So a Zombie then. Undead.

Of course it's worrisome. We're on the other side of the globe spending $8-10k on these machines. No argument Haggis builds a beautiful game, but when something goes awry how well do they stand behind their product? And how well do they do it for international buyers? The market would like to know if there's an issue there is some support.

Granted, I don't know every nuance of this particular situation but Haggis really hasn't had much social interaction with the public either since the Centaur reveal last year and then in September when they went to one Aussie trade show with it. I guess I received my email about how I want my Centaur to ship, but that's been about it out of Haggis. Maybe they're just busy building games and finishing the Fathoms like they said, but those were now supposed to be complete.

Hope Haggis comes through on the resolution for the OP.

To answer the question above. I paid mine in full 15 weeks ago in early October and was told at the time that the game would be ready to ship in 12 weeks. Haven't heard a peep since then. Just reporting facts. At the time I knew 12 weeks was a joke and I would be lucky to see my game by May if not later.

that sounds like a serious escalation of the issues you were reporting 8-9 months ago when before you were concerned about where write up of rules, etc and concerned about hangups after leaving the game running for long periods.

Good luck with your game.

As a Bally Licensee the game must have product Liability Insurance, they should be shipping you new power supply and pc a year ago.

all the money has gone, anyone any good have already jumped ship.

At least we didn’t have to see this Wayne.

Maybe the board maker Fast can step up and help?

How long does it take to build a fathom mermaid? A week? 2 weeks? 4 weeks?

Why do they need the full payment 12 weeks before they promise it'll be ready to ship? And why does it always take months longer than they promise? Could a buyer say "NO, I'll pay in full when you send me a picture of it in a box."

Weren't all fathoms supposed to be completed by the end of 2023?
@20 seconds

There's a NIB fathom mermaid on pinside for $8700 now. Wouldn't it be less expensive, less wait & frustration to ask damian to sell your deposit and buy this one that is already in the USA? No $1800 air shipping needed and you get your game NOW.

I'm curious if you really think people on this thread can answer those questions with any level of accuracy or facts? Or are you really just looking to rile folks up?

The last thought though is an interesting one that has been lightly touched on here before... if you haven't paid in full... and only have a $1,000AUD deposit on the line, abandoning that and picking up the game in Tampa would indeed be less money out of your pocket. I'll add in my wild speculation and suggest that Haggis would be hard pressed to hold you liable for payment on the remainder of your game, but if you put a deposit down with a local distributor that may be a little tricker, then I'd also guess you may not get any warranty support as the second buyer of the game... I'd like to think Haggis will support second buyers, but if that second buyer abandoned a pre-order, maybe you'd move down the priority list.

When I first received my machine, I had a similar issue. Flippers would die, and it would appear my machine was dead and I'd have to reboot it. It took a little troubleshooting, but it turned out to be a stuck switch behind the drop targets, it would repeatedly fire a switch hit that would seem to take down the whole system. Seems the stuck switch would fill up the switch/keyboard buffer (I'm guessing here, I don't know how this was designed), and not let anything else happen. Once I found the switch, using the switch test menu (which was harder than it seems because it was a bit flakey in itself), I was able to locate the switch and adjust it so that it stopped spamming the system. Game has worked great since! Not promising it will fix your issue but worth a try.

Haggis has not stepped up and taken care of a first owner, so discussion of warranty for a second owner is moot.

Haggis is requiring payment many months in advance of delivery to fund their operations. I know it may be an unpopular statement but lets be honest here, Haggis is not flush with capital. I would be shocked if they are still around next year.....

We are available to the Haggis team at any time to help with issue escalation.

We have made some general suggestions for ways of narrowing down issues in software, as these issues (with very little detail) sound like something that would need to be addressed in game software.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

We had this issue when I had Fathom.. There is a way to get debug logs. And they are readable, if you open and can read code stack traces.

Very likely the issue is what we reported to Damian, that there can be an error of sorts over the usb cable that connects between the NUC and the FAST cpu board. The code does not handle corruption over USB, and code basically crashes, does not restart. We had purchased higher quality usb cables, and rerouted the cable away from electronics, and ensured the cable was seated very well on both ends. Our random crashes stopped.

If I recall correctly, just plugging in a USB fob will cause the game to write logs to it (or perhaps there was a menu option to tell the game to write to the usb). If you do this you should have either one large log, or one per the last several power cycles. If you want to try and do this, and send me a copy of the logs I can verify if this is the same issue we had..

''Edit''

From Damian in the past times...

"Would it be possible for you to take some logs from the game for me and send them through. If you place a blank USB in the cable inside the coin door while the game is in attract mode, It will save out the current logs (as soon as possible after you noticed a hang up would be great if possible)"

...

And for more fun, this was in the logs for every crash we had:

2023-05-19 07:13:08,625 : WARNING : FAST : Port /dev/ttyUSB3 was blocked for more than 1s. Reseting send queue! If this happens frequently report a bug!
2023-05-19 07:13:08,632 : ERROR : asyncio : Exception in callback Util.raise_exceptions(<Task finishe... start byte')> at /game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py:759
handle: <Handle Util.raise_exceptions(<Task finishe... start byte')> at /game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py:759>
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/lib/python3.6/asyncio/events.py", line 145, in run
self._callback(*self._args)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py", line 767, in raise_exceptions
future.result()
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/base_serial_communicator.py", line 182, in socket_reader
self._parse_msg(resp)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/fast/fast_serial_communicator.py", line 407, in parse_msg
if msg.decode() not in self.ignored_messages:
UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xbf in position 0: invalid start byte
2023-05-19 07:13:08,637 : INFO : Machine : Shutting down...
2023-05-19 07:13:08,653 : WARNING : FAST : Port NET received more messages than were sent! Resetting!
2023-05-19 07:13:08,752 : ERROR : FAST : Stop called on serial connection /dev/ttyUSB1
2023-05-19 07:13:08,752 : ERROR : FAST : Stop called on serial connection /dev/ttyUSB3
2023-05-19 07:13:08,753 : ERROR : FAST : Stop called on serial connection /dev/ttyUSB0
2023-05-19 07:13:08,756 : ERROR : Machine : Runtime Exception
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/machine.py", line 797, in run_loop
raise self._exception['exception']
File "/usr/lib/python3.6/asyncio/events.py", line 145, in run
self._callback(*self._args)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py", line 767, in raise_exceptions
future.result()
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/base_serial_communicator.py", line 182, in socket_reader
self._parse_msg(resp)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/fast/fast_serial_communicator.py", line 407, in parse_msg
if msg.decode() not in self.ignored_messages:
UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xbf in position 0: invalid start byte

---

Either trash on the USB comms link, or some stall/timeout set too low for comms to happen, on fast or nuc side..

---

Reported this many times, even offered to help code a fix .. Maybe sending to FAST folks they could reach to Damian to suggest fixes in this area..

Could you imagine going through ordering a game, waiting 2 years, sending over $8K in cash for a company to sit on for 9 months, paying $1800 in shipping for a total of over $10K for a game... only to have know that it's worth $1300+ less than you paid for it as it arrives New In Box? At least with Stern LE's the burn is quick.

Yeah and according to the owners thread you need to install precision flippers or the bats twist on the shaft. This is not something to be upset about according to Haggis' number 1 jock rider- Punkin

Also good luck if you need tech support apparently.

God, you couldn't win your shit slandering garbage point over there because i never said the things you are making out so you decide to spread it out a bit eh?

... You thought Haymaker LOST the discussion in the owner's thread??? XD.

You think i said he did? Or you just know what i think?

See? You people make any shit up to try and make a point where you can tear someone down.

It doesn't matter about the actual facts or the actual words?

Words fucking matter mate.

And you have me on ignore, so which is it? Ignore or respond?

You are not even capable of deciding what you want, let alone telling other people what i think.

I love lamp.

I've played several stock ones, and they all played amazing w/o installing precision bats. Even if that's the case, bats are super easy to install anyways.

Tech support is terrible across the industry right now btw. And any of the smaller boutique companies are going to require time and patience.. period. Hell, when one of my 80's pins goes down, there's no one to call either lol...

i thought i was number 1 fan
just played a brand new game and it is on point, including flipper buttons and bats.

I'm trying my hardest to be polite and not stinking up the owners thread, but here I can and will speak freely. Contrary to some people's beliefs I don't have any ill will toward Haggis, I just want to call a spade a spade. You made a fool of yourself over there for like the 100th time but its not shocking you believe you came out looking better in that exchange lol.

*multiple people complaining about slipping flippers*

*we don't want to spend that money if we don't have to*

Yeah man, you're absolutely right, you didn't excuse Haggis' issue and shrug off the fact that the fix is spending several hundreds of dollars on Precision Flippers *eye roll* (they are a great product btw). You totally won that lol, even though the only person that agreed with you was like Gold1 who is another one of Damien's dingleberries and the rest of the people completely agreed with me. I won't even get into how bad Flynnibus proceeded to embarrass you further. Like bro, I know you're all into good vibes and livin the way you wanna live and all that, but have some goddamn self awareness once in a while. Sheesh.

A brand new game shouldn't be having these issues. If there is something wrong with the off the shelf pawls or shafts they're using, then too bad, they need to source new ones or come out with their own. Thats on them. Then again, it seems like getting tech support at all is some sort of lottery you have to win, so at what point do we say enough lies, enough bs, if you want to be a pinball company then do the right thing.

Yes my Naked ass is safe, but i knew it would be, the bad news is coming, i know a Distributor who paid in full 7 months ago and no sign of any games. Market if shifting nobody is buying pre ordered overpriced games from people who won't fund their own business.

I am sick of reading this Covid Shit, I am 10 mins from Haggis and we worked everyday during Covid all Legal with work permits, Covid had no effect only excuses.

Next Knapp story??

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Well someone who has been in the Industry for 30 years

There is no Reason to Pay anything more than a Small Deposit until the bloody game is built! If you need money to run your business go get a loan or mortgage your own house instead of using customers interest free loans.

Customers are all un secured creditors with no chairs when the music stops.

I am Glad you got your game but many who have paid in Full haven't.

Maybe we should start a list of who has paid in full and how much and still waiting, I bet it adds up pretty quick.

Well Stern Found a Buyer

JJP Found a Buyer

Heighway Found a Buyer

Why Not Haggis, they already have an Investor Partner

I initially put money down on one of these.... what was it, 3 years ago? Luckily I was able to get out. Now, seeing the state of affairs, I am super glad I did. :/

Those are good points!
I do have $1000 deposit on Centaur.
Honestly don’t know what I’m going to do when asked to pay in full.
I’m maybe 80% chance of just taking the lost walking away.
Would pay in full in a heart beat if I could see a picture of my pin on a shipping container with my name on the box!

Stern did really bring in investors looking to improve the business
JJP found a sugar daddy - very few of those around... maybe wcbrandes wants to come off the bench again
Heighway was more a restructuring and less finding new money. The same investors reworked the deal to salvage what they had in the deal.
API we've always known who is bankrolling the thing and generally 'why'
With Haggis, they've never been transparent with who their investors are or their ambitions. So its even harder to speculate on their fortitude or expectations.

Haggis has a lot going against them for someone outside Oz... that thins the herd even more.

Given the track record, location, and now the current market... that's a lot of headwinds.

The fact that you are saying there's something going on that needs winning shows that you and I have a different concept of conversation.

The plain point is that someone posted they had a problem and i posted one solution to that problem.
Not the only answer, but one.

There has been no other solutions offered, not by you, not by anyone else you mention as being winners of the internet.

I am happy to be a loser in your eyes.

One day you'll figure that out.

lol wut

Exactly.

I'll simplify for you.

The purpose of this forum is not to win arguments, belittle people or tear companies that are trying to improve our hobby to bits for recreation, mate.
The purpose of this forum is for people with a common interest to share ideas, conversation and solutions.

I'll leave you to your arguing and acknowledge that you win what you think you are winning. Lucky you.

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Those statements are not opposing.

*Says this forum "isn't for being a dick to people"

....Immediately is a dick to people.

I re-explained a concept he didn't get in simpler terms. It's a universal practice.

You put any spin on it you want.

Fact is, you are attacking me and i haven't said boo to you, so maybe have a look at your own behavior before calling others names.

And you misquoted me, i didn't say what you said i did.

As a direct competitor it's a disgrace that he's in here slandering others in the first place.

I haven't seen another business do that on pinside, and i'm sure his suppliers take notice.

I can't stop laughing at this lunacy.

Exactly. Its not that I didn't get it, its that it was insane. These guys live in lala land.

I never even mentioned "winning" anything until it was mentioned by others. Its just a figure of speech its not like I'm in any sort of competition lmao. Words matter though

This is almost as embarrassing as when he was on a crusade to talk about how bad of a theme and movie Spinal Tap is, which he hasn't seen, and he kept replying to quotes from the movie as if they were actual responses to him. Its such a fine line between clever and stupid.
Untitled22 (resized).jpg

It say's a lot about people when they attack a person rather than a point.

At it's most basic it say's their points are indefensible.

Give it up Joan of Arc. You "attack" someone in THE post we're laughing at you for.

Well enjoy your mirth, safe in the knowledge that you are ridiculing someone for offering a solution to a technical problem.

It's something you seem proud of, and there are others who enjoy the same sport. I'm sure you think you are making the world a better place.

So saintly and wise. We're the ones twisting words around

Is it the right time to chime in, that you can replace the flippers with the $10 ones from pinballlife or marco as well, and have a good experience ? Also of note, the diameter of the shafts on the haggis flippers are like .5 - 1 mm less than standard (the reason the cawls cant tighten all the way). And also whomever made the flippers for Haggis used glue that disintegrates after a year or so (at least for celts) almost all at the same time all three flippers failed and left a large area of white dust everywhere.. I would not blame Haggis for this, but expect them to change suppliers at some point, and also the cost to individually ship flippers to the US to replace faulty ones is immense, shipping charges and time to do export/import paperwork..

Correct.