I agree with that. No arguments there. I still believe a group justified the price tag by juxtaposing it to BBB.

Absolutely....that's why Jpop priced it so high...this project was announced when BBB prices were at what, $20k+? And Tron LE and BIBLE were up at like $13k.

http://www.thepinballblog.com/2009/07/pinball-heroes-john-popadiuk.html

"I started working at the Bally Pinball Division at the ripe old age of 19! Norm Clark brought me in to work in engineering with legends like Jim Patla, Greg Kmiec, Gary Gayton, George Christiansen, Greg Freres, Paul Faris, Ward Pemberton, Claude Fernandez, etc.....My first job was lab tech in the whitewood lab. It was a wild job! At that time all themes were attached to games AFTER the whitewood was playing well. Not the way we do it today. I was able to work with everyone at Bally and eventually Williams after Bally was bought in 1988"

That would imply he started working at Bally as a whitewood tech in 1985? I know when he transferred to Williams, Jokerz! was on test almost ready to go into production. It also implies that he's been working on pinball from 2000-2011, which was only zizzle. It also makes JPOP 49 years old this year.

His Linked In states he started at Bally in 1980. We do know he was not hired as a designer but started in a jr position and eventually designed games for them.

That's final shipped price for all intents and purposes.

Not sure there has ever been a case where a theme brought in any significant number of sales from anyone that was not already a pinball enthusiast. I recently talked with an industry insider on this subject and I got the impression that while there have been a few cases over time where they thought that would be the case, it just did not materialize. Not saying there won't be any, but would be insignificant, even in a small run.

Maybe an invite for some back door action?

Pinball machines aren't "investments" in the traditional sense of the word, but their ability to hold value very well, and in some cases appreciate beyond the purchase price, has been a HUGE factor in the hobby's strength these last 5 years.

This is just a funny anecdote, but the person you're talking with happens to be someone who's a big Metallica fan and bought his first pin because he was a fan of the band.

And it seems like the Metallica fan club did actually move a decent amount of units. What does that mean though? Is 100 people buying their first pin a significant number?

No argument from me. There is however a contingent that feel all nib games have to go down since they are "used".

Everyone has their own perspective on pin values because of what they've read/saw/experienced. The games from Stern seem to go down in value with exception to a few machines (Tron, LOTR). Recent NIB pins from Stern now are being sold hundreds below what they were worth (ST, TWD). While old Williams/Bally games from the 90's continue to increase in value. There's really no concrete rule here and it really depends on the demand of a particular pin at any given time. Who knows, maybe ST and TWD will increase in value in the next 5 years? We'll never know with 100% certainty. But I think Ben's dead on:

lol...! Even MY twisted mind didn't go there.

Everybody did. 13 Magic Girls designed and built by JPop? They would have been worth a FORTUNE. Rarer than rare. They would have arguably been the most desirable game ever made. That is why this whole project failed from the beginning. Magic Girl games were Golden Tickets and John was Willy Wonka. Nobody wanted to speak up and lose their spot. There is a price to pay for visiting the Wonka Factory and not following the rules...

No disagreements there. I'm not sure exactly how my comments are being misinterpreted but I agree with ben's assessment.

Yea I was referring to my situation, but being somewhat of a noob, I still feel a licensed theme is going to pull in non pinheads over a non licensed theme. How Many?? Good question...

Oh I was just adding on top of your comment . I remember when I first got into the hobby around 3 years ago, the first thing that was pointed out to me was how pinball machines appreciate over time. I'm from Canada and the logic in pricing pins are a little different than in the states. Where I live pins typically go for higher, even $1000 more than in the US due to supply and demand. It kind of evened out now given the strong US dollar :/.

I have a co-worker who is a HUGE metallica fan (probably went to 30 concerts in his lifetime). When I asked him if he had heard there was a metallica pinball out, he had no clue. He didn't even know they were still building pinball machines. Told him he should go seek out a machine before they go off route, even sent him links to locations around Chicago, he still hasn't gotten around to playing one even though he thought it was cool when I showed him a video of gameplay.

I think there was a belief that Mustang would generate lots of sales to guys who didn't have a pinball machine, but would want to add a Mustang themed machine to their garage/shop. I am pretty sure Mustang was not a strong seller, but that could also have to do with the fact that pinheads didn't take to it very well.

This is normal

99.999% of everything you have ever bought will go down in value when it's time for you to sell it.

Cars, iPods, computers, TVs, Diamonds, Furniture, power tools......

Very few machines have even kept up with inflation, so if you think about it, they have gone down in value, just like most Sterns.

The Shadow would have to sell for $5,200 to have kept up.

KISS would have to be $6,400

Mustang is a great example of something that "on paper" might have sold well outside pinball. To both dealerships and Mustang car guys who spend a ton on their cars. But it didn't. And the only reason Mustang is selling better now is because the actual game has proven itself to be quite fun and its reputation amongst pinheads has improved.

Very true, never thought about it in terms of inflation from original price tag, but present day transactions of old 90's pins can still yield great return (ex: the flippers out there ).

My dealer has a Mustang in the lounge, but there is no for sale sign, or anything that would let the public know that they could own a pinball machine.

All the Mustang forums talked about the game, but did any non pinheads buy it? Probably a few, but who knows?

I would have thought that lots of dealerships would want one, great way to keeps occupied when mom and dad are buying the car. But from what I have been told, the opposite is true, most dealerships like for the kids to be annoying mom and dad, it distracts the parents and shortens up the negotiations.

I think we have all know for a while now that you are not "normal", so this is actually a meaningless comment/data point On a serious note, was it that you never thought about owning a pinball machine before that or was it a case of you had been wanting to, and Metallica was the push you needed to get you off your butt and actually buy one?

Rosh, he was referring to me, whom you had quoted. And I really wasn't looking for a pin, but I have a buddy who is into,pins and has some enroute. The minute he heard about Met, he texted(and I was working in Afghanistan at the time) I was all in. The combination of making good money, killer theme and a new house to populate all came together. I'm looking for a second pin now!

?? Where does this come from ??

Take away the magnet tricks and Cameron's CV rules, and John is about as mediocre as pinball designers come. Five games, none of which are really recognized for their gameplay... rather about artwork and toys. Hell, John Borg runs rings around this guy, and I used to be the biggest Sega hater. Popadiuk is great for inventing gadgets, and maybe directing artwork, but that's about it IMHO. I've owned 4 of those 5 games and can't say I miss one. Well, maybe WCS a little. Game is just so happy.

Disagree - ToM, TOTAN, and CV's gameplay are fantastic. More than artwork and toys. Physically, they shoot beautifully. Smooth loops, interesting ramp designs. ToM is probably the fastest, smoothest, flowiest game out there. They have cool themes, great art, music and killer presentation. Some people seem to have issues with some of the rules (complaints I don't really understand)...but they're clearly the in the vocal minority. They're very satisfying games to shoot, and there's a reason they're in demand. If they truly played poorly, demand and satisfaction with those games would have waned already.

I agree as well. Love ToM (was my first pin!), TOTAN and CV. Never played WCS but always wanted to own one as I heard good things about the game. I know there's the side of pinball players who think JPOP's games are redundant or too easy, and then there's the collectors like us who love them game. I've come to terms that not everyone will fall in love with JPOP's games. I have and they'll never leave my collection.

Any game can be too easy....and every game has multiple physical & software settings to tweak it to your liking. I dunno, my ToM is set stock and I've never been able to to make it through all the modes in one game. I guess the main complaint with ToM is lack of wizard mode? *shrug* ...I wouldn't have seen it anyway lol. CV can be easy but it's still such a fun experience I don't mind getting to Join the Cirqus on a regular basis.

It's official then: there is a zero percent chance of me owning a NIB TBL.

Yeah, once I dropped out of the pre-order the chances of me owning one plummeted, the price just got too high.

Play it at my house.

I'm only paying this much because it's Lebowski. I suspect this may be my last NIB pinball purchase. Can't think of many other dream themes....and I won't pay this much for just any game.

TOM, and CV are amazing games, but they became boring much quicker than just about any modern Stern. I liked the look and feel of both of those games a lot more than most Sterns. I don't care if I'm the only one who thinks it, but rulesets trump all else in the long run.

Can I be Aurich's +1?

Too expensive for me, but it's looking great!

Aaron
FAST Pinball be

Exactly.

And I would add: if the above were not true, would you really have as many people buying RAZA, MG, or AIW for these prices? I don't think so.

I agree with both Rarehero and Rob, this guy knows how to create an experience in pinball which makes it all the more disappointing where this thing has gone or better worded not gone

It's got one...it just blows.

LOL! Yeah, riiiiiight.
When that Rush machine comes you'll be in line, oh yes, you'll be in line.

It blows so bad because it isn't complete. Hell, it's debatable whether it even has one.

Never missed any Jpop game after it left. WCS was neat for a little while and so was CV but both got old fast. TOM was the shortest lived game ever in my house. It was up for sale almost as soon as I got it and that never happens with me. I keep games for years, not weeks. TOTAN like the others is a beautiful game, I don't even like the game play on that one enough to give it a chance.

I agree that some Stern rulesets have gone above and beyond...but above and beyond ANY B/W game. That being said, the "classic" 90's B/W games still offer a unique original experience that Stern's cannot offer...and if we're comparing Jpop's B/W games to other B/W games - I don't see how any of them can be considered to have worse gameplay or rules than their peers. They absolutely belong "in the club".

Yeah, you're right...but will anyone do Rush? I have my doubts. If someone does it, I hope it's Stern, as the price will be a bit lower & Lyman is a huge Rush fan and would do it justice.

I don't know sales numbers, but this was the first year I ran into a pinball machine, set to free play to boot, at the STL Autoshow. Guess where it was; the Ford booth of course. The show has gone downhill, but I told my wife we just made our money back.

I sold my ToM last fall, I really miss it and regret I sold it. I expect to have another mint blinged out one in ~2 years or less that will not leave.

I'd say JM is the king of flow.

TOM flows well, TOTAN does to some degree but there's little to shoot at from the left flipper to maintain flow.

As for gameplay, it does kinda suck. The "vocal minority" are those who value gameplay above all else, and it's telling they have kept a near blanket ban on all non-WCS94 Popadiuk from tournaments. ToM has exploitable rules (left orbit), ToTAN is a trainwreck, although good for beginners. CV appears nice at first, until you realize you're only ever shooting half the playfield-- left orbit, ramp (and lock targets), and Ringmaster. SWep1... Williams' last game ever, sunset of the pinball titan, sells for just a smidgen over 2K, and it ain't all because of Jar Jar.

I'm not a random Popadiuk hater. I owned WCS94 for 14 years, Ep1 for 13, ToTAN for 3 and CV for 8. After playing those for so long, and comparing them to games like TZ and MM and STTNG (then), and Metallica, WOZ and STLE (now), they're (not) amazingly boring, but kinda boring... Blingy but boring.

The term "gameplay" is subjective. When you start bringing Tournament logic into things, almost ANY great game can "suck". There are a good chunk of players who don't even remotely think about the things Tournament players think about in terms of playing the game or deriving enjoyment from the game.

Obviously opinions on games are very subjective and everyone has different tastes - but let's be objective...you may have bored of ToM, TOTAN, and CV...but those games do have excellence beyond the superficial, and most would be happy to play/own them. I don't even remotely like TZ - I'd rather play any other game....but I respect what it brings to the table and understand why people like it.

SWEp1 does blow though...I'm with you there lol

I think it comes down to software on his games. I really enjoy wcs. Cv is not as fun but still decent. Tom leaves me completely flat. Love the art. Love the music. Love the theme. The software lets me down. Totan falls short in lots of depts for me. Opinions are like credit cards...

Software and rules were always the big concern about the new games. We knew they'd look beautiful, play smooth, but could possibly be extremely shallow, especially by 2015 pinball standards.

Anytime it was brought up with John he was pretty dismissive about it, that he had new talent doing it. But learning that Star Trek ended up having 3 man years of software on it, and John's programmer doesn't even work for him anymore and hasn't for the past year. Combine that with how long it took Keith/JJP to get WOZ polished, you're left with realizing that these games weren't going to be too compelling once you were over the shine.

TOTAN is overrated, TOM is fun but I could see how it could get old after so many plays. Not a big sports fan, but one of the few sports I did play as a kid was soccer, and I have vivid memories of playing WSC94 in an arcade somewhere in carol stream off of thorndale just east of 53. I actually wouldn't mind finding a nice WCS94 at some point even though my wife thinks she wants a TOM because she plays good on it. There's also something about hearing that announcer voice, and then "GOOOALLL!" with the star animation.

Also recognize KEF on WOZ did all the new ops system, I/O code for new video and almost all new hardware drivers, - KEF built a pinball platform THEN coded WoZ. Stern games have a team of coders with specialists in dots, sound, gameplay etc. How is Jpop going to find another KEF, Lyman or Ben Heck - plus all the specialists? It ain't going to happen soon, even if he had 100 games put together and done - there isn't any code!!

Ben is extremely talented in all sorts of ways but he's no Lyman or Keith. Those guys are in a league of their own. And they are very different in how they attack rules.

And none of them are available to Jpop

I can't argue with that. I didn't own them for the workout up and down my steps.