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Quoted from rai:Since I like to look at both sides of the debate, and since there are no 'pro John' supporters here.
For good reason
Quoted from rai:But just because John passed his timeframe, doesn't mean it can never be completed.
Agreed
Quoted from rai:-Let's say he burns $12,000 per month
That's a pretty low estimate IMO, very low
Quoted from rai:-let's say he can make MG at least as good likely better tha CV. I say better because it's 20 years later with advancement in computers and graphics and he has better cabinets and hinges and likely better sound etc,, I would say it's a cinch that he could build a pin better than CV with the superior materials afforded by $16,000 price tag. So all I'm asking is he makes a nice pin that's nice looking, and high quality art and materials that plays as good or better than CV.
CV had the BEST pinball company ever behind him when he "built" CV. That's a very big assumption you are making. The sheer buying power of Bally/Williams in their pinball heyday allowed them to build that gorgeous machine for less. Let me ask you this, what do you think it would cost to build CV today from scratch, by ONE guy??? There was a team on CV, it was by no means just JPOP.
Quoted from rai:- let's say John removes the cap or has a soft cap on the number to be sold, let's say he will sell 50 MG pins at $16k. And let's say the first 25 people still owe something like $4k each.
If he raises the build to 50 the price BETTER not be $16K anymore. Original buyers would be in an absolute uproar and rightfully so.
I like your optimism, I just think you are way off on some of those numbers and assumptions
Quoted from NYP:Where are the buyers who live near his shop??? If I lived closer I would be at his shop demanding answers, does he still show up at the shop every day?
Seriously I feel for all of you with a financial investment here, but has anyone stopped by his shop, any pinsider, and if not, why not?! If I was withing 200 miles I'd go there and ask questions and I have zero financial investment.
Quoted from rai:I don't know who has visited the workshop in the past 90 days.
And herein lies the problem.
Quoted from Ronnie1114:I am not physically involved, but I know one of the people making parts. Its only up from here.
To me making vague, ambiguous posts like this when you apparently know more is only slightly less douchey than what JPOP is doing. There are people in this thread with thousands on the line. Have some respect for them. If you know something say it. You aren't under an NDA. But I'm sure you'll have some BS excuse why you must remain quiet.
Quoted from ChrisVW:-January 22, 2013
That's why we don't have ramps. He's waiting on a patent?
You don't need to wait on patent approval to build, that's why people always use the term "patent pending". Just an FYI
Quoted from pinball_customs:Well John isn't responding to my emails anymore so I'm going to be auctioning off the prototype Jinx sculpture i made for MG... I gotta recoup some of my funds one way or another.
Stay tuned!
pics?
Quoted from Whysnow:From my experience with Predator I would advise EVERYONE that has money on this project to show up at John's studio and take your money or equivalent in parts ASAP.
I have been loosely following along and this seems to be going a similar path. Get your money (or equivalent in parts) now, while you still have a shot at something.
Good luck to all, maybe they wil make a special jail cell somewhere to hold scam artist pinball designers.
I said it last week, but it's worth saying again. How in the WORLD has nobody gone to his shop and demanded answers? Even if it's somebody with no "skin in the game"? We are a community no? At the end of the day if this falls apart we all lose.
Quoted from rotordave:The facts .... Quick summary:
- a lot of money paid
- a long time ago
- not much to show for it
- lots of art revisions
- lots of angry punters
- lots of angry vendors
- great harm
- generally not positive
Think that about sums it up.
rd.
You forgot one
-Zero communication
Quoted from iceman44:I'll pay for your gas money and dinner
I'll pay for a meal too and I have zero invested.
Quoted from dgarrett:Of those in this thread (407! pinsiders, 8500+ posts !!) who has a dog in the fight?
Some are obvious by the post content, but did not read them all & some ordered more than 1.
Raz, Ice,Tiger .... who else?
As a pinball community we all have a dog in this fight, some more than others for sure.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:I'm looking to buy a magic girl spot 50 cents on the $1
I'll write you a check today.
Pm me if serious.
Wow you're a true d*ck. Go back to swinging from JPop's nuts. Birds of a feather I guess.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:I'm looking to buy a magic girl spot 50 cents on the $1
I'll write you a check today.
Pm me if serious.
The check is prob from JPop's account. Don't bite, it's a ruse!
Quoted from zombieyeti:1) (It is my understanding that)John will get ZERO money for this moving forward UNLESS he consults in some fashion which is his desire. Any money moving forward is with the new entity that would be able to hire AND FIRE John
This I have a serious problem with. Please explain to me why JPop should receive a dime more? He has taken hundreds of thousand of dollars already. That's not enough? He won't consult unless he gets paid? Are you freaking kidding me? So he cares about getting the games built as long as he:
A. Doesn't get sued
B. Doesn't have to pay back any more money
AND
C. Gets paid if he continues working on the project
That. Is. Disgusting.
Dear Poptasia,
Please explain how in any way, shape, or form, it's appropriate for John to receive potentially more money from this project whilst receiving no ramifications whatsoever for his past digressions?
Correct me if I'm wrong but under your "save the day" scenario JPop nor Poptasia have any obligation to issue refunds, correct? JPop/Zidware doesn't have to file for bankruptcy nor liquify any assets, correct? Poptasia now gets years to build the game and collect MORE money, correct?
For you to even think it's remotely acceptable to insinuate JPop will be paid for his work going forward is stupidity of epic proportions. This is not YOU looking out for pinheads. It's you saving JPop's ass and nothing more. No risk on your part, no risk on JPop's part and all the risk on the people you are asking MORE money from. The collective audacity of your "company" is bewildering. Your scenario is a joke, sounds more like a hostage situation than anything.
JPop would be an absolute idiot not to agree to this agreement. The customers would be idiots to sign it.
I think that's all you need to know about this proposed arrangement.
Quoted from TOK:Isn't it a good thing if he doesn't show up saying everything's OK? Thats pretty much been proof that shit is way worse than anyone thought.
The guy has also proved himself to be a big meanie (sorry I have to use that edited version as I've already been thread ejected once because I insulted him). I just find it convenient the guy who pushed people to stay in, eluded to all being okay, called others out for questioning JPop is now among the missing...
Quoted from wcbrandes:This process has nothing to do with any lawsuits whatsoever We were apprised half way through
Bill can you please explain how it is appropriate to suggest that if JPop stays on the project he would be compensated? Has he not taken enough from these people?
It is a valid question, and I think, one of the major sticking points in the Pintasia plan. JPop should be begging to help fix this, not looking for a paycheck.
Quoted from iceman44:What do you think the bankruptcy judge would do?
I think he'll follow the law.
Quoted from RobT:lol
So you are saying a Judge would allow that complete gamble to go forward to the detriment of other creditors?? It doesn't work that way. Where was the bidding on the license? How much was paid to Zidware for the license?
Exactly. This isn't a fantasy land tho many are acting like it is. This is the real world where the law will dictate what happens.
Quoted from iceman44:I do too, and do what's in the best interests of the claimants.
The goal is not to return LESS to the creditors.
For that matter, a reorg could be done and everybody wiped out.
Like I said, try that route, let's see where it goes.
In YOUR mind that's the best interest. That's not the reality. I'm sorry this has gone down. I really am. It sucks for you, all the people in for any of the 3 titles and for all pinheads. However, the law doesn't follow emotion and fairy land fantasies. It won't care about the love of pinball.
Quoted from iceman44:Give me a break. The dummies living in fantasy land are the ones that think you will get something out of litigation. That's utter stupidity.
Dude I agree with that. I do. Of course nothing will come from litigation. Monetary wise. From a satisfaction of seeing JPop burn, absolutely.
Quoted from dgarrett:Mr Minus - do you have any money put towards orders at Zidware?
No I don't. What's your point? I did email back with John prob a yr ago RE: AIW. Got his packet of info. He flaked on communication a couple of times and I decided not to do it.
Quoted from dgarrett:My point is you are sounding pretty pissed and calling out Pintasia, when you don't have any $ in this. Sure, we as a community, hate to see all this happen, and fellow collectors get hosed - but I'm trying to understand why you are addressing them, when you aren't part of their letter request.
Freedom of speech. I can address whomever I want in this forum. It's a PUBLIC forum. The best part is you're letting your emotional and financial investment cloud your judgment. Because I have no financial investment I can be a bit more logical. If I see a raw deal for my fellow pinheads I'll say so.
I'm finding it hard to understand why YOU are addressing me when I'm looking out for people...
Quoted from iceman44:Well a nice little break at the beach can do wonders for the soul.
Hopefully we can all have a spirited debate and then hug it out at the end of the day.
We are or should all be Pinsiders on the same side.
So I apologize for offending anybody and coming across like an A hole, I don't mean anything personally.
I've done my duty in defending Bill and my position on what i think is best (admittedly ad nauseum) but hey, good luck to the guys that are filing suit, I hope you are successful. John deserves everything he gets and clearly is still so clueless as to what is happening around him.
Dude we get it, you got absolutely screwed. I think we can all agree you have every right to be defensive and emotional. You didn't offend me. You should be allowed ample leeway.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:199 is the hard max limit as it gives everyone a chance, if they want, from the other games to transfer.
If demand isn't there for all 199 they won't make them.
Could only make the original 19 if interest isn't there.
Go away.
^That statement represents all that is wrong in this world. Every thread should turn into a boob thread, or maybe a bumskie thread
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Since Zidware owes me the three games I've paid for.
I think I'll stay and try to help Pintasia get games to the paid customers.
Oh didn't you hear, under the new agreement Zidware actually owes you nothing! And you don't want to fan the flames anymore? Or apologize for misrepresenting, misleading, being elusive or downright inflammatory? Course not.
Quoted from pin-pimp:Ok here is goes, I've been keeping quiet to avoid conflict but now I will admit it that I am the guy that built the ramp tooling. J pop did not pay me with your deposite money. It was a coordinated effort between many party's and after WC and crew came into the picture we moved forward real fast.
The deal is this, I own a machine tooling company, build plastic injection mold tooling and have a very high tech shop and skilled work force. I knew or became to know many of the people involved in the project and had offered my services. After spending many days with the Pintasia crew I really feel this project has turned and looks like there is starting to be more positive vibe. As things progress i hope more details can be revealed as far as the game progress and build. There are a few more molds we will be building for the project as we move forward.
Don't cruficy me, I'm here to help and will reveal what I'm doing to help out. I feel too much secrecy
Raises too many questions. I just needed to wait for the dust to settle a little before stepping forward.
I molded parts last night at 1 am and today cast the trim fixtures for the CNC to cut the parts out of the vac material. I can tell you we got a very high finish on the ramp molds and the parts are extremely clear with no heat polishing needed. Real happy about that.
Way to step up.
Quoted from Jackontherocks:Still wishing someone (or current company) to make games with original titles like these pre designs someday.
Quoted from RobT:There is zero doubt in my mind that this is a JPop design. This is definitely the type of theme that he would do, and the description of the toys/features is just word for word how he would describe that stuff.
I can't believe someone hired his ass.
It's a Jpop game. It's been all but confirmed. See the other thread.
Quoted from RobT:I swear to God if JPop shows up at Expo (or any other public pinball meet) and somebody doesn't confront him and ask him how he plans on making all of the buyers that he screwed whole (preferably while recording video) I'm going to start to believe that this hobby is full of a bunch of pussies!
I'm not advocating any kind of violence or threats. Just a simple and straightforward questioning. Like
"John, how does it make you feel to be showing off a new pinball design and theme when all those people who put thousands of dollars down on your other games like Magic Girl, RAZA, etc. haven't seen a pin or their money refunded?"
"How much did you get paid for Houdini?"
"What do you have to say to all the people that you screwed out of their cash?"
"Why should anyone put a penny down on one of these Houdini pins given your prior actions against the pinball community?"
"Do you have no shame?"
Dude I couldn't agree more. That BS with the dude who had money into Predator and saw Kevin at the auction, yet said nothing, got my blood boilin. They don't even owe me money and I would have been all over them. Factual.
Everyone needs to bombard American Pinball's Facebook with reviews and comments. Only post factual information and do not threaten them in any way, but let it be known what is happening ASAP people. JPOP is hiding behind American Pinball and we need to make sure everyone knows the deal.
So there's now 7 reviews of American Pinball, but the "likes" have gone up 19 since the announcement. That's seriously disappointing. A lot of shit being talked on Pinside and not a lot of action. It takes 2 minutes to write a review to warn the pinball community. I'm seriously beginning to think RobT is on to something....if you think social media doesn't mean anything you are dead wrong. Don't bother bitching if you aren't willing to take the time to help warn people.
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/americanpinball/?ref=br_rs
Quoted from ForceFlow:A page "like" simply means someone is following the page so they can find it again. It doesn't mean they actually necessarily "like" it.
Of course. I realize that. It also means there's at least 12 people that viewed/liked the page and did not write a review. Actually 13 because I did not "like" the page but wrote a review.
Quoted from guyincognito:Have you seen any good cowboy movies (aka westerns) lately?
I just rented Bone Tomahawk on DVD and it was OK.
Bone Tomahawk was good.
I'll check out the Magnificent Seven reboot. I assume you've seen most of the classics already...
Cowboys vs. Aliens, Wild Wild West etc...
Quoted from flynnibus:In the continued spirit of zidware... We show you... EMPTY CABINETS!!!
That's right folks... We expect you to be thrilled with cabinets and we hope you come see our reveal of our next CABINET at expo!
The best part is...that's Zombie Yeti's work. What did JPOP actually do on these as we see them?
Quoted from PorkChopExpress:Probably a preemptive strike at damage control in an attempt to get pre order money for Houdini.
My thoughts exactly.
Quoted from ForceFlow:If this is even real/possible, I'm not even sure buyers would actually want to receive the game since it's so tainted now. Probably the best thing is to refund everyone before sinking any capital into building anything.
Depending on what they already had for build material this might be the more economical route for them. It is just a very weird situation.
Quoted from 27dnast:I don't think this story is in its final chapter....
What this Jpop guy did was wrong... but if he delivers a legit game, then he rights that wrong. I know there's others with money tied into another game...it looks like we'll have to wait and see.
One thing for sure, this has turned into one of the strangest twists... I think about 0% of pinside could have predicted it!
No it goes way beyond MG. Even if they got delivered there's almost 5 years of rightful animosity and misdeeds here. MG is a small part of the equation. It doesn't end there. RAZA and AIW. To make all those wrongs right you are talking about years and millions of dollars.
American Pinball will not be successful with a pre-pay model. They will have to inventory pinballs. Think about that from a carry cost and cash flow perspective.
Quoted from 27dnast:How much money was really given to Jpop? It wasn't millions... I know some people lost their shirts (16-20k?) but millions?
Let's say he ships MG... then refunds all remaining monies?
Still not going to work. And it was more than $1M to JPOP.
So let's pretend American Pinball makes EVERYONE whole. MG, RAZA, AIW. Fine. Who in their right mind will do a pre-pay model? Even after that? Nobody.
That's why I say it will take millions to do it right. Even if they correct JPOOPS BS. They still need to build and inventory pinballs to sell them. Hence the millions of dollars comment.
Quoted from bounoun:It WILL cost them millions. There is only one option that has the smallest chance of success:
Forget about AIZ/RAZA. Those games will not be made in the near future.
Focus on MG. No "ONLY 26 IN THE WORLD WILL BE MADE" bullshit. Get MG in full production. Every single person who has made a deposit for RAZA/AIW has the option of a full refund or use it for MG. No 3 or 2 credit exchange scam nonsense.
Good idea. Take the hit upfront. If things go well they can revisit RAZA/AIW later. I like this idea.
Quoted from mrgone:I went to American pinball inc Facebook page tonight. There is a post there from someone claiming that American pinball reached out to him stating he would receive his magic girl pinball machine at pinball expo.
Anyone here get contacted by American pinball?
I just looked at it again.
Chris Marquette, it says he works at cointaker.
They reached out to me as well. I don't have any money into JPOP's games. I've been pretty vocal about this tho, obvi. I'm guessing that's why they want to talk. I've responded and asked some pretty pointed, but fair questions. Of course I'll kelp y'all updated once/if we speak further.
Quoted from 27dnast:Perhaps JPOP entered a relationship with this company that initially pays him nothing until all of his debts are settled?
There's two ways of dissecting him: a crook or a person who was so naive that he spun himself into his current position.
He claims the latter, right? At least he did on C2C.
Not that ignorance is an excuse or returns heaps of money to his customers.
If JPOP really *is* distraught over the situation, perhaps he has entered into an arrangement that will attempt to deliver everyone their money and/or product?
The knee jerk reaction is to not give him any benefit because of the massive amounts of money that disappeared - not to mention the misleading statements and promised.
But, this situation is so weird at the moment that it's worth waiting to see what American Pinball has to say in the coming weeks
It's also worth noting that American Pinball had their hand forced. The original announcement was solely about Houdini. Once Pinside connected the dots and went nuts, rightfully so, and began the Facebook and Pinside campaigns was when American Pinball decided to respond and started talking MG.
Im personally worried that American Pinball had zero idea how bad the JPOP situation is. I mean, they wanted to announce Houdini and go to expo without so much as mentioning JPOP's debt and wrongdoings. Yikes.
And for those who chose to attack me for being inciteful, this is precisely why. Idiots.
There is no credit due to American Pinball yet.
Quoted from Cornelius:I am on some incredibly "WHAT IF" proposition.
WHAT IF these pinball machines that people are owed to them get made.
WHAT IF they're actually a lot of fun.
WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF.
I'm actually scared shitless to figure these dudes out.
I just had a pretty in-depth conversation with them. PM Me if you want to discuss
Quoted from frolic:Listen, if by some miracle they made everyone whole, then by all means once that is done they can go be a success with whatever titles they want to release and I doubt they will get too much blow back. They actually would be heroes.
I am confused by this effort to talk to MG owners and not anyone else. That will not rehabilitate John's reputation or set them up for success, leaving the lion's share of burned owners stiffed.
In the end, RAZA and AIW money paid for development of MG. They are all the same thing.
MG is the immediate concern. They are still working on plans for RAZA and AIW. MG was far enough along that they wanted to put it over the finish line.
Quoted from Whysnow:Anyone and i mean anyone that gives them even a penny before every single mg, raza, and aiw customer is made whole is a dbag and a disgrace to the hooby you love.
Don't be a dbag!
Aside from the reality it just won't happen. You really are pretty dumb to support this company in any way, even by giving them your attention. I really think the best course of action if they show up to expo is to not let them talk and just continually ask them Where the money is? They don't even deserve any more patience or time for the claim of any development.
Plain and simple, return all the money that was stolen, pay all the parts people, pay your coder and artists...
Then and only then should they be getting yout attention.
I agree Hilton. I didn't reach out to them. They reached out to me. When I talked to them I asked tough questions. I told them they weren't going to get any money from people until the wrongs are righted. And even then who knows...All I'm saying is they think they have a plan in place that will achieve that.
Quoted from flynnibus:Outlined as what?
They wouldn't give me all the details. Cliff notes tho. Make everyone whole, starting with MG.
Quoted from HighProtein:Flip a coin, if it's made it's a 50/50 shot at these options.
Well the problem then becomes how many more buyers do you have at $16k? There's no way they could sell it for less without refunding whatever the difference would be to the original buyers. Then it becomes a math problem.
Quoted from cooked71:The real question is why would an organisation completely unrelated to Jpop/zidware agree to reimbursing all previous customers/suppliers of Zidware? The debts were incurred by Zidware.
The only possible answer to that is they are doing it in return for John Popaduik's time/salary/intellectual property that will be incurred designing future games for American Pinball. And also to build good will amongst collectors that will mean the Jpop name is not toxic going forward.
Assuming the cost of reimbursing everyone is $1-2million. Is it possible Jpop's intellectual property and the goodwill is worth even remotely that figure? What is a Jpop design worth? How many games must he design before American Pinball has returned their investment in taking over Jpop's debts? 5 games? 10 games?
The whole thing sounds really strange to me.
BINGO and agreed. So strange
Quoted from cooked71:That's it..... comes down to volume. And whether Johns IP is really so revolutionary compared to what's already available, or can be sourced elsewhere. Is his cabinet design so much better or cheaper than the standard cabinet? Is his "Magna save" design so unique that it ads real value to a game compared to one that doesn't use exactly this design?
As far as I can tell, the biggest barrier to entry in pinball manufacturing is the manufacturing. I don't think John had some revolutionary manufacturing methods under wraps, just waiting to be implemented. If he did, I'm sure we would already have seen unboxings of 26 Magic Girls and 200 Raza's.
Design is obviously important, but there are other designers available.
That is what they (AP) said they bring to the table. The manufacturing piece. I asked for specifics and they wouldn't give them other than to say they have that part figured out through "connections". I started digging and they said they wouldn't discuss specifics.
Quoted from Methos:At this point the only path that they could succeed is to make the MG owners whole, and sell the game beyond it's limited run to generate cash. I don't know how else they financially could make it work.
Agreed on that point.
A couple of things worth noting.
AP claims they were fully aware of the depths of the issues with JPOP
JPOP is a consultant, not an employee
Houdini is supposedly not a retheme of MG
Quoted from vdojaq:I don't believe the JPop is just a consultant one bit. How do they justify the making of Magic Girl to satisfy JPop's debt? Out of the kindness of there heart? If they bought the rights to all of this, did JPop even have the right to sell it?
Now there is some real bullshit coming out of this if this is what A.P. told you. Expo is going to be exciting!
Definitely what they told me and adamant about that.
Best guess is there's a legal difference which benefits them to have him as a consultant. And to your first point. Just a guess, but I get the feeling, based on their FB post that they believe JPOP is an amazing designer and will make them money. They weighed the risk/reward and put a huge emphasis on getting JPOP. Do I agree? Nope.
Also. They are bringing on another designer. No idea who.
I do know Tim (Cornelius) did fly to Vegas for the "unveiling". He called me once but hadn't been to the venue yet and reached out to AP with no response. I just tried calling him and got VM.
Quoted from lllvjr:Is it really possible they new nothing about jpop stealing money for games he never made? And could they still know nothing about raza and aiwa... Would be beyond jpop to not tell them stuff. Crazy where this is at right now
Nope, they told me first hand they were well aware of the situation.
Quoted from Strohz:Interesting that Aimtron's website says, "Aimtron currently has direct ownership of a mirror manufacturing facility in Gujarat, India. SIR (Special Investment Region), as well as partnerships with PCB suppliers in Shenzhen, China. We understand the importance of global sourcing options and offer these services at our Client's request." If manufactured overseas, perhaps the BOM could be lowered enough to absorb the costs given the original high prices?
I think their relationship/dependence on Aimtron is a given at this point. I asked about their manufacturing connections and was told they weren't willing to discuss that. I think the dots have already been connected.
Quoted from frolic:Someone had brought up previously that the Houdini trademark hadn't been granted for this game yet. This is very reminiscent of John showing his Kiss at MGC. It does feel 100% John and certainly because he seems to be the only person in the world that thinks doing this is enough.
That was me. It's worth noting you need to provide "evidence of use" before having the rights granted. This means you have to have a product to show the USPTO before they will officially grant the Trademark. So AP HAS to make a product and have something to show to move forward with the TM.
Also, I'm pretty decent at finding IP owners as I own a TM but I couldn't find anything in the little time I searched. I'd imagine AP did their due diligence but clearly much crazier things have happened in this hobby.
Quoted from iceman44:I wonder why they would make a big deal about announcing the Houdini pinball machine, set it up in an empty hotel room in Las Vegas, and then not let anyone see it?
Strange indeed, not Corn's fault.
Def not Corn's fault. He did the best he could. The guy had like a day notice. He managed to get them to show him the game and take a pic, albeit not a very good pic. He did the best he could. Seems like AP is doing the best they can too. They have made many phone calls this week trying to sort this out.
They've done more in a year than JPOP did in 5.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Was there any other "press" at this event?
Were actually any other people in the room besides American Pinball and Tim?
I'm genuinely curious as to what the actual scene was there.
I'll ask
Quoted from zombieyeti:Moment of reflection for all excited about the turn of events in the realm of Magic Girl....
Is American Pinball going to actually make everyone 'whole' to clear the PR path for JPOP for Magic Girl? Preorder folks were only part of the story folks...
*cough cough* As in... will ALL of the people like myself who were convinced to work (and stick around) above and beyond (for little to no pay at times) under the guise that we would receive a machine upon completion as the bonus to offset?
Will we receive our promised games? I've received no call so I guess no.
And THAT is why all should temper their excitement in future JPOP projects... remember they were built on the backs of folks who were also taken for a ride...
To the point: those machines being delivered contain work never fully paid for.
/end reality check
Incoming PM
AP is already talking with the group of Zidware customers that banded together. My guess is either they make the Zidware folks whole and get massive PR and move forward, or they don't and fizzle out.
Quoted from pinlink:I predict this is exactly what is going to happen. More money will need to be sent before your promised games are ready. Really hope no one is that insane.
Maybe for those that weren't fully paid up. For those who were I seriously doubt they will ask for more $. I'd bet on it.
Quoted from o-din:What did they cost, $17000? Maybe to be made whole they will get a Houdini to go along with it.
I don't think that's as far fetched as you might think. Pure speculation
Quoted from vdojaq:Fantasy world.....BUT if it happened, it would shut EVERYONE the hell up!
I'd like that
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Pictures of these pins or we are really wasting time here.
Yeah can someone post pics of that Houdini pin
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:[att=395,89 caption="IMG_0295 (resize
[att=3951071,8921 caption="IMG_0298 (resize
[att=3951071,898317 caption="IMG_029
[att=3951071,898321 caption="IMG_0298 (res
Hilarious coming from the guy who swung by his nuts the longest and help perpetuate this.
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