(Topic ID: 77386)

Hobbit Update

By B9

7 years ago

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  • 743 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by GravitaR
  • Topic is favorited by 96 Pinsiders


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#65 7 years ago
Quoted from BeefStewert:

Maybe the troll pop-up targets only rise for a short period

There's a lowepg pop-up target!?!?!?! Sweet!

great looking update- love the video.

#134 7 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

I'd much rather see higher scoring in the millions. I thought WOZ had low scoring for an old-time nastalgia feeling?

I m more concerned with the proposed flippers for TH....


#143 7 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

You could put a fan in the dragon's mouth, silk paper and LEDs that would trigger at certain times and that would look like real flames.

silk-flame-simulated-fire-effect... 9 KB

That's actually pretty cool. It sounded cheesy when described- but it looks pretty slick.

2 weeks later
#194 7 years ago
Quoted from Hogbog:

because I'm one of the biggest Tolkien fans around, and rules are discussed among everyone on the team.

very cool post.

I cant wait to see this game!

3 weeks later
#254 7 years ago


Post edited by robin : No politics please!

3 weeks later
#310 7 years ago
Quoted from Squizz:

Hmm I still do not see why there are 4 flippers on the table?
The bottom 2 seem to be able to shoot every shot as it stands.
Or am I missing something.

Looking at it - if there ARE pop-ups (trolls) in the middle of the PF- perhaps those top flippers WILL be necessary for hitting shots that would be otherwise obstructed?

#363 7 years ago
Quoted from ek77:

The game is due in 9 months they had a unfinished white wood on there last update. Jack started building the first WOZ games april 2013 hear we are a year later still waiting on the full run.Be happy if you see your game in the first half of 2015

I'm certainly no JJP apologist, but I suspect the WoZ timeline is not going to be extremely useful for gaging their ability to ship out TH.

Presumably most of the recent delay have not been a result of insufficient capacity, but supply chain problems (cabinets) and design problems/flaws (LED boards/powers supply/etc) and JJP pumping out standard machines for new receivables.

One can only imagine THESE things will be ironed out by TH production since I'd assume much of the same products and technology are carrying forward....

If I had to bet, I'd say JJP squeaks out the absolute MINIMUM they are contractually bound to deliver in December. It'd also be surprising if the software is anywhere near complete on these- but it'll be functional no doubt.

Then, in Q1 2015 I think we'll see real production ramping-up... maybe not ever hitting 15/day, but maybe 50/week? They may very well be still producing Woz's in parallel, so perhaps they will make 15 games/day combined- who knows....

I'm incredibly interested in TH.... mostly why I've followed JJP in the first place. I would still NEVER pre-order one (nor would i preorder a Stern machine), but I cant wait to play one of these when available.

#367 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Somebody has taken over Lowepg's account! Too much common sense here


I snuck in a few clues so you'd know it was me:
"design flaw"
"standard WoZ line jumping"

#378 7 years ago
Quoted from retired_user_101:

i just don't know enough about this pin to buy.
somebody, please, post a 3d render, a color drawing. something/please... then take my money.
otherwise... it is about to get spent elsewhere.

What's the rush?

1 week later
#460 7 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I love how people don't complain about Stern not actually giving us updates.


Know why they don't?

#502 7 years ago
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:

Jack ... mentioned he was being deliberately vague on this.?

That seems out of character for him.....

#531 7 years ago
Quoted from S37VEN:

Wish Jack would have released the full resolution CAD layout.

This feels a bit like seeing all your presents before they get wrapped for Xmas to me....

I'm really looking forward to seeing/playing this machine, but I'm afraid every minutia of the game will be poured over and analyzed to death before the game is ever shipped.

I know they HAD to dribble out data on WoZ to keep the investors sane, but I really hope they STOP doing this soon.... maybe I'm in the minority (it would be the first time )

#547 7 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Yep, it's where we've been ever since the Williams shut down and that's not gonna change. Thank goodness for JJP and others.

I agree...kinda...

Stern wont necessarily have to change until JJP starts shipping in a reasonable and reliable manner (aka no -ish's)

Also, I'm afraid Stern may still feel they can ship out the "same ol, same ol" when the quasi-competition is selling machines for $8K and they can still ship a machine at $5K.

#612 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I love zaccaria for number of reasons.
I find it ironic, I got a thumbs down for a dr.pepper reference from someone named peppers.

Not surprising.

Shasta is the drink of ALL true pinball wizards.

Thought everyone knew that....

#660 7 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

working, reliable, fully coded?
a permanent fix is being developed....

Hmmmm, then I think you need to wait to crow about it working reliably until it moves from "being worked on" to "being delivered" lol...

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Reliable: Also JJP didn't make owners wait 6+ months for a code update to complete the game.

Good point..... but...
Stern could have delivered Metallica with complete code if they would have shipped it 3 years after payment as well

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Jack and JJP developed, built, shipped and have now supported one of the most complex pins the pinball industry has ever seen, and, and (breathlessly) and...

You're slipping. Please review the terms of your marketing agreement with JJP- you forgot to use the word "wide-body" in your post.... SHAME!

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

seeing 3 WOZ's with 5 people deep all Saturday afternoon waiting to play it at MPE....

Those were all people that paid for their machines 3 years ago- they were just happy to see one and play it a few times

I wont believe a word jack "says" about TH. For every grandiose claim he's made in the past, there's an equally inaccurate untruth that could be shown as an example.... Some will ignore those (the prepayers/patient-waiters mostly) but for many Seeing will be Believing.

The videos were GREAT updates.
Him talking about how awesome playing the whitewood is- is not so great.

The only Hobbit update Im looknig forward to is:

'In Stock, ready for shipment"

#677 7 years ago

most on the topic are...

#701 7 years ago
Quoted from John_in_NC:

No imitations PLEASE, if nothing, use out-take audio, no fakes!

Agreed. With 7+ hours of movie- you'd think there's be plenty to lift audio from.

It's too bad though that some of these guys are so greedy. I know very few people want to "work for free", but you'd think some of these actors are the right age/generation that they'd think it would be "cool" to be immortalized in a pinball machine....

Or at least, trade the work for a custom pinball machine (or 3) for their efforts.

#714 7 years ago
Quoted from karl:

Morgan would be fine too though

Nothin to do with the theme- but Id love this callout on the "adult setting"

Hell... Id go for a whole Pulp Fiction pin...


#723 7 years ago

So, if JJP has licensed the "material" - is it assumed they can use any existing outtakes for audio and/or video or does that ALL have to be approved per use?

#785 7 years ago
Quoted from PappyBoyington:

But wait here is more:
» YouTube video

Must.... Pan.... Camera..... More.... Slowly....

2 minutes in and I was ready to throw up from motion sickness

HEY!!! No one was waiting to play that AFM game- it must suck!!!!

#823 7 years ago

Why is this crap:content ratio so high on threads like this and the WoZ shipping thread?

Nature Abhors a Vacuum.

Unfortunately, so does my wife...

#827 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I don't know why the hell you guys want updates anyway? Personally, I don't want to know every star post added to the game. The way he handled WOZ was crappy. There was no element of surprise, every aspect of it, I saw as it was being done, so when I actually saw the game in person, it was very uneventful. the whole game had a MEH, element to it. If I would have knew nothing and saw nothing about it, until it was revealed at a show, it might have blew my balls off.
You guys around here can't wait for anything. Impulse buyers. How crappy would it be for you as a kid on xmas, if you knew and saw everything you were getting? IT would have sucked. I know because one year I did know and there wasn't any surprise there. The surprise is part of the experience. Learn how to wait, and the less you know, the more impact the game will have during a reveal.

Agree 1000%.

The only Hobbit update I'm anxious to read is:

"In stock and shipping"

#849 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

It's just like the fact you shouldn't take preperation H orally. .

Well, some people talk out of their asses, so perhaps its NOT that bad of an idea....

#870 7 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Has JJP made any comments about Hobbit code completeness at launch? I know he had said WOZ code would be "complete" at launch, and that was not the case. As someone who is thinking of pre-ordering, this is the biggest deal for me. I have no desire to buy a pin with incomplete code ever again.
Please don't turn this question into a bash JJP opportunity...thank you!

Well, looking at the glass half-full... WoZ WILL be code complete for the poor bastards that are finally getting them over the next XXXX-ish days

#879 7 years ago
Quoted from mummite:

» YouTube video

hmmm. right flipper seems weak.
But on the "bright side" it looks like they resolved the GI issues...

sigh. i really dont want to look at the incremental progress- but then I still click the videos... damnit.

1 month later
#1056 7 years ago
Quoted from heckheck:

I think I convinced Jack at Allentown that an extra flipper button is also necessary for gameplay, so advanced players don't have to remove their hands from the sides of the cabinet. So with both buttons present, problems all solved for a couple extra bucks.

Ugh.... would love that option on ACDC.... I hate having to work the cannon button during multiball...

#1060 7 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Cue up the photoshoppers!

OK... hows this?


#1064 7 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Ok.. but I would have figured you would have photoshopped him reading it upside down.

But is that the only change you found?

#1068 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Unlike Obama, G.B. has been seen in pictures with books upside down in his hands. Obama is smarter, just not very good with money.

great idea.... bring politics into a JJP thread....

Thought that was verbotten?

I got a warning once for just saying we made a mistake in 2012- without even referncing politics.... lol.... anyways- there's usually enough fireworks here without bringing non-pinball topics in, eh?

#1083 7 years ago

Well, that would be a short thread for sure.... look at whats heralded as "updates" now: pictures of jack reading a book? lol... he couldnt have found an easier crowd to please....

#1089 7 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

JJP keeps their customer base more in the loop than anyone else in the industry. .

Apples and anvils...

Stern doesn't need to keep me in the loop- they have a unique model: whens I pays them, theys gives me a pinball machine
That aside, I'd probably also direct you to the MMr thread- not quite sure anyone could ask for more real updates.....

On the otherhand, part of me really wants to see NO updates on the pin till it ships- I'm anxious to see what they do and I feel dribbling out every detail (to be warped, Photoshopped analyzed and revealed) will leave precious little magic for the end...

#1131 7 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

It just doesnt really matter cause for those that are so dead against any amazing machine they are the ones who lose out in the end. just sayin

Who's "dead against amazing machines"??

Criticism of JJP's business practices and/or Jack ≠ "against amazing pinball machines"

Don't feel bad for missing this simple point, Jack does it all the time as well.... it's his go-to retort to criticism (besides blaming his suppliers for screwing up )

I, for one, am extremely interested to SEE a WORKING and FINISHED The Hobbit machine. I think WoZ has some amazing features and advances, but the gameplay, theme and music were no-go's for my tastes... such is life. However:

A faster game, with a great theme (TH) AND all those technical advances "seems" like a big potential winner. So Im anxious to see TH. I'll still never in a million years pre-order, but I'll still be a customer if the games come out great and they work out many of the problems that plagued WoZ.....

Many folks here tie any criticism of Jack or JJP directly to criticism of his game (and their game!) and, even more insanely, to criticism of pinball in general! LOL.

Example; I think Steve Jobs was a colossal a-hole, but I separated that from evaluating and owning MANY Apple product when they met my needs/interests.

#1144 7 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Joe's been working almost exclusively on Hobbit for over 18 months. I would guess that his part of the design is most likely done and it's mostly software/sound/lcd work that remains.

The Hobbit, by Alan Smithee


i think you're right. Hard to imagine anyone putting in that much time and then leaving with the work incomplete.... Sounds like he was done/mostly done, another opportunity came up (and since PL was already contracted for #3) he moved to another project.

I regard this announcement as un-epic.

#1148 7 years ago

Id like to see them find a way to leverage this in a game

4 months later
#1639 6 years ago

A couple legit updates! Yay!

I was underwhelmed with the PF art when first show, but I admit I knew next to nothing about the approval process and how little creative latitude it sounds like JJP has/had.

Frankly, my interest in TH pinball has been waning already based on the mediocre 2nd film... if the 3rd is more of the same, well, then, meh....who knows.

On the flip side, this makes me even more excited to see an original themed game from my all-time favorite pinball designer....

1 week later
#2057 6 years ago
Quoted from John_in_NC:

Point I was making is JJP is providing updates but does not have to as they are established as a legit pinball maker (as Stern is). I went on to say I would not be as open as JJP is being because of trolls crapping on anything they put out.

There's a big difference here (still).

JJP isnt dribbling out updates out of ther goodness of their hearts.

Unlike Stern, JJP is still beholden to pre-payment to keep the lights on. When they are asking for people to pay years in advance, they *DO* have to provide more updates than an established manufacturer.

Id prefer not to know ANYTHING about TH prior to it being *done* but I understand why that just isnt going to happen (due to above).

My hope is that JJP has worked out the kinks on production (the past few weeks certainly seem like it!), and The Hobbit will move much faster into the market. And THEN, JJP#3 may not require prepayment at all... And they can just release info when its ready, not when they think they have to to keep investors from panicking.

1 month later
#2306 6 years ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

Why is the pic taken from the ground level.


#2451 6 years ago

Wow, PF is a quantum leap better....just astoundingly better! Can they get that artist to redo my ACDC play field art?

Sigh, it reinforces my thoughts that sometimes they do themselves a disservice by showing so much in-process work, but perhaps they needed to?

Still not sold on smaug, but time will tell.

Big kudos on that PF, just gorgeous!

#2668 6 years ago


As much as I love the new PF art, I'm NOT loving that Smaug.

Granted PART is because the suspense around the reveal built up my expectations so high, but still, its really not awesome to look at....

Need gameplay video and more detail around the Smaug action.

I'm neutral on the book/lcd. While I love the use of the technology, Im thinking its been shoe-horned into the game in a way that doesn't make sense. The crystal ball in Woz made sense- this? Looking forward to being proven wrong when i see it in action, though.

pinside mgmt, PLEASE consider simply disallowing posts for the first 30-days an account has been opened unless they contribute like $20 or something....

#2823 6 years ago

Video looks good:

Led is awesome...
Pop up: awesome
Drops: awesome
Speed: looks pretty damn fast to me?! Not sure what the concerns about it were based on...

Still not sold on the book/led
Just can't love that dragon toy

#2915 6 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

While there are some things that arent done and unfair to criticize,

How is it unfair to criticize a machine they are putting ON DISPLAY?!

Because its "not done"?

Well, shucks, then they should play it like Stern and show a finished product. However, I think anything they show is fair game for criticism.

And, frankly, the criticism has seemed to HELP them as it pertains to TH.... they responded to previous criticism with some improvements.... Win-Win.

#2931 6 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

I disagree on LoTR and I agree on TH. They are like opposites to me.
LoTR: Overall fantastic with a handful of moments I didn't like.
TH: Overall I don't like it, with a handful of moments that are fantastic.


To me, his film interpretation of LOTR was better than I expected.
I would rank it with Harry Potter and Game of Thrones and some of the best big screen adaptations of epic literature....

The Hobbit?
Sigh, It would probably be better if I had NOT read the book (10 times). It just feels like a cash grab to me.... take a beloved story, hack the plot to death, stretch it into 3 films and cha-ching.

#2981 6 years ago
Quoted from Santeh:

With respect, this would not be correct in my case. My work is very, very busy thus there was no way I could go to IAAPA, but with the weekend I could go one day to Free Play and I did. I have been in on the Hobbit for ~1.5 years and I was VERY disappointed to see that there was no Hobbit at Free Play. This would have been my only chance to play a $7500+ machine before taking possession. With all that I have seen, read about, and heard from those that have played the Hobbit the no show at Free Play ended my current involvement in the Hobbit as I have now cancelled my pre-order. I admit I am very sad to do this as I have been very excited for the pin, but after what I have watched (video), read, and heard from the Chicago Expo and now IAAPA/Free Play I am far too uncomfortable with the state of the pin to proceed.
I do wish JJP all the best and success in the future. I still hope to own a JJP one day.

I suspect you would have been cancelling your order either way....

For many pre-orderers, the "promise of the unknown" is probably a stronger pull than actually seeing the current state of Smaug. Hence, JJP had little to gain by more public showings and probably more to lose.

#3188 6 years ago

Sorry to piss into the wind here, but the head looked great on its own.... bolted to the "pile of gold (wtf, btw), it loses much of its allure to me.

I wish I could love this game, but its looking more and more like a title ill play in the wild, but not one Id own. BTW, exactly the same disappointment I have with TWD- awesome theme for me personally, but not realized very well in the game... bummer.

2 weeks later
#3353 6 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNavidad:

"lol?" Are you a 16-year-old girl?

Anyone who cant lol (especially at themselves) has no place playing pinball


1 month later
#3963 6 years ago
Quoted from GravitaR:

The Hobbit 3: The Battle of the Five Armies (2014)
Blu-ray / DVD release date estimated April 2015
Perhaps on DVD/Blu Ray release time frame. Was truly hoping TH shipping wouldn't drag out like WoZ but so far......

I've sadly learned to check these "update threads" about once every 500 posts for an actual update

However, now it seems I have skipped too many!

As such, I guess I missed some key points:
What exactly happened to the whole "contractually obligated to ship before movie release" thing?
But now it's about dvd release dates?

#3974 6 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

Huh? They were never contractually obligated, that was just assumed by pinsiders.


I find it nearly impossible to believe this was a complete fabrication from pinside with no input from JJP?

I guess its possible though.... moot point now since that date has long since past and it would tend to follow the pattern of EVERY boutique pinball company completely blowing their delivery promises over and over and over

#3975 6 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

Huh? They were never contractually obligated, that was just assumed by pinsiders.

Ok, so this was actually pretty easy to find.... search term "contractually" and it popped right up!

Quoted from JerseyJack:

5- We are working on the Hobbit full blast. We hired more people and unlike WOZ, we are on track with the game. We are contractually bound to ship when the third movie opens.

#3978 6 years ago
Quoted from fuko:

Let it go. Pretty much everyone in on this game want them to have a bit more time for polish. Everyone will benefit

I certainly would like to see a better game... um, who disagrees with that?

However, I find this whole "Well, we want a better game so its worth the wait" argument to be a false choice....

Since when was being "ontime" equated to "unpolished and/or poor quality."

And that wasn't my question in the first place:

I was simply inquiring about the statement Jack himself made that he was under contract to deliver the game at movie opening? This is quite different than the typical-run-of-the-mill-pibball-misssed-deadline issues.

So either they changed the contract, they breached the contract or there wasn't really a contract at all. Is there any other option?

OR, I suppose there could have been a clause written in:
"In the event that pinside thinks the PF artwork and Smaug look like ass, JJP is granted however much time it needs to release a quality game'"

*** Note that was sarcasm for those that miss such things or havent had coffee yet today ***

1 week later
#4127 6 years ago
Quoted from DevilsTuner:

is it still a year out before one can expect to just pick up a phone order and get one?

I'm afraid you will be able to get one much easier than that... likely right HERE on pinside. How?

1. Strictly looking at the playfield, the game doesn't seem to have the "magic" WoZ did.
2. Fair consensus is Smaug is a disappointment that many are trying to find a way to "tolerate".
3. Many are hoping for modders to somehow fix some of the problems.... already!

I'll give JJP credit for going back to the drawing board on several elements after the initial public reception was overwhelmingly bad.... but I just don't see this being the homerun many were hoping for.

btw- I'm not blaming JJP for this not being all it could have been- I suspect much of this had to do with the licensor hand-cuffing JJP's design....

the result:
I think MANY will be happy with this game. However, I think quite a few will be parting with this one quickly and you will see MANY more "huo for sale" than you ever did with WoZ.

#4156 6 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Wow, how can all you guys judge this game before we have even had a chance to play it? .

"Wow, how can you BUY a game before you even have a chance to play it"


Yeah, so if a company wants people to spend their money prior to playing I think they need to expect it to be critiqued prior to play... Right?

#4160 6 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

I don't want to sound like an jerk but I can afford to buy anything I want, what's wrong with that?

You missed the point (you were probably stacking your gold coins at the time or something)

Buy whatever you want....

My point was its foolish to ask people for money years ahead of shipment and then be somehow surprised when people critique a game while in-progress.

In fact, its a good thing JJP *IS* okay with this because all the criticism of the game *prior to completion* has likely resulted in JJP making a better game.

#4287 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I read it four times and I still don't have any idea what it says.

I think he was just typing fast to outrun the impending threadkick....

Re: TH,

Im not a prepayer, but have HUGE interest in this theme....

I have to say its improved 1000% over the last few months, but if Im being honest, I was hoping for it to eclipse WoZ (at least in appearance).... Im not feeling that.

I will say that I would probably have a considerably BETTER opinion of the game if it was just revealed today as-is.... All the hype about Smaug set very high expectations. The current iteration, while better, is still a letdown (IMO).

I look forward to playing one on location this year. (Come on Flippers in the outer banks, please tell me you have one coming!).

#4308 6 years ago
Quoted from robotronjohn:

I talked to Dave at Flippers Saturday and yes they have Hobbit coming. And a two collector friends local to RDU have one coming.


I love flippers.... its a bit of a drive from Raleigh, but its the closest thing to Pinball Mecca in the Southeast (IMO).

#4311 6 years ago

Hold the presses!!!!

I think I just uncovered a potentially new "Wizard Mode" for TH!!!


1 week later
#4428 6 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Except that Pat's game isn't likely to take sales away from The Hobbit at this point. It's more likely that people waiting for his game will purchase another title instead if we go too much longer without any info.

Well, with awesome stuff in the pipeline like Wrestlemania and Experts of Dangerous....

Um yeah..... I think Pat's game is safe for now.

I would frankly rather hear ZERO about it until i can see/buy one. Dribbles of info have totally turned me off for TH....

And, if Pat's game rocks, people will find a place for it in their collection, even if it means selling a recently purchased machine....

1 week later
#4482 6 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNavidad:

No. Wrong. That's pure conjecture. Show me where JJP ever stated a contractual obligation.

Quoted from JerseyJack:

5- unlike WOZ, we are on track with the game. We are contractually bound to ship when the third movie opens.

I love how this statement from Jack somehow became pinside conjecture over time....


So to quote you right back,

"No, YOU'RE wrong."

#4483 6 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNavidad:

Can someone please explain to me why people obsess over production dates when they're not buying the game? I just don't get it.

Let me help you.

You see, believe it or not, there's a crazy fringe element of the pinball community that buy pinball machines after they've actually SEEN a production model and (shock) PLAYED one.

So, crazy as it might seem, some people are interested in this title that didn't choose to send their money in as soon as a title is released.

#4485 6 years ago

I was being ironical.

#4489 6 years ago
Quoted from ozno:

Going to be the deepest game ever!

SOMETHING is getting deep- that's for sure

1 week later
#4585 6 years ago
Quoted from dirtbag66:

I couldn't care less about a pinball machine that is based on a nine hour trilogy that is based on a 320 page book.

Well, obviously you have extraordinarily high standards when it comes to your pinball AND literary works (Jurassic Park).... but note that SOME of us (I dunno, maybe 150,000,000 or so) are Tolkien fans.

I just wish there was SOME way you weren't forced to read (and participate) in threads like this where you have no interest.... If there was just SOME mechanism by which you could only read the threads that interest you....Maybe some day....

#4593 6 years ago
Quoted from dirtbag66:

Actually, this thread interests me a great deal..

Nice try....

Sharing that "you couldn't care less" about the pinball machine THIS THREAD IS ABOUT just makes you look silly. And, frankly negates any other qualifiers you'd like to backpedal into now....

There's other threads already about JJP#3, try the search function....

1 week later
#4637 6 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I'm still going with TH, and don't mind waiting. I don't understand why people who don't have a preorder care when the delivery date is.

I'll give you one reason:

Some people are very interested in the game (me,for one) but are NOT Pre-Orderers. They are the old-fashioned-type folks that want to see/touch/play one before buying. So there's plenty of people interested in this title that aren't "in on it." They arent moving on one till they start coming off the assembly line and into the wild, hence the interest.

#4684 6 years ago
Quoted from whitey:

That's funny ! pre order never again

I think Skit-B is in the process of putting the final nails in the coffin of (multi-year) pinball prepayment....

2 weeks later
#5021 6 years ago
Quoted from jazc4:

JJP had to get pre-ordering to make it happen, so they had to announce the game at concept. Impossible to predict completion date like that, especially when dealing with third parties (licensors).
When I put braces on a kid, I give a date for completion of the case. What usually make my prediction too short is the third parties (the kid and the parents). The kids knocks off my hardware. The parents won't bring the kid in routinely. Some things are out of my control. When I tell them a completion date, it always is assuming all goes normal.

Yes, but it sounds like you tell them it's a PREDICTION. I'm assuming you don't create a load of happy horse shit that you're contractually obligated to remove them before their upcoming summer vacation because it's what they want to hear....

PS, since I'm not one of those "end justifies the means" guys- please spare me the story that "it's actually BETTER that he misled people becuase the end product will be better."

I'm anxious to see the finished machine but I'll never beleive another word from his mouth that's not backed up by action.

#5053 6 years ago
Quoted from Euchrid:

If that is the case I'd be pissed! You produce TH because you made representations to folks like me who sent you thousands of dollars over a year ago based on said representations. Make those new WOZ orders wait over a year, and make the damn games for people who have paid but already waited longer than that.

That's the problem with pre-payment- little incentive to ship on time. And, in some cases, like this one, theres MORE incentive to ship even later.

btw- this is exactly the same issue WoZ prepayors found themselves in with "linejumping" to get standards out with "new money" orders.

So, prepared to be disappointed. Same bullshit will repeat itself until the pre-order fiasco is over.

#5075 6 years ago

Wall hanging ideas for those waiting for their TH.

#5078 6 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

So does this mean Pats machine will be $9000 right out the gate? Jack if you are reading this $9k for Pats game and I'm OUT!

Don't y'all think that $9K number was MAINLY to show some significant "savings" to entice people to prepay for multiple years?

I suspect you will see a lower price tag for JJP #3.

And, regardless of what jack has said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a water-down version of pre-pay for #3 as well.

$2500 holds your spot in line (once the final game is released) and the balance due upon shipping.

btw- I don't think that's necessarily unfair.

#5105 6 years ago
Quoted from frg:

Well you know - for quite some time the Dollar price equaled the Euro price... About one year ago you got for 1€ -> 1,38$, but with transportation and 19% VAT (in Germany) it was more or less 1.
But since the Euro lost so much value (1€ gets you only 1,08$ today), we won't be able to get a Hobbit LE/SE for 9k (€) - more likely it will hit the 10k mark. The german distributor doesn't even list the prices anymore


I was wondering - when you're making multiple payments on these pins- are you locked in at the US$ or the local currency pricing?

#5122 6 years ago
Quoted from Zebulon-74:

» YouTube video

Finally got to see this.

Pretty amazing to see the transformation.

Also, it proved *MY* perceptions about the limits of the licensor were fairly naive.

The design is definitely growing on me.... the LCD is amazing.... I cant wait to play it.

Watching this game progress makes me REALLY wish JJP was making Game of Thrones

#5217 6 years ago
Quoted from Goronic:

I understand. I just hate to see people bail that really wanted this pin have the chance to make their decision on the final version.

It's not like its "now or never" to buy the pin.

I'm anxious to see one and play one - once it's DONE- and then decide if I want to buy. If it follows the WOZ timing, the final software is many months away - so - plenty of time to decide.

#5256 6 years ago

Looks like more incremental improvement.

pop-up trolls = better than I expected
LCD = better than I expected (and I had HIGH expectations)
PF = while improved, still under expectations
Smaug= same as above.

Right now, I'm afraid the game will LOOK/sound much better than it actually plays (mostly talking about the fantastic LCD here). Still looking forward to PLAYING one!

One thing TH DOES make me increasingly optimistic about:
JJP #3..... and 4.

#5374 6 years ago

Of all the things I "worry about" too many modes ISNT one of them.

Perhaps that would get unweildy in a traditional game, but I think JJP's slick integration with the LCD makes all that FAR more manageable.

Also, with a somewhat simple PF, more modes = more variety, right? Whats the downside?

#5442 6 years ago
Quoted from TenaciousT:

PBBeerguy - You should have bought 3-4 DMD games for the price of that one TH . Plus - you could have been playing them now ! It will be a long wait till Christmas !

Well, you buried a potentially useful suggestion in a trollish delivery.

I would approach it this way (especially for someone that doesn't currently have any pins):

If you pre-order now, you may very likely be a year away from getting you pin. In fact, based on the past, at this point, you may see machines for sale in the open market long BEFORE your pre-order is built.

So here's an option: Instead of letting JJP hold your money for a year, buy a machine you can play the shit out of for the next year while you wait for the TH. If you buy right and take care of it, you will likely not lose a penny when (if) you decide to flip it net year for TH.

Its one thing for someone with 17 pins to wait a year for their 18th pin. Its much different for someone waiting for their first (IMO).

So get the best of both worlds:
Buy a fun pin today (LOTR?), play it for a year and sell it when/if you still want a Hobbit in 2016.

#5458 6 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Thanks to you asshats constantly harping on them, there will be ZERO discussion of Pat's game. No pre-order, no info, nothing until it's ready for production.
So, yeah, awesome work guys!

Oh no!!!, ;eyeroll;

Then JJP #3 may end up being the first game jack doesn't have to lie about delivery dates on. Hurray!

But even better, that means the end of the prepay fiasco hopefully...

#5489 6 years ago
Quoted from sj1000:

Are you suggesting that I should not be allowed the freedom of speech guaranteed in America.

I was assuming from the fractured nature of your postings that you were NOT American (or at least NOT a native English speaker).

And that may also explain your misunderstand of "freedom of speech." In America, the 1st amendment guarantees that freedom of speech may not be abridged by GOVERNMENT..... As such, there is no freedom of speech on a private discussion forum like pinside.

#5577 6 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

I am NOT trolling but honestly, for peace of mind, can JJP please produce some photos of Hobbit parts being stockpiled (like playfields) and a production line coming together?? If games have any chance of shipping in the next 6 weeks these things should be happening, right?

I can forward you pictures of Predator parts stockpiled.... So what?

JJP can MAKE games, that's proven.

To me, the only question mark is can they do it without prepayment. Until JJP (or any startup) can build machines without prepayment money (and worse, prepayment money from the following game already in the bank!), then their financial model is suspect.

Having said that, I doubt many TH folks need to be "educated" on the risk by you or SuperJerk1000. They've all lived though the WOZ drama and surely understand the calculated risk they are choosing to take.

#5665 6 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Some of you guys act like he's not releasing the pin just to spite you. Believe me, he wants it out more than you do. Things happen.

Meh... I hate that excuse "he wants it done more than you do." Not just because it sounds so much like your excuses for Kevin, but because its not really true!

JJP has already been paid for TH.... if he ships it on time... uh... no big upside for him.
WAY more upside for the guy waiting.

In fact, one could make the argument that Jack actually benefits from the delay? Why? because he can keep cranking our WOZ's for new money orders. Before you call bullshit, recall the line jumping money for the WoZ pre-order crowd.

Lastly, to the point that "people should have known better than to expect Jack to tell the truth on shipping timelines." - I think there *WAS* some reasons to expect jack to me more truthful on TH:
1. It wasn't his first rodeo anymore
2. His (at the time) compelling statement that he contractually HAD to ship in December.

BTW, I'm past arguing the merits of jack forgoing pre-order people for new money, my point is to suggest "He wants the preorder games shipped MORE than those waiting" is just horseshit.

#5670 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

This makes no sense. You don't make money as a manufacturer waiting.

I agree... But I'm not talking about "manufacturing waiting"

I mean while TH gets delayed, they crank our WOZ machines for CASH. The next 1000 TH's they make create zero cash flow.

Now eventually the WOZ backlog gets filled, then they would NEED to start building THs, but I got the impression they still had quite a few WOZ machines they could build.

#5702 6 years ago
Quoted from PinPatch:

Good to hear minimal stuff coming from China. Big thumbs up.

Yeah... Because manufacturing in the U.S. Automatically = quality & long term success!

(Insert photo of Detriot looking like Beirut- without the glitz)

#5704 6 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:

Didn't jack just allude to the fact that he's got the Star Wars Licence??? Isn't Star Wars the exact situation all over again, all three new movies not yet released and IP assets may not be available.
I don't get it

Well, maybe the "unless there are 2 in the bag" is meant to suggest he won't do the SW pin until AFTER episode 8 is released waiting on episode 9. Frankly that's about how long it wold take them to get to JJP#4 or 5 anyways....

#5707 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I'm from Michigan and work in Detroit and can tell you that we make some of the best vehicles in the world. The big 3 have stepped it up big time over the past 5 years in terms of quality. Also, Detroit itself is coming back which has been great to see. I've noticed the city improving heavily over the past 5 years. Detroit still has a long way to go but the recovery now has momentum and positive changes are happening all the time.

I made an unfair dig at Detroit about Quality. quality isn't the problem.

The greater problem is the public and private unions that have bankrupted the city. Add in the white flight issues and you have a disaster.

Demographics= destiny.

#5761 6 years ago

I'm more excited to see that topper in action than Smaug


Looks awesome...

#5842 6 years ago

Wow- what a difference from that first released video (last year ?)!

PF looks great.

I'm not in love with the sling toys- but -meh- not a deal breaker.
Smaug is still...disappointing... I WANT to love this game so anxious to play one once they start shipping.

This is going to make shelling out ~$8K for GOT very painful if Stern hasn't figured out how to elevate their backglass out of the 90's by then....

I doubt I could absorb much of whats happening on that display while playing (I usually can hardly even glance up to see my score ) but MAN is it gorgeous to look at!

ON location, I cant imagine anything else capturing as much attention!

#5897 6 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

A couple of folks said shipping in late June. Not sure if that is speculation or not.

In boutique pinball, I think EVERYTHING is speculation until you see a truck roll up in from if your house.

#6020 6 years ago
Quoted from dtowndobe:

I was told, by Jack ...

"How do you know when Jack is lying about shipping dates?" ***

What different does is make what jack "says"?

We could fill a page with his 99% inaccurate predictions on production. I think its fair to say jack has almost no earthy idea on his own production schedule. The one time I almost believed him was back when he threw in the "contractually obligated" story....

Either he just says what he thinks he has to to keep the pre-order people calm, or
He just hasn't a clue.

Neither one is super attractive, but no one should really be surprised anymore. I'm sure TH pre-order folks have a thick skin about this sort of thing by now.

Nothing he says is believable, "pictures or it didn't happen" when it comes to production Im afraid....

The good news is TH is looking better than it even has....

*** answer: when his lips are moving.

#6055 6 years ago

I wonder if there's a MORE eyerollingly-expected and overused retort in these threads than "what year"

Just goes to show you- humor is much harder than it looks.

1 week later
#6098 6 years ago
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:

Don't worry, some Pinsiders will jump in and justify this newest delay!

It's easier to just setup some macros

"No one wants these games to ship more than Jack does!!!!

"Would you rather have the game SOONER or have it be BETTER?!?!"

"The game has improved sooooo much BECAUSE it's so late! JJP did us a favor by waiting!"

"Stern Sucks"

#6131 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballRulez:

Reaction from Jack:
"There was some poor planning and some people were fired who were responsible....

Sad. Good leaders usually take responsibility at the top for failures like this and PRIVATELY address things like firing people.... We've heard the blame game on suppliers before though...

Quoted from PinballRulez:

Reaction from Jack:
Your observation is similar to someone who chops trees down for a living making an observation about brain surgery.

There's some classic Jack! . HIS observations are similar to someone who's simply been a distributor for a living thinking they can suddenly become a manufacturer..... People in glass houses....

Quoted from PinballRulez:

Reaction from Jack:
If you want a Great Game - this is what it takes. If you want something else, that's your choice. Thanks".

The old JJP Maxim:
"We can either keep our promises OR you can have a Quality game. You can't get both. Choose!"

#6135 6 years ago
Quoted from dtowndobe:

The silence, for me, is deafening...

Maybe pinside needs the "Anonymous Group" to come out of retirement, put on their superhero costumes and save the day?

#6140 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I personally just assume the worst when there's silence, people who have bad news don't like to post updates.


And history (in addition to common sense) has proven it out.

We are following the trajectory of WoZ in this respect:

Jack continues to over-promise and under-deliver on status.
If he told the truth, some (many?) would bail and take their money elsewhere.
So, its better for him to look the dolt who cant understand his own production schedule rather than the alternative of losing his working capital.

Be honest: If he said a YEAR ago, production was a still a year+ away, some would stay, yes, but many would take their $$$$ and buy real machines.

btw- this subterfuge is 100% made possible by the prepay model. When it dies, the truth will win.

#6145 6 years ago
Quoted from MapleSyrup:

Ok. Here's my 2 cents. I think those are the words of a frustrated man.
That said, it must get tiresome to hear non stop totally misinformed speculation..

Sorry, but that's complete horseshit.

Jack is frustrated by the conjecture? He's 100% responsible for it though!

That's like taking a crap in the middle of your own living room and then complaining about the smell.

#6183 6 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Sorry, I have to call BS on this. An optimist says a machine will be out next month and delivers the machine a month or two late. Someone who is dishonest says the machines will be done in three months knowing there is no way they will in order to keep the customer's cash. Just watch the MPE video where he's asking when WOZ will ship. What a horrible poker face.
It's time people stop trying to excuse Jack's poor behavior and dishonesty. When you buy from JJP you know not to listen to anything said by Jack. You'll know what machine you're going to get when it's delivered. Many people love the machines and that cool. Stop making excuses for him. He is who he is. Quite frankly it's better he says nothing than to be dishonest IMO.


Optimism ≠ Lying

It's sad that most people here are "OK" with not believing what Jack says about delivery. Its like, "hey, he's an awesome guy, is passionate about pinball, but hehehe, he lies hs ass off when it comes to delivery... *chuckle* good 'ol Jack.... you know... hey- he *IS* from New Jersey... hehe..."

Unfortunately it just further supports this "end justifies the means" shadiness.

#6191 6 years ago
Quoted from PACMAN:

Consider this.
Jack is building Ferraris
Gary is building Hondas
One takes considerably longer to build than the other.

I think a better analogy is Jack is Preston Tucker; Gary is Ford.

but whatever...

#6216 6 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Trust me I wish I had shares in JJP with what's Coming!!

Interestingly, we can find this exact quote in both the SkitB and Jpop threads at one point or another.... actually several times....

#6221 6 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

The delay of the Hobbit has nothing to do with parts or designs. It has to do with cash flow. Hobbit will not start until orders for WOZ slow down. There is no way JJP can shut down the flow of new money while building hundreds of machines that were paid for years ago. That money left the station long ago.

Building TH = zero *immediate* cash flow, in fact, it creates negative $$$ flow since he needs to buy parts

Building WoZ= cash flow.

I said as much months ago when folks were lamenting the delays and suggesting (weepily) that "Jack wants these games produced as quickly as possible more than anyone here does"

To which I stated the same....

Its exactly the same issue as the standard line jumpers back when pre-roder folks were waiting.

Its not surprising. The only thing surprising is the people that continue to be surprised by this.

"Contractual obligations" be damned, TH will hit the assembly line "purely coincidentally" once the WoZ backlog subsides....

#6277 6 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

too much Team Smaug on the SE, i agree... the Hobbit is not just about a dragon.
and i want cabinet art to reflect that.

Yes, I agree.

If Stern announces Game of Thrones next (which is expected), I wonder if that will compete for the dragon-lovers among us? Especially if folks are still a year+ away from seeing a machine....

#6284 6 years ago
Quoted from Rferullo:

I heard him say more then once that they will not be building 1's or 2's a week.

What's wrong with building a few a week? (Starting a few months ago)

Especially of a brand new title?

What's the worst thing that can happen ? A dozen machines get play tested for a month or 2 before production ramps up?

If that's the reason they didn't start building a few months ago then I'd called bullshit.... But that wouldn't be new

2 weeks later
#6468 6 years ago
Quoted from Sammy31:

Just watched the twitch podcast from the NW gaming show.
Is it just me or was Jack acting like a bit of a high school jerk to that south American guy? I don't care if you come from Jersey, you can still be respectful and polite, or is that an oxymoron?

Guess we saw that part through drastically different lenses.

For me, it was one of my favorite parts of the show: a regular guy gets up to talk about his emotional connection to the game. I thought it was awesome Jack gave him that much airtime....

#6493 5 years ago

Nice new pics...

Can't wait to play.

...... Wish I didn't hate the lizard head so much .....

#6540 5 years ago
Quoted from dendoc:

Isn't it nice to have a "private " forum? Not sure why quotes have to be instantly posted over here as well......

A "private" "INTERNET" forum? lol.... An Oxymoron if I ever heard one!

Yes, it IS too bad Jack cant keep the issues with the delay more secret and away from prying eyes.... that strategy has been SOOO beneficial with other startup pinball manufacturers lately...

#6585 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

After watching the presentation by David Thiel starting at 7:22 below I'm considering getting back in on The Hobbit.

I was going to say, "trust your first instinct", but actually i mean your 2nd instinct.... Oh - forget it!

#6590 5 years ago
Quoted from TaTa:

You would be wise to buy it now for $7,500. If it's not your cup of tea, you would most certainly get most if not all your money back anyway. Maybe you lose $500, but that's better then paying $1,500 later. IMO

I was thinking the exact opposite:

"You would be wise to WAIT.
Wait for them to be shipping.
Wait for them to work out any early- release design and/or QC problems as we saw with WoZ.
Wait for more mature code.
Wait and make sure they ship at all.

You may very likely find HUO models for the exact price you looking at committing up from to..."

#6619 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

I work in PR and ...

um, please mark this post UNSAFE.

You now owe my $29 as I just spit ice tea out my nose and onto my wireless keyboard after reading this....

#6639 5 years ago
Quoted from thewool:

He's not silly enough to be talking to the whole of Pinside, for example I know he's not referring to me. But there is a core of people here who just love to yank his chain.

You're right.... I think he was only insulting the folks who dared to post on pinside during BUSINESS HOURs.... um.. oh wait...

#6672 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

It's only stupid to people who've "got no horse in the race."

As long as you recognize, only a fraction of people interested in a title are willing to prepay for it!

There are a lot of people who have an interest in a particular pinball machine who are waiting for it to be shipped before buying.

PS whats your highscore up to?

#6795 5 years ago

Is this a mod-free zone all the sudden?

#6827 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Lol, i got downvoted cause i gave a troll an auto-eject link.
How sad.


Click ALT-F4 and it will give you a free upvote.

#6837 5 years ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

never say never.
Spooky is just new and everyone is excited about it. And so far they've been very open and honest and most importantly, don't have a lot of money from a lot of people. And there's been lots of good news revolving around Spooky.

Open and honest?
Don't take a lot of people's money?

Don't downplay that! Those are actually pretty HUGE differentiators in this industry of boutique pinball....

#6853 5 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

The Hobbit in the wings starting in early 2015..

They might want to tweak that PR release text....

It hasnt been "early 2015" for quite some time now

#6856 5 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I just copied and pasted. Don't shot the messenger.

I know- that's why I said "they" and not "you" might want to update that quote

#6860 5 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

I somehow doubt that back glass issues are delaying production. They could have everything built with fully playing games in lines waiting for the back glass replacements to arrive if that was the case.
I still think the game has a chance to be really good if it ever makes it to production. I however, have been over it for a long time and am very happy I got out of my preorder spot long ago.

Yeah... Likely It was ONE item delaying things, and much easier to use a supplier screw-up as an excuse than to say, "shit guys, we're only 50% done on the code and were STILL waiting on some approvals from the licensor, etc"

#6866 5 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

As long as the market continues to absorb all the WOZ production, Hobbit will be delayed for any and all reasons. As soon as the sales of WOZ falls off, all those excuses will magically become moot. It's expensive to convert or start a line to build prepaid machines.
But thanks for your patronage, pre-buyers!

Yup.... New Money will continue to trump the old (spent?) money as long as the prepay system continues....

Nothing quite motivates ANY seller or manufacturer to get their shit together as money still in the hands of the BUYER.

I hope JJP sells an ungodly huge number of these TH's (and more WoZ's too) so that they turn a pretty profit and they can bury the prepay model for JJP#3

#6868 5 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

I agree with this completely. The events of the past year have driven the market away from a long term prepay model. I think that the Stern model is an example of the limit of most buyers' patience with waiting for a game that they have paid for.

Yes, well I don't expect JJP to get to where Stern is quite yet.

I'd be OK with some MUCH more moderate deposit program vs this prepay model. Example:
$1,000 to reserve spot.
and then zero due until machine is build and ready to ship.

Obviously no deposit at all would be great, but a modest deposit would be a decent step towards that, IMO.

#6886 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

I just found out, its the leg bolts.

f$%king Chicago Mafia!!!!

#6896 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I know that the games redesign took extra time, 6 months from what I heard, so that does play heavily into the delay.

Here's the disconnect for me:

Yes, the PF redesign impacted production....
But.... why is the software only 60% complete? (quote per distro that visited Jack a few weeks ago)
Why are they still waiting on sound approvals from the licensor?

To me, that's an indication that game was NEVER going to ship in Dec/Jan as Jack committed to with with "contractual obligation" story. The artwork and PF design is clearly not the ONLY thing that's hung-up production.

However, that's the most romantic story,
"It's delayed because we listened to you and made it better"

Sounds much better than,
"Crap, we f'ed up again trying to predict the schedule."

#6912 5 years ago

deleted as it was just linked above....

#6916 5 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I must have missed that in what he said. Which line was that on?

"He did not intend this to happen, it happened because of poor planning, because of negative posts cutting off and panicking his buyers."

The paragraph that begins "he got way ahead of himself"

its a long read, here are my cliff notes:

Quoted from Concretehardt:

Here is the letter for those that missed it:
JPOP Thoughts -19 Jun - Jersey Jack
"My personal opinions:
I don't know John.

he should have just stopped right there.

Quoted from Concretehardt:

skewered in public by the angry mob and even the few hopeful, hapless know it all armchair experts that do nothing and have never done anything worthwhile.

nice.... now 'were getting some prime Jack.... "all the pinside critics have never done anything worthwhile"

Amazing jack has the time to keep up with EVERYONE elses accomplishments to make this statement...

Quoted from Concretehardt:

I do not believe his intent was ever anything other than to deliver the best most innovative game he could design.

So, after admitting he doesnt know the guy, he *IS* able to determine his intent? Pretty impressive.

Quoted from Concretehardt:

....years of passion, blood, sweat and tears of his life to do this. Pinball is (or was) John's life. He did it for you, those who believed in him.

eh, you forgot about the part where he was housed and salaried during this "arduous blood/sweat/tears ordeal" So, lets be fair, "he did it" for a salary and all expenses paid gig... He risked OTHER PEOPLES MONEY.... not his....(sound familiar?)

Quoted from Concretehardt:

He did not intend this to happen, it happened because of poor planning, because of negative posts cutting off and panicking his buyers.

There it is! The reason for jack to wade into this shitnado- to blame pinside for Jpops failure! Of course! The damn critics! Waiting for him to coin a new phrase "PInside Mafia"

Quoted from Concretehardt:

Those who "invested" in him - well - you got what you paid for. You got to be on the roller coaster ride of ups and downs. You got to be an insider and an outsider. You had the money to burn for a big toy that nobody needs and that money got burned alright.

TH "investors" - please take note...

Quoted from Concretehardt:

You already have received your pound of flesh and if you truly cared about Pinball all of you would have rallied as a group to help the poor guy figure out what he has and what could be saved if it was possible. Instead, the lynch mob storms the castle with pitchforks and torches.

"Pound of flesh"? I think the folks burned would rather have their MONEY BACK, not a pound (or ounce) of flesh.

Quoted from Concretehardt:

The guy and his family have suffered enough, really, he has. ....John is not a failure, his company is a failure.
I feel bad for John"

<group hug>

Wow....just wow....

PS- to Jack: before you resume your stalking of me and criticizing my use of time- I wrote this on my lunch break....

#6917 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

We HAD to move the shit show from that other thread to here?

Normally Id agree... but.

JACK is the one that weighed in on the Jpop fiasco..

and, more importantly, he draws quite a few parallels to start-pinball in general - so Id say *HE* made it relevant to JJP investors...

If you had money tied up for 2-3 years with JJP and were still waiting through multiple blown delivery promises, are you saying THIS comment wouldn't have you a bit concerned:

"Those who "invested" in him - well - you got what you paid for. You got to be on the roller coaster ride of ups and downs. You got to be an insider and an outsider. You had the money to burn for a big toy that nobody needs and that money got burned alright."

You had money to burn on a big-boy toy no one needs and got burned alright?

And that qualifies for "getting what you paid for"?


#6925 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I know...but that's his OPINION. We all have them. .

Sure... but its also OK to keep them to oneself....especially those running a company. Im sure it would be very entertaining to here Gary wax on and on regarding his OPINION on JJP... pretty sure we wont see that.

Quoted from spfxted:

let's just wait and see

where have I heard THAT before.....

#6955 5 years ago

"I'm sorry ........ that you guys are so stupid"
- How to Apologize, Jersey-style.

#6959 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Unfortunately it wouldn't matter how his apology was written to some people on here as they will never support JJP.

You're right.

And I suspect no matter how ridiculous of a comment he makes, or how many promises broken or lies told - some people here will defend him regardless....

I think its safe to assume that this last fiasco will result in a NET DECREASE in trust for JJP. The comments he made were just too callous and disrespectful of the very people that keep him in business. After-the-fact-damage-control notwithstanding, I think we saw a peek into the way he regards "investors" aka big-toy-collectors.

#6996 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Take it to PM ya big P***y

I'd like to buy a vowel....

#6997 5 years ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

Hopefully coming out of Pintastic this weekend! Nothing to see here until then.

I think Jack has good news coming out this weekend.... Like REALLY good news....

WoZ backlog (and the NEW money that came with it) just about wrapped up, and (just coincidentally!) they are ready to put TH on the line.

And perhaps that's why he felt he could go into "condescending-mode" regarding his Jpop rant....

No way things are delayed yet again after some of those comments he made...

#7001 5 years ago
Quoted from Expletive:

Did Jack really say that those who paid thousands of dollars to JPop for one of his pins got what they paid for?
Is this serious?


#7021 5 years ago
Quoted from ozno:

If JJ was in huge trouble they wouldn't have made all those improvements to the Hobbit... They would have pulled a Stern.

"pulled a Stern"

You mean shipped a machine?

Not really sure "pulling a Stern" is the insult you'd like to make it seem....

No reason to bring Stern into this....

#7049 5 years ago
Quoted from cal50:



Wish you would have chosen a less prophetic screen shot though

#7071 5 years ago

Yes, mostly same PPT they used at NW so far...

Seen it many times, but still amazing how much BETTER the latest PF design is.... startlingly better.

#7074 5 years ago

Note: the crying/whining in the audience is NOT me....

Sounds like:
folks will see assembly work happening by open house
shipping by Sept 21

#7077 5 years ago

Good story about bringing Pat back into pinball...

No offense to the guys holding their breath for hobbit news, but definitely me favorite part of the show...

Good Lawlor stuff.... not much there for TH faithful though looking for updates though, was there?

#7080 5 years ago

Wow- building ANOTHER 700-800 WoZ game. Pretty Impressive.

Boy was I wrong about that theme....

Maybe it was my imagination, but I felt like there was more NEWS about WoZ and JJP #3 than there was about TH!

#7082 5 years ago
Quoted from Goronic:

I am starting to think WOZ will sell more pins than the hobbit. If #3 is as good as JJP is thinking it could sabotage many hobbit orders if announced this year.

I think GOT is a bigger risk to TH IF it gets announced before they start pumping them off the factory line...

#7092 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

It certainty could be. As much as I love GOT I just don't feel right now that it will have the same level of detail as The Hobbit does in terms of audio / video assets and rules..

Agree nearly 100%

I think a Stern GOT will be a huge success (unfortunately) even if they "mail it in" and don't do anything too evolutionary. The fanbase is too big and the timing is great to capitalize on that title.

However, to carve into the JJP clientele, I agree that 2 things will likely have to happen:
1. Stern will need to step-up (and out of the 90's) with better sound and LCD.
2. TH will hit more speed bumps on delivery.

I don't think Stern *CAN* equal what JJP has done on TH in terms of sound and video. It's pretty damn impressive. However, I don't think they would need to MATCH JJP, but theres rather a "close enough" effort that would sway folks.

Frankly, I want BOTH to be massive successes...
1. I want a great GOT pin, and
2. I want JJP so damn flush with cash, they can pump out Lawlor's game quickly and without prepay shenanigans.

#7103 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

So they are going to stop running WoZ and run some Hobbits, ?

Hells no...

As long as Woz= new money and TH = (mostly) money already collected then NOTHING will slow down them pumping out Woz's.... even at the expense of TH production.

JJP has claimed they can run simultaneous titles... hopefully folks will actually see that at the open house.

#7109 5 years ago

Does anyone know how many Woz's JJP has been cranking out the last few months?

Presumably that would be a pretty good gauge of their max capacity since they should have that machine assembly process down to a science by now.

#7159 5 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

So in realistic terms Oct to Dec for production to start, if not early 2016....

i know they shipped a bunch of prototype machines at the beginning of WoZ production ( I had the unfortunately pleasure of finding two of them on my search for playable WoZ machines). If they follow the same for TH, perhaps they ship a dozen in Oct, another dozen in November and get feedback before going into real production.... Btw- I'm not suggesting prototypes is a bad idea! Obviously they'd rather catch issues here.

So I think your estimate is about right.

SOME machines ship out in Q4, full production speed by Dec/Jan

The good news is - if they are cranking out WoZ's during that time- no worries about cash flow/ having to furlough factory workers, etc.

#7170 5 years ago

JJP is a private company.

Don't ever expect Jack to share the specifics of JJP finances.... Nor should they.

Jacks right, all the comments here are conjecture.... But his promises about delivery, and cash flow are just as subjective.

It's all about what they DO.
1. Can they build a great machine?
2. Do they ship?
3. Do they service their customers and take care of quality issues?
4. Do they pay their suppliers?
5. Can they function without multi year prepayment?

To me, that's all that counts. Everything else will leave folks guessing.

It sure looks like they have nailed #1 on the list.
Time will tell on the rest.

Sadly, look how many have tried and failed to get though step 1, much less step 2.

#7175 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You also left out 'prove credible with the market' -- so people will take risks and buy high value items from them.
Buyers need confidence in the product and the company. The concern is given the long run rate with limited return... is the sustainability there? .

You misunderstood my list, or I was too vague.

I wasn't trying to suggest they should do SOME of those things to be a success, I meant they needed to do ALL of them.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, once they get to the final step- "survive without prepay" - then they are viable. Period.

Until then folks will continue to guess at whether they are "stealing from Prepay Peter to pay prepaid Paul."

#7189 5 years ago
Quoted from JerseyJack:

We are not suffering cash flow issues. We are fine and doing very well at JJP -

Quoted from Banker:

JJP is looking for ways to produces the highest quality pin, my intention is to own each of them. Sad truth , stern is searching for ways to cut corners everywhere, and they are having many quality control issues.

All very gratifying to hear...

I assume TaylorVa's new PF is on the way then?

#7221 5 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Unfair comparison.
FT is US $6,150 for you. As compared to $8k for TH. (standards).

Shit... I WAY underpriced my Fish Tales then....

#7233 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

TIt's great in theory but some ops have a hard time windexing a playfield with their skillset and you want them to swap a playfield and load software?
I'm not seeing it.

God, I wish I could disagree with that statement.

Sadly true.

#7238 5 years ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

I'm glad the prepay model is gone though.

It ain't gone yet....

I will hold off my celebration until that's confirmed...


Ps- someone make a Young Frankenstein Pin!

#7284 5 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

they should have an option for scoring on the hobbit. i really hate the low scoring on my woz. hope they can give you the option of high scoring.

They do have that option already,

"Play better!"

#7325 5 years ago
Quoted from BoozeMarlin:

You're completely missing the point. See if Jack was realistic with himself and JJP's current finanical situation he would've demanded a refund, rather than replacements, and just gone ahead and shuttered JJP's doors. Instead, he's decided to continue to throw money at TH and fall further into debt


Reverse trolling is just as OT as real trolling.


Has JJ posted any other TH parts besides these backglasses (twice!)!

Or it is likely they would start with small quantities of stuff like cabinets and Pfs in case they find they need to make changes once they build protos?

#7346 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I was at CAX and saw the presentation by David Thiel and Butch Peel. I think they had a really good presentation and David shared some different sound clips.

That presentation was amazing...

I think the game will be in a class it's own when it comes to sophistication of sound and music. I can't think of another game that comes close.... Would love to have seen this treatment on LOTR

#7364 5 years ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

I think it will be a bad business decision if Jack shows Pat's prototype this year. That may w/draw Hobbit owners that have not gotten their pins yet. I know production is suppose to start on the Hobbit in September but we all know only a hand full will be out by December 2015. Just saying if i like what i see in Pat's game and i do not have the Hobbit, I'M OUT OF THE HOBBIT.

I'm afraid you're right... and thats why Im frustrated by the TH delays... more because i feel it is REALLY delaying JJP #3 even more!

So I dont think jack will set himself up to allow #3 to cannibalize #2 sales. At least not until he's shipped HUNDREDS of them and they're creating their own wild buzz in the marketplace.

I think a bigger threat to TH is a Stern GoT machine (assuming TH is slow to ship and Stern kicks up the innovation with GoT- ie LCD, great sound, etc).

#7443 5 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

That's a tall stack of unrouted playfields. I'm not familiar with what 100 PF's in a pile look like but I'd imagine it's close to what's shown in the pic.
What if it's just 1 real PF and all the others are merely sheets of foam?

Lol, TH-PF-Stack-gate!

I was just surprised youd stack that many PFS on top of each other without spacers...seems like theyd be suspectible to scratching that way- but who knows...

Photos of Boxes of parts still eerily reminds me too much of Skit-B. Im looking forward to seeing:
Machines on the line, and
Machines out the door!

Im guessing JJP will be trying to photo-op #1 during the open house at least....

1 week later
#7513 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

I almost feel like I am being trolled.
Why on EARTH would you believe that JJP's "spring of 2016" release for Pat's game is accurate.
Quintuple face palm


Jack has ZERO credibilty with these type of annoucements. If he blew his "contractually obligated date" that he himself committed as "delay-proof" - then why would anyone beleive something as inane as a pr release.

Nothing he SAYS means anything- all that matters is what he DOES. Hold the celebration till one rolls off the end of the assemly line....

Heres to hoping that finally starts happening soon.

#7519 5 years ago
Quoted from brent149:

Why did he need an investment? Thought he said things were going great.

No one but jack knows JJPs financial health.... We can draw conclusions from their their credit raring, etc, but its mostly conjecture.

However, plenty of healthy companies can benefit from a cash infusion. Organic growth can be very slow.... An investment can help dramtically accelerate that growth.

Personally, i hope this allows them to cut the umbilical cord to preorder money, stop the line jumping to ring in new cash, etc, etc and move to a model where they can build machines, market them and collect payment when they are actually ready to ship.

#7549 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballRulez:

My main problem is the lack of concrete info. When is my game being delivered. Based on that info I can make a decision. It is all too vague at the moment.
And for me there is only one alternative at the moment, but that pin isn't available either.

You will NEVER get an accurate date on when your pin will ship with the pre-order model. If you NEED that, the options are:
purchase when in stock and shipping from inventory
purchase on secondary market

Not sure why you think that's overly simplistic? You may be aggravated with people suggesting the same options over and over, but if you ask the same question over and over, how else should people respond


1 week later
#7652 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Oh, it's a consensus, all right. WOZ ranks above both versions of Tron in the top 100.

Yes, that 8.23 vs 8.22 victory is overwhelming

#7693 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

IMO you hit the nail on the head with TOTAN, it's like the Anna Kournikova of pins, nice to look at but it's not a winner (IMO).

I feel you've chosen a poor analogy.

If it was the "ana kournikova" of pins, I'd never get tired playing with it....

#7737 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yeah I don't understand the delays either. I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again...The Hobbit is now taking longer to get out then the time JJP was announced as a company and the first WOZ's shipped...

CTRL-1: You hater.

CTRL-2: Since you're not IN on the game, you really shouldn't even have an opinion here!!!!

CTRL-3: Delays? Pfffft. Do you want a crappy game delivered on time or a SUPERIOR game? People should be THANKING jack for the delays- it will only make the final product BETTER.

CTRL-4: Oh yeah, and something about a journey....

#7791 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Gee, if we're gonna spec on stuff, I heard that JJP was making soooo much money that investors wanted to jump on board. They are now making an offer to buy Stern. All the signs are there....

Yikes.... Hopefully they fare better than the last pinball startup you vouched for....

#7805 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

...or if people just shut up when they're asked to shut up. I hear stuff, and I hear stuff because people know I don't talk. Sometimes owners are asked to keep it amongst themselves, and they don't do it. It's his forum (like this is Robin's), so I don't blame him for getting miffed.

With all due respect: bullshit.

Jack got pissy because he didnt anticipate how unpopular his (assinine) comments became. Then he lashed out at the reposter in a completely petty manner.

I gurantee you that if someone reposted something popular that Jack said, he certainly wouldnt have thrown the hissy fit.

Fact is - he was surprised ar the backlash, embarassed at the publicty it got, and wanted to squash it.

#7808 5 years ago
Quoted from GravitaR:

Over / Under of there being an update given at the open house this coming weekend that says and shows Hobbit on the production line? Expecting a Hobbit update of another sort more than likely sad to say.
Wish I could be there for the fun.

I would absolutely bet there will be SOME fashion go Hobbits on the line for the open house - even if it's purely for show.

At the very least, there will be a "mountain" of parts conspicuously on display read-for-assembly!

#7813 5 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

Will Hobbit ship before 2016?

I think "hobbit" will ship... the question is really will "hobbitS" ship

#7999 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

The code is nearing completion, and this machine will no doubt ship with nearly complete code. How many machines can make that claim?

If Stern took 3 years to ship AC/DC, and it was delivered with the last code release, I think you'd be happy

So it just depends on how important mature code is....

You can pay for a JJP and get it shipped with complete code.... in 2-3 years, or
You can pay for a Stern, get it in a couple weeks, and wait 2 years for complete code.

I guess it all works out there same in the end......kinda..... ish.

#8015 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I was trying to be positive about the wait...but there you are, ready to shit on the positivity. Don't know how or why you became so anti-JJP.

I'm not "Anti-JJP" per se
I'm "anti-lying", "anti-miselading", anti-overpromising and underdelivering" etc.

If you look back for actual comments about JJP GAMES, you'll find them mostly complimentary and hugely supportive of the massive innovation they have brought with sound and video.

It's Jack's ACTIONS that I've consistently taken issue with.

The way I see it, there's 2 camps here:
Camp 1: "The End Justifies the Means"
Camp 2: "Integrity Matters" or simply, "the END doesnt always justify the means"

Camp 1 supports JJP because, well, they WANT a shiny new pinball machine! Even after all the shenanigans with WoZ, they point to the END PRODUCT and say it was all worth it... regardless of what happened to get there.

They even look today at the year+ delay with TH, the obviously misleading statements from jack, etc, and rationalize it all away with something like "hey, maybe its a year late but all the delays will make it better"

And, personally:

I have a lot of respect for what JJP has produced (WOZ- even though its not my cup-of-tea theme) but I don't give him a pass for everything else. Particularly as someone who's been in sales and sales mgmt most my adult life. His style of "tell 'em whatever you have to get the sale" is disgusting. You CAN tell the truth and still be successful. Some people don't care. I do. And there you have the "personal" piece to my JJP criticism.

PS- I shared my ire (long before the meltdowns) with 2 other "manufacturers" as well.... SkitB and Jpop. I was labeled a "hater' there as well.... same exact premise for my criticism, btw.