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Quoted from Fulltilt:Ice Castles (Midway/WMS), Popadiuk, 1989.... 25, soon to be 26 years just there. I don't think he just dropped out of pinball. Not with Williams the entire time but has had hands in pinball.
I told John I would love to work with him to release the unreleased Ice Castle!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:Hehe, I'm pretty sure vendors don't have an NDA with John.
John has NDAs with everyone. I think that is what makes reading this thread difficult. There are many people who would love to weigh in constructively one way or another, but cannot.
I am sure in a couple years when everyone's NDAs have expired there will be a great sharing. But until then there really isn't anything that can be shared that divulges anything that is not already publicly known.
FWIW, I have a lot of respect for John as a designer. I have regular communication with him and have enjoyed his input and advice. John has gone dark on me from time to time when he, I assume, was focused on his work. I have been to his workshop. I have seen a lot of exciting pinball in the works.
The best advice we have received from veteran pinball folks like John is that "to build great pinball you need a great team." This is advice that we at FAST have taken very seriously.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Post edited by fastpinball: typo
Quoted from rai:Aaron what does Fastpinball do?
» YouTube video
Pree-sent! I love that skit!
FAST Pinball is developing a new pinball hardware platform for developing new games, as well as enhancing existing games. We are also working with pinball designers to provide design, build and engineering support to get games to market. Let designers be designers.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from wcbrandes:look I'm pretty sure when someone has your money, and they have past the point of delivering product in a "reasonable" time frame, all NDA's go out the window! NDA's cant possibly hold up in a court of law in this situation. This is Canada anyway but the US must have to adhere to reason as well.
NDAs between parties have no bearing on the NDAs between other parties. Topics covered by the NDA are essentially information not broadly known which you are only privy to because it was shared between the parties in the agreement.
While they may not be bulletproof in a courtroom in certain circumstances, it is considered poor business practice to disregard such agreements between companies who willinging entered into them.
In a courtroom setting the intent of the agreement is what is tested. In most cases between companies the intent is to allow the parties to speak more freely about their business and potential opportunities that may exist between them. All while protecting the parties from having one party use this information to gain advantage over the other party and use the information in ways not outlined in the agreement.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:I think there's a lot of "professional courtesy" extended to jpop in this situation. The NDAs, Patents, etc... all don't mean shit without him lawyering up and going after people in court, not likely to happen.
The same is true in reverse, you have customers with contracts with Q4 2013 delivery stated for RAZA, you have apparent vendors owed money, but unless they lawyer up and take it to court, not much happens.
Basically all of us are just holding on by the nails and hoping for a positive outcome.
I think you are mashing together a few different things here. If you had a contact for delivery of a game and the contract was to be considered null and void if any or all of the terms of the agreement were violated, then you can choose the act as you feel you are entitled to. But because one contract was broken doesn't mean they are all null and void.
Personally, my NDAs are still intact for a period of time. If I decide that they are no longer enforceable then I will act accordingly. But just wagering that the other party "ain't gonna do nuthin' 'bout it" is not a responsible move for any business to make unless they are prepared to be challenged on it.
If I find that the NDAs I have with entered into with another party are restricting opportunities for my business then I would seek resolution with them. Otherwise, I would respect the terms of the agreement I willingly entered into.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from slapshot:Aaron, what exactly do you have to do with Jpop's games and when did you enter into some kind of contract/NDA with him?
John and I have gotten to know each other over the years and we have an NDA in place to allow us to speak more freely about our respective endeavors.
That is all that is appropriate to share in a public forum.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from RobT:Crock.
??? I gather we approach business and relationships differently.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
PS: if it puts you at ease, I would have no problem sharing with all of you what I saw at John's workspace if I found him stuffing cash into trunks preparing to make a run to the border. But I assure you (and feel it is all right for me to say) that this was not what I saw. 
I haven't meant to imply that I am aware of any big secrets or anything. Rereading some of my posts could imply that I do.
I like John and think he is a great designer. My NDA is there only so we could discuss ways we may work together someday. That's all.
I am going to bow out of this thread so it can stay on topic.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Rarehero:If John ever licenses a theme for a game, it should be "The Neverending Story".
LOL. You made me spit soup on my desk!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from SadSack:BTW, if you want to see a guy who CAN do it all, check this out:
http://www.junkyardcats.net/
Why can't a boutique just grab this completed design and produce it?
» YouTube video
Brendan is awesome! He actually made our FAST Pinball logo for us. I think it would be a lot of fun to bring this game to life.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from rosh:I don't think you understand what drives someone to be crazy enough to do a boutique pin. A huge part of it is around the overall creation of something, bringing your vision to life, not just 'building' a machine. Maybe there is someone who would want to do, but most of the folk I have talked to who are building machines I don't think would have interest in taking someones creation and building it. It is certainly possible he might want to try to turn his machine into physical machine, as we have seen with WOOLY.
I would be totally into producing someone else's design. If it was a great design, there was demand for it and the designer could hand off completed designs to be produced, we would be all over it.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Chambahz:Could you take on a project like WOOLY without requiring massive up front payments?
This is one project that I think would sell big numbers if we could literally call in an order, charge the credit card, and watch the tracking number vs the current: send in the cash and hope to God that this pin doesn't follow the same fate that many of the other boutique companies are putting people through.
The model we are pursuing is similar to indie record labels. When the band and the label are releasing a record almost like a joint venture. Some games will be more expensive to produce than other. Some games will be more in demand than others. Some games will require more label involvement to be developed, while others come in ready to be mass produced and distributed.
At a point the "machine" takes over and much of the process can be systematized and hopefully certain advantages of economies of scale can be taken across multiple titles. Platforms for documentation, code update distribution, even pooled customer support are a part of a professional release. These are all critical to a successful game launch.
I feel that pinball needs a model that lets designers be designers and not suddenly also have to be engineers, marketing, biz dev, production line manager, logistics, support, etc.
Please PM if you want to I discuss any of this. I did say I would stay off this thread.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Post edited by fastpinball: speling erors
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Since JPOP announced AIW December last year, I'm hoping Tesla pin (game 4 ) will be announced by the end of the year so I can send in my down payment and enjoy this roller coaster ride.
I have now heard 4 different parties considering a Tesla based pinball title. Saying you are doing one just to "secure" the theme is garbage.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Bonnevil69:how hard is it really to get a working prototype done and playable
If the art, game rules, playfield layout, display animations and sound are complete, not hard.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Bonnevil69:that would be a production ready game i said prototype lol
LOL. True, true. If we are talking a fun whitewood. Come out to the shop. We can get one up in a few days.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:Aaron how did you manage that ramp? It's in sections I presume?
Yep. That is a ramp from Predator. My buddy Kevin was kind enough to let me use a file to test the process. I have since hacked it up to use on Minecraft.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Cheeks:The problem is that when he said that, it had the air that he didn't really understand what it meant. It was apparent he didn't know the rug had to do with the movie, and I think he felt people thought it was cool just because it was on some snazzy rug. He seemed to understand that the game being shown in full was an aspect, but commented too literally about a rug reveal.
I'm fearful Jpop has actually spent time looking for what rug he'll have under his game. I think the metaphor of "rug reveal" meaning make a public splash with a full game went over his head and he's instead focusing on literally showing his game in private sitting on some rug. I hope I'm wrong (or he's been since clued in). If not, how sad.
Oh man. There is no way he would do a literal rug reveal. That would be most poorly timed joke on customers ever!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from rosh:My understanding is Jpop pays his developers (and vendors) upfront.
Oh, wait, maybe it is he never pays them, I get those things confused.
Its definitely one of those!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:I know almost as little about BHZA as you all do. We hashed out some ideas that I won't discuss as I too signed his NDA.
I didn't feel I was very closely involved, so that's why I didn't give a whoop when he changed it.
RE: Tesla, anyone who walked into my office and saw my Tesla backglass hanging on the wall is/was free to "borrow" the idea from me since I did nothing to protect it. I no longer feel it's a strong title for pinball anyway (no license, no sales) increasing my level of not-giving-a-shit.
There's nothing more I can tell you from my end.
As much as everyone is engaged in this discussion, Ben is right to not share anything he feels is covered by his NDA. Maybe down the road when MG finally ships we can have a "Remember those crazy days waiting for MG to ship?! Share your experience!" thread. I'll enjoy as a reader until 2016.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:Anyone ever read the business book E-Myth Revisited, by Michael Gerber?
Jpop could be a story straight out of there about how just because you like doing something doesn't mean you should own a business doing it.
The example in the book was a lady who loves making apple pies. So she opens up a bakery, and now it is the worst job in the world. Working from the crack of dawn till late in the night, everything from mopping floors to book keeping.
Basically the point was, if you love making apple pies, get a JOB in a bakery, make the pies, collect your pay check, there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone should be an entrepreneur, and the role of entrepreneur is different than that as "technician" (making the pies/designing pinball). If you want to be a technician, maybe you shouldn't be an entrepreneur.
But I digress, since that horse has left the barn.
Great post! I use the pie baking story all the time. Very applicable here.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:He's going to open up the commentary part as well as soon as he can figure it out so people can post away
Gotta give him credit for starting to open up. Big step for him! And a really good one.
I walked him through that and made test comments for him.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ulmpharmd:anyone know how to fix the "no plugin available to display this content" message when trying to view the animations? tried java and shockwave no luck....
Its using Quicktime. That's why the iPhone/Safari stuff works. Apple bundles that stuff still.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from taylor34:I don't know why FAST or Mission would want to do this though, people who get things done working with people who don't is a recipe for disaster...it just doesn't work out. This is one project I'd pass on, plus you know vendors aren't getting paid, why would you sign up to be another person not getting paid?
We see a potential win/win. We are eager to dig into projects that are pushing pinball. We feel like our hardware/software combo is a great fit for John. He needs to design the hell out of games and then have a crew available to help realize those designs. An advantage for John also will be that independent of his projects we have a roadmap for new parts/technologies he can enjoy. I used the analogy "Q to James Bond" in describing the relationship yesterday. When John starts to design another game we can show him a bunch of new tools! And he can find fun ways to use them.
We want to let designers be designers and not have to deal with things they shouldn't.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:"By the way, my name is Pop. Jay Pop."
Lol I spit coffee when I read this! John in a James Bond tuxedo! That would rule!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:To be honest, I am confused why Mission & FAST haven't been working on this the past 5 months. There was a blog announcement on Oct 21, 2014.
Now there are "discussions" happening? Like, WTF?
I really don't know anything about Mission and FAST, but John apparently made a decision about it 5 months ago, great. Obviously even if these discussions are successful, we're 5 months later along than we could have been, and more accurately SHOULD have been.
Now that the blog is public, that post was made after our visit to John's shop when at Expo. While we have not been in the trenches with John specifically, we have been advancing the hardware and software as would be needed for John. So I wouldn't say time has been lost, rather the ability to meet the requirements for John's games were prioritized and are being fulfilled whether John were using our solution or not.
I talk to John often. This is a very exciting time in his project development. I would love nothing more to enable John to design his heart out and help him to deliver games for years to come.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from taylor34:I don't know, 'get stuff done' guys just don't mesh well with people who don't, it ends up leaving you frustrated at the lack of progress on their end. I don't know how many times I've gotten burned by that (I guess enough now to know not to do it). Look at how many other accomplished guys have bailed from this project, that should tell you something. A job at a company isn't paying vendors, has high turnover, and hasn't produced anything seems like an opportunity to pass on.
If you go into a situation expecting to change someone like John or hope he changes, you are doomed. If you can approach it and someone like John knowing their strengths and setting up an arrangement that allows for success, you can achieve something great.
You can have a band with excellent musicians playing their parts perfect, and the music can be dull and lifeless. You need an x-factor to push it to be amazing. Challenging ideas and concepts that push talented people to do their best work is kind of environment I love work in.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:Works for me! Well you have to include Charlie too. Aaron can submit his membership and get his card after he backs it up.
For sure. We are new on the block. Have a ton to prove. Collectively we have achieved plenty in other spaces and are eager to do the same in pinball.
This doesn't need to turn into yet another FAST vs. PROC debate either. Gerry sold a few boards to John. John tried them and and decided they were not for him. This was before we were even on the scene. That's all there is to know with regards to JPOP and proc.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from retro_p:In that case I can't help but think what Aaron is saying is kind of patronizing; if you've got the track record to back it up, you can speak as an authority on "getting shit done", but if you haven't done anything... really?
We are entrepreneurs and makers. Running businesses (15 years personally) and what not. We got into pinball for a new challenge.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from epthegeek:I wouldn't say that's all there is to know.
My point was that John has looked at all options and is continuing to do so. If he wanted to use proc he could have years ago.
But you seem to have insight on this decision and can probably speak to it better than I.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I want to say that the reason we are making a renewed effort to help provide John with the support he needs to make his games is because of the owners who reached out. In the end, if we don't end up being the right solution for John, it will be because he decided there was a better solution for him to deliver on his vision.
Our intention was to develop our platform for the next generation of games designers may be dreaming up and not try to convince existing projects to change up their platform. So our possible involvement in John's games already in progress was because we were sought out as an option to consider. When our hardware is publicly released we can truly have our hat in the ring with other solutions.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:I started programming AMH September 2012. We had a prototype PF by MGC 2013, the one we demoed in the Zombies cabinet. That wasn't a production PF (by a long shot) but everything was there shots / gameplay-wise.
By MGC 2014 Chuck had made the game ready for manufacture and I had completed the code. By this I mean all intended modes were present and the game could be won.
So that's 17 months of programming just to get to that point.
Did bug tweaks after MGC 2014, games started shipping. Did another big code update just before Expo last year, and just released one yesterday as well.
20 months of programming (in my spare time) to date is a good estimate, and that was for a DMD game.
One difference on the programming front has been the development of the Mission Pinball Framework along side out hardware development. A lot of game generic development (all the stuff all games need) has been completed and just needs to be applied to the specific game. This is why the solution we intend to present is what we see as the faster way to bring these games to life. But I can't say I know how long or that there won't be unforeseen problems. Check out missionpinball.com/framework
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:One possibility would be to have an MG play field sent to Seattle to have those guys populate it and get it flipping on their platform in a very short amount of time and then ready for production over a set timeline of say MG by June, correct me if I'm wrong Aaron.
June is coming up quick. I am sure we could have significant amount of progress by then, if the playfield showed up soon. I threw out the June timeframe because it is when we have our NW Pinball Show and it would be fun to have a meet-up to show off the progress to owners who may be in town. Based on the state of the progress John could even offer a public preview. I think that would be a fantastic challenge!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:Honestly, if Aaron and FAST get ahold of it, they'll be a million times faster taking over by putting in the hardware they know and designed. So replacing the hardware isn't really as bad as it sounds, it's really part of the stumbling block right now.
Tell you what, be a hell of a test of the Mission framework to see how fast they can get basic rules functioning on a flipable game. People might be surprised at the speed of that. Still plenty of work to program the rest, but that's the kind of thing where a programmer can sit with a functioning prototype and just work independently of anything else.
That's why getting hardware up and running fast (no pun intended) would be advantageous, it would parallelize the work.
It would be an awesome challenge. With John's permission we could live blog the progress or something. Have some fun with it. But we seriously do love a challenge. Plus John has done the hard part: designing the game. For us it would just be following through on bringing his vision to life.
But we will see what shapes up. If John goes a different direction then we will focus on another playfield to show off the hardware/software in action for June.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I should say that without knowing all the details of the state of the game development and whether or not all the toys have been fully conceived, we cannot specifically say just how far we could get on the game by when. So the idea of a challenge, like mentioned above, would need to be based on exactly what needs to be done. I dont want to make too many assumptions.
So if John chose to go with us, we would work with him to make some aggressive goals and share progress as he sees appropriate.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from taylor34:I have no doubts that they can get it up flipping fast, probably in a day (I think that you can get a p-roc to that state in a day). Flipping though is a lot different than ruleset + dmd animations + additional hardware feature support, etc. There's just a lot of work to be done. I guess I don't know if this is their full time job or not, I assume not due to the lack of money available...as a good experienced programmer is 100k + benefits. If it's their full time job they'll get it done much faster.
I dont understand your comment about lack of money available. For what? Do you mean John not having money available?
Or are you talking about us? The guys who are writing the Mission Pinball Framework are clearly programming it. There isn't a person in our inner circle who doesn't write code. We have the time to put in.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from retro_p:And how much are you charging for your hardware? Let's hear numbers. You certainly wouldn't be doing this out of the goodness of your heart, "challenge" or not -- this is to make a profit. Would John have to dumb down his designs to accommodate the added cost? Are you going to raise prices once MG ships, and leave the RAZA owners high and dry? You wield a shit-ton of power when you own the platform that others depend on. Unless you were licensing the actual board design, this sounds scary.
Man, you really dont like us do ya?
We have shared numbers on pinside before: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fast-pinball/page/2#post-2027270
For John, I would bid a volume price combining MG and RAZA, as MG numbers alone are too low to benefit from volume.
Have you ever run a business before? Why on earth would we make hardware and then come up with a horrible pricing scheme that screws customers? You are certainly painting a perverse picture of how you imagine we would attempt to abuse customers. What is your intention with your scare tactic comments? Trolling?
Aaron
FAST Pinball
You don't get to run your own business for 15 years by doing shady business. You don't know me and I don't know you, so I am over it.
There has got to be "that guy" keeping pinside threads negative, right?
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from TigerLaw:I don't think they are writing any letters, they are trying to come together as a group and get the project completed. Is it what they had in mind on the onset? Nope, but it sure is better than hiring lawyers to solve their problems (and get no game and maybe no money).
Also, now many will really ha e the chance to participate in the process of making these games.
For sure. The passion and heart of the owners is what lit a fire under us to want to be a part of the solution. Not everyone is portrayed best in an online forum, but all of the owners I have spoke to are really great people. Gives the effort a whole new meaning.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:MPF has full DMD and display support since the end of last year. I was at a talk in January where Brian broke it down.
The MPF LCD support is pretty damn cool too. Priorities have been steered a bit by opportunity.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:If that's not in place then Aaron and Brian should walk. Nothing but headaches down that road. And they can't make that happen without the owner pressure. That's why I'm suggesting that you just rally around people who are willing to walk into the lion's den, and say "this is how things can get done, you owe us that, make it happen".
Brian and I (and the rest of the crew) are very eager to show off what it is we are all working. We also know that time and energy is not infinite.
I do know the JPOP beast. I call him a friend. We message, talk on the phone. Have shared crazy ideas for pins. He is a great designer, that X-factor in pinball design that seeks to give well engineered hardware, elegant software, beautiful artwork, solid craftsmanship, sleek animations, moving sound, etc. it's soul. One who I would love to learn from. I have worked with people like John before and been able to do some great things. Big and small. So when the owners reached out, we decided it was worth revisiting the situation and see if we could align interests and come up with a win.
Indie pinball operations cant all afford to keep a team of programmers/engineers/animators/etc on the payroll year round. Nor should they need to. And the time it takes to bring contract labor up to speed on things isnt always quick enough to keep up the momentum. We see scenario where designers can develop/prototype their games to whatever stage they feel comfortable and then be able to tap us in to help it come to fruition. If you are using FAST/MPF we can drop in and be ultra efficient. I find it really exciting because I love to problem solve. The idea of being a resource to other rad projects and help them to be as great as they can be is something I personally find very satisfying.
Our goal for the spring is to build up a game to show off the capabilities of the hardware and software. We will either be building up a game of our own or helping John with MG. Either way, we have budgeted the time to do the work it would take for a demonstration. This is time we would gladly trade towards getting John's MG rocking. Win-win.
Now business. Hell yeah we want to sell hardware. No doubt about that. We designed the hardware the way we did to use a small bill of materials, without sacrificing quality. This gets us great economies of scale. Even lets us manufacture the hardware stateside. As hardware volume increases, price per unit drops. While John has relatively short run games, when you merge a parts order to include MG/RAZA we are into the range of savings that really take the cost concern out of the equation. Our goal was to hit pricing at count 1 that was a good value for a solid platform that can take you from your custom game/prototype on through to a commercial release. But also scale up for a good price for volume orders.
So anyway, I guess my point in all this is that we are super stoked to get cracking on something. Timing is good as the hardware is out for manufacturing and the framework is maturing every day. Time to put it all to the test.
Getting to know many of the JPOP owners has been awesome. For real. Passionate people who care a lot about pinball and about John and want to see him make games for years to come. We are really giving this one more shot for the owners. But as we all know, it is John's decision. Regardless of what he decides with regards to our involvement, FAST/Mission are stoked to be a part of pinball and are looking forward to showing off what we can do in the days to come.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Dang, posts never look that long when you are typing them! Sorry for such a lengthy post.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:Are you sure you haven't been talking to Aaron already?
Did you tell him to?
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I'd totally be in. What a fun ride that would be.
Sure would! That's why we are chomping at the bit to get going on something!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:This time I had no behind the scenes manipulations!
Strategic networking!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from limelime20:This is the guy for the job for the software/board-work..!!, Let's get a production team together.!!
Seen it in person.
Brian brought the Portable Pin to life on MPF in no time. While fighting a migraine.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from limelime20:Your two beautiful people on the Jpop Job. Thank you.!
Lol. Roy and I are outside that shot. That's Brian and Dave.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Mocean:This really isn't required. You can do a lot of software development without the physical machine and then gain access when things are mostly in place (eg, using the keyboard for switch events, or the OSC client, or even visual pinball). The problems here are many, but I think access to the machine is only one piece of the puzzle.
That said, I /think/ I read a quote from Lyman Sheats that was something like "for every playfield there's one great game waiting to be coded, and 500 terrible ones" --giving people a platform to code a game is one thing, and making a fun game with that platform is another. Perhaps the most overlooked benefit of rapid development of the type MPF aims to deliver is that it could make scrapping a crap game and starting over a bit faster
While you can program a game without a physical machine, configuring and optimizing all the hardware controlling it is best done with the game itself. We would do a full hardware workup, as well as dial-in any unfinished features before writing game code. Then we can be reasonably sure that those writing code can be setup for success. I don't know the exact state of the game and I would have to assume that if the hardware is not settled, then there is some work to be done to get it all ready to go.
The ideal situation would be to get a playfield to work on and get a good run down on the way it is intended to operate. This can be done with the playfield in our workshop and John on video chat. Then after a week or two, John comes out for a few days to see it up and running. In person we can focus on dialing in the hardware performance to his specifications (flipper strength, magnet timing, etc) and get into his head a bit. This will help us move quickly to programming the game while continuing to refine the game build.
I think this would be a great experience for John. In the couple weeks between sending MG out and coming out to work with us, he can focus on RAZA without anyone concerned about his lack of attention to MG.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from sd_tom:Both on and off topic.. And NSFW.. Dang you can't tilt you tube links!
» YouTube video
OMG! What did I just see? I was half watching while writing code and I thought multiple YouTube videos were running together. Wow.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from jwilson:Someone said that Popaduik refused to do this with you. Is that true?
Nope. Still working out a game plan. But there has been no outright refusal. We spoke today. Will talk more over the weekend.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:based on his MO, I can't help but be pessimistic than any of the "mulling over" is a stall tactic because people are upset. We'll still be here in a month while it's being mulled over.
If there was a real desire to shake things up and get things done, now is the time for decisiveness. That would be either working with the Fast/Mission guys, or having a new programmer complete the work in-house.
Weeks & months are ticking by with neither done. Though I suspect the art on Alice is coming along nicely!
I didn't intend to portray him as mulling it over. I won't be able to give an adequate "play by play" of my conversations/progress with John for pinside while staying focused on sorting out the opportunity as well as all the other things we need to get in order for the hardware to be released.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:Pin programming is 90% troubleshooting and that requires a full flipping game.
Does Jpop even have that to give?
I feel confident that if we are given the opportunity to work with a playfield, we can bring it to life.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from sd_tom:Ok so if JPOP turns Aarons positive energy and optimism into another "never work with him again" story (I.e., history repeating itself for the nth time) ; you guys should prob just try to get whats left of your money back at that point.. How many spirits crushed is it worth?
The fact that Jpop may entertain this idea means one of two things. First that he's so far behind that he's been outright lying about progress.. You just can't be that oblivious as to your own progress. Or 2.. He's going to scrap what's there, probably crush one more persons spirits (nemo guy) and change directions again. Why would anyone want to support a person like this in the future / beyond the ones that are stuck .. Youve got no other choice.. More for people on AIW and beyond.
For now, let's keep positive. We will know before long if this approach is going to gain traction. It it is a non-starter, then we will know before putting in much time and energy and the owners can decide what to do from here. But for now, the optimist in me says "let's see where this goes" and I encourage others to let this run its course before pouring on any more negativity than is already present.
Believe me, I recognize all the signs (history with other devs, etc) that this is going to be challenging. But I also see the glimmer of hope and that's something we feel is worth exploring. We are not going to go broke exploring this opportunity with John. If it works out it will be a big win for pinball. If it doesn't, then all of us who tried to help John can meet up at Expo in the fall to share stories and the first round of beers is on me.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from RobT:I don't think anyone here really wants you to stop posting in this thread. You are a smart guy, you understand what people here are saying, and I'm sure you are sensitive to how things went down in the Predator thread with a few vendors taking a hit in credibility along the way. Being sensitive to that and being careful with what you say as fact is all people are asking for.
Like you said earlier, you refuse to do anything other than "guess" from now on.
Amen!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from HunchbackHodler:And he wanted to open a pinball school, you know, to teach students how it's done.
I thought it was a creative way to get people to work on games as "learning exercises." You gotta figure maybe 1 in 5 guys really messes up a playfield install. But the "class fee" would surely cover that! 
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Warbleboopie:If Jpop decides to let me work with him on the project, I will drive this to completion I guarantee it.
I wish you the best, for all the owners.
If things don't work out, you are more than welcome to join us for drinks at the JPOP'd Happy Hour at Expo in the fall.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:No worries, we are on the same side and we are all emotional.
This was refreshing to read. It's painful reading posts where everyone is tearing at each other or trying to hammer home some point at just the wrong time.
We really are all on the same side. The side of pinball lovers. It's probably the only thing that binds everyone on this website together. The pinball community needs to be supportive of its people. We don't always need to agree on everything, like all the same games or do the same things with our money. But when some in the community are hurting or others in it are doing wrong, we need to keep that perspective. Pretend for a minute before you post something that we are all sitting in the same room together. It usually helps you give that post a second thought before submitting.
On a personal note, many of you saw me get ripped apart over on the Skit-B thread because I vouched for the wrong guy. I got swept up in all the madness as the truth came out and it was horrible. Even when I was trying to help, it only seemed to draw more fire. But through all the pain I had to remember that people were hurting and reacting to all the developments in their own way. In the heat of the moment, we can't count on how we react. When it was at its worst, so many people in the community reached out privately in PMs, email, Facebook or text and that was amazing. That's the thing about community, a couple bad folks can't ruin it all on their own, if we take care of each other.
After the firestorm died down a bit, there were some posts made by folks who came along and chose to single me out and dig at me again. Not in the heat of the moment, but in what I have to assume they thought was the opportune time to be hurtful and not stand out as just being a dick. As lame as I thought it was I resisted the urge to engage. In fact, others who read it told me about it and advised me not to engage. It wasn't going to make anything any better. If that was how they want act, I can choose to ignore them.
I guess the bottom line here is that we are witnessing a few bad apples souring so much of our pinball community. Let's protect and support our community and not just try to win some senseless forum battle. Believe it or not, I have tightened up relationships with some friends and made new ones through this experience. Glass half full, right?
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from lllvjr:Jpop needs help, he's in over his head....i wish u guys were on board
It could have been so great. Even after all the ups and downs, if a playfield showed up at our space, we would see it through to completion, if only for the engineering exercise.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from TigerLaw:That would be amazing. I look forward to seeing yalls stuff in a pin one day.
Thanks. We got a full batch of hardware back from manufacturing last week. Getting the team together this week for testing and code refinement in preparation for a full launch. So stoked!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Cheeks:Speaking of CV 2.0H, when are we going to see ToTAN 2.0?
Yet another casualty of the jpop flameout. Bummer!
This was in very early discussion when Rick first mentioned it at Texas. Even I was unaware of all the other projects John had on his plate at the time. We have ToTAN right next to Funhouse in our shop. So its still on the list of projects, but it is not in heavy development at the moment.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:I believe (and could be wrong) having John involved was a potential 'perk' of the project, not a requirement.
JPop would have no claim to WMS code or assets either way - consulting him would be more a sales move for PPS than anything else imo. Having the original designer give input on CV/TotAN V2.0 is certainly more marketable than bringing on random coders or hobbyists to implement their vision.
Er, let me rephrase: Having the original designer give input on CV/TotAN V2.0 WAS certainly more marketable than bringing on random coders or hobbyists to implement their vision. Now, I think the opposite may hold true
That was the thought, that it would be fun to work with an original designer and bring out features that didn't make the cut, if possible. But working with the original designers was not required. Unfortunately with both the parties that were interested/eager to be involved at one point with ToTAN 2.0 and Funhouse 2.0 being a bit wrapped up in other business at the moment, there has been very little development on either.
The rest of us have been discussing how we want to move these projects forward. But for right now at least, everyone is sort of putting new projects on pause to focus on what we can control and make solid progress on. Mission Pinball is working towards their 1.0 software release and we (FAST) are getting hardware ready for full release. With both of these milestones behind us, it should be much easier to focus on new projects. Besides, times have changed. We have seen that there is nothing to be gained from talking about what you are working on. We want to show real development when it makes sense. it's just better that way.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Strange:I've heard this too and I can only see adding on to the TOTAN playfield as a very bad idea. In the end not everyone would agree if the new and improved rule set would be better than what we have now. It's important that we should be able to switch back and forth between new and old rules.
Of course. Playing "classic" game is a essential for a 2.0 release.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from dkpinball:Walks on water, can shoot lasers from my eyes, encyclopedic memory, invented the internet, trillionaire, incapable of feeling pain, unlimited cell phone minutes, fun at parties...
I have been laughing over this post for almost 30 mins now. Brilliant.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Don't do that man. I'd rather work with you and build any pinball game you want, for free if you pay for everything, than see you throw money down a black hole.
I can do the engineering, we could get FAST involved for the hardware and code, and maybe even convince Aurich to do the art.
I just don't want to see anyone lose more money.
Dream team? Lol there certainly is a crew of us eager to create some rad pinball. Baggage free!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ecurtz:I will code any pin for $24,995!* C#, Python, ARM assembly? We're too crazy to care! Just pick your board set and let us do the rest! Ask about our no whitewood required virtual pin service.
Seriously though, if John actually had a completed design for MG and wanted to get it programmed it wouldn't be THAT difficult of an endeavor. He'd just have to spend the extra $200 a machine or so to use a P-Roc or Fast board set instead of some custom monstrosity and suddenly there's a large community of people who could handle the job (presumably after being paid up front.) I can unfortunately relate to being a perfectionist and not wanting to finish anything if you don't think it will be just right, but you need to be able to let go of that once you start taking money.
*One game per customer, some limits may apply, void where prohibited.
But wait! There's more!
You want ramps?! We can do ramps! OMG ramps! Ramps! RAMPS! Vacuum formed goodness!
Lol I couldn't resist. Good stuff!
I think the best thing about my experience with JPOP is all the new people I have met in the process, not to mention all of us who have been brought closer through shared experiences. Glass half full!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Rarehero:I'm impressed by attitudes like yours....I'm not sure I could be so chill about it if I was part of this situation. I've met tons of amazing pin friends, but it didn't cost me $10k+ to do so.
Well at this point, I am only really out time. So it's certainly easier to look at the return on what the experience has cost me in a rosier way.
If I had anywhere near the hard money tied up in this as many other people do, I wouldn't be quite so positive.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I won't even guess as to the actual % of completeness. I do want to say for the benefit of those who have seen the games in progress, but have not actually built a game before, that you can have a game that LOOKS complete and still have TONS of work to do. Code to write and test and debug and test and rewrite and test and debug again. Animations to produce and optimize for all scenes, all scenarios. Service menus? All of this is assuming that all the toys function as intended and that the playfields actually shoot well.
I won't comment here as to what I think the actual state of things is because John's tone is becoming increasingly threatening. But anyone who has spent any time working on a pinball machine knows that you can have a pretty box full of pretty things and still have a long way to go until that game is ready to ship.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:Even if the FAST/Mission guys were overboard in their bravado about getting a machine flipping in 2 days, they certainly would have had something by now if John had just agreed to it 2 months ago or whenever that was being talked about.
How much different would the situation be if there was a Magic Girl playing in the FAST office and video of that was sent out?
All woulda coulda shoulda of course, but we saw these mistakes being made one after the next, and all roads lead back to John who put us here.
It was certainly a blown opportunity to add some momentum to the projects. Imagine being able to focus boldly on RAZA without leaving MG hanging? In fact, the progress on MG while RAZA was wrapping on design would been so motivating.
We could have been posting weekly videos on progress. The progress, the challenges, the joy, the pain! It could have been so much fun.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:I liked this part:
"But the knowledge and experience it takes to create a physical product--one that often needs to be manufactured overseas--relies on a different set of skills and relationships. Simply put: Entrepreneurship isn't art.
To the uninitiated, manufacturing physical products can be an incredibly tricky business, especially when it comes to contract manufacturing, designing product runs, managing inventory, shipping, logistics, etc."
That felt particularly relevant.
Also:
"It seems obvious now, but 'there's a huge gap between having an idea, and designing a product, and actually manufacturing something.'"
Very good points. I have run a business for 15 years focused in web based software. When we started FAST and created real physical goods, I learned so much about the many factors in play. The designing, the developing, the sourcing, the waiting, the testing, the cost! And then repeat the process again and again until you get it right.
I am glad we got to design and develop the FAST hardware without the pressure of other people's money hanging over us. The stress and the fear of shortcutting the process to just "get it done" vs. taking the time to develop it right, would just be too much.
If/when we ever seek outside funds I hope it would be to execute a well thought out plan that is exciting and provides a proper upside for investors. Not everyone has the stomach for that kind of risk. I certainly don't want to make any customer feel like they are embarking on a relationship with undue risk.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from PEN:Umm. I think that ship has sailed, if you are saying what I think you are saying.? Meaning preorder money.
Oh no, I didn't mean preorder money. That's crazy talk.
Traditional financing. If your plan is solid, your pitch is strong, you can find a financial partner. Pinball is a hard sell to potential investors outside of the community. You really need people who are passionate about pinball and believe in the project.
I meant only that there are better routes to go for financial support than putting that risk/burden on customers.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Rarehero:Play it at my house.
I'm only paying this much because it's Lebowski. I suspect this may be my last NIB pinball purchase. Can't think of many other dream themes....and I won't pay this much for just any game.
Can I be Aurich's +1?
Too expensive for me, but it's looking great!
Aaron
FAST Pinball be
Quoted from TigerLaw:Whoever comes in to finish the board set and code will want to start over. Those guys don't like "finishing" someone else's work, they will start from scratch most likely. I wonder if the original guy, whoever that was, could be re-hired?
Of course they would want to start from scratch, especially when it comes to supporting the work. If you bring in someone to finish some existing work, you will get just that. 6 months down the line when a bug is discovered or an issue arises, just how interested would they be to troubleshoot it? Nobody is going to want to pay someone to debug their game and issue a fix. It is assumed that would be taken care of like Stern, JJP and Spooky have done.
Support is a major concern for games like these. Any strategy for getting these games out the door has got to include a plan for supporting them for at least some reasonable period of time.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from lllvjr:He can't afford the tooling for ramps lol
We even offered to take care of his vacuum form ramp needs. Dammit. Why do I keep reading this thread? It's so frustrating to imagine how different this whole JPOP situation would be if he had sent us a playfield months ago. Sure, there would still be work to do but there would have been some significant progress on MG while he worked on RAZA.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Razorbak86:Aaron, were you planning to do all this work pro bono (i.e., for the "good of the pinball hobby"), or were you actually expecting to get paid? If the latter, what were your payment terms? Cash In Advance (CIA), Cash On Delivery (COD), Net 30, Net 60, Net 90, Net 120, Net 180, Net 360, Whenever-You-Get-Around-To-It (WYGATI)?
If you expected to get paid for work under an agreement, but Zidware was arguably insolvent, then Zidware likely would not have been able to perform under the terms of your proposed agreement.
I'm not excusing John's past business decisions. Unfortunately, many of his options in recent months have been severely limited by his apparent lack of funds, and your proposed agreement may have been one of them.
We felt that we could decent return on the time/effort it would take getting MG in order. Treat it as a way to show off the capabilities of the hardware. Donating our engineering time on MG. For hardware, I would have been willing to work a volume deal across all three titles over a period of time. At the low numbers of each game on their own, there wasn't room for a volume deal one title at a time.
For RAZA and AIW, John could hire us to do work needed or complete the projects internally building upon the work done with MG. Using the same hardware foundation title to title would have made that much more efficient. We could help with the unique toys/features per title, if needed.
So it was a bit of both. Some for the good of pinball, helping a great designer get games out. Some for the opportunity to get new hardware and a new software framework into some high profile titles. Plenty of room for some win-win.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Ok, so best case he sends you the game. You get a program going. Then what..hope this makes people order game number 4 to create funds to then build game 1 for all the buyers that already paid?
In your scenario we get a working prototype. Step 1.
But an important step. Remember too, this was proposed last fall when it was still "help a guy get his games to out the door" and not the "save the situation" state it is now.
It was assumed back then that the hold up was getting the game "finished." If the game was finished, then it could be produced. We never had any idea of the financial end of things until the news started coming out here.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Aurich:That would be Mission, not FAST.
Either way, it's way too much work for anyone to be expected to do it for free.
Spending a weekend getting a game flipping for free is one thing, spending months of your life working with John is another.
Correct. We wanted to work together to get things all set up. Then FAST was available to hire above and beyond that, same with Mission for full game programming.
Since no formal agreement was made, things stalled and we all moved on.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
In reply to razorback (quoting does weird things on my phone when they are huge), we moved on from our initial effort to work together at the end of last year. The flurry of activity since then was the result of buyers who reached out to us to see if we could help. With their support and the desperation of the situation we thought we could give it another shot. Maybe this time John would be compelled to take action (shit or get off the pot!) and, with the support of buyers, maybe we could get things done.
Over and over again, when it got down to "getting real" with a proper arrangement and game plan, things would stall... Only to pick up again weeks later like it was all fresh and the whole cycle would repeat.
We didn't have much to lose other than time. Our hardware wasn't created for John or tailored for him in any way. So we weren't in the same boat as others who put up hard goods in good faith and were left hanging.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ecurtz:Not that it isn't still ridiculously expensive on a per-ramp basis, but couldn't one just use the wooden model if they were only making a couple dozen ramps?
You can get great results that way, as well. Check out these ramp done by freeplay40:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/swords-of-fury-custom-ramps
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/high-speed-clear-ramp
He also did Space Station and Genesis ramps.
Add Magic Girl ramps to the list if the playfield ever made its way out to our shop.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from lachied:Probably a month and a half of development with most of the time spent on client software used for testing hardware, configuring a machine and debugging modes.
Pin Framework - Client v0.3.png (Click image to enlarge)
Pin Framework v0.4 - Switch Settings Highlighted.png (Click image to enlarge)
Pin Framework v0.4 - Direct Switch Rollover.png (Click image to enlarge)
Pin Framework v0.4 - Switch Matrix.png (Click image to enlarge)
Pin Framework v0.4 - Playfield Resizing.png (Click image to enlarge)
There is so much great development going on in pinball! Nice work!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Does anyone else think it would be hilarious if Whysnow showed up at JPOPs shop dressed as his avatar? Full Duffman costume! Someone secret camera record that! We could all use a laugh.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:So for those people who are more familiar with making ramps.... is the issue that you basically can't go from paper & cad to "final" without extensive testing?
The odds of getting it perfect the first time is basically zero? Especially for a big name designer known for their butter ramps?
I have seen some freaking perfect ramps created without ever using CAD that fit into existing pinball games. Wood, bondo, cement, etc. Its all about a workflow that works for you and the quantity you need to produce.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:I slept on the floor of my office 20 years ago for 2 years as I started a previous business. Not something I would do today with a family, but those are the sacrifices you make.
Ah the good ol' days!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ChrisVW:Of course. 2 pins self transport gets you a free weekend pass! It's going to be a great show. I'll be there all 3 days.
Me too. Looking forward to having FAST hardware FINALLY on sale too!
We are hosting a talk with Mission Pinball at 5pm on Friday, June 5th.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from TaylorVA:Does Zidware own the copyrights to the art and programming if they haven't been paid for?
Even if paid for, it isn't always a "copyright" situation. With a lot of programming work I do in other spaces I offer an "unlimited license to use but not for resale." This usually is an attempt to offer the client a cheaper solution.
Any time you get contract work done you need to define exactly what you are paying for and what you expect to own in the end, or you else you shouldn't be surprised to see the same designs used elsewhere. Sure, it's poor practice for maintaining happy clients, but not everyone cares about that.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from toyotaboy:plastic isn't hard to trim, just an x-acto knife and a steady hand. However, John said in his blog posting that he did have a laser cutter lined up. He has an in-house laser cutter, but that's meant for flat plastics, not vacuum formed stuff.
For those ramps an x-acto knife would be a little tough. I would personally bandsaw and then treat the edges, for a handful of ramps.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from zombieyeti:I've been asked to attend, and my one stipulation was that there's a) no John or b) proper security duty to protect the innocent when the pitchforks come out
Pull that hair back! From a distance, someone with eyes blood red from rage sees you standing next to a MG might mistake you for John!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:Bill your #1 goal for NW show should be to get the game shooting as smoothly as possible.
Don't worry about graphics, sounds, etc - as long as the code can cycle balls that's enough. Art is one aspect but in the end pinball is a mechanical game - it has to feel good.
Keep tweaking right up until you have to start driving, and then give yourself a good half-day to fix whatever shakes loose after the drive.
Agreed. Bill, if you and your posse want to come out a couple days early, you guys can setup in my shop and tie up anything. It is just across the bridge from the venue. Any tools/resources needed to be sure the game is show ready would be on hand.
There is also a bar across the hall.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from YKpinballer:I'm starting to think with all these evil people showing up in boutique pinball, Chuck is going to turn out to be an axe murderer or something haha.
lol. Spooky's next game! Chuckie's Revenge!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from applejuice:I did the base framework for it, the os and i created the hardware interface to drive the segment displays that it used.
And there's another perfect example of the silo structure. Myself and Eric were talking and working together on some projects, but then another one springs up and John doesn't even mention it to me, so Eric ends up creating a load of stuff which we probably already had in other project areas!! Of course it was only a mockup demo type thing, but still
I hear you on the silo. Zidware was looking for a "hardware/software solution" and talking to us about one since this time last year because P-ROC was "too expensive" and "people kept abandoning him." But reading these comments about hardware/software remind me of Gerry's comments made somewhere about someone ripping off his work after getting his support. Of course at the time I thought it was a jab at us, but later learned he was referring to someone else who was ACTUALLY making hardware to take advantage of the software in the P-ROC community and cut Gerry's controller out of the BOM. Which even though I know Gerry has zero love for what FAST is doing and we are accused all the time of "ripping off P-ROC", I still think it's a shitty move to try and take advantage of the P-ROC communities willingness to help in software developement with the assumption it would be run on a P-ROC, only to target other hardware with it in the end. Just bad business and not how you treat people.
I knew based on Eric's posts on Pinside that he had been involved to some degree at some period of time, but didn't learn of applejuice's involvement (though at the time it was just as an unnamed developer) until after our visit last fall.
I am glad to hear that applejuice had a flipping game a long time ago because it is truly not hard to do. I never understood why getting a "flipping whitewood" was being treated like a major milestone. In reality it's the "I can work on a pinball game!" minimum requirement for for saying so. This is why I was so confused about the game supposedly not flipping yet. I told John to send us a playfield. Not because we were unwilling to go out to his shop, it just wasn't necessary. We had left hardware with John when in Chicago and yet were never connected to people doing the actual integration work. I can talk someone through getting a flipping white wood going with our FAST hardware over the phone in a few mins, so it would have been so easy.
Bleh. Over and over again, we have learned how much more effort was put into making it harder for people to be productive on these games than actually than just coordinating their development. All John had to do at any time was just stand back and say "this is my team!" and just let everyone do their work. He could have coasted on that for years and years and been the rockstar he wanted to.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:I'm going to suggest to Pintasia that as soon as the game is fixed up, ramps, missing parts, etc, you shoot & post a video of a game being played on it. Do this BEFORE you move the game to the west coast.
There is a lot of cynicism and pessimism, for good reason, and a TON of pressure of debuting the game at this show. If the game can be shown playing before you bring it to the show, it will take some of the pressure off of expectations.
It seems like a recipe for disaster to keep things on the down low this last week, and if the show doesn't go 100% perfectly it will be another shit storm.
And if you can't shoot a good video, then what's the point of bringing it to the show? It'll just be a clusterF again.
I think they can just set the bar low. "Come see MG in its current state." They aren't pledging to have the game done or anything. Whether Pintasia's plans work out or not, at least there has been the flood of new information about the state of things.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from toyotaboy:Even though most people aren't expecting a finished game, I'd imagine for some (even as forgiving as pinball folk are), that nothing is ever going to live up to the expectations of a mass produced 16k game that took 4 years to develop. Remember when duke nukem forever came out 12 years later? Everyone hated the rushed programming with linear levels, and there were competition games that were far deeper and more detailed (with better loading times). It was in the bargain bin for $5 after only being out a few months.
Toyota, the message you posted has me being quoted for stuff I did t say. Probably a hiccup in the quoting but could you please correct that? Thanks man.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:What is that current state? The faster we know it the better. Because if we wait for the show, and there's a lot of "all this for THAT?", there is probably no recovery from that.
Expectations have been repeatedly set HIGH because we've been told time and time again from people "inside" that the game is "near complete", yada yada.. So if it's anything less than that, that better be disclosed quick as a way of getting ahead of another shit storm.
I expect that it will be flippable running software that is in progress and have some hardware features that are not fully integrated.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from applejuice:Well at least you know now that "people kept abandoning him" translates to -> I worked on all the projects for about 2 years, had a signed contract, put 100% in, continued for an additional 3 months with no pay, sold my own pinball games to keep myself going, nearly went bankrupt and a breakdown in the process.
Thanks John. I'm going for a beer and to watch some TV...........
No kidding. I made the assumption that "abandoning him" was more of a "I have better shit to do with my time" sorta thing.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Whysnow:Where is the Yetti and FAST.
I hope they are paying attention to this since they are now facilitating the selling of the game and promotion of it at NW show.
We don't have a horse in this race. I just offered our space to prep the game for the show after Yetti made the long drive. I am involved in the planning for the NW Pinball Show and know that there wouldn't be a space for them to do that at the show.
It's a prototype. Contents may shift during transport.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:Take John to the NW show, and have a charity Dunk Tank he has to sit in.
All proceeds go to the MGRAZAAIW relief fund.
LOL the dunk tank was my idea!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from zombieyeti:Appreciate the kind words. The sh!t part for me is I was paid as I went (sometimes after checks lost in the mail) and the unpaid invoice(s) are for RAZA playfield final inks & color work. So I'm not sure what that means for me if zidware goes belly up.
That said, to recoup I have considered sellingthe first MG prototype backglass... But not sure it'd be desirable, all things considered
image.jpg
And a side note to prove my geek cred - that Shakespeare bust on my desk is a working one from Batman 66 they remade a handful for the TV movie shoot about 10 years ago and I snagged one
It's operates my lights in the studio...
There should be a new thread started for showing off the hard work of all those who contributed to these projects!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:So in the meantime, let's pop a top and get excited about this weekend!
I really can't wait to see what's in store for us, plus the show in general should be great. Live streaming. Aaron will post the link here
nwpinballshow.com has the link to the live stream. This should be mostly the speakers (FAST/Mission go on at 5pm Friday )
I am headed back to the venue now but I'll post a pick of where Magic Girl will sit if it makes it it the show.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Revo76:Did you mean behind the exit door ?
Outside on the street.......
I guess many will look, but will probably walk away if they know the what where and how.
Not going to send a single dime to Pintasia.......Poooof, money gone.
It was chosen (I was told) because it was far away from the kids zone and could be easily pulled off the floor if drama develops. Makes me wonder what others know that I don't?
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ecurtz:So where is it? Not at the show as far as I can tell. Still being fine tuned at the hotel?
I was told it would come tomorrow...
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from pinballrockstar:y passing away the last few days?"..
A family member. Really nobody on pinside's business. Drop it.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from pinballrockstar:pf mellow out man,i did not understand the context,thats all..jezus
No worries. It just would be really sad if this thread/pinside went that direction.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from wcbrandes:First and foremost, I would like to express my deep gratitude to everyone who dedicated their time and effort to help bring Magic Girl to light. Without everyone's effort this would not have been possible.
I would also like to personally thank everyone who believed and supported me in this endeavor.
After working and speaking with a lot of you, who know pinball development inside and out, and finally getting an opportunity to see how far along Magic Girl really is, I have decided that it is not worth my effort or finances to move this to completion.
Despite the fact that I'm not going to continue with MG, I do not regret the investment I have made as I hold the friendships cultivated at a much higher value.
Thanks again for all your support and patience.
Best regards,
Bill
Sometimes the hardest thing to do is walk away from something you want to save. But at the end of the day the problems here weren't your doing and the enormous amount of energy needed to correct them could be better spent elsewhere. The effort you and the many who rallied around you put forth to get all of this madness out in the open is certainly respectable.
It was great to meet you and many of those who worked their asses off to get the game to the show this weekend. Not to mention those who put time into the game over the years who were also at the show. This weekend really did allow a lot of those hurt by the Zidware experience the opportunity to talk and have a little community.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
We did something similar but with a smaller form factor. Single screw.
I think John's big lighting idea was more about a system of trusses and such to act almost like stage lighting. I believe he had a domain and website for it at one point.
EDIT: See epthegeek's post above.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from epthegeek:The lighting 'Structure System' is not the LED boards under the playfield. He has this stage-lighting like rig that was a long metal pole that ran along the side of the playfield, up in the air, angled with the glass. It attached to a support post at the front and the back. All the items (lights, decor, whatever) were attached to the pole and (at least in the prototype) secured with thumb screws. The whole thing was hideous, and he seriously thought it was an amazing idea. Space Mission X was going to use it. I think it was on the Kiss prototype too - but since that was a rock-band/stage type thing, it kind of worked with that game. It was still too bulky/gaudy though.
Update: you can see it in this picture from the Kiss Prototype thread. It's not angled up as much on the kiss proto as it was on the SPX game, but you can see the basic structure of the thing.
217868.jpg
There you go. Eric is describing what I was referring to. I agree with Eric, when I first saw it on KISS I thought it was a design choice to match the rock concert stage lighting style and let it go, but as a "product," meh.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Also, I thought this was hilarious.
JPop said: "I may not get to emails for a while as I average 125 each day or more."
My work inbox laughs in his general direction. It gets reset every quarter.
mail.jpg
That quote always makes me laugh too. I would LOVE to only get an average 125 emails a day!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from wcbrandes:Guys, I did go over the books, although was done in a 3 day period (or more like 5 working days as went at it around the clock). He was paying himself, if I recall roughly 7500 a month and he is was out of money or so he said. Even at 90k a year to himself that's almost half right there as he took in about 925k total.
Not sure there is a ton of "valuable merchandise" to liquidate however it will be interesting to see what comes of this. I would think there is enough for the government and trustees not too sure what will be left over for the approximate 150 customers.
I feel very stupid to have spent time and even more money than I already had, however I wanted to see if these games were at the 90 to 95% finished state as was told. Not even close, I would say more like 50 to 60 on MG and of course down from there. Disappointing.
Wow. Imagine what many of us could accomplish with that kind of money! I had assumed (hoped?!) he had other income and had also heard the rumor that his wife subsidized his pinball endeavors. But burning through that much money dreaming up ideas and building up a nice workshop is just not right. You get to build your dream workshop AFTER you get a successful product to market, show your business is viable and can show that the addition of a dream workshop makes the business even more productive.
This whole Zidware endeavor reeks of entitlement and arrogance, lead in full by something with no clue how to run a business.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from jrivelli:This was too funny to read this morning on Facebook...Pm'd the guy and he got paypal payment for it. wtf?
jpopcard.PNG
I saw that and added the one I got.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ChadH:If I win tomorrow's Powerball ($80 million) then I will give $3.2 million to finish this.
So don't give up hope just yet. If you don't hear from me by Monday then assume I did not win.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if you DID win and JPOP called you up? "So Chad, let make some magic with that $3.2 million!"
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Sorry, I fucked up there.
How did I come up with 95%?
I played the Whitewood which is more complete than the prototype. There's video proof of that.
My biggest mistake was I trusted what Jpop told me.
For that I apologize, but I would also like to point out John wasn't giving refunds past that date. I doubt my posts kept anyone from getting (or not getting) a refund.
I know how you feel. You had no reason to not believe him.
When we were talking to John it was around the possibility of getting our hardware into AIW. At one point I had to ask him, "Are you going to be able to get MG out? Do you need help? Because you have got to get something out..." His reply worried me, "I need to get something out... or I need to get out. Like to Mexico."
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Did anyone else get the feeling that Jack was trying to present John as someone who just needed the right help? Like, say, from him? Maybe Jack is considering picking up John as a designer now that he is desperate and perhaps willing to work for someone else?
Jack would know that there is enough of the JPOP fan base out there that really knows very little about Zidware. He could say, "John Popadiuk who designed the well known games you love is now designing a new JJP title!"
And I am sure there would be a lot of people who would still buy the game. I wouldn't expect Jack to get tangled all up in MG or RAZA, but AIW is another story...
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:Maybe John could get a new job building housing. He could build the roof first, basement last, and figure out how to wire it after all the drywall is installed.
I hope the glass fits in the windows!!!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:I was just going through some old files and came across this package from Zidware that I never opened until today.
It was sent from Zidware on December 14th, 2014. Essentially asking for another $2000 payment on AIW.
IMG_4880.JPG
Wow. Just wow.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from iceman44:Anybody else get one of these? He actually signed it. I guess it was supposed to make me feel good about sending in another 2k?
If its not an example of fraud and simply trying to steal more money from people I don't know what else to call it?
IMG_4882.JPG
So he gets to sign Jeremy's work? And what is "approved?"
"Here is your original print with some stupid, meaningless stamp over it! Enjoy and send me more money!"
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Pinballs:I, like many others, thought that this artwork was by Jpop. It's clear he wanted this interpretation. Deceit upon deceit...
Oh me too. I had no reason think otherwise especially when he was autographing art pieces for people at the NW Pinball Show a couple years ago!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:"The completed Magic Girl game shipped to the NW Pinball show in Seattle, and looked great!"
LOOKED great. Clearly that's all John ever cared about.
It only looked great to those walking up and glancing at a pretty box. As I stared at it I couldn't help but think, "that won't work... Why is that there? That could be kinda cool if it was fixed like this..."
Not to mention the fact that for someone who bragged about all the time he spent on wiring design the lower cabinet looked like a rats nest.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:The expo seminar list is out. Looks like they had the good sense to not include Jpop. I don't know whether I'm happy or sad about that, would've made for some great drama.
8:00 p.m. Banquet - Lake Michigan Ballroom
with Special Guest Speaker
...or did they???
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Many people offered to help John. How quickly he forgets the countless hours spent by many people who were just trying to help him AND those who lost their money in all this.
Hearing John on the Coast 2 Coast podcast makes me sad. Sad, as in the way you feel when you see an old man wandering in public asking for his wife who passed away years ago.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
John is trying to get hired. The bit about how he has changed and that it was a good that he turned down Stern's "generous offer" because he wouldn't have been good for them at the time. Now he has learned so much and has changed and would be great on a team.
So Stern, JJP, Heighway, etc. John is ready and willing to come work for you now!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from benheck:I would like to clarify that while I feel bad it came to this, I don't feel sorry for John.
I feel the same way here. We are human beings. Like Ben, I have worked really hard at my businesses over the years and it pains me to see people like John have something like this happen. There are two reasons why I feel this way:
1) I really don't like seeing opportunity blown. John had a HUGE opportunity here! I was working hard for the opportunity to help make it happen! It looked that good!
2) For those who have run their own business, having someone tell you, "well, pinball is different..." when talking about basic business 101 stuff, makes you seriously doubt their abilities. I was motivated to help John in order to help those who paid for the games. After beating your head against the wall with him you start to wonder, "why is this guy even involved? He is just gumming up the works!" Especially when I learned he wasn't even the guy creating the art he was signing!
I have learned that you can't care more about someone else's problems than they do and expect to feel anything but heartache. Had John listened to and took the advice of the people who cared enough to spend time getting to know him and his business, this situation would not have turned out this bad.
Making pinball is hard? Sure. Running a business is harder. Running a pinball business is really hard. John had no idea what it was like running a pinball company. Hearing him talk about other pinball companies was just annoying. Who was he to say anything about any other company? In his day he worked in one area of a pinball company where everything else was taken care of for him. Collect your paycheck and go home. Running a business is nothing like that.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Pinballs:Re AIW, this is out of copyright- huge opportunity for anyone to develop this wonderful theme. There are plenty of other examples- some Sherlock Holmes stories are out of copyright now. HG Wells etc.
Basically we're limited only by the imagination
It's a bit of a tough situation. I would love to put together a team and create an awesome AIW pin, but what do you do about all those in limbo from JPOP? I don't know the specifics of how many people are out how much money on AIW, maybe there is a to produce new design and give some sort of "sorry you got screwed by JPOP" credit. But then what about those that got screwed on MG/RAZA? One could argue that if they had not been strung along, the opportunity to get screwed on AIW wouldn't have existed. Should MG/RAZA buyers be given the "screwed by JPOP" credit?
The mind just spins 'round and 'round on what is right, what is fair, what makes sense business-wise, what would make for a great title.
I can swing one way and say, "an all new original JPOP-free AIW would be great! This new AIW wouldn't put people's money at risk and be a great success!" and another way, "why not pick a whole new title and not have any baggage at all?" and then one last swing, "screw JPOP for tarnishing what would be a brilliant pinball!!!"
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from wcbrandes:sounds as if your going down the same path I was before the tittles were really tarnished and no matter how you do it someone is inevitably gonna find something wrong or not fair? The only thing you can do is take a tittle and start from scratch. Whoever lost their money lost no matter what tittle. I do think AIW is the one to build, the other two were retreads and a pile of crap!
For sure. We have had this conversation before. It seems every other month it really bugs me how badly John blew this opportunity!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Concretehardt:"The opportunity to get screwed"... man you can't make this shit up
image.gif
Slicing bits of text out of context sure removes their intended meaning, now doesn't it? 
No offense intended towards anyone hurt by this debacle. Just sharing what spins around in my head after my experience with all of it.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Concretehardt:That wasn't a slam on you Aaron, it's just the whole situation and JPOP... it still blows my mind when I think about it.
No prob!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Rum-Z:Then he can sell it to other people and have them all believe in it.
beLIEve!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from frolic:That's my understanding. Was curious to hear Aaron's thoughts though. Or was it another "bullet dodged" like some of the others and would have turned into a nightmare.
Well, I think that if John had sent us the playfield we would have been able to get our FAST hardware controlling what was there pretty quickly. We would have had the "flipping whitewood" in days. I think that this would have exposed any problems with the design from an engineering standpoint. I expected that there would still be work to do on that front. Keep in mind, we didn't know that there wasn't enough money to finish the job at this point. I think that if we could have got the playfield flipping and could have started a good steady march through refining the game and developing the game code, I think things could have turned out differently.
If we were able to manage the project and get full transparency on the financial state of things, I feel we could have delivered a real world "this is where we are and this is what it will take to get us to the finish line" outline to the owners. Maybe there could have been an arrangement that got the games made that required more time and money, but at least got them made. I think that there could have been some way to restructure things with the owners if the project wasn't left in John's hands alone. I told John that I wanted to bring my small business experience to the table for him and not just help build the game. He needs to be a designer and that's it. He needed help on most fronts.
I got to know a lot of the owners through the experience. A lot of great people in a tough situation. Each with their own background and expertise that could have been used to help drag this project to the finish line. Many people were willing to help, as we all saw, there was just no way to help John with John in charge.
All in all, I learned a lot. It's no secret that FAST wants to build pinball machines. We want to be the engineering/manufacturing back end to pinball designers/design studios. John could have worked with us and not against us and things could have be so different. Designed by Zidware, Engineered & Manufactured by FAST Pinball. It could have been a match made in heaven? Maybe?
A lot of great people I have met over the last few years have encouraged us to keep on track with our plans. Moving on without the baggage of John's problems would probably be the best way for us to keep focused and reach our goals someday.
I look forward to taking delivery of our next manufacturing run of FAST hardware tomorrow (assembled in Seattle, WA!), updating our website (finally!) this weekend to show all the latest developments and keep on the steady crawl/walk/run approach to making more pinball.
Not sure if I really answered your question. Haven't thought about this stuff in a while. Let me know if I can try to answer any other questions for you.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Compy:Simply put (and not surprising), John owns no such patent. The guy lives in his own false sense of reality and its really quite sad... and enraging.
Probably thought since he lived waaaaaaay overseas he probably hadn't heard of a video playfield project.
He DID know enough about P-Roc to clone it. So claiming not to know about Gerry's project is not very believable!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from Razorbak86:Come on, now. That's not totally fair. He dedicated a little time to deception, too.
beLIEve!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from applejuice:If this wasn't the case, i wouldn't even be mentioning not getting what was agreed and i certainly wouldn't have spent 2 years working with zidware without a contract in place. This wasn't a hobby for me.. It was a career choice. You should listen to my interview with thisflippinpodcast for more insight. $11k was missing from the invoices by the end of my time there along with NO GAME and was why i had to stop working for them.
so to clear up any confusion YES i did.
Who decided that the only people due a game are the people who sent in cash? Those who spent an enormous amount of time working on MG would still be getting only pennies on the dollar IF they actually got a MG in the end. If it was, in fact, John's decision to leave out those who worked tirelessly on his games, well, that speaks volumes for his character. There are some who feel that John is losing his mind. In one of his lucid moments he said to me, "I have got to get these games out. Or I better get out. Like to Mexico." Joking or not, he knew how bad things were in that moment. But not a day later he would be aloof and confused. Just the kind of person you love telling you all the time, "Now Aaron, pinball is different..." when you would challenge them on business and operational basics.
We only wasted some time, postage and gas in our efforts to try and help John. To be crystal clear, I absolutely do not feel like we are owed anything at all. But when I see all this MG activity and none of it includes games going towards fulfilling commitments to those who actually did the work, well it just pisses me off.
I had no idea Jeremy (zombie yeti) even existed until he showed up on Pinside. I thought John was the artist. Why? Because he was signing the artwork like it was his while he was at the NW Pinball Show. Instead of using readily available pinball controllers, he decided getting a controller made for him made sense because he didn't like that pricing seemed too high (thinking he should get high volume pricing for game runs of <20?). He would talk about ideas which you shared with him as if they were his own (I had to stop him more than once and make sure he understood that repeating an idea in his own words did not make it his idea, too) and he hated being called on his distortion of fact. John always had someone to blame for something. He was petty and foolish.
John claimed that he wanted to mentor and teach the making of pinball to a new generation of pinball designers. What I learned from John Popadiuk was that the work of a pinball game designer is only a fraction of what it takes to make and sell a pinball game. Without a solid team, resources, infrastructure and someone actually running the business, you are just noodling away endlessly towards whoknowswhat. Running a business and leading and inspiring a team isn't easy and it certainly doesn't just happen as a bi-product of a bunch of talented, passionate people working together. John spent more time and energy trying to control everyone he worked with than he ever did teaching or mentoring in any meaningful way. It was this approach to leadership that had John burning through designers, artists, animators, engineers, programmers, and more. Instead, he could have stood back and had a killer team knocking out some pretty amazing pinball. But John couldn't get out of his own way and let great people do great work together.
I want nothing more than for those who are owed games and money from John to be made whole, if at all possible. But the legacy of John Popadiuk will be that of someone who preyed upon the goodwill of many kind, enthusiastic and supportive people in a selfish manner unmatched by anyone I have ever interacted with on even a semi-business level. I will remember John as someone who used people and who snatched away pinball money that could have been spent on the pinball creations from other companies. Saddest of all, for some, John turned playing pinball into a sad reminder of being taken advantage of by someone they once admired.
That's enough.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from TheNoTrashCougar:I would be interested to see the boardset. From what I hear it is a P-ROC clone. Want to see if John actually reverse engineered my Computer Startup/Shutdown system that he never paid me for and used it in the final version of the game hardware.
--Scott
Here are a few pics I snapped at the NW Pinball Show. There is one small board that looks like it could by a startup/shutdown board above the PC board, mounted vertically.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from pinballrockstar:The short version of this topic in case you don't feel like reading 465 pages.
Made a easy to understand comic:
Ah yes, the day sat and signed the artwork created by others like it was his own...
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ChrisVW:There's a rumor that a contractor was used to program the Arduino boards that control the lamps on Magic Girl and the guy then installed the boards at AP during production. Does anyone know the name of the guy that worked on the Arduino boards and software for the 25 Magic Girl games?
I don't know exactly what commands are being sent to the arduino but there are libraries out there that can be used to control the leds.
Here is great one: http://fastled.io
No relation to FAST Pinball.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ChrisVW:I've got an Arduino on the way, this will be a good start. Thanks Aaron!
Sure thing. Let me know how it goes.
On our FAST Controllers we use a coprocessor setup where one processor manages communication from the PC and the state of the RGB LEDs. Then another handles instructions from the first processor and tells the leds what color to be in the method they require.
In your setup, I expect something similar where the Arduino is the second processor, taking commands from the PC.
If you can identify the message format being sent to the arduino then creating a "sketch" to work with it shouldn't be too hard. Especially when using frameworks like the one I linked to above.
Good luck!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from ChrisVW:I think that opportunity has passed unfortunately.
That is a bummer. Who programmed each arduino to put in each MG before they went out the door? I don't imagine that the programmer of the arduino sketches bought all the arduinos, programmed them and then brought them into American Pinball to install them.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
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