Look at the bright side, someone inquired at Cointaker on when they'd get a new Godzilla Premium if they put a deposit today, and they told them early 2024. With Haggis, you can get your game quicker than a brand new Stern!!

Any $1K Medusa now in my area would be absolutely trashed, not sure where you're getting that number at. It's like saying you can get $2K BSD's and $4K whitewaters. Not in todays market...

It's by order date/time, not game number fyi. Some "ticket members" ordered high numbers to match other games, etc.

Credibility going in the shitter on this opinion LMAO . I own both Fathom and Centaur and they are both amazing in their own way and in no way do I feel like they are alike besides the fact they were the best machines to come out of 1981 and share the 1981 era feel...

But I will agree with you on AFM and MM (own both of those also though )

But back on topic... I see ZERO reasons why Haggis couldn't give those that have invested a "good faith" status picture... unless they are not where they should be (and we know this is the actual truth, like it or not). It's more about where are we going from here!! And yes, I am optimistic.. but cautiously optimistic at this point.

Correct me if I'm wrong here- when games went on sale, I thought the deposit would get the game reserved and built, and the final payment would be at delivery/actual shipment.

Not trying to stir any shitpot.. just glancing at the shitpot and wondering.

I mean, you can claim that people are entitled and all that other crap, but you're no better in your extremely defensive position of Haggis and dismissal of anyone that's the least bit concerned. And given the HISTORY of pinball companies taking money and not delivering, there is VERY GOOD reason to be concerned at the level expressed here. And it is CONCERN... NOT PANIC! We (the pinball community) all appear to be funding Haggis and now providing FULL PAYMENT before we even see a picture of more than one (incomplete) game! To not be concerned, to some extent, is just being naive.

Give me a break dude. There's a balance here and trust is a two-way street! If you are so damn sure of Haggis' eminent sucess, then put your money where your mouth is! Let someone sell you their mermaid slot, but you send them $20,000.. and if the game arrives, they'll give you the game and $10K. Shouldn't be an issue since you are so sure of Haggis and dismiss any consideration about finances of the game! But if they don't ship, Haggis keeps your $10K (which shouldn't be a problem for you) and they get to keep the extra $10K because you don't want to be a narcissist who has to ask for his money back!

I believe you.

Let's all remember that Haggis came out super friendly and full of updates... and set a precedent that created the trust! Then, they even sent out HATS and Christmas Ornaments!! Lots of communication, gifts, teasers, and anticipation of what was to be... production in January or very soon after for Fathom. We are almost at MAY. Delays happen, we get that. Silence is NEVER good with a company in this position, in my humble opinion.

This is what we needed and I'm so very happy to see it!

That's actually cheaper than what most paid when you looked at the conversion rate... this won't last long!!

Who's Haggis?

Agree, but you just can't argue with people when they say one title is too much like another and you own both and know that's not the case. It's more of an excuse for not owning both, especially when they are both A titles.

The one I hear the most like this is AFM is too much like MM. Whatever. Someone can look for the similarites, I look for the differences.. and the overall fun I have playing the game.

I'm honestly surprised at the lack of video's on youtube (or elsewhere) with so many people having a Haggis Fathom. It's such a beautiful game worthy of showing off...

When did you send your last payment/wire?

This game is worth every penny they are asking for it.. it's a damn shame they are taking so long though

Does it seem that most of the people getting NIB's ready and delivered are not in the USA or is it just me? I thought that the buyers in the US were represented pretty good.

Can't wait to see more land in the USA... the one at EXPO was amazing IMO.

Whitewater is my biggest regret for pins I sold. I always told myself that I could just replace whatever I wanted later at a similar price... boy was I wrong.

Not very many from what I can tell.. I know cointaker has one and maybe 2 others in the U.S.?

Another Australian that got their Haggis Fathom yet all of the USA orders sit unfilled? Odd. When the sales opened up it was worldwide from what I saw, and of course the USA buyers would be pretty well represented throughout the order numbers.. So why is it that so little machines are actually in the U.S.?

I know someone in the states that has a order in and has sent their cash, and he's being super quiet about it publicly and doesn't want to cause waves.. he only wants his game lol.

I am of the opinion that there are a lots of buyers here doing the same thing, staying low and keeping fingers crossed that they get their game. And I am not saying anything that I believe Haggis will or will not deliver... only what I think is going on by poking around some with buyers or "funders".

I would estimate that there are several dozen people that have sent their cash in advance and there may be almost a quarter of a million dollars (U.S.) advanced before games are shipped. What is shocking to me is the lack of numbers of actual games being seen in the U.S. given the number of buyers here. I know Cointaker has one, and there are a few, but this far along with so much money being sent out, where are all of these games? Even when TBL was held back and coin taker got a batch, we saw a lot more of them when they shipped and those were certainly low numbers.

I can't imagine that there are dozens of US buyers just waiting a half a year for a container to fill up... if you bought this game and have waited this long (and you are a buyer in this hobby of games), the $1500 shipping cost doesn't seem out of line. I've paid $600 to ship a game in the U.S. alone, and when you buy a NIB stern you can get almost $1K in taxes and shipping when you buy an LE.. so all of a sudden all of the Fathom buyers are the hobby cheapskates unwilling to pay for expedited shipping?

It's somewhat funny you mentioned the lotto... because to buyers sending full payment to a company 1/2 a year ahead of the game being ready to ship when the company said the payment would only be needed at the time the game was ready to ship.. it kind of is the lotto. Now I'm not saying people aren't going to get their games or are in fact going to get their games... but the production has been amazingly slow and lots of money going one way without games going the other way.

I've been watching the numbers closely (order numbers especially and who's sent $$), and how it compares historically to other boutique pinball releases, and while people are getting just the bare minimum to keep them happy (no updates and the once every 2 months picture of a new game someone got in Australia), is it really enough? I've owned my own business and slow and low is NEVER good for the long term.

I mean, you could say that your blind defense is... even worse. Yes, I know an exact order number that was paid for in advance and according to Haggis, they are shipping by order number as long as the person pays up front when requested (there could be a swap in order number if one person pays their invoice before the other if invoices are sent to multiple numbers and the latter number pays first). I know of order numbers that are much farther in number that were also paid in full that are sitting unfulfilled. Even if there are a few numbers that don't count (for whatever reason), there are still a significant amount of pre-pays out there. And by pre-pays, I mean machines PAID IN FULL as though the customer is buying a finished machine.

I admire your blind defense, but if we're being honest here Haggis is NOT TRANSPARENT and went from frequent updates to rare updates, to NO UPDATES as time passed. And that coincides with more payments being made in full in time. Not the best pattern, don't you think?

I want Haggis to succeed.. but in order to succeed, people need to receive their NIB paid for pins! At this rate, it will be 3 years for the rest of the Mermaid editions to get built and shipped... especially to the USA.

Kind of funny you ask. Not directly, but a good friend is and I'm buying his old restored Fathom once his Haggis arrives.

Please remember, Haggis was supposed to only gather full payment at the time a persons game was ready to ship. That was how they got off the ground and with all of the other huge failures of companies that were taking payment up front, they convinced people to send them a healthy downpayment under those terms. I am not convinced anyone would have jumped at the time had they been told they will be entering a "send it all and wait for what you get with no updates" situation.

And again, I will say this... this is about transparency and being up front, and nothing else. I want Haggis to succeed and want a Haggis Centaur, Medusa, and whatever else they can give us! But at this point, with how absolutely slow games appear to be rolling (and it IS slow) out I am not convinced this will happen. This is only my opinion and I think I'm being 100% fair here. And like others have mentioned, the number of games in the USA is staggering low at this juncture.

My numbers are speculative but are an educated guess based on real numbers. Haggis hung their hat on transparency and updates early on because they knew that in the past people got burned with boutique pinball runs just like this... and it doesn't take much to do updates. The reason you start hiding, in my humble opinion, is because things aren't going as planned (things are going bad).

But we have a lot of defenders and "things are going good" people here, but it's hard not to notice that most of those are overseas supporters where most of the games have seemed to have been delivered.

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My friends game was just picked up, cash on the box, for $15K. For clarification, I wanted him to open it and play it.. that way I could enjoy it also, but he has a ton of family things going on and I was only trying to help. Lots have changed in his family/life and his interests seem to have gone to other hobbies in the past few years (although he still has his pinball collection and hasn't moved any games). Funny how people were jumping me about it, but that's the internet.

Well, have you seen any HEP games and what they sell for? Someone just listed a BOP for $11K. The is like a high end restored 80's game, but better because you get a second game to play (If the HEP BOP had BOP 2.0, then it would be equivalent). The only way to really understand, if you ask me, is to have an absolute passion for the older titles also, so much that you want the high end restored Fathom/Centaur/Medusa.

Haggis Fathom is a super nice game and I'm guessing that only 1/2 of them are coming into the USA? So 125? Good luck getting one down the road!

I totally understand the moaning for the delays at Haggis and feel the moaning was somewhat justified back then... and I am on the side of Haggis and want them to succeed. I think you're missing the point why there was so much moaning though- Haggis stopped communicating with everyone, normal updates stopped, and things changed all of a sudden.

I think things have been smoothed over now though.

Delete.

Delete.

Not going to feed into the toxic people in this thread.

Is Haggis expecting 100% payment up front while we wait 6-8 months for production (Centaur)? I get that this is just a deposit now.. but that's what everyone thought in round 1... deposit, then full amount when "ready to ship".

Let's break this down here.. and for the record, I'm for Haggis, but lets be real...

Original buyers were told they would NOT pay for the total machine price until it was ready to ship... now, they are required to put what, $8,000 cash up front for 6-9 months or they don't get the game. Those buyers are out a lot of cash that they could have invested at 6% in a cash bond or put towards a credit card bill (or any other bill) that may have higher interest (credit cards are between what, 18%-29% interest). Not everyone is rich and some do have credit card bills out there. Not everyone is cash heavy! Just because they love this hobby and wanted a game and committed to a game doesn't mean it's "too bad for them" for committing to buy.. they expected the game to be here years ago (WHEN THE MARKET WAS HOT BTW) and now they are getting a game delivered during a huge lull in the market. Sure seems like those original buyers from 2 years ago have a reason for being unhappy to me.

Maybe this was not thought through, but I don't think original buyers knew they would have to pay $1800-$2000 to have their game shipped via air because filling a container would be near impossible in a reasonable time... so on top of everything else, they are shelling out a significant amount more than they thought they would.

Plus, Haggis then offered the LE features, something that was to be only offered to those that payed up years ago for the Mermaid, to anyone else that wanted it. Say what you will, but that was BS and in my eyes, it unfairly effected those that has been waiting years for their LE!

Your post seems to overlook the reality/other side of things to me.

I'm curious as to who is buying a $12,000 (delivered) Centaur after all this?

Congrats... I think..

Of course there's a few, always will be. . But the excitement and demand is out of the pinball market and this is even worse than buying a $13K Venom LE.

Hopefully you get your game.

Good looking game, surprising that a NIB can sit in the market for under what you can buy and ship one in for, even in this pinball market. These are absolutely undervalued IMO.

I hate to say this, because I love the Haggis mermaid machine and wish I could find the value in buying a centaur for my collection... but...

Haggis really screwed the pooch when they offered the Mermaid options on the standard pin if you ask me.. what a terrible business decision that was pure greed at a time when they were already on thin ice with their customers that expected they would hold to their word. People waited years to get their mermaids with a ton of customers money sitting with them and they basically said what was special ended up not being special. Not a good look especially when people couldn't even sell their mermaids for what they had in them. These games are beautiful and better than high end restorations, but the game seems tainted as reflected by the current market on them.

I know a few people that got mermaids and with shipping they were all over $10,000. Look at the market now, NIB's sitting for losses on a game that probably had less than a few hundred shipped into the US and Canada. Sure some got games from shipping via boat and paid $9300, how convenient that after everyone waited and had to pay for air shipping that magically they could fill a container for a distributor to sell for at least a thousand cheaper than the customers that stood up and paid to get their games originally.

As an original buyer, you sent Haggis a few thousand as a downpayment and waited years. Then you sent them a total of what, $8,000 out of your account for 9 months or so.. to finally have to ship that game for almost $2K. Only to finally get your product and see Haggis announce that the Mermaid you waited years to get and invested so much money into was not going to have special features (There's people here that would have bought a mermaid but bought a standard instead, lets be real). Then, finally, they had container they could ship on a boat, just in time to soften the market even more.

I can't imagine that Centaur has sold well unfortunately. If people can't sell NIB Mermaids in the mid $8K range now, the pinball community has spoken. I can't imagine being a Mermaid buyer that invested all this only to see your game be worth less than what you paid for it when it arrives NIB.

I know some will defend Haggis no matter what, I expect that, this is just how I feel as a pinball enthusiast that loves this game, no agenda or hate. I know of someone locally that sold his Mermaid early for close to $11K (probably the best decision he's ever made from the looks of it).

You're confusing the intentions of Haggis with what they were actually able to sustain. It's not a lie.. it's another fail on Haggis because it didn't generate the orders but instead alerted the market to their shaky integrity whether they intended it or not... they were just after some quick and dirty money. And I say this being a fan of Haggis btw.

When you compare Mermaid to NIB GNR LE's, FOO LE's, etc., you are missing one HUGE thing.. Fathom is an import boutique machine with on a few hundred made. You should be comparing it to games like TBL and such.. I don't see Fathom all of a sudden jumping in value, it's been flailing for quite some time.

What does this have to do with this game specifically? I don't know anyone that bought a Fathom that wasn't passionate about early 80's Ballys across the board. I'm sure there's some exceptions.

But lets not forget that original buyers put deposits down in April 2021, close to three years ago, with the promise of delivery in late 2021. Had the buyers got their games at that time, they would have had them in a hot pinball market. But with the delay, peoples circumstances change, and the intention of buying and getting a game can easily change in a year and a half as opposed to thinking you're getting a game in 6 months. Plus, with the games trickling in so slow and most of the early games staying overseas for some reason, only the few early U.S. adopters got to enjoy their games early and potentially get their money back out of the game (or make money like most of the market was at that time). Also, with people paying in full to Haggis and investing $8,300 up front for 9 months, then $1800 in shipping+import taxes, etc., at the time the game arrives an owner should be able to do with it what they please.

If you think Haggis owners are all or mostly flippers, you're wrong IMO.

How much were the standards? With the way Mermaids are selling, I can't imagine it would have been worth buying one over just finding a Mermaid already in the U.S.

When you say a long time ago, how long is that?

Could you imagine going through ordering a game, waiting 2 years, sending over $8K in cash for a company to sit on for 9 months, paying $1800 in shipping for a total of over $10K for a game... only to have know that it's worth $1300+ less than you paid for it as it arrives New In Box? At least with Stern LE's the burn is quick.

I've played several stock ones, and they all played amazing w/o installing precision bats. Even if that's the case, bats are super easy to install anyways.

Tech support is terrible across the industry right now btw. And any of the smaller boutique companies are going to require time and patience.. period. Hell, when one of my 80's pins goes down, there's no one to call either lol...

None of this changes the fact that this is indeed an amazing game that is the equivalent of a high end restored game. And now that I think of it, I've known several people that bought a High end restored game that had a lot of problems that had to be worked through. If you can't troubleshoot yourself, then you should probably know someone locally that can help you out (and this applies to EVERY manufacturer you buy, Stern, JJP, or whatever).

This is going to be a grail in anybody's collection that loves early 80's games IMO. Has there been any other manufacturer that has attempted to make early 80's pinball from scratch? I don't think so..

I can absolutely guess who this is (gold1) lol... and he indeed is a Haggis defender and look at that- attacking a Haggis customer and acting like he knows the situation.. all while being quiet about Haggis taking money for almost a year for a game they haven't shipped....

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I have wondered why so many Australians on here aggressively defended Haggis, even attacked anyone who dared be concerned about the pre-pay situation or anything else. Well, there is a Aussie familiarization that has made them comfortable.

Imagine if all the Americans were defending a U.S. company to foreigners "just because" they are located in the states. It would never happen.

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