A programmer with 1-2 years experience seems a bit light for a premium game unless there is a senior mentor already there.

Can Antonio Ortuno - the QPC System designer, if I am correct - work on the software as well? (after finishing Nemo's code, of course !)

I just want to quote Ben Heck for a moment here from an AMH thread:

This is someone who can say he's built and shipped a fully functional, fully coded boutique pinball. He speaks from direct experience, and not just the coding, the whole package. You'd be a fool to ignore him. (And if you're going to TPF there will be 3 AMH there, go check them out in person!)

And this is the heart of the matter.

This whole notion of skipping the flipping whitewood? It means that there's no working game to test for working on code. Of course that would require actually having a programmer.

I say this not to keep my pile-on fest going, but because some people have expressed to me this notion that "we're so close, they're almost done!" Like if there's some way to buy just a little more time this project will be there.

The fact of the matter is, even if John finally shows a game that at least has working flippers, that's just the start of the journey. No matter how pretty the art (and you know I love the art side of things) it's like a supermodel without a brain. And mean her skull has been scooped clean, not that she's a little ditzy.

It's like paying for a high class call girl, and they send you a Real Doll instead. (That might be the worst analogy I've ever made.)

So fine, keep the hardware if it's what makes sense. I'm not any kind of electrical engineer, I won't pretend I could make the best call. I couldn't care less if it's not FAST, that's only important because Aaron was someone willing to walk into the pit of snakes.

Find a programmer who is willing to work on it, for whatever (if anything) John will/can pay. Even if somehow that guy is full time, and willing to see the project through to the end, understand that end is still a journey away.

Aurich, your referencing MG?

If folks wanted a refund on MG now, can they get one?

Well I'm talking about anything, RAZA is in a similar boat, but yes, MG should be the first priority.

And no, people can't get refunds as far as I know.

hardware and software are hard...

I look at Heighway, how they build a game first virtually, and develop the software and rules early on, and then let it mature over the build process.

Look at the art updates Heighway went through... AT THE END, and this was all while they made changes to their game for reliability (turbo charger toy was 86'd, pop-up bumpers replaced by spinning discs). Stuff that only came about from ... you know... PLAYING THE GAME.

I was also pleased to see that Heighway's chief software guy won the IFPA state championships for Florida - a real pinball player. THAT is the experience we need for programmers, look at the value that Lyman and Keefer bring because they are top rated players and know what works and what doesn't.

Having just written the above, I don't see how this can possibly end well for us.

There appear to be some available options if wants them.

you are absolutely correct. I mentioned this to John when I met with him. I asked him who was going to be programming the games, and I specifically pointed out that it needed to be someone who was a player themselves. You can't just shove any random programmer into the role and think that you are going to get a game that is fun. Myman and Keefer are so good at what they do because they instinctively know what works and what doesn't.

Honestly, the buyers in this case will likely be lucky to end up with the real doll. Doesn't bring me joy to state that, but that is how far up the brown creek this project appears...

that's what's known as designing in parallel, it's amazing how quickly a project can make progress when it's not linear (IE let me design a cabinet from the ground up including brackets and hinges, then put some art on it, then revise it 6 times, then sketch some things on a foam playfield of how I think it will work).

I don't want to speak for john, but since I've never heard of anyone talking about a video showing flippers running, how do we know if the shots are even good (or work?). Even the WOOLY project with testing shots virtually on a computer (which translated to the real world fairly good) needed some things tweaked. Until a playfield is flipping (and heavily tested) you have no idea if a layout is going to work. Rolling a ball with your hand does not replicate real pinball.

That was a point I made earlier in the thread and this idea speaks directly to what Aurich is talking about when referencing the Ben Heck quote a few entries up. John seems to think that as long as he uses his trusty yard stick to lay out the shots then everything will work out perfectly. What happens to the timeline when he gets one of these things flipping and the shot geometry is all wrong and the flow he thought he was designing into the playfield just isn't there? At that point, any tweaking that might have been a minor adjustment on a flipping whitewood may well require a major design overhaul that could encompass changes to every single part of the table. There is good reason that nearly every successful table starts out as a whitewood.

I believe the games have all existed as white woods. Just don't know how much play they got or can possibly get when no one sees them.

It just strikes me as strange that John will show an entire foamcore game to buyers, complete with art mind you, but no one has every seen a flipping whitewood.

StevenP and I were talking, and I promise I'm not trying to throw you under the bus Steve, but he seemed to be under the impression that John had this notion of skipping the whitewood, and just, TADA, having a finished game. Like that was going to be a big timesaver.

Now maybe Steve was mistaken, really trying to not get him in trouble here, but no buyer has seen a flipping whitewood that I'm aware of, Steve is as close as anyone to John and doesn't think there was one. It would suck if after all this someone get the game flipping and the shots don't even feel right.

That just seems crazy to even type. Someone tell me that's not what's going on. Apparently something was flipping at one point, there's a buyer report back in this thread about it.

Also, I feel like writing buyer instead of owner, you guys so far have been paying money to buy, but don't actually own shit.

I thought PDXMonkey and other actual shop visitors saw one? If not then JPOP doesn't actually know how to design games. You need a whitewood to refine.

(my applause is for the Heighway stuff, not your last sentence...though I tend to agree with that as well)

John has shown a lot of minutia in his posts on the AIW blog and there was never a whitewood shown. Just artwork and then, BAM...a foam core model. Maybe the whitewood is the thing he keeps to himself or maybe he will do that next. Seems sorta like the foam core would be a useless step at that point. Then again, I think building a whole fucking pinball machine, including the cabinet, out of foam core is kinda weird

I have the exact same feeling. Regarding the last sentence...

... Game is not over yet. It may well be a difficult game, but you are not yet at Post/Predator stage. There is more money involved (which here can be a good thing) and there are no license issues.

I sincerely, deeply, strongly wish it does not end like Predator.

I agree with all these posts, for the last several months. But does it seem as if we're all in agreement but if John does not see these posts or agree with them it's all just mental masterbation.

Perhaps someone can summarize a bullet point one or two page paper and have Ice or someone that John responds to or maybe post it on his FB page or spam it on his blog so that John can respond in some manner.

Points should include: whitewood, programming, manufacturing, tech support, money left, timeframe, money owed to suppliers, refunds for non delivery, communication etc...

Edit:

John should know or be aware that this is not his own personal time he is noodling away, it's been years literally. He collected more money than Kevin had and he owes his owners answers.

John should have done most of this groundwork before asking for funds as funds/deposits implies delivery of goods.

I suggest a new recruitment plan along the lines of...

Knock, knock
who's there
Jpop
Jpop who.......

......can I interest you in a programming gig, or a pre-order, or both

good luck with the real plans guys.

You know, that would make sense really (it's what he knows) if that was true. But he's really only paying lip service to it. The days of Williams/Bally? They made whitewoods! They tested them. They had full time programmers. They had project managers. It wasn't one dude doing everything. You'd be in much better shape if it really was the case that he was following the old school playbooks.

I just can't believe in a million years that much of how John is doing things now is "Williams/Bally way".

Brian is a damn good guy too. Heighway also lent him a prototype to work with in his home. This is something I'm sure JPop would not do even if he *had* a prototype.

Oh, goodness. That is awesome to hear for Full Throttle, sad about the jpop situation.

I can recall a David Thiel talk about Star Trek, about how he was sent a prototype to work on sounds, and "getting a feel" for the game was a big part of his inspiration.

Speaking of which, who is doing the sound work on these games?

Sound effects on Alien is going to be of great importance.

Rob Berry, according to the blog.

https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/?s=music

Does Rob Berry know this?

Crazier to read

Has no one actually seen/flipped a whitewood?

This is what I get for going off topic. I even lost track of what thread I was in!

I was actually asking who is doing the sound design for Alien.

I would imagine he does....

https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/rob-lion/

And they payed people for the work they did

As much as he says he follows the bally/williams way, he isnt. He said in an interview that at bally/williams, they made whitewoods and the ones that flipped the best then were sent for a theme and art package.

He also lives in Spain right?.. That makes it tough for him.. Esp if john isn't going to ship him a game.

That can't be entirely true for every game. For example, there is no way WCS94 started off as a purely generic whitewood. It was clearly designed with soccer in mind from the outset.

that's from nearly 2 years ago. Who's to say he still works there, or when he did how much got done?

Take away the spinning soccer ball and goal mech, and it could be any themed pinball
image-22[1].jpg

Even if you don't have the theme first - you want a whitewood to flip first to makes sure it PLAYS well before you make/order plastics, parts, toys, ramps, etc.

And he wanted to open a pinball school, you know, to teach students how it's done.

I thought it was a creative way to get people to work on games as "learning exercises." You gotta figure maybe 1 in 5 guys really messes up a playfield install. But the "class fee" would surely cover that!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

Up next, Jpop will teach you how to whitewash a fence!

Hey John,
If you're reading this, I want you to know something:
I love your previous games.
The new titles you're working on look outstanding. So long as the rules are decent, I'd probably buy one.
IF I could get one cash-and-carry.
With the nearly non-existent communication style you've shown your supporters, you have single-handedly destroyed all trust anyone will ever have in you. I expect that NOBODY will be sending you more money until you have a fully operational machine.
If you are currently unable to complete at least Magic Girl without another injection of cash, you really ought to come clean. Dragging this on and on is completely unfair for those who have funded your way of life for the past 3-4 years.
It's WAY overdue to man-up, come clean with the state that everything is at, and either fold, or accept help (yes, giving up some control) in order to get this done.
One of your buyers referred to himself recently as an "idiot" for sending you money.
I hope that's not lost on you.
There is NOTHING less respectful you can do than ignore these buyers. Even admitting that things didn't go as planned is a much better solution. At the very least, there's some respect in that.

I would love the opportunity to pay for one of these one day and then cart it home from my local distributor. I hope you can make this work.

I posted something before, about why John should keep his customers happy. It's most likely self evident. But just think, John probably has as customers his biggest supporters, the guys that went out on a limb for him and his ideas. They didn't do it for the actual pinball machine as much as for who was making the pinball machines. Also, only John's credibility was what enabled him to charge $17,000 for a pin. It's like people will spend $400K for a Rolls Royce but not for a Lexus. (but I digress)

Anyway, it's self evident that John may be alienating his real and only fans. You heard stories about how people in the industry think of him or why he'll never work for JJP or Stern.

But just think if John is pissing off his own true fans.

Anyway, I had seen an article about why you should keep your customers happy, but now I lost that. but here is something that highlights why I think John is burning his few bridges by his inability to communicate or to produce a product.

I am not saying that the product is not important first and foremost, but the way customers feel and what they are telling other people is almost as important. John has a captive audience for now, but future sales will be effected if he alienates his customers.

----------

The probability of selling to an existing customer is 60 – 70%. The probability of selling to a new prospect is 5-20% – Marketing Metrics.

For every customer complaint there are 26 other unhappy customers who have remained silent –Lee Resource.

96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back – 1Financial Training services.

A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people. – White House Office of Consumer Affairs.

70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated – McKinsey

Customers who rate you 5 on a scale from 1 to 5 are six times more likely to buy from you again, compared to ‘only’ giving you a score of 4.8. – TeleFaction data research.

It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience – “Understanding Customers” by Ruby Newell-Legner.

Socializing with your customers can build retention if you do it correctly. The key is to dial down the corporate presence and give your customers a voice and a forum to connect with other customers, and then let them build the traffic. As you build your Facebook fans and twitter followers, stay engaged with them and establish “alerts” to keep you constantly informed and able to immediately comment on whatever is being said (both good and bad) about your company.

Communication is king in business.

I've had one owner tell me that he is so fed up with the whole ordeal that he doesn't even want the pin anymore, that John took all the fun out of the project with his antics.

Can someone link me to the RAZA and AIW dev blogs. Never knew they got opened up and now that they are I cant find any of the old links. TIA

This sounds like me. I need a Tums each time I open this thread. If I could get a refund, I'd be out in a second.

I wonder what percentage of RAZA owners would request a refund if they could get one?

And no, I'm not going to start a stupid poll.

Hey Rob, you should start a poll!

what-if-my-vote-decides-the-fate-of-this-post.jpg