no liens (that we know of) going on... the guy is free to liquidate any of his assets as needed to pay the bills. The only issue with selling the prototype is that it is still, unlicensed, copyrighted stuff...

pre-order people have no claim to any of the games and never will. They'll be able to make claims over money owed.. and ultimately file liens/etc to try to recover it.. but even then the guy will be free to liquidate stuff to pay bills. The change will be once those kinds of claims are in place.. there will be scrutiny over attempts to hide or move assets. But since it seems this guy didn't have any kind of business entity setup... it stands to get real messy.

Selling personal assets isn't illegal. If you give your neighbor $20 for beer... and he sells his car... you don't get to claim his car if he failed to give you any beer. Kevin's assets aren't under seizure or been frozen. He can buy/sell/travel as he wants. The most he has against him right now are small claims judgements. Which he can obviously claim he needs to raise capital for. Until there are actions to force collection or force liquidation... kevin just owes money.

Worst case is someone will interview pinchilli where he got the game, from who, and what he paid. Court and dispositions only come into play when someone wants to get the dirt in front of the jury. If the guy just bought the game from someone... there is nothing to tell, and you don't bring things without any purpose into the courtroom.

Assuming you consider IP infringement theft... but possession of a bootleg CD would not be stolen goods - it would be counterfeit goods. The CD maker wouldn't be charged with larceny - but with copyright infringement. The game isn't stolen... it's counterfeit goods.

'that was stolen' -- key difference. What you outline is correct for STOLEN GOODS

Counterfeit goods are not stolen goods. Until someone says the game was taken without permission from Kevin -- it's not a discussion about STOLEN GOODS or theft.

This is completely false. There is no dependency on being a copy of an existing good. If you make some random handbags, put a Gucci pattern and logo on it... it's now counterfeit goods. Counterfeit's are not just 'bad copies' - they are products that imitate another good, brand, or IP without permission. Just like the random bag is 'faking' being a Gucci product.. Predator was 'faking' using other people's IP.

Apparently some people did have special arrangements to buy some of the pre-production stuff.. but Kevin failing to deliver on that agreement does not make the game 'stolen' nor does it mean the original agreement person 'owned' the game. Until it's actually delivered, its just an agreement to purchase.

At the core of the concept.. the IP holder can pursue ensuring the unauthorized copies/uses of their IP be returned or destroyed by order of the court. Basically, they have the right to ensure only their authorized versions exist. But actually enforcing that is where the difficulty comes in. Once the items are out on the open market, or in the hands of individuals, its typically too difficult or expensive to pursue.. so classically the enforcement is pursued at the source or distribution. Basically force the people to destroy their stock.. threaten people who are involved in the distribution of it and try to stop the bleeding. Most of the time, its not worth pursuing one person, one item at a time.. so they focus on the 'big fish'.

In a case like this, it may be easy to win a judgement to say the item should be destroyed or deem it as unauthorized.. but to actually get it enforced? That requires again additional action.. and follow-ups to try to get enforced. They won't call the sherriff and say 'go break down that guys door and burn that game'. The guy holding the game has legal protections too, and copyright/etc are not an area they enforce, etc. Fox could send threatening letters, etc.. but reaching into someone's home is not trivial.

It's not a crime to buy a counterfeit good or knockoff.. but it is illegal to produce or traffic them.

There most certainly is a distinction between trademark vs copyright here.. but for the context of the discussion I don't think it matters. In either case here, it is clear infringement on the copyright, identities, and probably a slew of material that was trademarked. Picking apart which is where doesn't really change the root topic here.. that IP infringement isn't under the same laws as larceny... even tho we often call IP infringement 'theft' - because of the loss of control and financial impact it has on the IP owner.

Congrats... you've been promoted to Captain of the Spelling Police!

It's called blind typing... while at work and usually distracted. But keep hanging onto a typo that if it makes you feel better. Do you have something to actually counter the point... or no?

There would be a distinct possibility in that.. if authorities were interested in pursuing. More than likely they'd use that as leverage to get what they wanted from the people involved.

Some serious wishful thinking going on here...

Even if the hammer came down from a fib lead case... That doesn't get you a collection.

I love the stolen goods story too... Imagine if every fraud case turned into larceny because someone got an order receipt. That's funny. Now unless there is some angle that Kevin was just storing their game id love to hear their argument.

Plus, larceny would be determined by the police, not your lawyer. So where are the arrests for Kevin stealing games from his own possession?

Truth is better than fan fiction... even if the truth hurts.

Or... you can keep dreaming up your own realities and pump each other up about how "its different this time" or how this guy is somehow guilty of new contradictions of the law. Who has reported these goods they never had possession of as 'stolen'? That's why I said, unless these guys are making some argument that the game was already theirs, had taken possession and it was just being stored at Kevin's... I'd love to hear their angle on this.

When someone cons you and you say 'they stole my money' - it's slang - not an actual instance of theft/larceny. It's fraud - not theft. A very important difference in both how something is pursued and how its resolved.

OJ Simpson was charged to pay over 33.5 million in fines and restitution. 18 years later, the families say they have recovered less than one percent of that judgement.

Who is going to keep paying the lawyers and the collection agents over the coming years it would take to actually follow through with a collection? You're going to go cash negative in the first month. A $500 retainer isn't going to pay for years of liens, follow-ups, and collections. Anyone tackle that question with Keith yet?

'Blood from a stone' really comes into play here as well. If the guy ends up living on someone's couch or back in his mom's basement... what are you going to collect??

The best hope is Kevin actually gets convicted of a felony that results in some actual jail time. Short of that, everything else is just spending money for a moral victory. Yes, this part is all opinion :p

I asked a question. I would ensure you know the full scope of the agreement and not just assume. What happens after judgement, who will be running the collection, who pays the expenses, who gets paid first (clients or him), to what limits, etc.

When things are too good to be true.. you should ensure you know all the details to be sure it is what you think it is. $500 for years worth of lawyer time? Ok, even take in the 20+ people.. 10k for years worth of lawyering?? Call me unconvinced. How much are people willing to spend to keep it going?

That's why I said the criminal side is probably the only side with any kind of satisfactory outcome... How much time and money are you going to spend to try to recover $4500?

All I can say is... reserve this space for the discussion two years from now

I wish you all the best - but sometimes I think the eagerness leads to running in the dark.

I didn't say it was more likely to occur - only that the criminal side is the only one that would likely result in any satisfaction.

And as some would like to repeatedly state.. we don't know everything that is going on

And the criminal side is one of the few angles that keeps Kevin from walking away from everything and having it wiped out in bankruptcy court.

I don't know what winning a judgement against this kid gains anyone individually. I think it can ultimately lead into even more anger and frustration. A year from now we will have people running around going "A court says Kevin K owes me $4500 and he won't pay!". Or "Kevin still owes me $4500 and yet he's allowed to live and breathe free...". I foresee a lot of people being frustrated with the reality of winning a judgement is only like the first 1/4 of the battle when the other side has nothing to gain from paying.

We don't have 'debtors prisons' and the law offers a lot of protections for personal property and well being. Sure you can claim you ruined this guy, and maybe he continues to live with a shadow chasing him forever... but I doubt that will be enough to quell the anger most people feel. Maybe ultimately Keith the lawyer corners him and drains what he does have... but I imagine it will be a hollow victory at best.

At least if a criminal case were successfully prosecuted - the guy would be labeled a felon which actually has pretty serious consequences even if he didn't spend any time behind bars.

Just my thinking behind the comment...

A key distinction... owing taxes vs debts.

Civil actions... take your worst case assumption for time needed.. and multiply it by 5. The calendar works in units of months, not days or weeks. A year or so for a simple judgement.. maybe another year or so for the back and forth.. and years in the pursuit of collection on the judgement.

End to end - 'years' is the order of scale you are working with.

Your faith in Stern's Distribution standards are a bit over zealous At least in the current period they're not as bad as they used to be.

You don't have an order with Stern.. you have an order with your distributor who orders inventory from Stern... that they make take delivery of or do a drop-ship directly to your location.

Let's not forget the OZ WOZ cluster-f was the failure of a retailer/distributor.. not the JJP delivery schedule or JJP itself. People still need to be diligent of who they send money to.

He's had visits from the police... really he has committed wire fraud and more.. but its up to the DAs to decide to prosecute or not :/ and they didn't..

People don't think the virtuapin move was to hide assets... its this just this idea that won't die that people think because skit-b failed to deliver, they are owed the cabinet that was 'bought' with their money. Not that they want a cabinet, but just idea that it would be 'returning' what they paid for.. its a stupid idea all around that just won't go away as it should. It's like the jpop spending... people think they can just 'reclaim' what was spent with vendors or individuals during development or sourcing. As if it could be 'un-spent'..

If all these depositions have happened... where's the transcripts ?

It's not stolen property. You can't apply reclaimation policies to creations that were created without license. They were created illegally, not created and than stolen.

It would fall under civil ip laws - not criminal theft

I think Kevin has proven quite clearly he wasn't organized enough, funded enough, or had enough actual resources to get the game to production. From JJP, Spooky, DP, and others we've seen just how much it takes to get from prototype -> games shipping. Kevin didn't have it.. no way. I'd bank on that. Even WOOLY just barely scraped by and he's the closest to what the SKIT-B scale was.

The 'run on the bank' is of course real.. but there is no hope in playing the victim card here. The guy may have THOUGHT he was within his rights to do the project, but ignorance is not an excuse for incompetence when you are running a project with OTHER PEOPLE's money. This wasn't 'fund Kevin's pet project' with donations.. he took money for goods to be delivered. The fact he ran himself broke doing it.. ok.. but took people's money without due diligence or really any hope of delivering?? Criminally negligent IMO.

What he is trying to say is.. not that Kevin 'thought he had a license' (poor wording) but that Kevin THOUGHT he was within his rights to make the game within existing constraints/agreements.

Kevin really thought he had found some path that would be legit, without actually having a licensing arrangement.

Much like you are probably using some GPL licensed software on your computer right now, that you know you are 'licensed to use' because you are using it within the existing bounds of how the product was released.. yet you yourself do not have a specific licensing agreement. That's the **mindset** he had and what clay was likely trying to convey. Kevin thought as long as he did x, y, and z... he could do it legally.

Then when the scrutiny came on, he apparently just started making stuff up to try to make it sound like he had a regular licensing agreement. Why he didn't want to let people onto his plan.. who knows.. I think it looks like he just got sucked into the moment and wanted to play like the other kids.. and made up stories about 'oh yeah, it was tough... but we did it!'

But the charade was not very convincing... and the lies started to conflict and pile up. Then when someone looked behind the curtain.. he was caught in his web of lies. At that point, it was unrecoverable and the IP holders would scrutinize anything going forward.

Meh.. rarity != desirability

Its still an incomplete game that represents the failure, deceit, and lies within the hobby. I think of it more as an albatross.. not a 'pre production' piece of pinball history.

Yeah, the more details that came out... the worse his judgement was understood to be. That's why I throw the flag when clay thinks predator would have gotten done if Fox wasn't notified. This guy is too sketch to pull that kind of job off... no way. He'd have to rely on others, who would do their own diligence and eventually people would stay away from him.

Sure it's an accomplishment - but having a custom game is far from having a pinball company. I feel we are hopping around a bit.. you and Tiger are referring to the sentiment at the time of the ordering... where clay's statement was made with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of all of Kevin's choices and history.

At the time, most people had not been exposed to the complexity of getting a game to production. Hopefully now with all the history people have seen through projects like TBL, JJP, JPOP, and more.... they realize having the prototype is not the final turn.. but just the opening leg of the race

Look at TBL, they basically redid the machine to make it production-ready. JJP had industry veterans and professional engineers/designers, and still struggled to get games into actual production. Spooky is the only real homegrown shop that has actually gotten to the finish line.

Gene's project was probably the closest to Skit-B's vision.. and even that had to be saved and was a financial sinkhole.

People were way to eager to get the next 'unobtainium' collectors pin.. and predator and JPOP offered ways to get there and people rushed in.

It's like with Stern's current releases... there is no such thing as 'must buy it early, or I won't get it'... yet people still flock in the hundreds to buy the game without ever playing it.

That sums his project up

All which require paying lawyers along the way to pursue and people to collect...

Until they find out he's just some scummy klingon living under a bridge somewhere... then it becomes 'see how easily people are duped' story. You can't really run a man down that is already at the bottom..

If those are the sources, both sides would know the details.. So sharing would not reveal anything to the defense... Yet would be ammo for your side to enlist others looking for positive outcomes. Yet... No real details are shared. When in fact more complain about no comms at all.

Hey... Slow down there.... Don't sell yourself short

It would be in their best interest to just stay away as far as possible and just make sure none of that stink gets on their boots. If they know it's shady, they also know how hard it is to actually get stuff done they know it will likely just blow up on their own.

I bet at best one would do is drop hints with suppliers asking 'is that the kind of operation you want to get involved in? Are you going to get paid, etc'

Stern gains nothing from being involved and only faces potential negatives from trying to be a player.. Pro or con

The answer is that there has been some sort of plea deal obviously. They let him crawl back. But that MO was seen right from the start... Go too far and then beg for forgiveness. But kaneda was smart to never go after robin or his staff.. So they haven't given up on their willingness to try to recover things.

The old stuff will never be destroyed if it's not in Kevin's posession... People need to stop bearing that horse. That's another legal battle that no one will fund and pursue.

Taxes... You really think a project that was all work and no sales is going to be a net positive?? Given his other diligence it's a fair assumption he didn't file properly, but all that avenue does is introduce another collector in the discussion that would override all of you and bog the entire legal process.... Slowing the entire thing down even more. That is something you throw out there long after your own civil attempts have dried up and you just want a cloud to follow them.

But what you are saying is not about pursuing those items to be destroyed under ip violations.

You may want that.... But it's never going to happen. The games and parts that are out in the wild will always be unless someone buys them up and destroys the items themselves.

They won't ever be 'seized' or rounded up by the police.

You are talking about shaming people - not legal repercussions

And even if you want a cloud following him... You need to be smart in the order of which things happen. Unless you like working against yourself

Well then not sure why you replied to my post with a straight "nope". When commenting on the dead horse after taxman again brought up 'confiscation' of the games/parts.

Well, it's fitting I guess... Given it's that kind of wishful thinking that started the mess.

Minus that whole lying who he was, hiding, lying about who he was and who he knew, and onward. Truly valuable and credible insight.... *smackshead*

There certainly is more drama in pinball in Michigan than any other place

This logic assumes costs did not exceed income. Who thinks wonderboy who thinks he knows how to circumvent licensing would run in fear of a c&d letter? Why stop at that point?

I bet the money was squandered and left with no way to fund new stuff, he just goes dark. He probably made commits he couldn't deliver on to vendors and other parties too.

Amazing how Hilton's tune changes once he gets what he wants...

I've never disagreed with the mission... just the means, statements, and way some people have behaved.

This is a motion to have the lawyer representing the Predator buyers (Keith) be hired/employeed by the Trustee (The Court appointed people responsible for handling the bankruptcy request) to work on behalf of the Trustee to bring as much clarity as possible to the debtor's (Kevin's) actual financial situation.

Basically it lays out the case that based on the prior work Keith has been doing on behalf of the predator buyers, there is there is probably more shady stuff that Kevin has NOT disclosed to the bankruptcy court and Keith is worthy of hiring to work to ensure the creditors get as much as possible from Kevin.

This basically just gets Keith working on the team that to expose Kevin's dealings and assets... which is good for the predator lawsuit clients because of the prior work and interest in Kevin's dealings... vs having Kevin just slide through bankruptcy court easily.

That's the claim of course. Would sure like to see those transcripts though to see how that is actually asked/answered though. What lawyer would allow their client to actually say that??

So he can spend more time proving there are assets out there that are not disclosed... to prove the wrongdoings to ensure the outstanding debts are NOT discharged (so later suits can continue against Kevin to collect)... and basically to ensure Kevin doesn't get to flush all this history through a bankruptcy petition.

It seems all those associates of Kevin that may have been helping him mask things like the operator business and other assets are going to be getting nasty grams soon enough It's gonna get juicy.

I think people give Kevin WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit. The guy who simply admits to embezzling during a simple deposition is going to setup offshore accounts and shelters? That's funny

Did you forget the right against self-incrimination? Or the position of the defense to avoid disclosing those things? I didn't say lie... I inferred he was a amauter without any master of the simple legal stuff.. let alone working out traveling to hide money offshore.

One outcome is to citable admission.. the other is only inference.

It's not to say not answering a question doesn't cause doubt... but the lawyer is there to keep that question from even happening in the first place and steer you out of that corner.