We have tobins and storage facility.

We cleaned and waxed the playfield before we used our GBLE. We do it on every pinball machine. We currently have the shaker turned off so we will see if it gets any worse. Pinball machines are in a climate controlled environment.

I always thought the goal of routing the insert pockets were to route them a little shallower than the raw insert height. Then the inserts can be pushed and glued in so they sit on the step in the routing, which would fully support the insert and prevent the inserts from sinking at all. After the insert installation, I thought the whole playfield was then drum sanded to finish the excess insert heights down to the playfield surface making everything flush and ready for screen printing of the art. Why would you route the insert holes extra deep and risk the inserts sinking? Is this what is happening? Are the routed inserts pockets excessively deep and the glue unable to hold the insert from sinking?

If this is what's happening, that's unbelievably sloppy.

I'm just wondering here. Has anyone looked under their playfield to see if there is an excess gap in the routing? Heck, even if there is, what if it's supposed to be there because someone in production thought it would be a good idea to fill that gap with glue? I guess this gets back to how are playfields supposed to be made in regards to this routing depth? Maybe Vid or someone else in the industry knows? I just think if I was making playfields I'd want the insert fully supported by the step in the routing, but what do I know?

Just as a waypoint, my 2007 SM has ghosting on a number of inserts. I'm not sure when it happened, but this pin was originally in a house by a lake with rather big temperature swings (throughout the year, and even throughout the day).

That said, the other games that were at that same house for approximately the same amount of time have no ghosting.

The integrity of the clear around the inserts on our SM seems solid, aside from the visual ghosting.

Not psyched about this ghosting out of the box crap. It's keeping me from buying a NIB MET. I'm not selling SM, it stays in the home collection. MET would go to my location, and I'd most likely swap it out at some point and don't need that additional hit on the flipside.

The fact that Stern knowingly sent out playfields with a spelling mistake leads me to think they will do nothing here. Such a shame that this pin is being defined by a quality control issue and Stern is leaving buyers/owners in the dark. Not good mates. Not good at all.

Yeah, originally they said the spelling mistake was only on "prototype" playfields and that it would be corrected in production games. Then they ship them out anyway, spelling mistake and all- with a crappy "prototype" Slimer mechanism that you were lucky to see it register 3/10 times. Now the ghosting issue. Overall, total joke for a company who has been manufacturing pinball machines for 30+ years.

Cancelling our Premium order due to this mess...

Glad to see people speaking with there wallet something Stern probably is not ready for.

Good ghosting update in another thread.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hey-stern-are-you-serious/page/44#post-3279184

I just couldn't resist:

yodawg_(resized).jpg

So if dimpling is a feature that ultimately equalizes over time, why can't they press my playfield in the factory and pre-dimple it? Why do I have to play 10000 balls to finally get a playfield that looks smooth? They have that big goltlieb press in the factory. We live 2016, send spaceships to Mars and agree with dimples?

Ghostbusters pro 500 plays

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Wow bad. What were your build date / playfield dates?

Where can I find them ?

What is the last picture showing?

Absolutely nothing.

Not nothing... With The lights you can se a lot of small dots on the plastic insert. It wasnt like that

Maybe there really are ghosts

This problem is definitely going to haunt them

Playfield date is stamped on the edge, although mine has a second number hand written that could be a date 1 week earlier. Build date is on the back of the machine.

Any TWD ghosting?

No. Buy with confidence. Best pin ever.

I've had mine almost 2 years, zero issues.

The TWD in question was supposedly built in July of 2016. Maybe June?

I think know everyone with a 2 year old Stern has a ghostfree PF

This is just horrible. What seems to be the date range when the bad playfields were made? My Met playfield says "April 15, 2016". There's no ghosting so far, but I probably don't have more than 300 plays on it yet. Am I screwed?

Fresh out of the box LE:

ghost_busted_(resized).jpg
ghost_busted_box_(resized).jpg

Shades of CV!

Yeah, except CV was only $1700 on closeout because nobody on earth wanted them.

Maybe I will wait and pick it up on close out .

Might not be a bad idea for Stern.

Put all the returned playfields into cabs and then sell them as-is for $3500

Looks like the CC has cracked all along the right side of the insert(s) also , have the inserts moved Vid? There was a picture of a GB playfield with a note at the Stern factory saying "popped insert, strip playfield"

Yes, both those inserts are moving

Man, I'm sorry vid .

Then you already know the answer. Wait it out or buy an older TWD

The close out idea is a good one. Take the defects and sell em at cost or lower

But then that would require acknowledgment of a huge F up and that ain't happenin

Just ask Trump and Clinton errr i mean Gary

Canceled my two pros after 5 months of waiting

Turned out to be the best $1700 I ever spent though... If I ever sell the thing

Given the clear is only separating at the inserts, I think it is safe to assume they are either moving, or there is a contaminant that is keeping the clear from sticking....or both. But just my educated guess, I am going to assume the insert movement is the major cause of the ghosting, as a contaminant problem should have been easy to correct right away.

So just throwing this out there as a question to those far knowledgeable than me......is it possible the playfield is unstable as a whole due to the amount and size of the cutouts and the material used? In other words, is it possible the playfield is flexing enough to cause the separation around the edges of the inserts? Kind of like twisting a plastic ice tray? Again, don't kill me here, I am just thinking out loud....just wondering since a lot of the same inserts are having the same problem, in the same part of the playfield. If this is the case, it might stand to reason why those that got shipped farther...such as overseas, have more severe issues, since they got bounced around a whole lot more. Shaker motor might also be a killer in this case as well as we already have seen. Might also explain why mine has no issues (yet)......as it pretty much traveled across the street.

Also might explain the other game issues as well.....the more toys and inserts we add, it would weaken the playfield integrity. Add in cheaper laminated plywood, and cheaper particle board side rails.....maybe there is something to this idea? Of course the downside here is if this is the case, then it is going to be very hard to fix.

Just a late night theory......Ok VID...tell me I am whacked, and I will believe you and crawl back under the rock........lol

What do these ghosting inserts feel like - i would guess possibly sunken? I've seen dozens of old Williams playfields where the inserts noticeably rise over time but the clear still usually looks ok.

Since effective problem solving starts with good clue generation, I have to believe Stern is listing all that they know about the problem :
Inserts affected (by title )
Location on insert
PF build date, time
Insert batch
Clear coat batch
Serial code
Operators
Other manufacturing parameters, etc, and then conduct tests based on those clues.

I am surprised they do not appear to be reaching out to owners to help retrieve some of this info (similar to what some of the threads on pinside are doing). Better yet, retrieve basket case playfields and perform the autopsy for additional clues.

I worked in the automotive casting industy for many years and learned long ago making a good casting wasn't black magic as some wanted to believe.

The fact that the inserts on SMVE are ghosting when they never did on the original SM would seem to invalidate this theory. Then again, it's possible that you are on to something, and the new playfields are made of crappier wood that more easily flexes.

True.

Not true.

VID, you are a man of many words! lol

My logic is from looking at some other root cause than just the clear coat. (I know you said it may have been changed to a water base) I just can't help but feel there is some other root cause here, or at least a contributing factor, other than just being inferior clear.

But I also hold beliefs in UFO's, the Kennedy Conspiracy, and Bigfoot.....lol (no not really)

Which is why they need to employ structured problem solving (Red X) versus a shotgun approach. It is a complex problem otherwise it would have been solved some time ago.

I agree, and I'm sure they know what the problem is.....coming up with a solution maybe the tougher part. I've seen inserts move over time, but moving this soon just from expansion/contraction is just strange. This is why I think there is another factor at play.

Agreed.

May not have to be the playfields themselves.....maybe the side rails are crappier. They stiffen the playfield and keep it from flexing. Is there any difference in the structure of the SM playfield VS the SMVE? I am just guessing and admittedly may be way off base........lol

The maple plywood that is used in playfields is made ONLY for playfields.

No other industry uses it.

It is not stocked at any plywood manufacturer in the entire world.

The sugar maple plantations are only found in North America.

Europe has some maple trees, but not the climate for sugar maple production.

China has some maple trees, but not the climate for sugar maple production.

Great questions.

It looks like you are thinking about this issue more then they are (or will admit) thinking or doing anything.

There is a factory tour scheduled during the October Expo, maybe they would start answering the questions, if everyone on the tour started asking them?

My next NIB from them is on hold indefinitely until they make public statements about what they are doing, and how they will help prior customers (or not).

If they know the solution they should be able to turn the problem on and off. Putting the solution into production may be a little more challenging. If recently built playfields exhibit ghosting within a short period of time, then they obviously do not have the problem under control. They may have enhanced inspection, just not the fix.