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Stern, 2012You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider calvin12.
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Quoted from Arcade:Now to everyone posting on Sterns page. Please don't be a smart ass about it. I can understand why those are deleted.
Post a legitimate customer code concern.
There is no excuse in the world for deleting those.
Bad business practice at its worst.
It's the same thing most every company does on social media.
Quoted from hassellcastle:I would NOT say that Iron Man is complete and/or bug free.
The elusive mode Do or Die Multiball has a ridiculous number of drone hits to get that even the most skilled pinball players (Bowen, Keith, Trent, etc) have never even gotten close to achieving this mode. If a mode is implemented in the software and it is completely intangible of achieving unless you have the glass off, then I would say that's a bug.
Purposely having a really hard mode is not a bug or incomplete code.
Quoted from hassellcastle:Sorry I call bullshit on that one. Then what is the point of having it if its beyond what the realm of what a really skilled pinball player can do.
Call bull shit all you want. The fact is it is not a bug, it is not incomplete. It may be stupid, but it's not buggy or incomplete.
Let me guess you also drilled a new post into twd because it drains to much too.
Quoted from Arcade:Not something my company does. And I feel sad for all the ones that do it. That is no way to run a business. Ignoring a question from your customers does nothing but bad for your company.
The word most is important in what I stated.
Quoted from Arcade:So we can agree that Stern is not doing themselves any favors?
Hopefully they will wake up and behave like a business that cares.
They need to jump to side of right and not the side of most.
But I have yet to have another company delete my questions.
I must be the luckiest person on the planet.
Not at all, any smart company will remove things that are negative in a forum that they have control of.
Quoted from flashinstinct:folks let's keep our eyes on the ball here. I need to sell 37 shirts in 6 days to make this possible...so how about you two make nice and buy a shirt
Kind shows how stupid this whole plan was, doesn't it?
Considering Pinside is Sterns #1 marketing tool, I'd say it's Robin with the leverage in this situation.
No it's not
Quoted from Grinder901:Pinside is a website about pinball and is the number one marketing tool for Stern
people here are so full of themselves.
Quoted from Grinder901:I'm not even sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to me since you quoted me?
yes the "we're the biggest and besting thing ever, every pin company should cater to us" attitude that permeates this place.
Quoted from Grinder901:Huh? All I'm saying is a company that makes a half assed, expensive product and refuses to listen to critiques isnt a company worth defending. M
So you joined this site just to critique it? Cool. That's your right and it won't be deleted or cause you to be banned. Unlike with Stern.Bwhahahahahaha!!! Circle jerk, the crying flashinstinct, shitting his pants. Good stuff!!
I've been here for years. No one said they shouldn't listen to their customers, as a matter of fact stern does listen that's why they make stupid licensed stuff. The international op's, which is a major part of their business, demand it. Crying and whining like happens here, isn't going to be taken seriously. I'm not defending Stern, I can't stand most of their games. But to think a whine-fest will change things is silly.
Quoted from 85vett:Come on Calvin. Let's be honest with ourselves here for a min.
What would you do if DP killed the idea of updates to BOP 2.0 and left it where it is today? 6 missing modes and a handful of bugs. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed as I've seen your frustration, while confident it will get done, in those threads. Granted I share those same feeling with BOP 2.0 but why is this any different?
BoP 2 as it stands now is better than 1.0 plus I can still play 1.0. I want more, I expect more. I've told them I want more. But I'm not going to come here to bitch about it. I'm not going to sell 16 shirts to attempt to shame the company (which won't work). Even in the 2.0 threads I've stated they don't owe me or anyone inside info as to whats going on, the pre-orders are not company investments. I've said I'd like more info, but I get the fact they don't have to tell me anything as I am not part of the company.
Quoted from fosaisu:Maybe not, but how would your recommend people convey their dissatisfaction with the coding on recent Stern games? Seems like the options are:
Complain here and keep buying NIB Stern. Clearly won't do anything.
Silently quit buying NIB Stern. May send a message, but leaves it to Stern to figure out the message (Bad theme? Price too high? Support?)
Quit buying NIB Stern and complain here (or elsewhere). Sends the clearest message, and if enough people feel and do likewise, the code will be fixed. Of course if Stern's bread and butter really is operators this wouldn't work, but I have a hunch a good portion of their sales (especially of profitable LEs and Premiums) are to private buyers
Also, you should have started your post with "Don't call it a comeback ..."
No the best option isn't listed. Quit buy unfinished NIB and let Stern know why, they have a phone number and email contact, go to them directly. Tell the distros why you aren't buying them. They buy many games they have some push. someone buying/not buying one game isn't going to matter to stern, they know that the person next in line will just buy it anyway. Stern does not warehouse machines, they make them get the distros money and send them out, at that point stern no longer really cares, they are paid. Now if no one is buying them from the distro's and its known to them why its happening they have some power to get changes done. They are the ones out the $$$ warehousing games.
Quoted from Butch2099:I was talking with the distro that I had already bought 2 NIB games from (1 LE). He was asking me what I thought of WWE, I said I hadn't played it yet and the theme was just ok for me. But if the gameplay & finished code won me over (like Metallica) I might concider it, but not until then.
good when you and other people all do that it will actually get to stern because the distros wont order.
Quoted from KingNine:I sent a letter to my distributor today asking my rep to let either Stern, or the executive in charge of purchases, know that we considered buying a ST or WWE for our location but will not until code updates come along better and they fix their archaic FB practices.
If people say Stern only cares about distributors buying games and not their true market, which is the end user, then I've sent my message. I've been banned from their FB page before. I've been called a names for compalining about it on here in the past. I'm very glad to see how much traction this movement has gained. I can not comprehend the defense of not finishing games and pissing customers off. I feel like the defense of it is almost a communisitc approach. You get what you get and don't throw a fit comrad.
first part of what you did makes sense, the FB demand is stupid and useless.
You are not stern's market stern markets directly to distros, that is their true market. You are the market for the distros.
Quoted from KingNine:If I don't buy from the distributor and tell them why I didn't how is that Stupid?
telling the distro you aren't buying due to bad code at release, smart. They can tell Stern we have people who normally buy bailing because you release unfinished games, due to this we will only be buying half the number we normally do. This can have an effect on Stern. telling them you won't buy because of the facebook policy is not related to the game at all. Nobody would be complaining at all if the FB policy was the same as it is now, if they released fully coded games and the updates were used to fix errors, rather than to complete the games.
Quoted from Dis_Pinballer:When is a good time to get answers from Stern?
They delete our questions on Facebook.
If you call them, we get generic corporate BS statements.
Star Trek has promised features that aren't utilized with software.
The code deployment sucks, and takes years to get a finished product.
We are paying customers, and should be allowed to put a little heat on them at the show.
The T-Shirts are asking a simple question.
We get no communication from Stern, which has caused customers to reach a boiling point.
They need to feel a little uncomfortable.
Corporate bs statement when you call, it's the same exact thing you would get if stern answered on fb. So there is no reason for them to do so
Quoted from flashinstinct:Oh for crying out loud!!!....going to send an email to their legal team
hahahaha good.
Quoted from flashinstinct:Actually no... we are giving Stern time to release Star Trek beta. Seeing that the pinball cards got downloaded 155 times...Don't worry I have a feeling we'll have plenty of stuff to put up after TPF. But thanks for bumping us up again.
In case people still need access to the cards
http://www.mediafire.com/view/fq55w28db58z3o8/pinball-cards-wheresthecode.pdf
its nice to know you are "giving stern time"
Quoted from sulli10:From Bowen.
Interesting selection with "CSI" in the mix. How long has that game been out? It would be cool if it was extensive and drove up the desirability of that table.
More Mustang code? Yes!!!! Mustang should be the model for code updates. Since March of last year there have been 11. I wonder if this would add more features or it is just fixing bugs?
The only way 11 updates should be a model dor development in the future is if its 11 updates of bug fixes and balancing. If they did 11 updates and most were adding things that should have been there at launch that is awful.
Quoted from movingpictures:Haha, Bowen called out this silly "movement" on the latest C2C podcast.
@wheresyourclass
he was right, and until they release a game with full code, he's still right. Stern was already releasing updates before this silliness. They will still do so after it too. I'll be impressed when they ship a complete game. Were everything is coded on initial delivery. The only updates should be for problems found and tweaks for exploits, not major feature adds they couldn't be bothered with implementing prior to release.
Quoted from DarkWizard:I'm roughly 100% sure that without #wheresthecode, you would have never seen #codeiscoming
You may have seen new code, but I guarantee it would not have the public face of #codeiscoming and publicly acknowledging that "codeiscoming" is pretty cool.
Stern has always said code is coming when you asked, this is not different than before except that hastagged it.
Quoted from Arcade:Stern has not actively "asked" Which code improvements we would like in our games in the past.
Stern in the past would just delete any code question. Now they respond and do not insult their customers.
Things are not the same at all.
you can't delete phone calls and asking them when you see them at a show. Ask them live or on the phone and the answer was always we're working on updates.
Quoted from 85vett:Only chance of that happening was with Whoah Nellie and from what I hear it will get some code updates. An EM based game shipping that still needs updates. Now that is funny...
yes, but updates for what, bug fixes or, "we just didn't bother to codes these features"?
Quoted from ectobar:If Stern had more time/employees on hand that might be a possibility, but it's often difficult to understand how your code will be used in the real world. Changes will almost always need to be made.
This would require updates/bug fixes/tweaks, no one has an issue with those. What you are describing is not stuff they just didn't bother to code before release type things.
Quoted from Arcade:I fear you are grasping at straws here.
They don't delete our questions anymore and speak publicly about code.
This is a huge improvement!!!
they ave spoken publicly before, the only different is some questions of FB don't get deleted, which is meaningless. Its not changing how they release games, its not "forcing" them to do updates they weren't going to do. TWD, ST, ACDC etc were all getting updates at some point anyway.
Quoted from Arcade:Avengers?
Stern giving Beta Code to regular players to help find bugs.
Asking questions of us.
And no one was going to "force" them.
Just a change of attitude.
actually after the last updated Stern said there were no plans to update further but if you have ideas for updates email them to let them know.
So basically they are just asking again what is wanted just like a year ago. wow big change.
Quoted from Arcade:Ok. Calvin.
If you can't recognize any change in Sterns behavior, that's fine.
games shipping incomplete still, yup.
games getting near completed a year or more after release still, yup.
Those are really the only things that matter.
Quoted from coz6:This is my concern - heck they seem bi-polar on code. Silent and Angry for months then the pressure builds from the community and we all thank them for communicating, then they go dark again. Look at the pressure - in the new QA for star treck the main question was code code code. This campaign helped but at the end of the day Stern is just who they are. When you ask Gary about code he says something about a creativity block and the process is 2 years -- 2 years… "Soon" I think was defined by Gary Stern as in the future it could be 2 days or 2 years… This is a shut up communication process you might see something but at the end of the day its soon…
which basically translates to "we'll do it when we do it" which is what is was before, and what it is now. the people here who think they are changing business practices are delusional.
Quoted from Arcade:Easy to be a Stern basher isn't it?
Let's give them some encouragement for small steps in the right direction.
that's not bashing, that's stating an undeniable truth. what steps int eh right direction putting out updates? they were already doing that. When they put out a full game, heck when they put out a game nad have it complete a month after release (not talking bug/exploit fixes, referring to gameplay complete) then they are taking a step in the right direction. Stern, williams, bally they used to actually do this. The rom revision were almost always to fix issues, not to add things that were supposed to be there from the start. Stern used to do this, there is no reason they can't now.
Quoted from ectobar:Why are you even in this thread than? There is no shortage of other threads filled with negative idiots you could spend your time in.
because I can.
Quoted from flashinstinct:So they came up with #codeiscoming all on their own? Yeah I'm sure Gary thought that one up between two servings of vodka! Either way... code for ST is out, they've asked input on Avengers code ...they started being less severe and more open on their facebook feed.
I better call Gary now to let him know we see progress instead of putting it on social media and on the interwhat???
Delusional my ass....Robin didn't get a C&D letter because they didn't think we we're making an impact...whether you look at it from a positive or bad standpoint of view.
no, he got a C&D for illegally using Sterns logo. If I started making shirts saying how awesome stern is with their logo, they'd send me a C&D too if I didn't get logo use permission first.
Quoted from Vyzer2:Stern...just acknowledge that when a game is released with incomplete code, you will 100% guarantee that incomplete code and bugs will be completed within xxx amount of time. This is regardless of how the game initially sells. Dont let us all wonder and hope that you will one day get around to it..or not. Biggest gripe and question that I have in deciding whether to purchase a game.
this would actually be a step the the right direction.
Quoted from flashinstinct:They didn't seem to mind until the shirt orders started coming in.
right, when you started to use their logo illegally, they told you to stop
Quoted from Arcade:I find it very funny that even when we offer concrete areas of improvement, all you do is harp on things that are the same.
Dude, there are positive improvements. Just open your eyes.
mine are open, so far same s%&*, different day.
remember Stern does not make a penny from you. the make their money selling to distros. Distros complain and stop buying stern listens. As long as you keep having the distros order incomplete games from stern you are the problem, not the solution.
Quoted from KingNine:You can't exclaim that untill the next game or two comes out. At the moment Arcade is correct. Stern has made improvements by leaps and bounds. Apparently the only thing that will make you happy is a complete bug free game out of the box (which we all want in the end) But what you apparently can't seem to grasp is that Stern has shown improvements in many areas the last month. If we all keep bashing them like you they will stop trying to make improvements and throw up their hands in frustration.
Stern does make many pennies from all of us. We give our money to the distributors who in turn give them to Stern. It's pretty simple economics. Like economics 101. So when we quit buying them from the distributors they quite buying from Stern. See how that works? It takes a generation or two of games to be effective but it works just the same.
At no point did I say anything about bug free, I repeatedly stated a gameplay complete game. Patches to fix bugs/exploits are normal and expected as needed.
Your econ 101 statement, is exactly what I stated before. Stern makes $0 form you, they make cash from distros. You need the distros to complain about missing code costing them sales, they actually deal with stern. If the distros don't having lines of lemmings buying incomplete games they wouldn't be ordering as many, then stern would actually have to address the problems they have. The distros currently don't really care either since you keep buying the half baked crap stern is putting out.
Quoted from dung:Take off the nostalgia glasses. Williams was known to release unfinished games. There are plenty of B/W titles with unused inserts where code was never finished.
The only one I know who released finished code was Gottlieb. Their policy was no updates once it left the factory. This also means no bug or exploit fixes either.
Most games game complete. CC being a glaring exception. There are not "plenty" by B/W games that were delivered with incomplete code, Buggy code, almost all of them, that's what the rom revisions fixed, not adding new modes. Same goes for Stern games of the past. Gottleibs "screw fixing it' is bad but not at least the games were complete. They should have been willing to update to fix bugs too.
Quoted from flashinstinct:Problem is you can't compare B/W games and Stern games....because the main market back then were operators. So at the time noone really ever gave a shit if the games were incomplete. Fast forward 25 years...and times have changed.
If you take the term literally yes you are correct. But if the home market stopped buying from distros then distros wouldn't buy as many from Stern. So technically yes you do give Stern money just indirectly.
But if people buy from early adopters instead of distributors then the distros and Stern get a lost sale. If prices came down and code came more complete out of the box...I'm sure people would buy more games.
you can totally compare BW (and old stern) to stern now. Route ops didn't care if they were incomplete, yet they were generally complete. not bug free, but complete.
your second paragraph is nothing but repeating what I said. Distros make the difference. Stop buying incomplete games from them, they stop buying from stern, stern would have to fix the problems or die.
Quoted from flashinstinct:Yes...agreed...but the home market compared to 25 years ago......major difference now. Back then you had maybe 5% of the population buying games for their homes.....now it's more like 30% (and growing) of the market. Manufacturers have to adapt to that model.
and they used to sell complete games, now they don't. they've actually regressed. again, don't equate compete to bug/exploit free.
Quoted from coz6:I don't know why you all are out to get Calvin -
because I'm not crapping the rainbows they want and telling them they are some unstoppable force in pinball manufacturing. Sorry, I'm a realist.
Quoted from KingNine:Calvin seems to keep saying "nothing has changed". He is wrong. He seems to proclaim "same ol' Stern" for manufacturing complete code games when no game has come out since they appear to have adopted a new fresher approach.
as of now, it has not changed. Hopefully it will it the future. Its not like code complaints are new, they could have changed this 5 years ago. The complaints were still there and there were just as many. They said in the past they would get updates out and it took forever, its still that way now. When (if) they actually change. I'll be happy about that, until then nothing is different.
Quoted from Eskaybee:I don't know why people want to push to have completed code(with minor issues) upon game release. Look at TF or Avengers - they are perfect examples of games with completed code(or near complete depending on whose standards); and look at their rule set now or even one year after release. Not nearly as deep or involving as games that are getting updates ever 6 mos or longer like ST, xmen, TRON, etc...
Do you honestly think ACDC could be what it is today if they gave Lyman a 6 mos head start on the game prior to its production and said that's all it gets? Hell no! He perfected those rules over time.
Bottom line is a lot of modern day sterns are much more involving and deeper than yesterday's pins and a lot of that is attributed to gaining community and tourny player feedback then completing the code. So do you want basic generic out of the box code (ala TF or Avengers); or do you want in depth crazy creative code like TRON, ST, ACDC? Pick your battles and stick to your guns, make a wise pinball purchase and buy it when you feel the game is complete - don't buy with high expectations of code updates to follow.
the game is planned form the start, sure they can't see every balancing option that might be needed. That stuff can be fixed in an update. But at the start, if they have inserts, they clearly have a plan to use them, have them working when the game is released. They have a plan to have X number of modes, actually have them when the game is released. The game is limited to the shots and inserts at production, they know what they have planned for those things, try coding them before release.
Quoted from KingNine:I understand being skeptical and appreciate it. Just glad you see the current set of events and that it can make you more optimistic for the future. I think we will know a lot more by December as by then I'd guess we will see two machines come out.
so this sea change at stern just happened now because of this thread and a game released in December, ~2 games from now, will have full code? Based on that thinking a 9 month start to finish should have a complete game? If so, then there has been no reason at all for the year plus delays after release for code to approach completion. Games seem to be in about that development range now.
Quoted from Arcade:Hey, look Calvin.
Someone just crapped another rainbow.
yup they will "pass them along" they also asked a year ago for ideas on code for avengers, went really far. finish a game, then release it. Then when issues are found, patch them.
Quoted from Aurich:Totally agree. I think people want "complete code" they way they say they want original themes. It sounds good, but it's not what they're really looking for.
I think what people want are games that ship without obvious broken or missing parts, like a wizard mode insert that does nothing.
But they also want updates later. They like the excitement of it, the way it makes a game feel fresh again, the way that feedback and experience with the game really out and being played can influence some new thinking.
And I think that's okay. Games are deeper, more complicated, players are better, home use is more prevalent, tournaments are bigger. Code can evolve to meet those needs.
Just ship something that doesn't feel broken first. That sounds fair.
This sounds good, but the initial release should be complete. If they decide to rewrite a bunch of stuff after release that's fine, but don't ship incomplete stuff. You mention feedback helps them improve it, that's the bug fixes and tweaks to balance issues found in the wild, I don't think anyone is against that, that's expected and the same thing everyone (outside gottleib) did.
Quoted from 85vett:Is it not a fact that Stern has shown recognition of this thread/movement?
Is it not a fact that Stern has been more transparent the last couple of months with updates than they have been for the last couple of years?
Their are facts in both directions. It's just that the facts being presented to us are facts of history. We are talking about the current and future thus why so many of us are feeling positive that some change is being made. Is it not OK for us to feel happy that we feel as though we've made an impact on the industry? This hobby is supposed to be fun so I really don't understand all the hostitily and bitterness towards people that are causing other no harm. It's not like Stern would ever say, "You see that code thread on Pinside? Yup... OK, we're done making games now because they hurt our feelings." Companies pay a lot of money for the free feedback we are handing out here. If we keep level heads and praise them when they should be praised and be negative with them when we should then we can only help them grow a stronger customer base.
Acknowledge sure.
More transparent no, they always said they were working on code, same as they are saying now. You are talking about facts of the future?? Those don't exist- yet.
Quoted from 85vett:Is it not a fact that Stern has shown recognition of this thread/movement?
Is it not a fact that Stern has been more transparent the last couple of months with updates than they have been for the last couple of years?
Their are facts in both directions. It's just that the facts being presented to us are facts of history. We are talking about the current and future thus why so many of us are feeling positive that some change is being made. Is it not OK for us to feel happy that we feel as though we've made an impact on the industry? This hobby is supposed to be fun so I really don't understand all the hostitily and bitterness towards people that are causing other no harm. It's not like Stern would ever say, "You see that code thread on Pinside? Yup... OK, we're done making games now because they hurt our feelings." Companies pay a lot of money for the free feedback we are handing out here. If we keep level heads and praise them when they should be praised and be negative with them when we should then we can only help them grow a stronger customer base.
But I don't,I can put anyplace I like.
I'm not concerned, I actually did live there for a while but that was a long time ago, still have rental property there.
Quoted from jawjaw:If a good game takes years to develop the code and 3 new games are developed every year, it's obvious that coding games is difficult and some games are not going to get "finished".
This is an unacceptable end though.
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