Just what I've always wanted!

That's been the hardest part of all of this for me to imagine happening...selling 200 MGs at $16,000 each. The final product would have to be mind-blowing beyond ANYTHING we've ever seen in the pinball industry, and gameplay would have to be fantastic as well which is still a major unknown. Admittedly, we haven't seen the "final" MG product, but what we've seen so far doesn't seem to justify $16K unless only a tiny amount of MGs were ever produced and were collector's items. With the possibility of 200 LE MGs and unlimited regular version MGs being produced, I'm having a hard time seeing this will work. I hope it does, and I hope everything works out for anyone with money involved and/or those who might want to purchase a MG/RAZA/AIW down the line.

Hmmm...even if the "angel investor" changed plans and just sold one MG version (the LE version at a $10-12,000 price range), is there enough demand for 200+ machines? I'm not sure. That ever-elusive, fully-functional, flipping, MG whitewood better be VERY impressive.

ok - quick n dirty ground floor pinball meme for anyone who wants it!

Now I need to step away - but this is therapeutic at least

pd_zy.jpg

Just trying to keep the thread alive (as if it needed it)

Damnit! It's already been delayed another 5 years from its original 2045 release. For shame!

Many moons ago. Back when Ben was still involved with BHZA. Ancient history these days.

I'm not going to get into an internet fight with a troll, but I do have 2 comments:

1. You quoted me out of context to look like I was being sarcastic about people owning cheap pins. I was not being sarcastic. I think it's cool when anyone has a pinball machine. I don't care if it's $500 or $20,000. So again, nobody (including me) was disparaging you or anyone else with cheap pins.

2. Do you not realize it's a dick move to come into a thread where people have communally been robbed of $1M+ and basically tell them they are idiots and so be it if they're dumb enough to make bad pinball investments? You didn't invest in this and you obviously never would invest in this. Fine. Why come in and throw stones at people when they're dealing with a situation as raw as this? No explanation I can think of other than just being a flat out troll. Your comments certainly were not constructive in any way.

Whatever, I'm over it. Say what you will, but this is a small example of the type of negative culture I was describing. Oh well. Shame on me for thinking (hoping) we would be more of a community united.

IF the working prototype ever gets made it better be the best pinball machine ever created. I dont see this happening.

Maybe they'll make it out of unobtainium.

knowing how he thinks, it's possible
ATM.png

People have a hard time spending $8000 for an LE pin from JJP or Stern. I can't fathom 199 people buying a $16k pin, unless they felt with the original number of MG orders, and if the original other JPOP pin orders get transferred to MG, they would have the 199.
However, I think if I didn't want an MG pin, but felt forced to buy it, every time I would look at it, it would leave a bad memory. A $10k pin maybe.

That's a VERY filthy keypad area!

$16k will buy you both a Hobbit AND Pat Lawlor's ORIGINAL themed game... IN LESS TIME for delivery for BOTH machines.

There is no market for hundreds of $16k machines. The limited nature drove the sales that were there. Silly to think you can just run hundreds more at the same price.

You don't go from bombing a project and producing nothing, to the best machine ever created. What? Is Bagger Vance going to magically appear in Jpop's shop and tell him, "We got to get your flip back!" That kind of stuff only happened in 80s movies. The fat kid is not going to dunk on the jock and get the cheerleader in a power-rock montage at the end.

Quite right, unless you are forced into buying it (such as this take it or you get nothing letter) it's very unlikely to sell such numbers. I'd bet somewhere if you add up all the people who are screwed between the three pins you might come up with 199 people with little choice.

since the new entity is absorbing the pre order money lost (ie discounts for the pre-order people in the amount they paid) that is why later versions can sell for a lower cost.

It is generous of the new entity to absorb the hit, but no one is going to spend any new money until the pin is built and proven to be great.

Yes, as much as I would love this new plan to work out for everyone, I'm afraid that $16k price is a deal breaker. If MG production is essentially going to be unlimited in the future, I think the price of MG needs to drop significantly from the original $16K price to make it competitive with other new pins in the current market. What to do with the already paid-in-full MG "owners", I don't know? It's a terrible situation for which JPop gets all of the blame. Heck, if you start to consider the Time Value of Money wasted on this whole deal from where it started, to now, to what still is needed, and to "IF" this can even be completed in the future with the best of intentions...UGH, my head hurts.

Wow. For some reason, this one really made my jaw drop. Yeah, we now know John is a dirtbag based on how everything has played out with MG, RAZA, and AIW. No surprises there. But to me this really puts the nail in the coffin regarding John's lack of character and ethics. The man is a psychopath.

The problem is, when others have LE's at 8K, and MG LE is at 16K, is it really worth it? The 'standard' MG is even more money (10-12K) than the competitions' LE prices.
If I was in on RAZA, I would rather 'eat' the costs of a loss, rather than throw more money into a MG pinball, that doesn't have the value, and be remembered of it, every time I look at it. Better to lose the money and forget about it. I can't help think about another train wreck,,the movie, the Bridge over the River Quai. At the end of the movie when the train gets derailed, the Doctor says "Madness..Madness"
This thing is the exact same thing. From start to finish. Madness.

How could he even possibly entertain a desire to consult on this thing for $$ if it went forward? If the man had even a shred of integrity or decency he would offer his services for free as a small token gesture of his desire to right a wrong and acknowledge the abomination of a situation HE created. What a despicable individual!

The fact that he was trying to sell others MG or RAZA machines two months before the latest announcement, shows that he has zero integrity. It doesn't seem to be in his vocabulary. That is why, I don't trust anything he says or does. I don't believe the money is all used up. I don't trust anything that he says verbally or writes. ZERO trust. Trust has to be earned, and he hasn't got anything in that trust bank account. His real bank account probably does have money though.

Not sure how many people you've been in touch with, but your work is fantastic, you had nothing to do with this negative nonsense, and I'd like to see you one day doing pinball work for some reputable companies. Maybe Stern, Jack, Spooky, somebody could use a great artist. Good luck.

Not two months, it was two weeks ago on the aiw
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6mg-raza-and-aiw%e2%80%a6/page/196#post-2467196

Magic girl looks pretty cool actually, but it needs to be produced in the price range of the other high end pins out there. It also needs to be programmed more than say TOTAN or TOM.

+1,000,000

The idea of this game (before we saw it isn't as cool as imagined) combined with the rareness factor is what made it worthwhile to some. I cannot justify $16k on any pin, but I get how some did. Now that we've seen it, I don't think it's that cool. It looks like a convoluted mess to me. That whole central contraption blocks as much of the playfield as P2K or Popeye. Add to that, the game is not rare any more!

Now, if you paid in on MG, you're already out $16k. So, the consolation of non-rarity in order to get the game is acceptable. But for RAZA people, who didn't want MG (nor to spend $16k) the new offer to spend another $10k for a game you didn't want is obnoxious. Not ONE CHANCE that I'll go along with it as currently stated.

You could try, Ben

He was saying that kind of stuff when he first announced Magic Girl... I think that was the first time I started thinking something didn't seem right.

Vegas is full of people chasing their losses

This I have a serious problem with. Please explain to me why JPop should receive a dime more? He has taken hundreds of thousand of dollars already. That's not enough? He won't consult unless he gets paid? Are you freaking kidding me? So he cares about getting the games built as long as he:

A. Doesn't get sued
B. Doesn't have to pay back any more money

AND

C. Gets paid if he continues working on the project

That. Is. Disgusting.

I remember when John first announced Magic Girl, and was talking and responding to people on the newsgroups back in the day... everybody kind of felt bad for him because he's pretty much the only major guy that Stern never hired (I think), or at least the only guy who wanted a job, that Stern didn't hire. When he announced he was just going to do it himself, the two reactions were "Yeah! Good luck! Go get 'em John! That'll show 'em!" and "Damn, I can't believe 11 people just bought that within 2 hours for 16K".

Now here we are several years later. Essentially Gary Stern called it way back in 1999 by not hiring him when Williams closed.

So yet another way Gary's redeemed himself.

Plus if RAZA a buyers are like me, were paid up to $6500 (I'm sure you guys know the exact figures even if John doesn't).

So paying another $9500 to get a pin ******not rare like MG was supposed to be ******* but it's not even as rare as RAZA was supposed to be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I say it any more clearly this is not a good deal to spend another $9500 on game that still isn't in prototype shape, may never be made!!!!!!!!!

$9500 is exactly what I paid for my Tron pro and IMVE both NIB!!!!!!

So in essence you would be paying the equivalent of 2 Stern pro machines to get a pin that you don't even know if it will be any good and you don't know when or if it will ever be made.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.

Lucy, Charley Brown and the football, I use that example several weeks ago.

Sometimes people's reputations precede themselves. In this case those in the Industry knew things about JPOP already, that pinheads did not. Now the customers know about his "character" or lack thereof. It would seem his career in this Industry is pretty much over. I wouldn't buy anything from him, just because of what he has done to people here.

Anyway, I feel bad for you guys that are hostages to this madman, the only thing that makes me mad is if he gets off scott free with the shell game he is playing. But if people believe in Mr X and it works out for the better, especially people will get MG for $16k that they were expecting to pay anyway. It's just the RAZA and AIW people that or more effected, and the whole notion of 1/2 credit that needs to go away, that's just insane x 10000

Well, we're partway though the Memorial Day weekend here in the States, but we still have no details on the Angel Investor(s) and his/their detailed plans concerning JPop. I hope for everyone's sake, the alluded to "more details coming this weekend" will actually arrive soon. I'm not sure what the true motivations of the Angel Investors are at this point, but if you (The Angel Investors) are truly doing this with a benevolent attitude, then God bless you. Oh, the $#!tstorm you must be dealing with right now must suck. That's what seems to happen to anyone who gets close to Jpop. I don't envy you! I hope it all works out for the best for EVERYONE in the end.

I'm sorry too. I am not trying to submarine the new entity although John's leter was not the best intro and secrecy as to who the entity is, is insane IMO.

I am merely trying to give both sides of the argument, the mystery entity is free to offer their proposal and people can decide. Frankly the proposal as given by John is preposterous. I think John may be able to make people partially whole a partial refund (Skit-B model), the other option requires an additional $9500 or so (more like $14K for AIW people). To think that any RAZA or AIW owners want to switch is the debate in my eyes, I guess MG owners are not as put out as they were already set for $16k MG pin.

Ice, why do you wish to silence me, could you explain why you are leaning on me to stop posting?

Reading some of Jpop's posts from rec.games.pinball on the newsgroups is fascinating. Check this beauty out from January 2011, when he was ruminating on Jack's at the time recently announced Wizard of Oz pinball machine.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/rec.games.pinball/iD-KhRAfkwQ/HZUraEusY-AJ

and software....JJ will need the best coders + EEs on this....again
everyone thinks making
a pinball is easy....but as we all see today...you can spend a lot of
time to end up with a
crummy game....it is an art + science....

at Zizzle we spent a lot of time on hardware and had a large group
(maybeEEs
on it....and maybe 15 in engineering and QA....we tested...tested and
more....the
system...5" square pcb...was almost good enough to run a 70s
SS....that project
took 12 months....at 7 days a week in 3 offices....also had to be
ROHS...

hopefully the JJ team has something flipping by now...after 6 months??
I know I would...

IMHO

John Popadiuk

LOL

I've got an even better quote from John from an article he wrote in 1997:

http://www.core77.com/reactor/pinball/

"The balancing act of commercial and amusement goals makes some pinball companies hallmarks of success and pushes others to die a bloody death and fall off the face of the Earth. The designer is the primary visionary in the creation of the well balanced game and through collaborative efforts with technicians, fabricators, and artists the balance is struck."

My reaction still. Having worked with him, I can tell you that the guy is completely self-unaware (as we all can see by now).

Hey guys, I've been quiet through all this and yes,I'm a vapor owner at over 22k+ in on all three games.

Here's an idea that might have a chance or maybe I'm just trying to make too much sense of all this.What if they gave MG a backseat and went with RAZA instead? I fully understand it's not as far along as MG but if they were able to complete RAZA,collect what's owed on it,then maybe we'll have a neutral ground. This meaning they have all our money and were able to prove they can complete a game and get it out to us. If they need to expand the 124 limit(99 originals and 25 Cointaker)on this title so be it,as long as we're working with original price.

Pissing off 19 of us( which I'm one of ) is a lot better then pissing off 124 of us. We just need proof that the new comer(investor)can make this happen instead of BS promises of years gone by..

Let's here your thoughts,
Joe in NJ

Interesting idea Joe, hope that can work out...

just came in my inbox

Dear Fellow Zidware Customers,

Pintasia Design Inc. is the Licensee to MG, RAZA and AIW. We want to share with you who we are and why we are here. We are in the same boat as you. We have interests in both RAZA and MG. By investing our own resources of time, money and efforts, Pintasia on a best efforts basis will do everything that they possibly can to help get back what we all lost to Zidware. To be clear, Pintasia is a third party, and is not a part of Zidware the company or their liabilities.

Pintasia is a newly formed company set up to bring the best talent in all necessary facets of pinball to produce extraordinary games ready for production:
• Business Development - Bill Brandes: business restructuring, real estate holdings, commodities, investment fund
• Finance & Operations - Sabrina Wei: investment banker, business consultant, Deloitte & Touche alumni
• Art Design - Zombie Yeti, artist for MG, RAZA and AIW
• Technical Support - Jim Martin, service and support for machines
• Consultant* (Game Design) - John Popadiuk, Zidware Inc.
• Legal Counsel (USA) – Jordan Litwin, Meltzer, Purtill & Stelle LLC
• Manufacturer – TBD, must be proven quality manufacturer
• Programmer – TBD, must have experience with deep rule sets
* John Popadiuk is strictly a Consultant, he has no interest in Pintasia and does not make any business decisions. His role is strictly defined as artistic design for the completion of the 3 machines in progress.

The agreement provided by our attorney was to quantify Zidware customers enabling us to plan a viable business structure. We have extended the deadline to June 30, 2015, please use updated agreement attached.

We are not asking for money now, and we hope to delay additional payments until production is confirmed. This will largely depend on the manufacturing agreement we enter into. We will release the information upon successful execution.

The Collector's Edition was set at 199, not to encourage an upsell but to allow the opportunity for all Zidware customers to get in on the limited run which will feature special elements. We stress, it is not necessary to have 199 MG-Collector’s Edition ordered to commence production, nor are we forcing anyone to convert from their current title.

The reason we created the Magic Girl Classic is to get possible new sales quicker on a machine that is nearly complete, these potential profits in turn will allow us now to confirm 1 credit for RAZA and AIW purchasers.

Our next communication will be strictly answering questions arising from this correspondence. This endeavor was strictly born out of the desire to get the money we all lost to Zidware. We have spoken to many of you personally in the last few days, the positive responses and encouraging words have been absolutely amazing. We want to thank everyone who has lent a hand to help out. For those who we haven’t talked to yet, we invite you to call at your earliest convenience.

Look forward to speaking with you personally,

PINTASIA DESIGN INC.

Here we go! Who got the email tonight about the following?

Dear Fellow Zidware Customers,

Pintasia Design Inc. is the Licensee to MG, RAZA and AIW. We want to share with you who we are and why we are here. We are in the same boat as you. We have interests in both RAZA and MG. By investing our own resources of time, money and efforts, Pintasia on a best efforts basis will do everything that they possibly can to help get back what we all lost to Zidware. To be clear, Pintasia is a third party, and is not a part of Zidware the company or their liabilities.

Pintasia is a newly formed company set up to bring the best talent in all necessary facets of pinball to produce extraordinary games ready for production:

· Business Development - Bill Brandes: business restructuring, real estate holdings, commodities, investment fund

· Finance & Operations - Sabrina Wei: investment banker, business consultant, Deloitte & Touche alumni

· Art Design - Zombie Yeti, artist for MG, RAZA and AIW

· Technical Support - Jim Martin, service and support for machines

· Consultant* (Game Design) - John Popadiuk, Zidware Inc.

· Legal Counsel (USA) – Jordan Litwin, Meltzer, Purtill & Stelle LLC

· Manufacturer – TBD, must be proven quality manufacturer

· Programmer – TBD, must have experience with deep rule sets

* John Popadiuk is strictly a Consultant, he has no interest in Pintasia and does not make any business decisions. His role is strictly defined as artistic design for the completion of the 3 machines in progress.

The agreement provided by our attorney was to quantify Zidware customers enabling us to plan a viable business structure. We have extended the deadline to June 30, 2015, please use updated agreement attached.

We are not asking for money now, and we hope to delay additional payments until production is confirmed. This will largely depend on the manufacturing agreement we enter into. We will release the information upon successful execution.

The Collector's Edition was set at 199, not to encourage an upsell but to allow the opportunity for all Zidware customers to get in on the limited run which will feature special elements. We stress, it is not necessary to have 199 MG-Collector’s Edition ordered to commence production, nor are we forcing anyone to convert from their current title.

The reason we created the Magic Girl Classic is to get possible new sales quicker on a machine that is nearly complete, these potential profits in turn will allow us now to confirm 1 credit for RAZA and AIW purchasers.

Our next communication will be strictly answering questions arising from this correspondence. This endeavor was strictly born out of the desire to get the money we all lost to Zidware. We have spoken to many of you personally in the last few days, the positive responses and encouraging words have been absolutely amazing. We want to thank everyone who has lent a hand to help out. For those who we haven’t talked to yet, we invite you to call at your earliest convenience.

Look forward to speaking with you personally,

PINTASIA DESIGN INC.

Telephone: 604-259-6581
Line 1 – General Info & Sales
Line 2 - Bill
Line 3 - Sabrina

Email: Magic Girl Info <[email protected]>

Enclosure

Tom you beat me by one second!

I'd rather belly up another $10k and force JPOP into chapter 7!!