(Topic ID: 77386)

Hobbit Update

By B9

6 years ago

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#167 6 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

Why? It's a different world. Online advertising and ordering, shipping readily available to anywhere with tracking, etc. It's not like the days when you walk into a local department/hardware store to buy most of your needs, and ordering from the Sears catalog was the big mail order venture.
Like all businesses these days, price competition is erasing geographical boundaries. You want restraint of trade and reduced competition to make a comeback? Really? Higher prices for all!

the territories was to PREVENT people from under cutting each other and just selling on price alone. Channel management is not about getting customers the lowest prices - it's about ensuring everyone can stay healthy. Margin to the channel, margin to the end-user.

You hear everyone moaning about Walmart putting local businesses out of business? Very similar... the 'other' guy comes in with lesser offerings, but changes customer expectation of pricing... under cuts the incumbent who can no longer operate at the service levels they used to due to the pricing pressures. The guy either cuts his services or gets out because there isn't enough margin left in the business.

Customer gets lower prices... but due to lower margins.. there is less money in the channel to do value added services and less people interested in selling things.

"race to the bottom"

11 months later
#3487 5 years ago
Quoted from dutchi:

Jersey Jack is great no doubt.
But i think the Hobbit playfield is just lacking lots of toys and no upper or under playfield or other cool stuff...

Two words... Drop Targets

1 week later
#3630 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I'm beginning to think that JJP isn't releasing the photo shoot pics they took a couple weeks ago until after January 1st because they want to sell as many SEs as possible first. That's the only model they've been parading around. And why not? It gets them an extra $500 per machine for pretty much nothing else but an attract mode. You'll see the LE come out and make the rounds next week since they'll have no reason to tout the SE anymore...and then you'll see why I think it looks much better than the SE!

of course lead with your highest margin product... same as Stern leading with the LE.

3 months later
#5239 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Here are my thoughts on TH after playing it at the Michigan Pinball Expo. I was only able to get a couple games in on it.
Like many have already said the game looks great visually and the updated playfield artwork really pops. The game at MPE had the playfield protector on it. Personally I didn't like the look of the protector on the game which was mainly due to the way it looked around areas like the rollovers, lanes, and in between switches. The side artwork with the RAD-CALS looked nice but I personally found them too glossy. Also, if I did still have my pre-order I think I would prefer the LE art package due to there being unique side artwork on both sides of the cabinet and Smaug now being represented on the playfield thanks to the updated artwork.
As for gameplay of TH I was pleasantly surprised. I'm not sure what the pitch was set to on the game at MPE but I didn't find the game slow at all. The interaction from Smaug was impressive even though he doesn't interact with the ball directly. The mouth movement of Smaug seemed perfectly timed with the toys speech. The book LCD is very impressive and is already much more interactive then the crystal ball toy in WOZ. At one point during the game I saw a countdown timer on the LCD toy which is tied directly to a mode. The games code was just updated the night before and now has the "Ring Button" feature (action button) at least partially implemented. I think that Keith is going to come with some really nice ideas for the Ring Button.
The game is incomplete rules wise which is expected at this point. Gary from Abel Electronics (a JJP distrubutor) told me that the games code is about 50% complete at this point. The remaining 50% of the code must be the games main modes as I didn't see many in the game (other then Smaug MB) during the time that I played. The lower left area of the games LCD shows the status of hurry-ups for the games 4 pop up toys. I hope that the hurry ups for each pop up toy leads to a mode similar to how the witch hurry ups in WOZ lead to Fireball Frenzy. I'm also interested to see if the game will have modes similar to those in LOTR that are tied to events in the films and require a set number of shots to be completed. I did notice that the upper right area of the LCD shows your location in Middle Earth during Bilbo's quest. If the game does have story modes (hopefully) I wonder if they will be tired directly to your location on the Middle Earth map?
I didn't get a chance to hear Jack speak at the fireside chat but was able to talk to Butch from JJP. It's always a pleasure to talk to him as he such a nice and humble person. I asked Butch if JJP had found a Gandalf sound a like yet (someone from JJP at Expo said he should be telling the player what to do) and it sounds like that is still in progress. He did say that David Thiel will be receiving a Hobbit soon to work on the games sound and something about David implementing Two Steps From Hell music into the game. I was surprised at this comment as the games sound is already impressive. Just wait until David get's his hands on the game!
A part of me wishes that I kept my preorder now after seeing the game. One of my best friends now has my spot and refuses to sell it back to me after also playing the game, haha. The game does have less on it then WOZ in my opinion which is where I have a hard time justifying $7500+ for one. However, if the sounds, animations and rules are top notch for all 30+ modes I can see that adding a lot of value to the game and making up for there being less on the playfield compared to WOZ. While I still wish that Smaug interacted with the ball I think the games sound work from David, animations from JP and rules from Keith and Ted will make players forget about that and provide a fun pinball experience.

Why is 50% complete to be expected at this point? The project was supposed to be done last year was it not? I don't get why the tweaks made since its first public flipping would mean losing all that was some before

#5289 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

For the people bagging on the devs for taking a long time, keep in mind that they not only have to write pinball software, they also have to design and implement all the video components as well.
I'd say that increases the difficulty by a factor of ten at least. Getting it in 18 months when WMS took a full year to do a much more simplistic DMD game seems pretty reasonable to me.

Your missing that they are missing not made up deadlines... But their own estimates

#5533 4 years ago

I can't put my finger on these 'send me your email' posts..

Does it remind me more of this..

or this..

#5534 4 years ago
Quoted from sj1000:

Even if childish bloggers call me an idiot or a troll.

Blog.. you keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means...

#5551 4 years ago
Quoted from PinPatch:

Once starting the Hobbit, production should be a lot quicker.

exactly what they said about game #2 because they had all that experience from WoZ... and how has that worked out for you?

2 months later
#7131 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

As a business owner myself, if I had that much work waiting and all those dollars to collect, I'd be hiring every able body I could.
How many line workers work currently? Anyone have an idea of a ballpark number?

The labor is cheap and is paid incrementally... the cost is all the parts you need to buy well up front. Something JJP has been struggling with.

Somehow I don't think lack of qualified manual labor is behind JJP's low output...

#7138 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

I don't think Jack said that cost is the issue it's getting the parts from the vendors.

Well yeah, people tend to stop giving you terms and shipping stuff on credit when you stop paying vendors or allow disputes to carry on w/o payment. We are well past any 'lead time' issues.. WOZ games have been being built for ages now, yet they STILL can't ramp up any kind of volume... in a period they still have struggled to find cash flows. They are a factory - to get cash you gotta ship stuff.. yet they still can't do that. I doubt JJP is going 'lets stretch these orders out to ensure some slow trickle of cashflow over the next 12m'. They already have the next game queued up.. they need to crank up the factory output to convert all that R&D to INCOME.

#7146 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I think you are really underestimating the lead time issues. As a practical sense, just think about making a tiny change to a product you are preparing to build. In a small change there is a lot of work caused by that. And there have been huge changes in The Hobbit. Wherever they were in the schedule was tossed out to be able to build a better game. Yes, it's hard to deal with customers when you make that level of change, but I think the end result will be worth it.

So what's the excuse for failing to being able to ramp up woz production then? The man just said he has a sales forecast that will outpaces his production capacity by far... And has a huge backlog of games he already owes...

The hobbit changes don't justify letting any of that fester

#7148 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I don't think Jack is sharing production numbers of WOZ. After he got through the preorders, things have been a bit silent as far as how many leave the factory. So outside of JJP nobody has the information to say if anything in WOZ production is festering or not. At least I dot know the numbers or projections of where the current rate of production lands them for Hobbit. If you have them, could you share them with us? How many people are not getting a WOZ they ordered? Because it sounded to me like they are still filling orders for operators. And although they don't have WOZ stock on hand, it seems that the orders are getting filled in a reasonable timeframe.

The session mentioned 700-800 more wozs he expected to build in two years.. In addition to the hobbits he already owes... Plus whatever happens with #3. If the man has sales demand to predict such great numbers yet to be sold of his 'old' game... Why would he not be converting that demand into invoices now? He is either full of it... Or can't build enough games to fulfill demand.

He doesn't mention time to deliver because they don't have a good answer under their control.

#7156 4 years ago
Quoted from Hitch9:

Stern did the same thing with Lord of the Rings back around 2003-2007. They built many of them for years, because demand was so high. It seemed like they built a batch, and then more orders came through. I bought a LOTR back in 2005, two years after production started. WOZ really didn't start production until May 2013. We are just after the two year mark now. If it's successful Stern keeps pumping them out. They did it until they created the LOTRLE model. I don't see any difference with WOZ. You aren't going to build 700-800 and then have them sit in a warehouse. This is bad business. You will produce them as demand comes through. You can bet that JJP will keep producing them as the orders come through. This is no different than many factories.
The only difference is Stern was building other models as well, in between. JJP is just starting to get to that point.

Uhh its night and day different. The difference.... Stern had other shipping products creating revenue. Stern did go back and revisit titles in demand to FILL that demand... JJP has demand they can't convert into revenue because they can't build enough games. They are lacking revenue generation and suffering in cash flow because they don't have enough product to ship. 40 days (who asked if he meant cal days vs biz days?) is horrible for something that is in production right now!

The longer every game takes to build, the more it costs.

#7161 4 years ago
Quoted from JerseyJack:

We are not suffering cash flow issues.

You are going to try to convince us shipping a handful of games a week is enough revenue to support your entire org? Or

We are not rubes jack. You may have reserves but cash flow is in vs out. You can micro-manage out to stretch it... But you need to ship. You boast about demand... But are mum on moving units.

#7169 4 years ago
Quoted from Hitch9:

Stern is also 'mum' on how many units they pump out as well. Why would you think JJP would give you that kind of information.

Stern has proven their capacity and output... Gary doesn't have to give us numbers... They are a known commodity. Jack on the other hand keeps making boasts about what they WILL do... notice the difference??? One is promises, one is delivery. Stern isn't staring down the barrel with months of delays holding their production back with little to fill the gap. Stern isn't burdened with 6++ months of backordered product that must be built with little to no new revenue for that work... work whose cost that has still has to be burdened.

Stern and JJP are in very different boats... JJP has a ton of baggage, and hasn't demonstrated the ability to get out from under it. That's the point being highlighted... Just like with WOZ... JJP has all these backorders to fill. JJP promised #2 wouldn't suffer the same fate... I'm asking 'wheres the beef' when it comes to fixing the manufacturing bottleneck... so those hobbits CAN get out the door.

#7171 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

It sure looks like they have nailed #1 on the list.
Time will tell on the rest.

You forgot - 'and do so in a sustainable manner'. Anything can be solved if you just throw time and money at it.. the problem is neither of those are free or abundant. So a company must achieve their goals and do so in a manner that will be sustainable so they can continue to do so... else they will just go dark regardless of the best product or intentions.

You also left out 'prove credible with the market' -- so people will take risks and buy high value items from them.

Buyers need confidence in the product and the company. The concern is given the long run rate with limited return... is the sustainability there? The creditor reports hurt that story as does the continued problems of lack of manufacturing output. Jack made lots of promises after WoZ got going about how #2 would be different. Do you feel #2 has been different?

I think the market is willing to pay their prices... I think they have the staff to make leading games. But they gotta demonstrate the ability to produce and do so in a cadence that will allow them to survive.

#7197 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Revenue recognition.

That's only an accounting twist... It's not like the money is held back from the company... They just can't book it as revenue... But since they are private... It only matters when jack shops the company to investors. The money could be spent prior. The question is have they spent it prior... Or been able to keep it in reserve.

I doubt pinball sales.com and invisiglass sales are enough to keep them cash positive... So they gotta get those woz games pumping out the door...

#7217 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Again just my opinion. Full Throttle looks very cool but for the asking price I wish it had more mechanical features on it that the ball can interact with such as drop targets, mini playfields, pop ups, magnets, etc.

I look at it as not being overly ambitious for their first game. Walk before you run... so to speak. Sounds like from the Maine show that FT is being much more welcomed as a solid package than when originally launched.

These price comparisons will always be tough given the Europe vs US builds.. so you're just trading places on who is taking it on the shipping/currency penalties. Plus, heighway will have the modular design which also obfuscates the comparison on a one on one.

#7240 4 years ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

Serious question... what has changed to where there is a concern for TH ? If anything, I would think people feel less concerned with TH because of WOZ shipping to everyone.

Now represents more years on the clock.

When you startup a new company... you take a big pile of money and start spending it to get the company up and running... and keep spending that money until you sell enough product, consistently, to start paying the bills itself. But you buy time by having this big pile of money at the start. How long you can go before the money runs out you call your 'runway'. The longer they operate without a steady stream of games shipping... the greater risk of the runway running out.

3 weeks later
#7466 4 years ago
Quoted from Damonator:

Maybe they should stay linked....ispy JPop In line for the Hobbit!

Did you know the irony is that guy's name is Jo(h)n too?? But no JPop

#7467 4 years ago
Quoted from GameJunkie:

Anyone attend the the Jersey Jack seminar yesterday at ReplayFX and care to share any new details or info?

They went through a lot of justification of how much they changed the game since Expo and the level of cost and effort that took.

The real nice part was doing side-by-side of the art changes from the Expo game to the current game. They explained that with the delay they had access to IP that was released after their initial designs, so they opt'd to incorporate that newly available content as they opened the design back up.

The side by side art comparisons really show how much brighter the new art is (light blues and brighter reds and greens vs the older greys, darker greens, etc).

They talked a bit about flexibility (or lack of) when dealing with IP holders.. and Keith talked a bit about how its different now vs when they did LOTR when Peter Jackson/Wingnut was not as established. Now they got very little info ahead of the release.

In the Q&A, someone finally addressed the elephant in the room about production.. Jack's answer was basically there are parts coming in all the time... some things are constrained in vacations, lack of urgency, etc.. but he said

- he hopes Hobbit is in production by end of Sept
- he hopes to announce Lawlor's game before the end of the year (it was kind of eluded to Expo.. but can't remember if he said outright).

I get the impression it was 'get Hobbit pumping out' before announcing Lawlor's game. He said its very far along (forget the words he used.. but gave the impression it was closer to a playable game than just a design).

Jack did not give any specifics about addressing their production output. He mentioned a 30 day time to ship currently... said he can keep building Woz til 2017. Was not precise in his answer in how he could/would/wouldn't be able to manage 1-3 games in production at the same time.. but inferred he'd want to be selling all three simultaneously.

On the showfloor... the games display is visually stunning... 'multi-media smorgasbord' I said. The screen looks incredibly sharper and more vivid than WoZ... maybe just the content, but it really pops.

The lighting added to the pop-up figures makes ALL the difference (flickering light from below). They look incredible. The PF art is nice and inviting. The armor is nice. The game is still pretty confusing on what you are supposed to be doing... but 3ball multiball and hitting monster hurry-ups can be had all day with easy for the 'walk up and play' angle.

This particular prototype had a problem with the left VUK.. but looked to just be a typical mechanical VUK issue.

The basic yellow flippers look lost where the rest of the game is so detailed.

#7478 4 years ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

I understand not being precise about when production will start, but Sept. is only several weeks away

By my math.. end of Sept is 7-8 weeks away. We call that almost 2 months.. I don't really think of 2 months as 'several weeks' but I guess that's a personal interpretation.

Quoted from luckymoey:

To be producing any real volume of games within the next few months the factory should already be gearing up.

I wouldn't be counting on any 'real volume' of games. Sounds like they are going to continue at similar volumes as they are now. He was even asked about production volume and he didn't address the point. So I would expect the same slow trickle we have now, but he will be mixing in WoZ and TH as needed it seems for the foreseeable future.

The whole production topic was not even part of Jack's speech, it only came up in Q&A. I noticed they didn't even call the visuals/art they were showing 'the final version' which was a little interesting. Not once in the presentation did they say 'the final...' as if things were still up in the air... or maybe they've just been so conditioned to later changes they don't call anything final

Jack wasn't clear on 'shipping' vs 'building' either in his Sept comment. I don't recall if the question was 'when will hobbit be shipping' or was it 'when will hobbit be finished?'. Either way, no biggie... the key takeaway is they aren't close enough to nail down dates with any precision... that's what anyone needs to know. Beyond that, its just the waiting game.

#7490 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I guess we'll find out how much stock is in the "Lawlor won't allow them to do pre-orders on his game" rumor and how much that can be danced around. Maybe they start taking pre-orders for it when it is showable, with promised production X months later?

He did say adamently that they weren't going to do pre-orders, but did say something to the effect of taking DEPOSITS. At what point would deposits come into play wasn't really discussed. So deposits... secure your order, but don't fund the company, etc kind of thinking.

#7511 4 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

I almost feel like I am being trolled.
Why on EARTH would you believe that JJP's "spring of 2016" release for Pat's game is accurate.
Quintuple face palm

Launched doesn't mean finished or shipping... Just announced.

The big thing here is jack taking in another group of investors. It must be getting crowded at the head of the table...

1 week later
#7590 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Seems to me that it was just the "cool" thing to do back then. We were all mostly on RGP at the time (Pinside was a complete non-factor in January 2011), and there was nothing but bashing everything that was released. "Stern Sucks" was a very popular mantra on RGP.

I think the distaste was warranted. What really helped TRON was the mod scene - it brought elements to what is otherwise a really borderline fugly game. Go play a bare stock Pro after not seeing one for so long and you go EWWW. The game was dark, lacked cool PF art, another goofy lenticular translite, had recycled features like the drop bank (which we had just had with Avatar as well). The factory light tubes were a neat add, but weren't central enough to the game to overcome the other bits. As people played the game more and more, the lure for the gameplay started to develop.. but it was still kind of an ugly duckling. Then when they brought out the other translites, we got the arcade mod, eventually eli got his ramp kit working, the whole UV LED angle came along... now Tron really starts to become a complete desirable package.

Iron Man was a good earner from the start... but the collectors saw it as a barebones game (which it was). When Stern is heading in a bad direction, it was more of the same... skimping on parts, skimping on art... the game just looked cheaper than what people were accustomed to. Again, as people got to work with the game more some started to appreciate elements of the game play... but its still an acquired taste IMO.

#7597 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I want to thank you for an honest assessment of Tron from somebody who is clearly a fan. It's nice to see some insightful opinion without the emotional drama.

Its a grail theme for me... but when the game came out and we played it at York I had zero interest in acquiring the game. Dark, generic shots, rehashed toy, no real fun pin callouts from the cast, etc. It wasn't until much later (in the last 2 years or so) that the game has really grown on me... and mainly because of Pros that have been decked out. I have one on loan right now that its pretty much the only game I play right now It's a real keeper that is impressive when mod'd out tastefully.

But it takes a lot to get there..
Arcade Mod
Flynn Sign
Scoop LED
Pitbits plastics
Pinbits pop covers + UV lights
Eli Ramp Kit
Alt Translite

Orange Laser Cut Armor
Lit lightcycles and recognizer

Contrast that with more recent games like ST Pro... which are pretty awesome stock. But Tron will hate on you, and that can turn people off... but so can AC/DC. Both games lure you with the 'you almost had it...' objective/payouts.

WOZ had such a catalog of various things to do.. I never got that 'you almost got there..' draw that keeps you wanting to try try again. The Hobbit with its loaded catelog of things to do could suffer the same. I can't say we knew enough at replay to try to get any 'progression' in the game. It was mainly play hurry ups and multiball. Time will tell...

But I do find IM overrated.. and I'm pretty shocked to see another run of it honestly. Is stern killing the golden goose?

#7601 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

So...the music sucks, though. Right?

Love the music when Sea of Simulation starts....

1 week later
#7842 4 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Jack has numerous times mocked pinside, it doesn't bother me and nor am I offended by it. I don't think it's a smart business decision though.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell... beyond that are the people are the ones who fuel the drama-engine.

#7862 4 years ago
Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

I get that they're shipping Full Throttle but Is anyone buying Full Throttle?

Most people had a lot of positive to say about the title at ReplayFX and I think it impressed people more than they thought...

But as much as we all harp for original themes... and say themes don't make/break a game... I think the theme here and lack of attachment for most people is hurting this game.. along with the idea of a new company, new ideas, etc.

#7904 4 years ago
Quoted from jams77:

Why do people say that he is passionate about pinball? He saw a growing market and jumped in to make cash. That is all I see. He wasn't a member here until he had something to sell. What gives people this idea? There is a lady that has bagged my groceries for over 20 years. I said "wow you've been here so long now you must love it. Wish I could find people that stay like you." She replied she hated it but it was close to her house and gave her money to go shopping for herself every two weeks. The only thing I have seen from him personally is he is passionate about talking. A 2 min. phone call is like 20+ mins.

You need to do some research... History is not bound by pinside accounts...

#8064 4 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

I keep hearing that GoT will beat TH to market, but what is the unofficial guess on the GoT release? Are we anticipating September or October?

Stern typically has a newer game at Expo... so if its GoT or something else... who knows.. but I expect a new Stern for Expo dates, and it better not be Kiss

At this rate no way Hobbit is at volume by that date.. best hope seems to be aiming for production starting by then.

#8079 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Then whatever happened with the money. Let's just stick with the obvious fact: you don't take on investment capital if you're flush.

Not necessarily. In young companies especially, taking more investors can be about growth. You don't have the capital reserves to do the expansion you think you need. But the reason I don't think that applies at jjp- is because there appears to be no pitched plan in how they will address their biggest issue... Production output. When asked how they would change when there were multiple games to build (new opportunities!) jack basically side stepped the question. The man who loves to boast... Is dead quiet on production rates and concurrency. That's all I need to see.

Quoted from Aurich:

I just don't see given all that, and the historical realities of JJP, and the fact that they're still playing catchup on WOZ (40 I think I heard?) ...

The 40 number was in reference to a days to ship quote from jack. Basically that they had a backlog of orders.. Vs having stock on hand

#8083 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

That's fine if you have a market to rapidly expand into. There is no huge market for pinball machines that cost $8000+, and likely never will be. Even if they can solve their production problems.

There already is another company sharing that market... That jjp would not take market share from if they are so constrained...

And let's not forget... The market leader said there wasn't a market for a game like woz before jjp...

#8107 4 years ago
Quoted from fatality83:

I think it's safe to say the Hobbit will not be any closer to production in October as it is now as long as there is no second manufacturing line, and WOZ's keep getting sold and shipped in front of people that pre ordered.

No one is waiting on WOZ preorders anymore.

#8147 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

And not just the print cost. Going much past 2 hours meant a third can had to be shipped to hold more than the standard 6 reels (2 hours)

If we were talking random joe director... Ok... But these guys have virtually whatever they want based on their rep... Increased distribution costs are just dollars expected to be made back from the blockbuster they were promised. The bloated marketing budgets these days should dwarf extra stock/distribution.

#8218 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Show me the balance sheet. Show me the cash flow statements. And the only one who as the exact forecast numbers for demand is JJP. So many experts on these boards....

When you see smoke pouring out of the house... do you wait for the flame to burn your hand before you are convinced there is a fire somewhere?

You are making up artificial standards as the only thing that matters so you can conveniently ignore everything else. You quickly seem to forget the LAST round of investment.. what did that actually add.. why they needed a SECOND round as well? There is a reason they won't tell you exactly what the new money will add... and you can keep ignoring realities like

- they supposedly have all this demand.. but won't ramp up production to match it
- they have documented credit issues
- we have cited vendor payment issues
- we have a company that has operated for years with very few income streams
- we have products that have been years late - this does not come for free!!

All of these things are undeniable examples of things that put pressure on financials and are signs of smoke in terms of sustainability. If there were no financial strains, most of the above wouldn't happen, and the founder would not have had to take on investors like he so adamently believed he wouldn't. The reason to change your mind is because you NEED them. If he had all the financial resources he needed w/o them.. he wouldn't NEED investors.

Sometimes this forum sounds like the 'Earth is flat society' -- they just don't want to believe what is in front of them.

#8288 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

The only info JJP gave about Pat's game was that it wasn't going to be a widebody, no license needed, and no promises that it would be shown at expo. Knowing this, I doubt that it will be shown before the Hobbit starts shipping.

he has said more. He has boasted about how complete it is, and made inferences that it would launch very quickly.. and not suffer the same kind of long delays between reveal and shipment the other games have. But this is all about the staging Jack has done... hes not saying specifics because he doesn't want to get burned again.. but he can't help but promote just how great 'the next thing is..'

At replay he made it sound that that Pat's reveal *could* happen at expo... but inferred if Hobbit were late it might not be the right time to do so. Since Hobbit is sliding more and more past Sept and Oct... I'd wager they won't launch Pat's game at Expo.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pat is trying to deliver a turn-key game to JJP.. instead of delivering a DESIGN that then must be filled out, engineered, programmed, etc. The way Jack talks... I think its going to be more of that kind of relationship and that would support why he is so confident when he talks about the game's current state and how quickly it will happen after hobbit.

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