I own 3 Stern games. I wouldn't trade a single one of them, even, for any flavor of WOZ. Limited, Ruby, whatever. In my eyes it hasn't surpassed Stern. It's a cool game, and different, and innovative. But as far as "THE GAME" goes? Not for me.

I wish JJP the best, truly. Do I want Alien to outsell anything anyone else has ever done? Sure! But it's a one-off for me. I'm not a Heighway employee, and my wish is for all of pinball to do well, as a fan and collector.

I haven't played The Hobbit since Expo. But I wouldn't trade any of my Sterns for it either. And I don't plan on buying one, too expensive.

Here's where I do get partisan: Heighway is making widebody games too. With an LCD screen. And full RGB lighting (more than Hobbit has if I understand things correctly). And they're nearly a good couple grand less than JJP is charging. I just can't justify the price Jack wants to charge. I feel the same way about TBL, and I think it's going to be awesome. But even though I could afford it if I wanted I just refuse to pay these $8k+ prices.

So for me if that's what it take to make the game you want? Hey, hope someone else is buying. Won't be me. I spent a little north of $7k for my METLE, and I hope to make that my all time highest expensive game.

I really like WOZ and TH as well. I believe JJP will be good for Stern because it will challenge them to get away from the same type of designs and be innovative themselves. Stern isn't going away and I'm sure we'll see bigger and better things come our way. LOTR and SM are easily top 10 pins for me and I like MET and AC/DC too. Great for pinball all around.

This may have been posted already, but wanted to share it. I just stumbled on it on YouTube.

WOZ and TH are certainly very beautiful pinball machines with deep rule sets. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I sure like them

so I'm guessing Pats game will not be exposed until the new year and not at expo. Makes sense now that Hobbit is later than planned

Well, I own WOZ and wouldn't trade it for any game out there. In my eyes, no other game is close to it. That being said, I'm not paying 8 or 9 k for it. I'm in with Hobbit at $7.5 shipped, that's the limit de me. I think, sadly, that means I'm out on Lawlors game.
By the way...the Heighway cabinet design still looks cheap as shit to me. Maybe it's the art on FT, I dunno, but it looks that way to me. They have to fix that somehow.

Looking at WOZ and FT they are in a totally different leagues in terms of licence and production values, so the difference in price can be justified for me. I hope Alien closes this gap.

Having owned a WOZ (I liked it, but had the 5 volt board set/problem, so off it went)...
Played the Hobbit at Pintastic for the first time and have to say, I was really impressed. Great shot layout, fun to play and was really stunning to look at it. I'd really like to get one, time will tell.

So what exactly is the delay at this point?

I would only compare Heighway's LE's to WOZ or The Hobbit and Full Throttle LE is $8k plus shipping...I paid less then that for my WOZ ECLE and will do the same for my Hobbit SE / LE. Full Throttle looks cool but I can't see spending anywhere near $8k on it with what you get with WOZ and TH for the same price or less. I cannot justify the price Heighway is charging for their games and it's mainly due to a lack of mechanical features on the playfield for me and not being a fan of the backbox design. I hope Alien is different and has more interactive features on the playfield. That games LE model is $8k as well. I wish Heighway the best and hope they sell a ton of games.

I do agree that these prices are out of control. $7500 is my limit so if Pat's game comes out at $8,500 I won't buy one new. JJP seems to be raising the cost of their games to their previous games maximum pre-order price. That mean's that $8500 or $9k for Pat's game is possible. At some point there needs to be a limit.

Unfair comparison.
FT is US $6,150 for you. As compared to $8k for TH. (standards).

Then if you buy Aliens as a kit, it will be 60% of $6,300.
Half of JJP#3...

My MET Pro was less then the FT standard but I wouldn't compare the two games. I'm paying $7500 for my Hobbit SE / LE which is less then what Heighway is charging for their LE's. At the standard level both WOZ and TH offer more then Heighway's LE's in my opinion. Again just my opinion. Full Throttle looks very cool but for the asking price I wish it had more mechanical features on it that the ball can interact with such as drop targets, mini playfields, pop ups, magnets, etc.

If you are not a vendor why are you worried about this? That dosent seem like anyones business but Jacks.

The answer to that depends on who you ask. If you ask me, I see the cascading changes brought about by the design changes. It seem that people here think that the first thing to do after changing a custom part is to buy 1000 of them. They also seem to think the lead time on that new part is two weeks.

It takes more time than you think. As a thought experiment, stare at a WOZ and try to calculate all the changes needed to move the Munchkin playfield a few inches.

Of course others will answer that the sky is falling on Jacks head. They seem to be the same people that told me that the sky was falling on Jacks head a couple years ago. The same ones that said to get a refund on WOZ while you still could. The same ones that post in this thread saying that Jack isn't wearing any clothes. They have their opinion, and I have mine. That has nothing to do with the delay, but is interesting behavior.

According to previous posts on another thread, this is the D&B report from June 9th, when the PAYDEX was rated "Poor"...

image.jpg

The PAYDEX subsequently declined on June 14th...

image.jpg

And then again on June 27th...

image.jpg

Source: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jack-guarnieri-nw-pinball-talking-points

Thanks for posting that, I hadn't seen it. Really looking forward to seeing what Pat's game is!

I look at it as not being overly ambitious for their first game. Walk before you run... so to speak. Sounds like from the Maine show that FT is being much more welcomed as a solid package than when originally launched.

These price comparisons will always be tough given the Europe vs US builds.. so you're just trading places on who is taking it on the shipping/currency penalties. Plus, heighway will have the modular design which also obfuscates the comparison on a one on one.

Modularity is a double edged sword.

I definitely see people wanting to swap playfields and software every time they want to play a different game and keep playfields stored in a protective way when not in the machine around the house. Sounds totally plausible. Go downstairs to get a quick game of X in only to find you left Y installed.

Damn... Have to open door, take out the glass, lift the playfield, disconnect everything, ensure you lift it out of the cabinet without damaging the cabinet or the playfield, place it down in a way that wont damage anything, unbox the new playfield, lift it up and gently put it in the new cabinet, connect everything up, double check connections, install new software, reconfigure game for settings you want, lower playfield, install glass, close coin door, take other playfield and repackage it in some type of hard case to prevent damage, and finally, Coin Up.

Damn.. wife is calling. There goes that quick game.

Thank you for the information. I had not had access to it, and there are too many threads for me to read them all!

From an operators point of view, I think it's brilliant. If I can get an entire new game for $3K ish - $4k ish, it make's it a lot more bearable than $10K plus ...

Shit... I WAY underpriced my Fish Tales then....

That is once you've filled the place with $7000 machines. Then you can rotate them out at 3-4k (maybe less as they improve). In the long term it might be cheaper, but the up front cost is higher than other options. You also don't have the residual value of the game because you could only sell the playfield you pulled, not a full game. I'm not sure it is more bearable.

Compare that to a current manufacturer of Pro games that may cost about 4500, but the minimum you will get for selling it is 3k on a bad title after making your money off of it. And that is on a bad title. Lots of them will sell for 4k after being routed for a while.

I am sitting on the fence with the hobbit to go next to my woz . i am also looking for pinball circus. i refuse to pay in full for a game i don't know when will ship! when its ready/in stock ill buy one.

If you've given JJP $7500 for TH and you can't get a straight answer when it's going to ship or the reason for the delays, i think it's your business.

Only Stern Pro's, which is what I operate now (mostly). It appears to be far cheaper in the long run than any of the other options.

Which would offset the cost of a new playfield (and game!). Basically like buying/selling a full game. Except cheaper.

And to steer it back on topic ... Hobbit looks fun! Too expensive to route (for me).

I can see the real power of the swappable playfields for route operators with multiple locations. Bring a new playfield to Location 1 in your CAR, swap it, bring that playfield to Location 2, etc, etc... would allow you to freshen games on location a lot more often because it is simple. That alone should increase coin drop.

But then that even translates well for home owners, swapping games becomes a lot easier, transporting easier, stairs going to basements are not nightmares, etc.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Is this post even serious? Let's see, JJP is holding cash from how many people for a pin that has yet to be made? And you say that it's nobody's concern whether JJP is paying vendors???

There are approximately 10,400 Pin2k machines built. How many "just playfields" do you see for sale? I think i've seen one in 5 years. That was swappable and no one went that route especially ops. They had a RFM and a SWEP1 right next to each other. It's great in theory but some ops have a hard time windexing a playfield with their skillset and you want them to swap a playfield and load software?

I'm not seeing it.

Duly noted.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a Heighway vs JJP discussion. My bad for even going there, let's let this thread be about Hobbit.

And pins were not 9k back then either. It makes much more economic sense today. Plus a few years ago there were lots of swep1 playfields for sale. Not so much anymore.

I have a mint RFM kit for sale right now in fact!

I think Pinball Circus will be a fun novelty - but not even remotely in the same league as The Hobbit. I would only be interested if I had a lot of room to spare...but I don't.

God, I wish I could disagree with that statement.

Sadly true.

I'm pretty sure everyone who JJP was holding cash for got their WOZ. I did. Serious question... what has changed to where there is a concern for TH ? If anything, I would think people feel less concerned with TH because of WOZ shipping to everyone.

I'm glad the prepay model is gone though.

The concern is that JJPs business model was entirely based on prepay. Without funds coming in on prepays for game #3, Jack is forced into a different model and has to find other investors or slowly build up the money to get Hobbit production started. I have faith that he can pull it off - but I'm sure it hasn't been easy.

Or she can help to make the swap go quicker and get a 2 player game in!

**clears throat**

Please folks...back on topic....or at least something close to topic.

It ain't gone yet....

I will hold off my celebration until that's confirmed...

itsalive.jpg

Ps- someone make a Young Frankenstein Pin!

Is it mint because nobody bothered to do the swap before?

Now represents more years on the clock.

When you startup a new company... you take a big pile of money and start spending it to get the company up and running... and keep spending that money until you sell enough product, consistently, to start paying the bills itself. But you buy time by having this big pile of money at the start. How long you can go before the money runs out you call your 'runway'. The longer they operate without a steady stream of games shipping... the greater risk of the runway running out.

This is a good read on burn rate and runway for anyone that wants more info beyond what Flynnibus posted. Burn Rate is startup 101.

http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2014/09/28/what-is-the-right-burn-rate-at-a-startup-company/

You are wildly misreading my comment.

OK folks...let's do a reset here. This is a Hobbit update thread, and the moderator team has discussed the need to reign this back on track.
It's gone sideways pretty badly. If you want to discuss the prepay concept, start a new thread. If you want to discuss JJP finances, start a new thread. If you want to discuss anything not directly related to Hobbit updates...this is not the place.

Let's keep this thread on topic. People don't want to open a thread, see a hundred new posts, and zero relevant info. So...like the moderator team has done in the past with other threads to try to get them under control, off topic posters are subject to ejects moving forward.

And just as a preventative mention...if you don't agree with that, please open a thread in the moderator feedback forum. We don't want to see a ton of posts in this thread with comments on us re-railing the thread

Thank you....really! Way past due.

Current code update was done at pintastic. I'm not sure if this was there before but I'll share what I noticed...

The button on the lock down bar is lit before first ball launch. If pressed it changes the skill shot. Certain targets drop and other fall, I had a hard time with hitting the upper skill shot could be me could need stronger spring(most likely me).
After ball launch the there's a ring on the left center of the display. As you hit targets the ring starts to build its glow from bottom to top. Once completely glowing under the ring will be a given achievement. Points, completed task for u, make a troll relite for pop up, extra ball?, ect... Once the ring is fully lit and the achievement is shown the button lights up during play and u have to hit it to recieve the gift. Same thing continues ring starts empty, hit more targets, build ring, button lights, hit to collect... It doesn't take much to build the ring so I find myself hitting that button often and trying not to lose the ball in play.. I really enjoyed that feature.. When into multiball the post comes up in the left outlane. Button held increases strength of the shot to right side targets im guessing to kill smaug..

Sounds to me like this pin will ultimately be phenomenal...

Lots of stuff to do and modes to complete. Given my lackluster skill level, I doubt I'll ever see half of what TH will have to offer!

I like the planned implementation of the lock down bar button - sounds very cool and adds a nice dimension.

Can't wait for TH to start shipping!

Hobbit_Screen.JPG

And continuing my poor video and photo skills: This is the screen.

As Lorenzo said, you can see it written half way down the left pressing the ring button changes the skillshot. But don't change it too much or it seems to disable the skill shot

So let's run around the circle as I understand it so far...

Top Left: The lock status for the main multiball that I found. Has the 4 letters for lock which are the rollovers in the center of the playfield.

Top Middle: The mode start progress. There are two ways to get the right ramp lit for mode start. One is to collect the characters listed (there are playfield shots for them), or to shoot down the three sets of drop targets.

Top Middle part 2: The top middle was also used to display mode information of the running mode. This information was also displayed on the book in the playfield. It would tell you just which shots you were needing at the time. Very cool.

Top Right: The map. I didn't play enough to fully get this, but you are traveling on the map. I saw the stuff where you opened up Erebor, and that is the next spot on the map. I'm not sure how big it is, or how far it goes.

Right Middle: Ball info and such.

Right Bottom: Collecting all the dwarves. As you make a playfield shot, the corresponding dwarf lights up. It seems that this qualifies modes (I think). So getting someone qualifies the things that can now be available, but I'm a little sketchy on that point. I saw several times where something like "Bilbo modes available" or some such text and fanfare.

Bottom Middle: The scores, who is up... The normal info.

Bottom Left: The hurryups that are available. There were corresponding lights on the inlanes for these, so I am assuming it is for others to see the info.

Left Middle: Ring button information.

Center of screen: This changed depending on what was happening. In this picture it is showing the mode listing. Again they are darkened until available or collected. I'm not sure the difference between tried and finished... I just didn't get that far.

As I recall there were others besides the top middle that changed information depending on the context.

I may have misunderstood some of these parts, so if you have a better understanding of any of them, please, let us know.

Didn't someone start a new Hobbit update thread and everyone just ignored it and kept trolling here?

So now that the game is further along and people have been playing it more what's the consensus on the upper flipper? Some people expressed concern that there wasn't really a purpose for it, has that been changed in software so it's useful in general gameplay now?