Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

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#1901 9 years ago

TOM

DocRotCod

Pinside member

Edmond, OK

11y 60,150 1,551 2 6 1

Vid please help!

I had my TSPP in a tournament and when I got it back I noticed some artwork chipped off. In the area where the artwork was chipped they informed me they had taken the rubber ring off to alter gameplay. Two questions:

1) Could the damage pictured below be caused by the ring removal? I noticed that in other areas of the playfield where the ball guides punch through that there is a little bit of lifting around it.

2) What is my best course of repair? How to I glue down the artwork that is bubbled up?

Thank you!

IMG_6345.JPG

0

#1902 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from DocRotCod:
Could the damage pictured below be caused by the ring removal?

Nope.

Quoted from DocRotCod:
What is my best course of repair? How to I glue down the artwork that is bubbled up?

Carefully unscrew the post and take a pic of what you've got.

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#1903 9 years ago

F X

Coyote

Pinside member

9y 107K 9,014

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Nope.

Carefully unscrew the post and take a pic of what you've got.

I'm going to offer an opinin and say 'Yes'.

When a ball hits a post with the rubber on, the rubber absorbs some/most of the impact.

But without the rubber, when the ball hits a post, the momentum/kinetic energy is transferred to the post. Since the post is sitting on the painted wood surface, the paint and wood is taking some of that impact.

This is all in my head, though. I have nothing to back it up.

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#1904 9 years ago

DKP

tezting

Inactive member

10y 54,300 1,104 1

Quoted from Coyote:
I'm going to offer an opinin and say 'Yes'.
When a ball hits a post with the rubber on, the rubber absorbs some/most of the impact.
But without the rubber, when the ball hits a post, the momentum/kinetic energy is transferred to the post. Since the post is sitting on the painted wood surface, the paint and wood is taking some of that impact.
This is all in my head, though. I have nothing to back it up.

Funny I had the same thought. Also nothing to back it up but it sounds logical

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#1905 9 years ago

TOM

DocRotCod

Pinside member

Edmond, OK

11y 60,150 1,551 2 6 1

It will be pretty irritating if the damage was caused by them removing the rubber ring for the tournament. I will take a pic and get back with you.

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1

#1906 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

I always take the rings off my games for tournament use and have never had a playfield crack.

Many games have metal posts or wire lane guides with no rubber from the factory in that same position (think of super fast games like F-14).

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2

#1907 9 years ago

MAC

wantdataeast

Inactive member

Lexington, KY

9y 58,900 590 22

I took me 4 days to read every posting on this amazing thread. Being a virgin to restoration I have little to add except one FYI regarding Decals and use of Ink Jet vs. Laser printers.

I use to repair Laser printers and Laser toner is basically powered plastic, which would be why it is more fade resistant than ink. So with a Laser printer you are printing plastic on decals.

And YES decals, like any unrecommended printer media, are best to try when your fuser is its coolest (when you just turned it on)

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#1908 9 years ago

DKP

tezting

Inactive member

10y 54,300 1,104 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I always take the rings off my games for tournament use and have never had a playfield crack.
Many games have metal posts or wire lane guides with no rubber from the factory in that same position (think of super fast games like F-14).

I am no expert at all! I am just thinking, a ball rail is not screwed into the playfield. Could it not be because of it being screwed to strongly down?
My Goldeneye had the same kind of issue when I bought it with same kind of post. So don't know how it happend but it looks like 100% the same kind of damage.

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#1909 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Sure, if you screw down any post hard enough, you might crack the paint.

0

#1910 9 years ago

TOM

DocRotCod

Pinside member

Edmond, OK

11y 60,150 1,551 2 6 1

Quoted from tezting:
I am no expert at all! I am just thinking, a ball rail is not screwed into the playfield. Could it not be because of it being screwed to strongly down?
My Goldeneye had the same kind of issue when I bought it with same kind of post. So don't know how it happend but it looks like 100% the same kind of damage.

The thing is though, there isn't any artwork under the post. The paint actually goes AROUND it.

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#1911 9 years ago

TOM

DocRotCod

Pinside member

Edmond, OK

11y 60,150 1,551 2 6 1

Here are some pics: Notice the paint where it is coming up from the playfield.

IMG_6347.JPGIMG_6348.JPGIMG_6349.JPG

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1

#1912 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Touch up the missing paint with some acrylic.

Glue the loose paint back down just like you would do a Ghosting repair:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/2#post-551833

Many metal posts have a washer from the factory (often lost over time) under them to spread out the pressure.

The right size washer might even hide the damage from view.

post washer.jpg

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1

#1913 9 years ago

TOM

DocRotCod

Pinside member

Edmond, OK

11y 60,150 1,551 2 6 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Touch up the missing paint with some acrylic.
Glue the loose paint back down just like you would do a Ghosting repair:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/2#post-551833
Many metal posts have a washer from the factory (often lost over time) under them to spread out the pressure.
The right size washer might even hide the damage from view.
post washer.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Thank you sir. Much appreciated!

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#1914 9 years ago

GBB

mrgregb123

Pinside member

Cumberland, RI

9y 67,550 897 10 26

Vid - just redid the bright orange on my Dr. Dude with Createx, using the thinnest possible layers, heat-set each layer. It still sands off easily (some logs, some just normal). The Createx paints just don't seem to adhere to the clearcoat.

Am I doing something wrong? Is 1500 grit too rough? Would it be better to just not sand it and clear over as is? I heat-set with a hair dryer for 20-30 sec....it gets pretty hot and the paint is bone dry afterwards. Is this not enough?

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#1915 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

The rougher the sanding, the MORE tooth for the paint to stick.

If you see logs when sanding, the paint is not cured.

Once the paint is cured, you just want to "de-gloss" not really sand it down.

Are you leaving the playfield in a cold garage or basement? If so, take it in the warm house and let it fully cure.

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#1916 9 years ago

TAB

terryb

Inactive member

Banning, CA

12y 90,150 4,795 14

Quoted from mrgregb123:
I heat-set with a hair dryer for 20-30 sec....it gets pretty hot and the paint is bone dry afterwards. Is this not enough?

There's a difference between dry time and cure time. After 20-30 seconds of heat it is dry, but not cured. You need the paint to have cured before you sand it.

As a general statement acrylic paint can take from several days to a month to completely cure (based on thickness, number of coats, etc). I can't speak specifically to heat drying createx paints, but I typically wait about 3-4 days before sanding after air drying. I don't know how the heat guns changes that equation, but did find some info from createx:

1. The paint cures best when thoroughly air dried before applying heat.
2. Cure times are decreased when allowed to air dry between coats.
3. A bunch of other contradictory info (see link below).

http://www.createxcolors.com/PDFs/AppGuide_CreatexAirbrushColors.pdf

I'm sure vid will have better real world examples of cure time when using a heat gun.

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1

#1917 9 years ago

GBB

mrgregb123

Pinside member

Cumberland, RI

9y 67,550 897 10 26

Thanks a lot Vid and Terry -

Vid, to answer your questions, it is in a heated basement. The playfield was sanded with 800, I was using 1500 to sand the paint. The paint is already non-glossy after it's applied. It's got a good matte finish, definitely not glossy. Should it be glossy?

I've removed all the orange paint using alcohol and a magic eraser so I can start again at square one.

Previously, I commented on a separate area I painted white that rolled up into 'booger' logs when sanded, likely because it was too thick. It was allowed 2 months to cure before I sanded it and still came right up, so I chalk that up to too thick a layer.

This orange I did today however, was heat dried and the sanded an hour later. Much thinner layers too. While it adhered much better than the white areas I painted too thick, I certainly didn't wait the time Terry specified for it to cure. I read the PDF you linked to. Here is the process I plan to follow for hopefully the final take:

1) Lightly hand sand the target areas with 800 grit, then Friskett the target area.
2) Spray two thin layers of opaque white, waiting 3 mins and then heat curing each, to coat over the original bright orange.
3) Spray two layers of the bright orange mixture, waiting 3 days and then heat curing each (Createx says to do this).
4) Remove the friskett.
6) Lightly sand with 1500.

Does that sound like a good plan or a recipe for another do over?

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1

#1918 9 years ago

TAB

terryb

Inactive member

Banning, CA

12y 90,150 4,795 14

Use the same process at the same time on a scrap piece of wood (or two or three). Then try sanding one of them before you go to the playfield. If it doesn't work, give it more time and then try your second piece of wood, and so on.

Better than having to redo the playfield.

There are so many variables (humidity, number of coats, thickness, etc) that you can get a large variance in paint curing time. After a few tries you will learn how much cure time is needed in your situation (of course that will even change during different seasons).

Post last edited 9 years ago: “Spelling.”

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#1919 9 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

Vid, do i need to try to fill this before i touch it up? Also have you or anyone tried the testors acrylic paints? Also i know you recommend airbrushing over brush, but can you recommend a brush technique to use until i can get an airbrush and practice with it.IMG-20150407-01120.jpg

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1

#1920 9 years ago

TOM

DocRotCod

Pinside member

Edmond, OK

11y 60,150 1,551 2 6 1

Update: On TSPP I tried putting a washer under the post. It will cover 99% of the damage, and also keep the bubbled artwork down. My plan is to inject adhesive underneath with a needle (as per your post Vid), use wax paper and a clamp to hold it down while it dries, touch up with black acrylic, and then use the washer with the post. With the washer, the ball is not affected at all.

Feeling better about things, still wish I knew for sure what happened.

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1

#1921 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from Insane:
Vid, do i need to try to fill this before i touch it up?

If you are not going to clear over the entire playfield, then drip some clear to bring the depression up a bit.

Quoted from Insane:
Also i know you recommend airbrushing over brush, but can you recommend a brush technique to use until i can get an airbrush and practice with it.

Thin the paint to minimize brush strokes.

Paint, sand out strokes, paint again, sand again, get tired and buy an airbrush.

That pink is going to be a nightmare to try to a spot touch up on - a really hard match.

I'd frisket off the whole pink and red stripes and airbrush the whole thing with new color.

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#1922 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from DocRotCod:
Feeling better about things, still wish I knew for sure what happened.

At some point in your pin's history, that post was probably loose and it made a tiny fracture between the playfield and paint.

Or the post was bent and someone pulled it up too quickly out of the playfield during replacement.

Or.....

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#1923 9 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
If you are not going to clear over the entire playfield, then drip some clear to bring the depression up a bit.

Thin the paint to minimize brush strokes.
Paint, sand out strokes, paint again, sand again, get tired and buy an airbrush.
That pink is going to be a nightmare to try to a spot touch up on - a really hard match.
I'd frisket off the whole pink and red stripes and airbrush the whole thing with new color.

ok, so drop in some clear to bring it up after I paint? I will p/u an airbrush at HF tomorrow. The paint you recommend, should I get the opaque? also where can I get the frisket? and no I don't plan on clearing the playfield. I just want to fix this spot and touch up the red where the mylar was under the pops.

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#1924 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from Insane:
ok, so drop in some clear to bring it up after I paint?

I'd bring it up with some clear, then paint, then if you are not going to clear coat, you will need some clear over your repair.

Quoted from Insane:
The paint you recommend, should I get the opaque?

yes.

Quoted from Insane:
also where can I get the frisket?

ebay.com link: 12 x 30 Clear MASKING TRANSFER FILM Frisket Airbrush

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1

#1925 9 years ago

MOF

mof

Mof Pinball

San Francisco, CA

11y 149K 13,329 25 94

Vid,

I've now got a few old PFs from the 80's with cupped inserts. Slow rolls, will sometimes catch on the edges of these cupped inserts, and really make the ball travel squirrelly.
I do not have the equipment to spray clear at my home.

I read your section on cupped inserts, and it sounds to me like the ideal approach is:

1. eye-drop the clear into the cupped inserts with a lil extra
2. sand the inserts back
3. clear whole PF

I was wondering is there a way to eye-drop the cupped inserts, and NOT sand, and NOT clear the entire PF ?

I am just wondering if there are any ways around sending the whole PF out fully unpopulated to be cleared for $375 at an auto-shop once I'm done with the eye-dropper. Reason is: 1. I don't want to un-populate the bottom-side if I don't have to, and 2. There are plenty of small touchups required topside, that I'm not ready to learn to do just yet.

Should I EXPECT the clear to run beyond the inserts, and require sanding, and then I'll likely want another layer on the whole PF?

thanks,
-mof

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1

#1926 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from mof:
I was wondering is there a way to eye-drop the cupped inserts, and NOT sand, and NOT clear the entire PF ?

You could try being very careful to fix it exactly to the edge.

I've filled some gouges without clearing the whole playfield, although I did sand a little bit.

Quoted from mof:
Reason is: 1. I don't want to un-populate the bottom-side if I don't have to

Find a backyard auto painter from the bulletin board at Autozone.

See if he wants to work with you, leaving the backside populated.

Quoted from mof:
Should I EXPECT the clear to run beyond the inserts, and require sanding, and then I'll likely want another layer on the whole PF?

Level the playfield EXACTLY.

Don't add too much. You can always add more.

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#1927 9 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

What kind of clear do you recommend for little jobs like this?

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1

#1928 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from Insane:
What kind of clear do you recommend for little jobs like this?

PPG JC660 (or it's plain labeled cousin "Omni 161" )

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#1929 9 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

sorry for asking questions you had already answered. I finally read the whole thread. Thanks for all your help. Who has the adhesive mylar for pops. PBR didn't the last i knew.

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#1930 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MFC

Quoted from Insane:
Who has the adhesive mylar for pops. PBR didn't the last i knew.

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#1931 9 years ago

DAD

rmillman

Pinside member

Branchburg, NJ

9y 31,900 165 6

I have posted a number of pictures and questions about my earth shaker here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/earthshaker-restoration#

I figured I would keep with my complete document set instead of posting that content here. Please take a look and comment.

Thanks,
Rich

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#1932 9 years ago

FRX

Frax

Pinside member

12y 103K 16,663 2 9

Quoted from mrgregb123:
3) Spray two layers of the bright orange mixture, waiting 3 days and then heat curing each (Createx says to do this).

Holy god, I wouldn't have ever finished Crescendo at this rate.. I'm not sure how my guy sanded it before laying down clear, but there was probably three days between me finishing the playfield and delivering it to him. Paint layers were pretty thin overall...maybe 2-3 airbrush coats dried inbetween with heat gun. Even bubbled the first two colors I put down a little bit...still came out okay. Just definitely realize that you don't want to get it TOO hot...lol..

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#1933 9 years ago

DUG

TopMoose

Pinside member

Cincinnati, OH

10y 113K 2,273 10 126

Today was painting day - I got an airbrush, a full set of Createx paints, a roll of frisket and a borrowed air compressor and got to work on the white fields under the plastics. The results were troubling.

JetSpinWhitePaint.jpeg

I was able to clean up the edges and all the bleed with rubbing alcohol and Q-tips but it still looks bad. Luckily, most of it will be hidden, but I'm worried about moving on to the exposed areas in the center of the playfield. Have I passed a point of no return? Or can I cut my losses, put on the decals, wax it, repopulate and call myself done before I do any more damage?

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#1934 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

I can't tell from the pic what the problem is.

The Createx paint can just be washed off before it dries if you made a mistake.

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1

#1935 9 years ago

FRX

Frax

Pinside member

12y 103K 16,663 2 9

Looks like either his frisket was not pressed down cleanly in a few cases (look right above the top tip of the right slingshot, the middle point of the big section on the right side), or it was not masked well enough to prevent overspray. I got to the point with Crescendo where I taped down all the edges of my paper that were over frisket, even when I knew the frisket went to the edge of the playfield, because I had a similar mishap a few times. I would tape down anywhere paper masks were intersecting above the playfield as well, and it was masked ALL THE WAY out to the edges on all sides.. that fine mist can float through some tiny places and land where you don't want it to, but like Vid said...if it's not dry and not set, you should be able to just wipe it up carefully. It's harder to get it out if you're having to remove it from planking cracks and whatnot though. =\

You shouldn't be using alcohol as a solvent for Createx as far as I know...just use a lightly damp rag or q-tip. It's water based.

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#1936 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

You have to make sure the Frisket is pressed down tight to the playfield before spraying.

Use a metal ruler to make straight lines.

Use a lighted magnifier to carefully cut the curves.

Once you "weed out" the Frisket, press the edges back down to ensure a good mask.

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#1937 9 years ago

DUG

TopMoose

Pinside member

Cincinnati, OH

10y 113K 2,273 10 126

I guess what I was asking was if I have to clearcoat the playfield now that I've painted, or if I can just give it a protective coat of wax.

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#1938 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from TopMoose:
I guess what I was asking was if I have to clearcoat the playfield now that I've painted, or if I can just give it a protective coat of wax.

The paint will wear off quickly without a clearcoat.

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#1939 9 years ago

DKP

tezting

Inactive member

10y 54,300 1,104 1

Quoted from TopMoose:
I guess what I was asking was if I have to clearcoat the playfield now that I've painted, or if I can just give it a protective coat of wax.

No offense but I don't understand why people think that wax gives protection to new paint? Who has ever said/written about that?
I often see people ask that question around the forum.

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#1940 9 years ago

DAD

rmillman

Pinside member

Branchburg, NJ

9y 31,900 165 6

Probably just wishful thinking. In reality, I wish it would work. I'd rather ask the question and get a definitive answer than do all the work of clear coating only to find out I could have just waxed. (for those of you just tuning in, don't do that.)

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#1941 9 years ago

DAD

TopJimmyCooks

Pinside member

Wilmington, NC

12y 31,650 232 4

Quoted from slgerber:
What an informative thread, thanks vid. I picked up a Game Plan Sharpshooter with a roached playfield. ........ How can I get good scans of these areas? Do I have to scan them and fill in the blanks?

That PF is pretty far gone. I did a sharpshooter a while back, and while it was dirty and had heavy ball swirl, enough paint was there to tell me what the art looked like. It's put back together and sold (so can't be scanned) but I still have it here for a while so if some close up pics would help I can do that.

I'm very happy with the results but they would have been even better if this thread had been out there before I did it. Thanks, Vid.

DSC_0504.JPG

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#1942 9 years ago

SLG

slgerber

Inactive member

Sugarcreek, OH

9y 43,150 195 7

Anything you can provide me with would be appreciated. Like close ups of the areas that are trashed on mine.

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#1943 9 years ago

DAD

rmillman

Pinside member

Branchburg, NJ

9y 31,900 165 6

Vid:

2 years ago you said (Post 126) "... I still prefer JC661 with fast JH6670 hardener for many repairs."
Is this still your clear of choice?

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#1944 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from rmillman:
Vid:
2 years ago you said (Post 126) "... I still prefer JC661 with fast JH6670 hardener for many repairs."
Is this still your clear of choice?

Yes, still very forgiving and easy to work with.

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#1945 9 years ago

SPY

Spyridon

Inactive member

Chester Springs, PA

10y 26,900 80 2

What's your recommendation for how to tackle this? If the text were black, it would be easy to print a new decal, but how to handle white text?

026.JPG

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#1946 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Depends on your color matching skill level.

That Atari purple is not easy to match.

You could scan and make a purple decal on clear waterslide and just spray the text and surrounding area solid white.

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#1947 9 years ago

FLX

tabrakadanak

Inactive member

Montréal, QC

12y 23,500 30 4 6

Hi Vid!

I am restoring a Black Rose, which have the diamond plate. After cleaning, resitting inserts, do I need to put a layer of clearcoat before I paint and install decals?
Thanks!

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#1948 9 years ago

SPY

Spyridon

Inactive member

Chester Springs, PA

10y 26,900 80 2

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Depends on your color matching skill level.
That Atari purple is not easy to match.
You could scan and make a purple decal on clear waterslide and just spray the text and surrounding area solid white.

I think I could match the purple in paint, but not sure how close the printer will be. I may find someone with an ALPS printer and print the white decal.

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#1949 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from tabrakadanak:
Hi Vid!
I am restoring a Black Rose, which have the diamond plate. After cleaning, resitting inserts, do I need to put a layer of clearcoat before I paint and install decals?
Thanks!

If it's worn down to wood, or flaky, or planked, you should lock it all down with a thin clear.

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#1950 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 174K 40,874 18

Quoted from Spyridon:
I think I could match the purple in paint, but not sure how close the printer will be. I may find someone with an ALPS printer and print the white decal.

Most "real" hobby shops can print white decals.

By vid1900

11 years ago

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