TheFamilyStalker is back! Anyway I raised my price to $6500. Nine sold, only one left.

You're truly an ASSet to the hobby.

I've been reading all these threads and I want to say first off that I hope everyone that is investing money in this project gets what they are hoping for in the end, and that Rick and his partner make out like bandits in the profit department so they can continue making more titles, and there will effectively be a third thriving pinball manufacturer.

But... I am somewhat of a student of pinball history in this area and I have to say you guys are acting just about as childish as the last group of folks that climbed on this same bandwagon. I was at the seminar where Rick showed the pictures of his prototype and what I saw didn't stand out as "Wow, look at all the quality he has built into that 8 thousand dollar pinball machine". I saw major cost cutting and some questionable design decisions which would not seem to be in the best interests of the future owners of that machine. And let's be honest, as of the time of me writing this post you guys are still begging for static pictures of the thing and nobody has even asked to see a video of it running on that fancy new boardset.

What Wayne tried to do was kind of crazy, but at least he was just going to remake copies of the original machine using like parts. From a functional standpoint MMR really will be a Chicago Gaming machine more than it will be a WMS product. And their last pinball product didn't even come with a coin door folks because it wasn't even built to commercial standards to operate it. If I remember my seminars they were shooting for the lofty MSRP of $1700 on that game, and most folks that played it (and looked at the magic under the hood) felt it was overpriced even at that. So while it's great that they have now hit the lottery on this project I'm having trouble understanding how their factory is now worthy of churning out $8k pinball machines?

Before about 3 people become super-sleuths and check my signature to discover the awful secret that I already own a MM let me just save you the trouble and admit it. I fielded a lot of hate and grief over my concerns on TPF remake and we all know how that turned out. I see some of the same folks jumping on this new bandwagon. And again, I honestly do hope this turns out well for those involved, but you guys *really* might want to concern yourselves a little more with technical specifications and proof of reliability on this new game, and less with which one of you beaned Rick or Jack in the head first with a rubberbanded wad of cash to be first in line. Or what color tint the legs will be, or where the LE plaque will be mounted...

And as several people have pointed out in this thread, it is far to early to begin hero-worshipping anyone involved.

Kyle,

First time on pinside?

I do not think worshiping is appropriate. Some people wanted to express gratitude towards Rick and PPS for their efforts in the early stages of development. Does Rick and PPS not deserve thanks for bringing this to the development stage? Yes we do not have a finished product yet, but we have someone with a capitalistic American attitude that will bring a classic pinball back from the grave. At the same time employing hardworking Americans in the process. Sounds like the American Dream to me.

Thanks for your concern! BUT again the game will look play and feel like the original or Roger will not sign off on it.
If Roger doesn't sign off on it the game will not be made...

Agreed Lloyd, sometimes we just can't play nice around here. The fact that a great pinball machine is recreated should be celebrated, if he makes lot's of money he's welcomed to it. MM was always the title hidden away in some elite dude's game room, now we may see it on route! Ha what a joy, now CC and just about every other B/W title can be made in the future....it's all upside for pinside.

Viper001 you are entitled to your opinion. I find it interesting that hundreds of people at the show saw the same pics you saw and promptly ordered a machine. Hundreds were sold right at the show. Just saying.
If the machine is not up to snuff you can just cancel your order.

You guys are getting your panties in a bunch about all this MMr stuff, but the question that no one seems to be asking is: who is printing the manual?????

I mean, are we getting a real offset printed manual like the original, or just some desktop published knock off ?

Why is Rick avoiding any mention of this when we are less that one year from delivery?

Doesnt matter
it's printed on gold paper bro...

Thank you

I recommend that Quad/Graphics print the manual! Might be too small of a run though.

I heard they were putting the cover of the manual on the last page for efficiency purposes.

Manual (or Manuel if you prefer) is so 1990s. Its 20 year old technology guys! A PDF version is so much easier to maintain...

I hope there is a difference between the MMRLE and MMRS manuals. Maybe omit some pages from the MMRS version so only the MMRLE version is worth anything.

I used to have a friend, Leon Krueger, who was in the Quad Graphics family. I think he is back in WI again now.

My bet is there are enough differences in gameplay and look/feel that there will be legit people on both sides. Some will prefer the remake, some will prefer the original. There will be some that take any crticism of the remake as a mortal insult and will defend it to the death on the forums And then there will be the refakers LOL .

My friend owns a BIG printing facility. He will give a fantastic deal on printing the manuals. (just PM me for the info)

I hear that the LE manual will be hand written by Chuck Norris... Sorry to all you guys who only got a standard
image-630.jpg

Heared that all the regular MMr buyers are going to get one of his famous Roundhouse Kicks .... just saying

chuck.jpg

Email him or call and ask.

I don't know he's avoiding it, or hasn't seen it because of having to wade through all the other posts.

LTG : )

Hundreds of people still presumably have money sitting with Wayne for the past 7 years waiting for the same product from him. So "mass acceptance" in this hobby really don't hold a lot of clout.

Really? You aren't counting PowerPoint as "video" are you because that is all that was shown in his announcement seminar. If he presented in another seminar I missed it and am happy to be corrected. I heard he spoke at the LTG show but I ended up getting back so late I didn't go in that one.

Agreed. And I agree, the decision could not be in better hands. The only issue is this thing has a LOT of momentum at this point, so as it stands there are literally million$ of reasons why this project pretty much has to go forward at this point, one way or another.

Wow. I think this is the first time ever that something has gone over Loyd's head!

Wouldn't be the first. I'm hell before coffee.

LTG : )

Definitely with you on a macro basis on that one Vid.

But splitting hairs, my personal guess would be about 30-35 years from now till Pinball Doomsday vs. 20.

That's based on IF the recent PS demographic poll is accurate, and the majority of Pinsiders (& general pin) population is in fact a bit younger than us Geezers think: between 33 & 47 years old:

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/are-you-a-boomer-gen-y-or-gen-x-what-generation-drives-the-hobby

If I'm wrong, the room-temperature prune juice is on me.

I take mine with a shot of Jack.

Moved to Planetary Pinball Sub Forum.

Wow, I have been out of town and Pinside for a while and seeing this news on the back end. Guess I will wade in and take my shots. I have read many of the threads and the banter back and forth on lots of issues, and there are some common themes. Basically mostly opinion and speculation at this point, as no one knows what will pan out in the end. A couple of observations:

The initial excitement and exuberance of people buying 1000 games within a matter of hours is unprecedented. People falling over themselves and salivating in a frenzy to pay $9000 (with tax + shipping) for a reproduced game, though, is staggering for me to think about. The market is what it is, though, and supply will meet demand. With the high end LEs and WOZ and this, it seems that $8000 is the new base price. With this success, I can almost guarantee AFM is next with a similar tag. The vast majority of enthusiasts are still priced out, and I doubt many $9K pristine machines are going to be routed, so pinball socialism to allow access to MM probably still will not pan out very well.

The argument between "players" and "collectors" will rage on, and speculation on demand and price for original versus remakes. Only time will tell, but I see both sides and it will be interesting to see. While many say publicly they don't care about price, that they are in it for the playing and fun, almost everyone cares some about the price at some gut level. Even if you do not intend to ever sell, you still have a mental figure in your head what it is worth in an emergency, etc, and anyone would naturally be disappointed if that number fell (not saying it has fallen, can't tell by what's still for sale). Imagine the riots if MMR new price goes down to $4000 to unload a glut of leftover machines when demand dies down in a couple of years. Or if Stern remade a bunch of Tron LEs for $6000 after seeing this.

There seems to be acrimony and an "eat crow" attitude toward original MM owners in some threads, and immediate criticism of a remake by MM owners as well. There has been some snobbery, and some jealousy, and this is expected. I have a friend who has been wanting MM for years and when I told him of the remake, his first remarks were gleeful that justice has been done and all those MM owners were going to see their values fall to the "real world," etc. Then I mentioned that MB may be next, which he owns. He suddenly had a look of panic and said he better sell his before the price fell. I think we all would find ourselves acting like the opposite crowd more than we like to think.

Finally, I think the hype and the intense hunting for that good deal MM over the years has created a messiah-like culture and anticipation of the game, especially those who have not played it. Some of the posts are over the top with drooling and giddiness; I am waiting for one asking if you can have sex with the game or legal to be buried in its cabinet. It is a great game, but I think a lot of people will have a letdown once they actually have that object of their long hunt in their home for a while, and wonder why they wanted it so badly and paid so much for it. Anticipation is often better than the reality. There will be another . . .

Not exactly. Most won't pay tax if they're shipping, and most paying tax don't have to pay shipping. It's more like $8,250.

I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden..

I'm one of those guys that says they don't care about the value of their collection. In fact I hope it goes down considerably and if MMrs were closing out at 4K in a year or two, that's fine with me (and I'm in for one). Now why would I make such a seemingly indefensible statement? Because ever since the great "pinflation" my collection has suffered from stagnation. I am NOT going to sell my minty games for the stupid money they will bring because I would never BUY the same game at that price. My personal threshold for a top price I'll ever pay for a pinball (a box to bang a ball bearing around in) has been reached and exceeded. My priorities won't allow me to pay $12k for a pinball machine.

Now if I could only get 1/2 market value for my collector quality TZ or HUO TSPP or LOTR, that would mean I could BUY a machine in similar condition for the same money. All of a sudden I'm back trading out and trading up pins every 4 or 6 months like the good old days when HUOs were 3K.

Before anyone starts asking to buy my HUO games for 3K, offer yours up for that price first.

Worse things could happen than a flood of good product at low profit margin. The consumers win in that scenario.

You can have sex on it. You can be buried in it. You can have sex in it ( if you are small and very flexible ) you can be buried on it ( if you are dead ).

LTG : )
Disclaimer : Some states require embalming and a vault. For sex or burial, I forget which.

I keep pounding the thumbs up button and it seems to only count 1 total. Consider my contribution to be a minimum 1543 additional thumbs..

I take my Jack with a shot of Coke.

Sorry for veering off topic, but I just got this thing in the mail from the California Board of Equalization - somehow they got hold of my Metallica shipping documents and now want me to pay "Use Tax" on it.

Anyone else ever have to deal with this sort of thing?

Busted!

What?? Never even HEARD of that!

Is the mail in "broken" english ?, do they refer to you as "my friend", and do you get a God Bless! at the end of the mail?

Yup. I pay 10% tax on every pin I buy, whether it is shipped from the states or from Toronto.

And I had to shovel snow yesterday. 10 cm worth. I think thats equal to a pig's hoof in your system of measurement

Ah, life in Canuckistan ...

I wish...then I could ignore it!

Eh...just found this courtesy of Dr. Google... http://www.boe.ca.gov/taxprograms/usetax/

California's sales tax generally applies to the sale of merchandise, including vehicles, in the state. California's use tax applies to the use, storage, or other consumption of those same kinds of items in the state. Generally, if sales tax would apply when you buy physical merchandise in California, use tax applies when you make a similar purchase without tax from a business located outside the state. For example, you would owe use tax when:

You purchase something from a mail order catalog, the Internet, an online auction, television shopping network, etc. located outside California and you don't pay tax to that retailer.
You withdraw taxable merchandise from your business's resale inventory and use it for your personal or business use.
You purchase vehicles, vessels, mobile homes, and aircraft from sellers who do not hold seller's permits.

I think a lot of states have this now, and expect you to report use tax on stuff, say if you bought from Amazon (yeah ok)

The real question is how did they find out about Rare Heros purchase so cleverly, I would point the finger to whoever the distributor was. The state might have picked up on it from a BOL from the shipper too, then contacted it's origin for an invoice. Scary stuff.

Who did you buy it from?

Considering plenty of original MM's are currently on route, are still one of the best earners on location, and at a street value well north of $8k, I don't think an $8k price tag causes anything but a positive effect for more on location.

I might even think some operators would replace many of the originals on route with the NIB version, selling the original to cover 100% of the cost, then the public gets to play the shiny new version, and the operator has something that's less troublesome to maintain, and a bump in income to boot.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/usetax.htm#page=Overview

Looks like the credit card companies are turning people over.....

Could you please thank Rick by correcting the spelling error in the title?

guys ... I'm not really going to get 'into it' on this discussion, but here are a few late night comments:

- We always said we would not be directly building machines but we always said we will do what we can to enable the building of them, the timing last year when we started on this was right.
- Prices on MM's was staying very high and getting higher, so it was even more right to get try to get the pieces together to do this now. We had been trying to get a formula to move on something since acquiring the license, but we had other priorities (parts, etc).
- The license requires that the game look and play like original - no 'remake' will be identical - especially internally, whether it be ROHS, or chips not available, or just plain bad design that you have the opportunity to fix, so I think any remake would not have satisfied the 'exactness' requirement of some - so this decision got a little easier to do it the way we are doing it.
- We really do want to see these games in the hands of everyone that previously could not find one or buy one at a 'reasonable' price. So, for MM the price could have been higher given the astronomical prices that the game gets, but we just felt that this was the right price for the game, as well as obviously there is a bunch of startup and development cost - primarily with the electronics.
- We're just trying to do what we do, to get parts and enable games that leverage the license that we have, which we WMS/BLY created alot (not all) of the greatest games, and just want to continue and get the MM done.
- I'm sure there will be a few twists and turns along the way, so I'm sure some will delight in this, but it's part of getting things done, we're not really worried about that ... and if the project were to fall apart for any reason, we are doing what we can do to keep the customer getting stuck with the tab.
- Making repro 'stuff' is not simple, I think if anyone that has not tried to do so would, you would be amazed by the complexity of trying to get things right, even with prints, samples, etc. Progress would never happen if mistakes were not made ...
- Anyways, it's a really unique time that pinball has seen the resurgence that it has, so it's really nice to see some positive comments ..

BINGO! Drama queens.

Amen!

It must have something to do with the shipper. I contacted my distrib and he had never heard of this before.