(Topic ID: 292168)

Haggis Pinball - 2nd game = Fathom + Fathom 2.0 confirmed

By FalconPunch

6 months ago


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-1
#187 5 months ago

Those crystal clear inserts? Yuk

Seems like a lot yet to do... so we enter our next pre-order phase...

#205 5 months ago
Quoted from rai:

I don’t see the benefit of limiting the extra code to just 250 games.

To try to ensure they sell all 250 games at a premium price

#209 5 months ago
Quoted from surfnrg:

free shipping on Mermaid to SF

BAA/PPS moved to Sparks NV years back.

Unfortunately paying for domestic shipping isn't that much of a discount these days. Plus you'll have to wait for the container to ship vs shipping the game from Oz direct. At least shipping from Europe wasn't a huge premium vs domestic... curious if Oz is radically different. Tell us rotordave

#211 5 months ago

No mention of screenprinted backglass? I assume we'll get the printed plexi like their playfield top.

Curious how they will address the star rollovers in their PF design. Newer designed stars with longer posts?

#249 5 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Shipping a whole container of pins works out pretty cheap (per pin)
Like ... around $100-150 per unit when I last did it (used, unboxed pins)
International shipping is stuffed at the moment though. Huge delays everywhere.
Hopefully it’ll come right in the next year.
rd

What I was getting at was... people were getting TBLs shipped individually for sub $500. As Zach said on his podcast, domestic shipping is $300-$500 typically. If you can get a game via air transport for basically the same price as shipping domestically... shipping games to PPS probably hurts you more than helps you as a buyer. The question was if people could get games from Oz to door here for similar prices as they were getting from EU to door here.

My peeps don't normally deal with Oz shipments, so I have no frame of reference to compare.

#253 5 months ago
Quoted from HookedonPinonics:

If the standard had the new code then people would forgo the 9k version and they would prob be stuck having to build a couple more hundred units which is prob not what they want to do or are capable of doing.

I doubt they fear having too many orders - that's a good thing (and way better than over-estimating orders). I think we should all face the obvious... just like the JJP SE editions, they are games priced to advertise a price point (Wonka SE) or help upsell the higher editions.

If they just put out one edition at $9000 or whatever... it stands on its own to take all the abuse. What is the closest thing to compare it to? Every other game is so different, etc. If you launch a lesser model and a higher model and position them well, you give yourself something to compare to... and upsell people to the higher model driving your ASP higher. And in this case of a small manufacturer, hopefully driving people to drive the economies of scale for that higher model.

If the base model had everything people wanted, no one would buy the higher model. The magic is always making the base model 'just bad enough' to steer people to the higher model.

Based on the comments in the two interviews, they really seem focused on fueling the FOMO engine and trying to sell out their 250 mermaid games. Anything beyond that is gravy... but everything from timelines to scale seem to be driven around 'how to build 250 games'.

They should want to keep building standards as their margins will improve as they refine the same product.

I'd be willing to bet $20 in the future there will be a 2.0 upgrade available for the baseline games... but I wouldn't imagine it would happen until AFTER they've started selling title #3. They don't want to undermine the 'exclusivity' of the limited version.

#258 5 months ago

Gambling on what titles they are eyeing..

#1 Fathom
#2 Centaur
#3 High Speed
#4 Sorcerer
#5 Pinbot

If they would embrace widebody - Count on Paragon
Some of the other titles like Medusa I think are just too ambitious mechanically

#261 5 months ago
Quoted from BallyKISS1978:

JJP definitely is having a hard time turning out games and they are a larger company and still can’t keep up with demand. 250 is not a lot but the last game they made only had 18 produced.

I think we all should consider this a brand new company in this regard

Old games were made using a homebrew/home-made approach to things. "How can I get this done with the stuff I have and within my means". It was a great learning experience and adventure for them I'm sure... but look at everything changing for the next effort.

Majority new Staff
New facilities
New hardware platform
Switching from a scale of 'do it ourselves' to 'contracting and staffing to do things'
Working within external constraints due to existing parts and designs (and big brother Rick)
Working within expectations of a prior title

The last points especially mean there is high scrutiny vs something that was done for 'practicality of getting it done' like they would do for alot of their mechanics or design choices before.

Damien has shown himself to be resourceful, to be an optimist, and to have an attitude that everyone has to love. But this isn't just 'game #2' for them, this is a whole shift in approach, means, expectations, and execution.

Think about why they launched now? Why so early? Is there other market pressure they were trying to beat? I think it was nothing short of getting the money and interest locked in so they can source parts orders and get real world interest measurements so they can feel good amp'ing up their spending.

#263 5 months ago
Quoted from RustyLizard:

3-5 are not Bally titles

You don't say??

Who said their 'classics' line was ONLY bally games? He committed to PPS - who has rights for both.

#270 5 months ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

#1 Fathom
#2 Centaur
#3 Eight Ball Deluxe
#4 Joust
#5 Swords of Fury (LIONMAN Edition)

Everyone says EBD - but the # of them makes me wonder if that's a risker bet. Plus, does pool limit your potential for 2.0 rules?
Joust just seems too risky for all the obvious reasons (cabinet, head to head, etc). If they were going that way, I'd consider Defender first.
SoF is an interesting one... I was tempted to throw out Space Shuttle or Taxi.

Even tho there are more 'rare' titles - I gotta think they want to chase 'favorites' not just 'hard to get' ones too.

#272 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Because he said classic Bally specifically. So I’ll take him at his word he’s going to stick to that 79-83 period of Bally games

Quoted from cooked71:

From Haggis: "Fathom is the first in a series of five titles we will be revisiting, all in the same era as Fathom TM - the golden age of Bally Classics. "
Guess that leaves it a little bit open, but I think they mean Bally.

Quoted from mjalexan:

They did
[quoted image]

Good spot - I was going on the interviews and the discussion. I think 5 is gonna be digging pretty deep if they stick to the -35 era games. Lots of exclusivity, but as much 'desirability'??

I don't see xenon pulling in that kind of demand... nor Viking.. for instance.

Let's hope we get to see them get that far to find out!

#275 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:Idk. Stern made Sharkeys Shootout which is essentially EBD with modes and some tweaks.

I knew you'd find a way for Gary to get paid in all of this

#276 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Yet Viking is among the most valuable of that era. It’s not Fathom or Centaur level valuable, but like you said you start to reach with 5 titles of this era.

'Hard to Get' but still need 'I'm willing to pay to have that title'. I have my doubts on Viking for that. Frontier is another in that category - high priced... but mass appeal as well? Seems iffy.

We could always see them just remake games WITHOUT the 2.0 rules, etc too. This is one of the negatives of this offer to buy all 5 future titles. You do kinda paint yourself into the corner with expectations.

Let's see title #1 flowing... really hoping they get back to their regular vlogs... loved his YT content.

#280 5 months ago

Yeah thx for that.

Not super thrilled by the suggestion of 'help us choose'. This sounds more and more like just a contract lockup and not flushed out plans.

#300 5 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Is it spray painted/screened or a decal?

They mentioned decals in the interviews

#307 5 months ago
Quoted from Jecco74:

Can't wait to pick it up in a couple of months.

If they were to hit full steam on day 1... which is highly unlikely... first container probably wouldn’t land until likely sept. Hope for an xmas present

#322 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

If Haggis starts running late with my deposit in, I'll just cut and paste comments here from the RAZA thread.

Well that depends. Will you start a preorder thread so you can shelter in place from reality?

#385 5 months ago
Quoted from roar:

Just took a look at the majority of the Bally MPU AS-2518-35 games and sorted by average price from Pinside...
A couple of licensed titles at the top of that list... I'd consider Voltan an outlier, not too many people have had a chance to play that one, but you'd think their 5 released would be found in the top 10 of that list.

And when you look at the list - you can see how the alignment of 'single license, desirable, and value' quickly shrinks.

Fathom, Centaur - meet all three
Voltan - 2 of 3, but would people pay 7-9k for one? Probably not
Viking - same..
Medusa - Complex build makes this one a challenge. Great pin but less demand vs the A-list
Kiss, Flash Gordon - great candidates, but need more licensing. These are actually where I think they'd try at least...
Spectrum - desirability kills this one... people aren't going to pay 7k+ for one
EBD - Another great candidate - but installed base is big. Have to really differentiate to make it worth the high price
Frontier - desirability with broad appeal probably kill this one
Embryon - Wide body cabs? Could be reason enough not to
Rolling Stones - lacking desirable, and 3P licensing..

All the ones below it suffer from the same key problem of.. will people pay 7k for one?

I do think it would be interesting if they would for go the 2.0 treatment and see if they could build a cheap skateball or NGS for instance. But unless they get to be a volume manufacturer... the dreams of 'cheap remakes' is probably just dreams.

#429 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

What if they rethemed Flash Gordon into something else? It's still an amazing butt kicking machine. It wouldn't have the same nostalgia factor, but I bet it's way cheaper to pay for a great artist to make a new package than to license Flash Gordon, Sam Jones, Queen music, etc...
I think they'll stick to the original themes and only have to deal with PP licensing.
Maybe if Damian carves out a good niche he could talk Stern into letting him build some classic Sterns. Stern is no doubt watching this and thinking what price point and how many units of a classic Quicksilver they could sell. I'd love it if they did Seawitch 2, ie The Beatles without the license. It's such a great improvement on Seawitch.

I think it would be the opposite... if the market is proven stern can just decide to do some remakes themselves in the rotation. Let someone else set the high price point... then stern just moves on in... slight cheaper but still expensive enough to make it worth it.

#457 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Stern could absolutely do it, it’s just how profitable is it vs running other games. Selling the license is just free money
The only low run games Stern does are the Whoa Nellie and Spiderman home variants.

For each of those they still have to work up all the art, software, BOM, etc. Still a sizable project - just with a major headstart. Running their classic games could be setup similar... once you have the emulation platform setup and a hardware model.. it's just dealing with the mechanics and BOM.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

I’m kinda curious how well a Spike node board translates to some of those SS games. I know they cut some corners (like slings firing together) to get it down to a single main playfield node board on the home game layout.
Edit I looked and not well. They’d have to use two. Not the end of the world, but a pretty big bump up in BOM. They couldn’t even be bothered to do it on Supreme and Heavy Metal, which went for premium dollar.

All just choices - not constraints. It's largely a math exercise, one at which only Stern can ultimately gauge their thresholds. The good news is, the worst part of these games is the high cost mechs - and Stern's volume is the best to address that point.

#458 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

My guess is that's his game number and if true it means a lot of low numbers were given out ahead of time to the pinball elites.

Or... did he buy into the package plan which allows him to hold his number???

people are reading WAYYY too much into this order # stuff.. clearly it's a number from their e-commerce platform - not the game numbers.

#460 5 months ago

So are you saying you bought into the package plan too and haven't been able to secure your number yet?

#465 5 months ago
Quoted from rai:

does anyone know if shipping is included or do we need to pay additional shipping from PPS?

You'll pay to get it from PPS to you

#491 5 months ago
Quoted from pintuck:

It would be good if the new 'modernized' playfield mechs they use on it, like flipper and drop targets and slingshots, could be used on the Bally original as well.
Those Linear mechs are a real bugger.

It would take some adaptations at least. The haggis mechs dont use the same attachment points and work on a different thicknesses playfield.

Flippers everyone already switches out the hardware

#509 5 months ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

I don’t think you are correct hear. In the series of YouTube vids it covers this subject. Just can’t quote the video but it explains the acrylic , wood scenario. It’s good stuff.

Yes, it covers the subject where he discusses how they had to rework the mechs and couldn't just re-use existing designs - because of mounting locations (top side items can't just screw in now) and variances between the PF due to the plastic top. Things that would make it difficult to be a direct replacement for OEM parts.

#512 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

But almost all the mechanics are attached to the bottom of the playfield.

The bottom of the playfield does not live in isolation. That's where the difference comes in... accommodating the 'new neighbors' crowding you because stuff that previously wasn't through-hole.. now is.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Their playfield is the same thickness as a normal playfield. Heck on Celts you had the option of a traditional clear coated wood playfield, hardtop, or their acrylic composite solution.

Is it? Or were both Haggis PFs simply the same net thickness.

#576 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

If the Mermaid edition is doing RGB insert lightning they have to be clear or opaque white, otherwise the color lenses would prevent effective RGB shows

The lenses are not colorless tho - you can see them colored even when the lights are off. The issue I brought up was the exclusion of the original’s opague lenses and instead all lenses are clear. The original uses a mix of clears, painted and opagues. The prototype seems to be using clear everywhere... some colored some not.

This is still my biggest concern with their remake aspect. The clear lenses on games of the period are problematic in making them look good with modern bright leds. The lighting pattern seen in todays video was even worse... with very harsh sharp quick transitions.

Something to look at as we see more of the game in a natural state.

#605 5 months ago
Quoted from Tsskinne:

My original and my CPR had alignment issues, can't believe people settled for that lack of quality control 40 years ago.

Except the point highlighted here wasn't normal production variances... but wacky stuff. Look at these
Screen Shot 2021-04-29 at 4.07.49 PM.png

Like the 4x on the right, or the 4s at the top.

As stated previously when this was highlighted.. it's just a prototype, so hopefully these are things that will be cleaned up. But to try to be dismissive over what happened in 1981 with different buyers, different price points, and different degrees of variance... is just being flat out dismissive instead of looking at the point raised.

There are other smaller cosmetics too.. like their new screens in the apron cause an inbalance in the original apron art.. "Pinball" is now visually off to the side vs the normal balanced state it has in the original.

1 week later
#818 5 months ago
Quoted from Motorcitypinball:I had A feeling this was coming..... I just got a charge on my Credit card for foreign Transaction fee for $92.21.
Does anybody else have extra charges from processor?

Foreign Transaction Fees are the norm - not the exception. Many travel oriented cards have a no FT perk... but for everyone else it's typically 3% (1-3% is the typical range). $92 would be 3% on over $3073

When paying via Credit in foreign currencies expect to - pay the bank's exchange rate and 3% FT fee unless you have a card with specific perks.

#821 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I just checked both my PayPal and the credit card that the charge directly passes through to. I have not been charged that transaction fee.

When paypal does the transaction conversion for you they roll the fee and their conversion margin together in the paypal fee. https://www.paypal.com/en/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees#currency-conversion

You can pay in AU dollars, and then your paypal fee is lower, but your card may charge you a FT fee.

#828 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Here is my PayPal charge: Total $1,500.00 AUD
Here is my Credit Card charge: Total $1,212.46
There are no other associated charges on either of those accounts. Not sure what else I can say.

Expand the item in your paypayl history. You'll see a breakdown of what method you paid in and fees. But since it says AUD at your first glance, I think you paid in AUD vs having paypal do the currency conversion. Then you can look at your CC and see what method it was billed in - it too should show the currency charged, and then convert to USD for you.

There is no universal answer here because there are so many pivots along the way.

12
#900 5 months ago
Quoted from HaggisPinball:

Hi all. Firstly apologies for the silence, I now have time to come up for air (pun intended). People said I was crazy moving into a new factory at the same time as a new pinball release and they were right! I can’t wait to show you what it looks like and will be putting up a quick update vid very soon as well as some deep dives on the technology we are using for the production of Fathom Revisited.

I hope you can get back to the youtube video log - loved watching your celts journey unfold and seeing that for fathom would be awesome. Wishing you luck with phase 2 of the business!

1 week later
#952 5 months ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I was saying the poly vs clearcoated wood physics argument is weak.

It's not weak - it's accurate.

The question is in how much it matters to you at the end and what trade-offs you prefer.

#956 5 months ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

Why? Because you say so? Have any objective proof?

Because I'm an engineer who spent many years learning the science behind it all combined with decades of practical experience in pinball, with access to some of the most diverse collections on this side of the planet.

I have not played a Haggis PF since they switched PF types, but Haggis doesn't live in an alternate universe. And what Haggis is doing isn't that new. Have you played any Interflip games? Like Dragon? Or the Segasa games... Like Cherry Bell, Super Straight, etc? I have. They play different than traditional topcoated wood playfields. Playfields polished to glass also play different. The polycarbonate PF protectors play different than topcoated playfields. Just like anyone at home notices their game plays different after a fresh wax for very similar reasons. Friction and ball english are real things. But unlike a fresh waxed game, these traits don't really settle down with time.

Quoted from MrMikeman:

I'm not a fanboy of the process but saying it sucks without even having tried it is pretty lame.
Wish they could make both types and then have some good players try side by side comparison.

Funny... I don't recall saying it sucks. I said the differences are real.

#965 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Yes playfields are clear coated.

you say this based on?

They've made a point about their coatings to avoid scratches... putting clear on top of that would nullify that.

#969 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

In one of his videos he talks about it. Unless I misunderstood.
I'll do a passive search for it but I'm not going spend a lot of time. Better yet, I'll send Damain an email to confirm.

Yeah in that video it's an either or... so you get the hybrid w/scratch resistant coating, or get hybrid w/clear coated option. As Trey said, the Fathom launch wasn't specific on which offer would be used.

#983 5 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

The problem with top layers not being fully adhered to the playfield wood is the potential for squishy void space between the polymer and the playfield wood.
Holding it down with posts and stuff will not give the same solid result as adhering the full surface of the laminate top layer to the actual playfield. It only takes tiny amounts of distortion of top layer to create a gap that will affect the ball behaviour.

Even with fully floating playfield protectors this really doesn't cause a problem. And this top layer they are using is much more thick and rigid than a playfield protector - it will have it's own shape and its mass will force it down. These factors alone would keep a consistent surface, even if it were floating. The concern would be more if it created ripples or waves for some reason because the material weren't flat.. but that too shouldn't be an issue unless the material gets deformed with heat or something.

I'd rate this a nuthing-burger.

#1005 5 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

The first part does not reflect reality. It is one of the demonstrable downsides to PF protectors, the crap that works its way in between from edges no matter how well fitted.

No - dust/dirt is what people complain about - and that level of movement isn’t going to cause any ball deflection the player needs to worry about. Besides having the hard surface above would avg any variation out anyway. Its a non issue today on the protectors that are purely floating and as thin as possible— it is not going go be a problem on a secured, heavier, more rigid layer

Quoted from razorsedge:

Glad you brought up distortion too, because that is exactly what posts will cause if clamped down onto loose plastic, even if it is 1/8" thick or whatever

Lol... i look forward to you trying to create displacement in acrylic by tightening your posts.

Issues with attachment points being off kilter causing pinching and concerns about being flat are addressed in their pattern/cutting for the plastic layer. And since it will be factory built, any mistakes can be addressed by qa - they don’t have to deal with varying playfield runs, sloppy prior builds etc like an aftermarket product install.

As long as their material is flat and doesn’t bow due to expansion- this is all perfectly manageable by production and should be stable in the customer’s hands.

#1021 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Helpful, but that's for Celts when they offered 3 different versions of the playfield. Fathom is seemingly only getting one option and I don't think it's been clarified if it's more like option 2 or 3 from that video.

So interestingly enough, in Haggis' latest video, the Creative Director states that their 'scratch resistant coating' is in fact a clear coat application... claiming it will play like any other playfield.

This is 'good news', but also slightly contradictory to prior info unless they have yet again changed their process since Celts' ordering. If their scratch resistant coating were a form of 2pac clear... why would they have offered three versions in Celts? It would make option #3 redundant to option #2.

That would explain another reason for lack of options on Fathom (besides simplification and just pushing your lead product) - but its interesting to hear their vaulted coating is possibly a resin on top.

#1025 5 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Yeah I also heard that ....
Seems superfluous to clear coat acrylic?
rd

Not superfluous- as the coating can be for other reasons like surface properties but certainly brings its own new issues.

The idea of spraying the acrylic verse using some form of impregnating or vapor/baked coating sounds unfun from a process/yield point of view.

1 month later
#1284 3 months ago
Quoted from Boof-Ed:

Does this mean Fathom production may be pushed back if you’re expecting that time to receive your celts?
I’m happy to wait an extra month or two as a few purchases lately have been quite expensive.

One might speculate the two projects will overlap...

Celts could still be in the assembly and finishing stages... while Fathom is in the sub-assembly and parts manufacturing stages. Etc.. So fathom 'starting' may be before celts 'finishes'

1 week later
#1373 3 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

If it increases costs to not cut a hole in the front panel before you glue it on, then not add a large coin door with a stack of wiring, lights, coin mechs etc and just put a different decal on it instead then someone is doing something very wrong.

Did you just not see Spooky REMOVE build-to-order from their new product release? Any idea why that was?

#1376 3 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

No i didn't. Do you KNOW why that was?

I gave you the opportunity to find out... you should take it. Spooky tells you directly if you watch their videos.

Quoted from punkin:

Or are you speculating like all the other experts on here who have more idea on how to run their business than the manufacturers. Some people may say that the level of opposition to change is a very good reason for exploring an idea. Not for implementing it, but for considering it.

Throwing stones at people while literally missing the only pin manufacturer doing exactly what you plead for... retreating from it. Classic.

(nevermind haggis also flattening it's options from their last game...)

2 weeks later
#1443 89 days ago

So july is almost over…. Hoping we have a haggis video update soon!

1 week later
#1512 78 days ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

Last video he did explained that Celts orders were priority before starting Fathoms. Also moving, hiring and Corona horses hit. Just go back a page or two for video or google latest vids. It’s all good.

That was over a month ago… and back then he was still forecasting to start fathom in july… but we are past that now. 6 weeks later is worthy of an update

#1517 77 days ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

I want to be surprised when i get it

No the last update I saw stated that it had blown out a month so start August, but in this maddening world could mean anything
I am awaiting my Celts! but hey, first world problems I guess.

Not on their youtube or Facebook page… so not sure which update that is…

#1519 77 days ago
Quoted from roar:

The main content was in their last video they posted for sure... my memory of the video was they didn't say point blank "We will NOT start Fathom until August". It was more implied than a declaration... but I'm old and my memory is lousy, so maybe it did say that

They said their estimate had slipped from start of July to near end of July.. but were still targeting to start Fathom in July.

I always assumed these estimates were far too optimistic, especially once they threw their move in there... but Damien had been very transparent previously so was kinda surprised they had go this far over plan and hadn't given an update.

They still seem more focused on building cabs as their choke point/progress more than anything else

#1557 74 days ago

Well done with the update d! Good to get some confidence where things really are.

Not surprising that learning to crawl is taking longer than expected. The driveway errors are great examples of the curveballs the world loves to throw at you.

Building those interior spaces like that is a pain here as they tend to require fire suppression etc.

Looks like a good number of celts to be finished yet. It is interesting that they do seem to look at the cabs like the long pole… and start there. Cab making is messy and takes a ton of space both in materials, handling and storage. I wager that’s why most outsource that component. I mean look… his cab manufacturer takes up nearly 1/3 of his floor space.

It does look like he is trying to be very close to just in time in terms of components (note the lack of clean shelving for finish goods, lots of racks for partial assemblies, inventory, etc).

The higher end finishes in fathom will really require a lot of restrictions on handling.

Anyone figure how they are moving the semi-finished playfields from upstairs back down to the lower level?

The movement of playfield assemblies and lack of cabinet dollies looks kind of hindering.

I expect the 50/mon target was more an ambition rather than an assessment of their abilities. But with all processes… they will try… they will learn… and they will adapt. They will likely just be far slower then they originally planned and it will take then a much longer period to push that up.

Just like spooky…. They are honest in their intentions and look to keep pushing forward. If’s great progress and they really seem committed to making it a success. I just think their communicated plan was over optimistic… especially with the factory and process build out as part of the todo list before they could get to real production.

50/mon means basically 2-3 games a day. That finish room looked crowded with 2-3 rollers and 7 cabs assembled. And need somewhere to stage those finished goods too. I bet he already wishes he had another 500m2

Exciting times for haggis!!

2 months later
#1657 6 days ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I never said they weren't doing a great job - nor was I critical in any way. I just asked how many pins they are currently making a week and what the new timeline is.
My assumption is that there is *some* work happening since I'm seeing Celt deliveries and Damian is making update videos from the factory.

Just do the napkin math... they claim to have shipped roughly 25+ celts and claim they have another 20+ to go.

I think the bigger shocker is people expect them to 'switch to fathom' to mean 'start shipping games'. I think it's clear they

- Dont stock parts for their full runs up front
- Don't seem to be building sub assemblies for fathom yet
- Don't have finished fathom software to show off
- They love making cabinets first - which we haven't seen any of...
- Doesn't look like they have a ton of space for staging stuff...

So I would expect 'finishing celts' is going to lead to a long stall of 'starting fathom' before there is any fathoms going out the door.

#1661 6 days ago
Quoted from dscapo:

I understand and I hope they do improve and modernize the design. This is a remake however, not a ground up re-design so I wouldn’t expect major issues.

Think of it as an 'adaptation' - It is not possible to do a straight remake because they aren't doing a 100% clone. They are copying the game design and implementing it in an entirely different platform. And since they notably use a different playfield concept, nearly every playfield part needs to be adjusted or reworked.

The good news is most things should not be climbing everest... the problem is there are a lot of small things to do! Given their timeframe they must have had most of these things already worked out. But interations, and actually sourcing for production are a different matter.

Before they were promising to hit the ground running immediately after celts. I think we are just seeing that Haggis' approach to production isn't nearly the same as we have been conditioned to with other vendors. Different spots, different needs and all... but any expectations of games flowing out a week or two after 'fathom production started...' seems like that won't be the way.

#1666 6 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

Do you actually attempt to buy games from new manufacturers or do you just like to share you knowledge and napkin math?

Let me guess.. you're the type that judges people by what they actually put in their pinside profile?

Isn't that cute...

#1671 6 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

I’ll ask one more time politely, do you actually buy new games from new manufacturers or just share your napkin math?

I buy what I want - Have I bought haggis? No, but I also was in the hobby for decades before I bought my first NIB... does that make me any less of part of the community? Or do you measure people by how much they spend in life? Are you checking everyone's checkbook before you let them post? We saw how great your judgement and ability to control yourself was over in the raza thread. You about ready to lash out at people here too for being informed?

Sorry the generalization of 'just listen to what the guy is saying' about how many games they've shipped and have yet to ship is triggering you.

Quoted from kklank:

I think it’s only fair everyone knows don’t you. And maybe you could share your vast direct pinball manufacturing experience? Everyone would love to hear where it all comes from, especially me.
You must’ve worked at Bally back in the day or was it Stern? Pease do tell……

I've worked in contract manufacturing as my family was in the business for decades. Father in law was also a consultant in the business who traveled evaluating and helping companies that were struggling or seeking optimization help. I've also been in product management and product development for decades. I know what it takes to build hardware and software products, get to market, and support them because I've done it. I've also built teams and been an individual contributor. I've also been part of startups, and am close with people I consider successful at that including taking companies from an idea to grossing over a billion a year.

But yeah, tell me again how you willing to throw your money at projects like RAZA makes you qualified over someone else or decide who can say what. The old trope of "only the buyers have skin in the game" is so ridiculous. Go away already.

#1672 6 days ago
Quoted from roar:

And they have (Was it 9?) less people now to do that than they had before... which is understandable... cause pandemic... but add it to your list

The less employees is a bummer... that kind of spending is usually a good indicator of someone's outlook. I just mark that up to the unpredictable forecasting they are facing in this current environment. Hopefully that kind of growth comes back once they get through the initial startup period and are just focusing on cranking out units. Tho his tone did make it sound like they had to rethink what their operating point would be. The good news is, good product usually leads to good demand.. and good demand leads to growth to fill it. I do believe they have the shot at building more demand once their product is out and in people's hands. The spot they are chasing is just too lucrative. I still think they will be successful at it.

#1674 6 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

So the long winded answer is:
1. No. You’ve never bought a new machine from a new pinball manufacturer.
2. No. You’ve never worked for a pinball company.

oh no... you've exposed me! I guess me and 98% of pinside just need go silent and wait for you impressive spenders tell us what we can think and do!! I can't wait to hear your next amazing judgement to pass...

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