Happens all the time. Probably covered under parody law.

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well great... now there's another shirt i need to buy

....(no... not the cock one)

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The logic of this whole thing is weird. Can't even begin to understand why someone would think it's a good idea to screw around with someone's logo in an effort to insult them and then be surprised they took action to stop it from being used for profit. I think the point's been made, where does it become just being mean? All the people at stern work as hard at their jobs as you do at yours, they deal with corporate rules and decisions same as you do. Why go so far out of your way to insult them and make them feel bad about what they do? You can bet they're working on everything they can with the resources they have, it's the same in any business. It's just gone a bit far IMHO.

Satire. Perfectly legal form of free expression in the US, as far as I know....

Short of convincing Teespring themselves to refrain from making the shirts, there's nothing Stern can do to stop it. With only a few shirts and no profit involved there's no incentive for them to take it to court unless they want to turn it into a libel suit, which will not be easy on their end. Ultimately your goal of getting Stern to notice has already been accomplished.

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And another person perpetuates the issue. The question is how soon will he bitch about the code not being done?

Re: shirts at TPF: problem is they can't stop people from making their own. Well, they could... by releasing some updates. Parody is a legit fair use claim

For those of who who are throwing mud at flashinstinct because Stern suddenly decided to drop a copyright claim, in case you haven't noticed there have been multiple positive posters praising Stern on games they did well on. The lighthearted suggestive nature of these posts does not come across as inflammatory. What's inflammatory is your attitude towards this person who has taken time out of his daily schedule to make our voice known to Stern, and other manufacturers, that there is a serious issue at hand. At the prices you and I pay for these luxury machines, I can't see why anyone would oppose some civilized protest. Stern is clearly paying attention; they took action once this movement had potential to reach an even larger audience at TPF. Now granted his logo was clearly heavily derivative, it now appears to be enough of a standalone work to warrant another run of shirts. And there's nothing Stern can do to stop it now.

Wow, so much angst over some well-deserved ribbing directed at Stern. We still need the where's the code shirts, but they also need a "U MAD BRO?" on them as well.

Hello Stern Pinball!
Since you are clearly reading Pinside, how about releasing some positive information to your customers about the machines we love. We would love to support you in the future, but you are making any kind of optimism or trust very hard with your "end users concerns" don't seem to matter approach.
We actually care about your product believe it or not.

well.... most of your products
cough cough... mustang... cough...

Says the guy with a south park. Lol

I remember Fat Wreck Chords getting sued by snickers for the punkers t shirt they released.
Sad but true.

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It's for sale

This is bullshit. Satire and parody are well known and obvious form of fair use. This is the type of bs that made me not want to "join" pinside in the first place. Only came over here after RGP became a ghost town 2 years ago.

Which moderator did this? And I thought the Dutch disliked Nazi's.
To be consistent the same mod needs to remove the images of the other parody logo t-shirts.

I agree. So let's see. What the OP ejected from the thread for this or banned?
Are the Pinside mods trying to stop this behavior at the expense of free speech?

I have *ZERO* issues with the mods protecting pinside due to copyright infringement; HOWEVER, They better not be saying this thread cannot continue because it makes stern look bad.

Would the mods please be clear what the issues are here?
Using Stern-like logos; I get that.
Is there something else? Can the mods post Stern's C&D?

New link to new T-shirt design since Flashinstinct got booted from his own thread.

http://teespring.com/new-wheresthecode

His new design for shirts is still on Facebook and can not be taken down.
Not to mention there is no reason to. His edited version got rid of the logo like features and uses a public font.
Maybe there was a good reason for it. But I have to call ridiculous.

I'll tell you what I don't want - for Stern to put out a pinball machine with code that they think is finished and then never have another code release. After 1000's of people have tested the machine out in the field and at home and given their feedback and ideas in forums like these I still want the opportunity for Stern to incorporate this in a code release.

So, rather than demand Stern release games with finished code, I demand they put some extra budget and priority into doing subsequent timely code releases after they get their feedback from customers.

And thank god for people like Lyman Sheats, who rumour has it does this stuff in his own time so that we get awesome machines.

Lyman is the bomb.
Wish we could clone him. lol

Gladly.

We told the OP that Stern had raised a copyright infringement notification to Pinside.
In accordance with Pinside rules, once the copyright infringement was properly submitted, Robin considered the request and then decided to remove the links to the t-shirts and logo.

The OP was notified about the reason, which was the logo. He then continued to create different logos that were not much different.

He was then directly told by the Mod Team to stop.

He did not listen, and continued anyway. So he was ejected from his own thread.

He was not ejected for free speech issues. He was ejected because he ignored a directive from the mod staff.

We have been discussing the issue with him, and he will be returning to his own thread.

But when the Mod Staff makes a request regarding a post, please follow it. If you disagree, please feel free to start a moderator feedback thread and we'll be happy to discuss our decision.

We work as a Moderator Staff. There are no lone wolves. We discuss these issues and then we reach an agreement and then act as a team.

I hope this clears the air a bit.

Marcus

So, you are saying he can make a logo with a dot matrix pattern or something like that that is totally different from the Stern logo and it would likely be ok on Pinside?

Something like this should be ok on a t-shirt with free speech and all:

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If totally different from the Stern logo, to the point that nobody would confuse it with Stern's logo, then we, the Pinside Moderator Staff, will not interfere. Some of us may even join in the discussion.

Pinside has consistently told copyright holders that we would not be restricting the right of our members to freely express themselves.

As long as the discussions are civil and without personal attacks, we will actually encourage the discourse.

Marcus

Thanks for the clarification and balanced response.

Thanks. Much appreciated.
I'm concerned the new "public domain" logo might be considered so similar to past art. Case in point:
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It'd probably put us right back into a C&D from Stern.
What if we just use STERN in standard block font without using the same colors as they do.

Ah ha.
Did not know it was Pinside itself that received the letter.
Thanks for clearing that up Marcus.

Sad thing is Stern could stop the madness at any point with some simple communication skills.
No need to even have let it get this far. Especially since we know for sure they are reading this.

Stern doesn't care... they know someone will buy their crap regardless of code.
I think they are trying to use any excuse to censor the vocal group here... so we just need to be careful about doing anything logo-wise that would give them that power again.

They do. The copyright infringement notification to Pinside is a clear indication.

I think this message is delivered. Let's hope it gave Stern a strong enough incentive to change their practice.

They can't say anything, if they were to give a date when the code would be released and it didn't happen that would open them up to a class action lawsuit.
As long as they are silent or give vague answers like soon or we are working on it or delete the questions and remain silent they can continue to kick the can down the road.
As long as the "Shut up and take my money crowd" keeps buying they have no incentive to ever finish these games.

The problem is we violated the first rule of Unfinished Code Club is: you do not talk about Unfinished Code Club. The second rule of Unfinished Code Club is: you DO NOT talk about Unfinished Code Club!

Stern was merely enforcing the rules. Judging from some of the responses in this thread, there are a lot of happy members of this club that want flash to stop.

I hope you are right - but have little expectation that are doing anything more than protecting their IP. I don't see them changing behaviors; unless we get in their face about it.

We need to go out in force... and attend their factory tour with these shirts at the Chicago Expo. I wouldn't put it past them though to not admit us in their tour.

It's clear that they feel they can do whatever they hell they want and we'll just sit by and patiently wait forever for code fixes that aren't even in the pipeline.

Stern has little legal grounds to force Pinside to do anything about an image posted in a public forum, especially since Pinside is (I believe) not even in the U.S. As such I'm a bit baffled that Robin and the mods took action considering what else goes on around here. At this point I'm actually more disturbed by this than Stern's inability to deliver code.

Although Robin is safely off of US soil, the Pinside server secretly resides in North America.

And as such Robin is legally untouchable for this incident. Considering Pinside is Sterns #1 marketing tool, I'd say it's Robin with the leverage in this situation.

Don't you get it?

Pinside is an Ally to Stern. They are also an ally to anyone and anything that promotes, expands and increase the world of pinball.

Stern is the flagship company... the driving force... the big boss...

Pinside would never choose to be at odds with Stern... afterall... they put out lots of games... and never later than they said they would. Because they don't say they would. They just do.

Stern may have some work to do with code, but Stern also HAS done most of the heavy lifting in this hobby for the last 15 years. When they send a letter asking for a favor... people are going to do it. Especially the staff of the biggest pinball forum in the world.

Stern is not a bunch of bad-guys, and neither is Robin and the pinside mod staff. We all ought to be united in pushing pinball forward and not worried about making a social media hash-tag about small potatoes.

Careful with the Nazi references there. Not cool. At all.

We have made a very clear decision here, which is to follow the legal requests to take down (links to) copyright infringing stuff that was being offered for sale.

Note that we have not closed this thread because protest and fee speech is pretty important for a discussion forum. But this is also a privately owned website and I simply cannot allow people breaking the law and putting the site (and me personally) at risk.

Please try and be respectful to Pinside staff and try to understand that Pinside is not pirate country.

Possibly. Look, I'm not a lawyer. And even if it is, do I want to go there? Keep in mind what this site is about. Being at odds with the biggest manufacturer of pinball machines is not something I am longing for.

Well, yes. Your posts is pretty much what I was trying to say. Well put, Jared.

Look, I've talked to a lot of the people at Stern and trust me, I've been pretty critical in those talks about a lot of things. I've told them how I hate the LE model and that I am worried about the unfinished code situation. I've told them I disliked the new power button location. Etc. Etc. They were very interested in my criticism and we had great discussions.

In response to the takedown request for the infringing t-shirt design I have had a back and forth with some folks at Stern and I've pressed them that freedom of speech (and the right to protest) is very important, especially in a forum.

Me personally, I think this protest has gotten to a point where it might start to be doing more harm than good. The message has come across, maybe we need to give it some time now. However, if you feel differently, then please know that I have no intent whatsoever to close this thread down IF -and only if- it is kept respectful and not looking to find the boundaries of the law or putting Pinside in a position where it simply does not want to be in.

Thank you.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic.

The bottom line with this whole code situation is a double edge sword.
Pro: Stern cranks out multiple titles in one year.
Con: Stern cranks out multiple titles in one year.
The bottom line is the programmers are all tided up coding the next machine coming up as soon as the last title is finished.
Look at a pin like Wheel Of Fortune. Great fun game, but the code WILL NEVER get updated. Its left in this world all on its incomplete own.
As someone else mentioned already, Stern made their money on that old title already. Why bother spending money on something they will never make money on again. Maybe charge a reasonable fee for code updates? ($10 or less)
I love Stern pinball (and all the vendors making pins today, thank goodness we have so many in the year 2015), (Thank you Jersey Jack and Ben Heck for cranking out those code updates) but personally, I don't think Stern even care about threads like this and the only way that they will ever catch up is to stop production of new machines for a bit and catch up on the code. And for the reasons already mentioned, that's not going to happen.
We love you Gary Stern, but please, please, please, considering taking on more staff for this one single purpose. Maybe have a public contest to see who can write the best code for title X, Y and Z. It would be quicker for your team to review code than to write it.

Thanks Robin. I feel you're always level headed and even handed regarding pinball opinions expressed here on Pinside.

My 2 cents, which are worth nothing.

Fair use in Parody and Satire laws exist (in the US) specifically to protect people who want to use corporate property in EXACTLY the way the OP has done in this situation. Using a company logo to spell out a specific criticism in a humorous way is protected, and has been decided legal hundreds of times in court cases all the way to the supreme court.

Consider this (From Threadless):
When considering submitting a design, you should ask yourself the following questions regarding your design and if it would qualify as a parody:

What is the original work?
What is the message of the original work – what does it stand for?
Does my design criticize or ridicule the message of the original work?

If the new work is funny but in a way that makes no commentary on the message of the original work, it will probably not be considered a parody. The perception of some type of perceived social commentary or criticism is the key.

So, in my opinion - the OP's shirt is the CLASSIC definition of parody and would be deemed legal 100% of the time. Stern being able to shut it down with a single letter is a textbook reason why these laws exist to protect parody in the first place.

Having said all of that, of course this is Robin's site, and he can do whatever he wants to do. If he doesn't feel like engaging Stern in a battle of freedoms or US law (which, IMO, Stern would be foolhardy to bring in the first place as its a losing proposition from the onset), that is his prerogative. He can pick to fight the battles he wishes, and this is one he doesn't wish to engage in. Cool by me.

To the OP, I URGE you to revert back to the previous design, and sell your shirts for charity as you previously intended. Just don't do it through Pinside, as that avenue is closed.

Your freedom to voice your opinion in the way you've decided is protected, and to me, it sounds like Threadless will support you in this goal.

For what it's worth, I'm a Stern customer, and really don't have an issue with their code. Not my fight.

Personally I'd be more concerned with addressing their legitimate grievances.

At the point where the shirts are still being sold despite Stern actually fixing the problem. This hasn't happened, so the campaign remains legitimate.

Considering Pinside is Sterns #1 marketing tool, I'd say it's Robin with the leverage in this situation.

No it's not

Ordered one

Tom,

Nice post. I have a lot of Stern machines and I have a huge issue with the incomplete code. The only thing we know is it is safe to buy a game chided by Lyman. All other games are hit or miss. Currently I bought WWELE and I'm not sure it is going to get coded properly. This is my own dumb fault, but it will be my last purchase from Stern if things are not improved. Gary should listen to the customer as this movement it's only a start or the spark that can light the fire

How about at the next speech that Gary is giving people keep interrupting him when he is talking. Hopefully, he says, "Can I finish?" then you say, "It doesn't seem you have been able to since Lord of the Rings!" *rimshot*

I want to know what shows Gary will be at this year, is there any schedule of this? Stern themselves usually is represented by Marco at most shows it seems(At least here in CO that seems to be the case last few years)?

TPF at 7pm on Friday. Kind of odd to have such a big speaker on Friday during dinner time but that is when it is for this show.

I have no issues with the MODs taking the links down if they were concerned even though I also think it would have been fine. I'm not a lawyer though so take that with a grain of salt.

What I do find a little odd is the statement that this may have gone to far and could be causing more harm than good after some talks with Stern. Are we saying that they are not going to finish code in spite? If so, that will REALLY help them with sales. If what is being said is they are going to lose money on sales then I also find that ridiculous. Nobody is saying to not buy Sterns. All anyone is saying is to wait until the code is finished or at least perceived as finished in the buyers eyes. The sales still happen assuming code is done. Just means it takes longer to happen depending on how bad the code is at launch.

One thought though - Maybe we shouldn't just be targeting Stern. There are other MFG's out there now with this issue.

P.S. - A way to make your own T-shirt if so desired. http://www.amazon.com/Avery-Personal-Creations-Iron-On-Transfers/dp/B0000C0CIR

Yes, I know Ritchie is not programming the code. He has promised the code will be finished, and Star Trek will be the ONLY pin he has in his house. That is enough for me to purchase this great pin.

Since you seem interested in concerning yourself with my choices, I will insert myself into yours. You will be kicking yourself for selling your game while I'm playing it with finished code.

Answer:

I won't be.