I thought The Hobbit was the best pin at the show. Even better than WOZ right next to it.

Having said that, If MG was priced like other JJP games with the same level of code and workmanship, I told Bill to put me down for one!

Let me throw this out there. A little thought experiment.

Let's say you are, Bill, the head of the rescue effort. You know pre-orderers have been burned and are upset and uncertain. You know they have questions and you know they want to at least see, if not play the game. You also know the internet is watching closely. You have two or three weeks to prepare. You know the reveal is critical, and if not pulled off successfully, it could jeopardize the whole project.

What would you do to prepare for and execute the reveal of Magic Girl?

Also note three weeks ago came was way further behind.

No ramps
No subway
No scoop
Etc

This thread is sad as hell to read . . .

Makes sense to the buyers. Even if JJP multiple delays are now the norm, this would give a real / tangible partner in. Assuming I am interested in TH, this is something I would consider... Unsure if the deal is interesting for JJP then:

Can they afford to cannibilize present TH sales - or Pat game #3 - to secure a future title? I may be wrong, but MG would compete more with JJP sales than with Stern LE models.
Would the current MG achievements worth $1M+? (JPop preorders would have to be considered as deposits). JJP knows how much it costed them to develop WoZ and TH - they would have to really look at MG current state and asses how advanced it is. It may be more advanced than the prototype shown at expo, but I doubt it is worth $1M.

While technically you are correct that Zidware has likely collected $1m for all its games, only $200k of that was MG money (say, 20-ish games at $10k, as most were not fully paid for). Gary Stern has always been clear that it costs at least $1M to develop a game before it ever gets to manufacturing, so all things considered JPop's expenditures weren't entirely out of line, he just over-committed (to put it mildly).

I like this.... JFlop....... I used to think JPoop was a good descriptive word for John and his magic shit show but now I think JFlop is perfect.

Well done John, you have done it. You're nothing more than a gigantic FLOP........ JFLOP style

QSS

Clearly all along this was going to be a demo and not some "launch"... Simply something to actually get the game out of the shadows to gauge real interest and not simply based on an aura. That interest includes the 'bad' because you have to be realistic in 'are people willing to stick it out' based on where the project is. This was never going to be a near complete game... Anyone with those expectations were just delusional. The state of the game should be of zero suprise given what people have been disclosing since the pintasia thing broke. People need to get over the last 3+ years of what they THINK should have been accomplished and simply face what has been revealed.

Finishing off the game under secrecy for months for some polished reveal just isnt in the cards. They needed something nOW to release the built up pressure. What we have here is the aborted attempt at the game so far.

I'd favor honesty over production value at this point. Any production to try to fluff up this demo into a big reveal would just be more lies.

What they could have done tho is try to do some great photos to show what is unique or attractive about the game... To counter the horrible game lighting

Just got home from the show and have a few comments on the game.

The artwork is the best I've ever seen in pinball from the playfield to the cabinet. The lighting looked ok in person with the lights on and doesn't look so trashy as it looks in the photos.

As for the way the game plays. There were several issues some of which were somewhat small issues that had big negative results. Let's go through these one by one.

The first is that the right side subway. This piece requires the ball to travel backwards - from the front of the playfield to the back. Due to this, the gravity of the game worked against the subway. The subway itself needs to be reworked to be taller underneath in the back so it can have a steeper grade. In actual game design, this wouldn't be a huge issue. But we were working with what we had at the show. One of the only ways to work around this was to flatten the pitch of the game to help the ball roll back better. It was a necessary evil that resulted in the game looking like it was around a 5 degree pitch. Contrary to comments in this thread by people across the country, it wasn't because we were too stupid to twist the leg levelers.

Next issue, the software has not yet implemented a ball search. In normal development, this isn't a big deal. Adding a couple timers and having a switch resetting timer is a relatively simple task to complete and could be done in a few hours of work. But regardless, it wasn't done yet. The result of this was that every time the ball got stuck (and that was usually on the subway described above), the playfield had to be lifted. That required not putting the glass on and required having someone babysit the game for it to be played. Contrary to comments by people that weren't even present, this had nothing to do with Bills unwillingness to spend $300 on a sheet of invisiglass.

The next issue is that the game magnets were not yet added or implemented. Unlike the above two issues that were relatively simple to fix given more time, this is a big deal and requires some game physical modification as well as a ton of software work to properly pulse them. As a developer, I don't even believe some of the goals of some of the magnets are feasible (such as holding balls in lock for extended time periods without another mechanical mech to hold them). Unfortunately, the impact of this made the game look quite featureless. I know I explained to several folks at the show how many of the magnets will work describing the missing features.

Another issue was the playfield protector. The protector was fastened down in the front but in a way that caused a small air bubble near the flippers. Had the protector been simply free floating, it would have been ok. This is another very simple fix that was not something that could be done at the show. But this resulted in the ball losing its power at the flipper area. This made the flippers seem weak and it threw off the timing of the ramp shot. To those at the show paying attention, I would not expect this to be a long term concern and it should be obvious that it would be relatively easy to fix.

There were a lot of other software problems most of which would be relatively simple to sort out (coming from perspective of someone that understands the code). Unfortunately, there was no time with the machine to make changes prior to unveiling at the show.

That's my take on the current state of the MG prototype that was at show.

Hey Zombieyeti,who is "literally passing away the last few days?"..

But anyway,a bit of glue,a few magnets and some lost ball software!

Let's do this,it is going to work!

Let's be happy it is in it's current state people,3 steps backwarts and it would have been impossible to build?

I agree with most of the opinions expressed by others who were at the show and actually saw the game, so no need to state them again. Only thing I will add is that it was almost impossible to take a good picture of the game no matter what you did, because of the lighting there was no angle you could take a pic from without glare, believe me I tried.

What was really interesting to me was the conversation I had with a Pinsider who was standing by the machine, turns out he is one of the 19 fully paid Magic Girl owners, so theoretically, the game sitting there was 1/19th his. What was truly amazing to me was that most of the people posting in this thread are a hell of lot more upset and whiny than he is, he wasn't ranting, he just wanted to see if anything good could be made out of this very bad situation, he was trying to focus on the positive, that there was at least something there to build on. Not sure I would be able to have that attitude, but it was certainly a refreshing change from torches and pitchfork crowd here.

Is that really amazing though, or just par for the course?

It takes a certain constitution to preorder any game... a Jpop game no less.

The pitch forks aren't even sharp, this crowd is fairly well behaved considering.

This is not directed at anyone in particular. As pinheads we have every right to have an opinion about the situation. We were, are, and will be marketed this pin.

I have no problem with opinion, but having read every post in this thread for the last few weeks since things really went south, I've been drawn to the inevitable conclusion that there is a contingent on here that truly is mean spirited and enjoy raining on others parades, obviously the minority, but a very vocal one that there is really no pleasing or pacifying.

I think they started well by getting the ramps done and installed. Just the visual of the ramps makes it look 1000x more complete than anything seen before.

After that I would have spent time making a concise video of what is there and what is not. Do a detailed video pointing out all the "wow" stuff that is not ready to be implemented. I would not have rushed it to a show half way across the country when it was obviously not near functioning.

I understand the necessity of a reveal, just not why they did it like they did it.

Welcome to the internet... where everyone is a critic AND and expert.

If this was the only thread one went to on PS I agree it looks like RGP's negative days. But it's to be expected as everybody here lost a boatload of money. I say let 'em vent... they earned it.

What bugs me is that people post the EXACT same message each day with slightly different wording... as if repeating it makes it more convincing somehow.

It doesn't.

I think we need an informal pact that everybody says their piece maybe TWICE and then has to come up with a new angle. Changing a few words doesn't count

Yes there was an impressive effort put in the last few weeks to take the game from the pieces it was in to something that could shoot at all. But here's the disconnect and why the response has been less than positive:

-The game had it's "reveal" in December
-We were told it was "near complete" 7 months ago
-John lied about the state of it for years
-Visitors to the shop and insiders would repeatedly tell us John had a lot more done and the games were almost ready for production
-There was STILL secrecy kept until literally the morning of the show when the pinball news article broke
-There is a lot of bad blood that John has created through his actions and pissing away everyone's money
-Now that we've seen the game, it is clear where it is exactly, and that road has a lot to go, so there is still blow back and bad feelings for the lies about everything up to this point.

We saw plenty of pictures and videos of Magic Girl from the NW show. But no one took pictures from under the cabinet. Certainly there must have been some cool toys down there that Jpop was working on in the past 4 years

My take:
Everyone involved seriously loves pinball and contributed to create very beautiful partially complete pins.
John Popadiuk is human filth.

Some of the most vocal and opinionated constant complainers in here lost no money and never preordered. As someone that does have money in the game, I feel it would be nice for those folks to ease up and move along.

So have we heard from the licensee/new 'owner' if this this is still a go?

My impression was that they needed to get this to the show in order to hopefully drum up enough business both by strong arm tactic of those already potted in with Jpop and also hopefully enough new orders to make this even remotely feasible from a business standpoint. One of the guys on the inside mentioned 150 orders to even be feasible???

I am guessing based on how far the game was from even beta proto that little new business came in and imagine many of those that were hopeful there would be enough content for them to personally justify paying double for an 8k game have come to reality that the risks are still very high with this venture and they are still getting a higher production game for way more money. I have not seen a single post from anyone saying that they are in, back in, or newely in.

Is there supposed to be some sort of official announcement IF this is still proceeding or are the new 'owners' of the IP still just waiting things out to see how many will sign away legal rights to sue Jpop/zidware before making any final decision?

Yea, on this forum that's impossible to enforce though. I assume thats why there is a private facebook group..

Fair enough.

Have you considered the block function?

Mine caught on fire last night.

You need to realize that even those of us that did not have money in on this project likely have lost some elsewhere on a similar project, have friends that are 20k deep on this PoSaduick, and also understand that millions of dollars literally robbed out from the hard core collectors is BAD for the hobby. This is $ that could have more positively gone towards projects that are actually happening and moving things forward in pinball. This really is something that impacts the entire hobby for many of us. It impacts the entire trajectory of the hobby and while it may not have the personal sting of losing 20k to Jpop and then being strong armed into paying even more for a hope of getting something, it still stings for what this has done to all of us on a community and hobby of collectors level (including some good friends on a personal level which adds to this).

LOL! I take it I made the cut?

You should not plan to hear this. There is a lot to investigate on costs to complete the game and manufacture it. Now that the game is revealed, the proper folks can analyze this and a decision of feasibility can be made with data. Rushing to Pinside to make an announcement is probably not at the top of that list.

No one is being strong armed. There was no sales pressure or any tactics at all at the show where the game was presented. But I will say this. As an owner I'm not going to sue. So there you go. You can now stop saying you haven't heard from anyone (and hopefully move on since you have no skin in this game). Owners have a right to be vocal and up-in-arms. By standers should be just that - bystanders.

but are you in? Are you going to pay more money now in order to invest into this new company after seeing and playing what you did at the show and the other factors you have to analyze for yourself? Have you assessed your risks/rewards in this current situation and decided to pony up more cash for the game/Pintasia attempting to make the game?

That is what I meant by 'in'. Not suing is very different from putting down more money on something you have already paid for in full.

I really do not need to realize that. Calling jpop names is also childish.

Jpoop, jflop, PoSaduick maybe your kids can laugh about it at the recess and lunch at school but otherwise it's just childish. I realize the guy pissed away everyone's money including mine. But he didn't "rob" anyone as that shows intent. Knowing what I know, he simply made super ridiculous business decisions and dug himself into an awful hole and the money is gone. He didn't pay himself a fortune, he is not wealthy now, he didn't make thousands of profit dollars from pintasia, the money is simply gone. Anyone that sues him will get a cut of what he has left - zilch. And it doesn't matter whether you're convinced of this or not. You have nothing in the game.

No one is paying more money now. This isn't even an option being offered. My opinion is that jpop, the guy I paid money to, is basically done. He is out of money and cannot make games. The money I paid him is gone. It's not in tangible assets I can claim and sell. It's not in his bank account. It's gone.

So the choices I have are either to sue and get nothing or work with the new guys that have the business sense to make a game and possibly get some credit of what I already paid, if possible.

Short of that, I'll take magic girl for what it is when it's available. I'll either want it or not. I think what I saw at the show demonstrated some very nice potential for a game I will want when done.

You may have missed it Mark, but Jpop was attempting to collect $$$ for new orders a month ago when he was already in negotiations with Pintasia to sell all IP rights. This shows clear intent to steal peoples money. He knew the project was dead for him but was trying to get more money.

Maybe it should be? There are only 19 Magic Girl buyers... what if each kicked in for BOM, and prototypes were made comparable to what was shown at the show this weekend. Each gets a rare prototype, basically like having your own Wizard Blocks, and the book is closed on Magic Girl. It seems like the road to "finishing" the game fully is just too long and expensive.

Then focus on RAZA, where there are 124 owners and some money still available from unpaid deposits, and it addresses the issue of asking them to buy a game they didn't want if they don't want to wait 4 years.

I thought the contract was to sign away all rights to sue anyone and a commitment for more money to be paid?

I didn't miss it. Being in negotiations doesn't mean you're out of business. It means you're in negotiations. Those negotiations could have fallen through in which case jpop would need more preorders in order to have funds to try to move forward. From the perspective of someone that has no clue on how much money it really takes to make the game or stay in business or one that is in emotional denial of how dire his circumstances are, that doesn't show ill intent or fraud - just extremely poor common and business sense.

More money paid would be when/if the game was available. Not now. So "being in" now simply means I won't sue (as there's nothing to get) and I'll be open to buying a game when produced with some, none, or all my money paid (to another party mind you) being applied.

It should be understood that Pintasia is not taking over the Zidware company. In my opinion, he has no obligation to pay Jpop's debts - why would he? Jpop owes that money but he'll just bankruptcy it away

the ONLY reason I think he should be liable for debts is that he swooped in to negotiate a deal for the license before any forced liquidation.

Any reason why he did not wait for bankruptcy liquidation and attempt for a clean buy at that time? The current plan seems unnecessarily messy due to the timing/structure with Jpop and pending litigation against him and zidware.

Yea unfortunately based on what I personally saw in the game at the show, the BOM is well over $10k maybe over $15k as the game sits. Not because the BOM is worth it but because every part is custom. Even the flipper mechs were custom with Z stamped logos. I believe some of the parts in the game are the only parts in the world as in they made just 1 of them.

Before something like you suggest can be done, someone needs to go through the game and replace the unnecessary custom parts with common off the shelf parts. A good portion of the mechs can be reworked that way. But if you do all that you need a mechanical engineer and are basically finishing up the mechanical aspects of the game. So I think that's where it will probably head. Mind you this is my opinion (be it somewhat educated after seeing the game as others that saw it can attest) and not based on any inside information.

Did you ever think maybe some people think YOU'RE bad for the hobby and Pinside, you keep making the same speeches over and over, some people might be tired of reading Pinside because of people like you, THAT'S also bad for the hobby.......

sure. If I need to be a vocal voice of reason to keep people from tossing more money at a bad project that has already stole a million, then you can make the personal attacks against me if it makes you feel better.

I see in your logic

stealing 1 million $ = being critical of a project that has stolen 1 million

It's not a personal attack, it's food for thought. You have made your point, OVER & OVER & OVER, take a minute to think about how people come on Pinside to read about the hobby and have to sift through your repetitious rantings OVER & OVER & OVER and how THAT might be bad for the hobby....

This is between Pintasia and Zidware and it is not my place to speak for them.

And while I have no idea if this is actually how it worked, from a purely logical perspective, if I buy an IP from a company, I own that IP. Whether that company was heathy or about to go into bankruptcy is not relevant at that point. When I go to Walmart to buy something I don't investigate whether or not the company that supplied the inventory was paid. I simply buy what they have. A company that is in trouble can sell assets to pay its debts. Me buying that IP gives some cash for that company to pay its debts. Whether it did this with the money or continued to mismanage that money and pissed it away is also not relevant (to me as a buyer of the IP). But once I own the IP, I own it. I don't need to pay anyone that was hired by the party that sold it to me anything.

Now as far as the Pintasia / Zidware deal, unfortunately Pintasia has no obligations to people that paid Zidware money. The fact that he is offering those folks something at all is literally to be helpful in my opinion.

As for suing jpop, he is out of money and has no assets to claim. I think the only people that want to sue anyone on Raza could probably sue cointaker for their $750 back. Cointaker has assets and if you bought through them and paid them, the fact that they lost the money trusting Zidware is not your concern. Sure it is a crappy thing to do (and I am not doing this), but I suspect you would win a judgement against cointaker in this case and cointaker probably has assets to pay you.

I agree. I think everybody has their bullet points memorized by now.

There was an argument to be made that making the general public aware of John's mishandling this past year saved some new blood from getting screwed along with everyone else.

But at this time John is no longer taking new deposits, and Pintasia isn't asking for money either.

I suspect everyone who already has money in is fully aware of the state of things, is making their own decisions, so I would agree the need for some repeated Public Notice is moot.

John Popadiuk has assets. There is money left. He is still soliciting victims as we speak. He got paid for the licensing deal. He knows he is not making the games and is still taking in money from unsuspecting marks. IMHO that is fraud , but ymmv . He is trying to smoke screen victims and the community to avoid consequences. The very best option for this victim is to cut through the BS speculation with a lawsuit. Thats the only clear path to recovery of anything.

Continuing to say John has no money does not make it true. Continuing over and over to say John is a nice guy does not help anyone. Saying John is just a doofus might be more than speculation, he may have people here actually discouraging others from filing suit.

The path forward is clear.

Jpop and Kevin love when their threads turn into buyers vrs naysayers as opposed to buyers vrs them.

OT: Really? Hobbit was MEH in my opinion, I had more fun playing KISS... Jmho

This must be the absolute low point in style I've ever seen in any thread. Really, this is disgusting.

I'm voluntarily ejecting myself from this thread!

I'd be more accepting that he "tried & failed" if there wasn't the long list of documented lies and coverups.

The same lies and coverups that led us to an underwhelming showing at the expo this weekend, because the deception had run so deep and people had no idea the state of the game.

From everything I've heard recently, John still isn't accepting that he really screwed up. There's been nothing said, and no effort made to clear the air, starting with opening his books (which he said he would do in letter #1).

Anyhow, it is what it is. Just don't be surprised that things are so toxic.

Hey...dude...building a KISS pinball with MY money,in the time you should build MY f@cking pinball,that is disgusting!

Thanks Mark, for taking the time to share your review of the game and your wisdom on the games construction and BOM.
I may be wrong, but I dont think I saw posted that EVERYTHING is custom. Just to produce 1-12 prototype Flipper assemblies,
......something simple we have many stock solutions....is a huge capital drain. Knowing now, that almost everything is custom,
explains a great deal as to where funds went.
Your perspective is admirable, and I hope as others read, really creates only a wait and see approach, which it would appear
now might be best.

I am certain though, that the drama will continue.