Damn people. How fast did you think the movement would work and be effective. It's not like I Dream of Jeannie. Barbara Eden doesn't just fold her arms together and blink the new code onto your machine in one day. Just how fast do you think they can crank out new code once they changed and decided to start working more diligently on it? This will take months not hours.

jeannie-02.jpg

this would actually be a step the the right direction.

Take off the nostalgia glasses. Williams was known to release unfinished games. There are plenty of B/W titles with unused inserts where code was never finished.

The only one I know who released finished code was Gottlieb. Their policy was no updates once it left the factory. This also means no bug or exploit fixes either.

right, when you started to use their logo illegally, they told you to stop

Let not digress past the code issue anymore.

You're splitting hairs and not contributing anything useful to the thread so why don't you do yourself a favor and back away from the keyboard. You've made your point in detail, not everyone has to agree with you. This thread is all about a balanced message to Stern. It's okay to point out their faults, but it's also ok to acknowledge positive steps that they've taken.

I find it very funny that even when we offer concrete areas of improvement, all you do is harp on things that are the same.
Dude, there are positive improvements. Just open your eyes.

mine are open, so far same s%&*, different day.
remember Stern does not make a penny from you. the make their money selling to distros. Distros complain and stop buying stern listens. As long as you keep having the distros order incomplete games from stern you are the problem, not the solution.

You can't exclaim that untill the next game or two comes out. At the moment Arcade is correct. Stern has made improvements by leaps and bounds. Apparently the only thing that will make you happy is a complete bug free game out of the box (which we all want in the end) But what you apparently can't seem to grasp is that Stern has shown improvements in many areas the last month. If we all keep bashing them like you they will stop trying to make improvements and throw up their hands in frustration.

Stern does make many pennies from all of us. We give our money to the distributors who in turn give them to Stern. It's pretty simple economics. Like economics 101. So when we quit buying them from the distributors they quite buying from Stern. See how that works? It takes a generation or two of games to be effective but it works just the same.

At no point did I say anything about bug free, I repeatedly stated a gameplay complete game. Patches to fix bugs/exploits are normal and expected as needed.
Your econ 101 statement, is exactly what I stated before. Stern makes $0 form you, they make cash from distros. You need the distros to complain about missing code costing them sales, they actually deal with stern. If the distros don't having lines of lemmings buying incomplete games they wouldn't be ordering as many, then stern would actually have to address the problems they have. The distros currently don't really care either since you keep buying the half baked crap stern is putting out.

go for it, I don't care.

Hey! I got to thumbs up a Calvin post.

Most games game complete. CC being a glaring exception. There are not "plenty" by B/W games that were delivered with incomplete code, Buggy code, almost all of them, that's what the rom revisions fixed, not adding new modes. Same goes for Stern games of the past. Gottleibs "screw fixing it' is bad but not at least the games were complete. They should have been willing to update to fix bugs too.

Operators are still their main market.

you can totally compare BW (and old stern) to stern now. Route ops didn't care if they were incomplete, yet they were generally complete. not bug free, but complete.
your second paragraph is nothing but repeating what I said. Distros make the difference. Stop buying incomplete games from them, they stop buying from stern, stern would have to fix the problems or die.

I don't know why you all are out to get Calvin - His points are good to me. The track record can not be ignored. Heck even Robin when he met with Stern in person spoke about code complaints on his trip to last years expo if I am remembering history correct. Sterns response - WWE, TWD (very basic code to start.) While I hope this is the start of a change history says don't hide your heads in the sand keep them accountable. Also to the point of operators I know one specifically say that on Metallica by the time they got code implemented nobody would even play the game, they felt they already knew it, $500,000 for mystery and 3 major modes. He had to move it to a new location to get the thing earning again - these are all huge losses to the community. If an operator won't buy in the future and we won't we all loose, let stern know were not happy. The new SPIKE system should change the way coding is done make it easy so we don't have to wait for a 2 year cycle, if the SPIKE system fails to do this push them until they get it right.

and they used to sell complete games, now they don't. they've actually regressed. again, don't equate compete to bug/exploit free.

because I'm not crapping the rainbows they want and telling them they are some unstoppable force in pinball manufacturing. Sorry, I'm a realist.

More good news from Stern on their facebook page, they acknowledged and thanked us for posting comments regarding the Avengers code ideas and said they will pass them along.

None the less congrats to Flashinstinct! You did accomplish your goal and you were heard!!! Hopefully we never have to complain again about code!!!! I for one will let the past be just that - I will judge them on the future - lets hope they get the message and really listen.

Stern's a smart company, with smart and passionate people working there. I've been as vocal as anyone about the code frustrations, I think it's a really legit gripe. And I truly believe that they get it.

The key IMHO is that we should be responding to positive change with positive energy. It's fine to be a skeptic, I'm all about trust but verify. But it's going to take time to adjust how things go. The next game is probably not going to ship magically more finished than the last ones. But maybe the game after that will.

In the meantime if they're at least open about working on things, and asking for input and a little patience that sounds like what we really wanted in the first place.

Nobody is denying the history. It is the reason we are in this thread in the first place. The point is because of this movement Stern has made some positive changes. Calvin seems to keep saying "nothing has changed". He is wrong. He seems to proclaim "same ol' Stern" for manufacturing complete code games when no game has come out since they appear to have adopted a new fresher approach. After the next game or two comes out and it is the "same ol' same ol'" then Calvin can parade that banner around and I'll say "your right" to him. But Stern hasn't been given the opportunity to do so yet. They've made obvious changes for the better in the last month and we are acknowledging it. Simple as that

Glad to hear it. You posted as I was replying to your other post.

Incomplete code has been going on for a long time. If people haven't stopped buying NIB games by now I don't see it ever happening.

I'm not sure how people buying from early adopters after code is complete is going to change anything. As soon as early adopters sell their game, they usually just go buy the next, latest, greatest pin, and the cycle starts over again.

As far as all the speculation as to what percentage of sales goes to the home market, no one really knows the answer to that.

This is where I disagree - This is where the past haunts me. They have not said anything publicly about changing the production cycle (2 years for complete code - to my knowledge) They have simply stated, that they are working on code. This is not the first time a huge campaign was launched about code and they have posted on FB were working on it, or please give us suggestions about this feature or that when specifically pushed on a game.

The first glimmer of a New Stern I saw was on Star Trek when the chase lights were not working after an update they fixed the issues ASAP and said hey sorry about that we know about it and will have a fix tomorrow.

I for one will stay optimistic, but realistic.

as of now, it has not changed. Hopefully it will it the future. Its not like code complaints are new, they could have changed this 5 years ago. The complaints were still there and there were just as many. They said in the past they would get updates out and it took forever, its still that way now. When (if) they actually change. I'll be happy about that, until then nothing is different.

Down voted because that's bs.
They CAN release completed code... they choose not to because of Time-To-$K.

I agree that bugfixes can't be in the completed code on release; but the features and glaring bugs can be.

Robin got a C&D because Stern felt the movement graphics were "too similar" to their company logo.
Stern probably hasn't sent another C&D because they now have no legal ground (trademark infringement) to stand on. True; maybe they were hopeful the movement would get shutdown - but the reality is the internet is a big beast once it get started. Cat won't go back in the bag.

Passing it along and doing something about it are two different things.

Looking forward to the next TWD update.

I don't know why people want to push to have completed code(with minor issues) upon game release. Look at TF or avengers - they are perfect examples of games with completed code(or near complete depending on whose standards); and look at their rule set now or even one year after release. Not nearly as deep or involving as games that are getting updates ever 6 mos or longer like ST, xmen, TRON, etc...

Do you honestly think ACDC could be what it is today if they gave Lyman a 6 mos head start on the game prior to its production and said that's all it gets? Hell no! He perfected those rules over time.

Bottom line is a lot of modern day sterns are much more involving and deeper than yesterday's pins and a lot of that is attributed to gaining community and tourny player feedback then completing the code. So do you want basic generic out of the box code (ala TF or Avengers); or do you want in depth crazy creative code like TRON, ST, ACDC? Pick your battles and stick to your guns, make a wise pinball purchase and buy it when you feel the game is complete - don't buy with high expectations of code updates to follow.

I gave you a thumbs up for being happy about it

the game is planned form the start, sure they can't see every balancing option that might be needed. That stuff can be fixed in an update. But at the start, if they have inserts, they clearly have a plan to use them, have them working when the game is released. They have a plan to have X number of modes, actually have them when the game is released. The game is limited to the shots and inserts at production, they know what they have planned for those things, try coding them before release.

I understand being skeptical and appreciate it. Just glad you see the current set of events and that it can make you more optimistic for the future. I think we will know a lot more by December as by then I'd guess we will see two machines come out.

I think people would love updated better code. What the big gripe is that the code is glaringly bad upfront. TWD seemed like it was thrown together at the last second as it was ready to be boxed up. Decent fun playable code is what people want out of the box.

so this sea change at stern just happened now because of this thread and a game released in December, ~2 games from now, will have full code? Based on that thinking a 9 month start to finish should have a complete game? If so, then there has been no reason at all for the year plus delays after release for code to approach completion. Games seem to be in about that development range now.

Totally agree. I think people want "complete code" they way they say they want original themes. It sounds good, but it's not what they're really looking for.

I think what people want are games that ship without obvious broken or missing parts, like a wizard mode insert that does nothing.

But they also want updates later. They like the excitement of it, the way it makes a game feel fresh again, the way that feedback and experience with the game really out and being played can influence some new thinking.

And I think that's okay. Games are deeper, more complicated, players are better, home use is more prevalent, tournaments are bigger. Code can evolve to meet those needs.

Just ship something that doesn't feel broken first. That sounds fair.

Hey, look Calvin.
Someone just crapped another rainbow.

yup they will "pass them along" they also asked a year ago for ideas on code for avengers, went really far. finish a game, then release it. Then when issues are found, patch them.

How well a game is supported code wise by Stern appears to be tied directly to a games sales numbers. That's bad business in my opinion. If you are going to charge people $5k-$8k for a pinball machine of all things then guarantee a deep and complete ruleset regardless of a games sale numbers.

Also, the games that are not supported as well code wise appear to be those that lack a licensed themes original voices and music. Stern should not make a game where they cannot get the themes original voices, sound, music, etc. If I'm going to drop $5k-$8k on a licensed theme pinball machine I want to feel like I'm in the themes world while playing the game...random voice actors that don't sound like the themes characters don't do that. Sound a like actors that match an original characters voice are rare in pinball and the only one that stands out is the voice actor in POTC which does a spot on Johnny Depp.

A big reason why LOTR, MET, ACDC, TSPP and ST are so well liked is because they feature the actual sounds from the license. Take that away and none of those games wouldn't have sold nearly as well or be ranked where they are today.

Yup. I would never buy a pin with fake actor voices. I don't care how good the game or theme is. The experience is crap once the phonies come on.

This sounds good, but the initial release should be complete. If they decide to rewrite a bunch of stuff after release that's fine, but don't ship incomplete stuff. You mention feedback helps them improve it, that's the bug fixes and tweaks to balance issues found in the wild, I don't think anyone is against that, that's expected and the same thing everyone (outside gottleib) did.

Every time I read one of your post, I can't help but do it in the voice of Debbie Downer from Saturday Night Live. I even like to put the Wah, Wahhh trumpet effect at the end.

which ones?

I gave every one of Calvins posts a thumbs up.
Why? Because his opinion is based on facts.Hes entitled to his opinion regardless if ANYONE agrees with it.And he actually used Sterns history with games(software)as examples for his position.

Calvin:next time someone calls you a Debbie Downer or a hater,please respond with "i know you are,so what am I."

This way we can all act like 4 year olds.

And the rest of us are just making stuff up?
What we are saying are facts as well.
It's all in how you perceive it.
I recognize everyone of Calvin's listed facts.
He seems to refuse to do the same.