(Topic ID: 242158)

DumbAss test and reproduction PCBs

By DumbAss

4 years ago


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    There are 1,565 posts in this topic. You are on page 26 of 32.
    #1251 1 year ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    The S3-7 board is currently blocked for general distribution due to lack of machine testing (I don't have S3-7 games). Your help will advance the board to give me some confidence. I have a local friend (20 miles) with some S7 games but they aren't set up. The Northwest Pinball Collective does have one game that could be used but I would have to ask the owner of that machine.

    I have a Time Warp (System 6) you could test on. Set up and playing 99% (one digit on the ball in play display is sometimes flaky...I can fix this before the test). I'm on the North side of Seattle.

    PM me to set something up.

    #1252 1 year ago
    Quoted from dmacy:

    This is artwork.
    [quoted image]

    It’s a shame these get hid from view, but like the slick engine of a fancy car, they’ll always be able to be shown off

    #1253 1 year ago
    Quoted from Robotworkshop:

    Do you have the early version with the 9114 chip or the current revision? Also does it look like it has the newer WDC PIA chips? They had switched over to those.

    I am sorry, I had spoken too soon. I got tired of fighting the Rottendog and swapped out my boards for Swemmers. Still acting a little funky with those boards in it. Never could get the bell to ring at the end of a multi player game. I tested the bell and the coil and in the coil tests it fire correctly. Just doesnt in actual game play.
    Sorry for the misinformation.
    Mike

    1 week later
    #1254 1 year ago

    If there was ever any doubt as to the value in buying a board prebuilt from DumbAss , let me belay those concerns.

    I’m building a Sys11 MPU, I also have two built ones ordered as well… but I’m building this one and have been keeping track of my time involvement and my costs.

    It took me 6.15 hours to source all the components. The components cost about $300 with shipping. The cost is approximate because I ordered extras of some of the common components that I use regularly and didn’t order a few that I had a lot of in stock.

    I’m about halfway through building the board and have a solid five hours tied up so far in soldering.

    If it wasn’t for all of j_m_ ‘s hard work building the diagrams, it would be a LOT more time than that!!

    Now for my question, I want to build this as a selectable MPU, so it can be A B or C. That way it will make a good test board for my shop. Do I need the digit expansion board or anything else?

    A251E711-079B-4E50-A816-C178DD159FA0 (resized).jpegA251E711-079B-4E50-A816-C178DD159FA0 (resized).jpeg1D99F01B-56E5-46BD-A156-F12556FDD57F (resized).jpeg1D99F01B-56E5-46BD-A156-F12556FDD57F (resized).jpegEBD662E8-80C7-485C-AA97-3B7CA87F773B (resized).jpegEBD662E8-80C7-485C-AA97-3B7CA87F773B (resized).jpegDAD940F7-4C86-45F7-92BF-B2B1B45DF545 (resized).jpegDAD940F7-4C86-45F7-92BF-B2B1B45DF545 (resized).jpeg
    #1255 1 year ago
    Quoted from RandyW:

    Do I need the digit expansion board or anything else?

    RandyW
    Digit expansion board?
    Perhaps you meant sound expansion board. Just a guess.
    I'm sure DumbAss will be along soon to address the question.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #1256 1 year ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    RandyW
    Digit expansion board?
    Perhaps you meant sound expansion board. Just a guess.
    I'm sure DumbAss will be along soon to address the question.

    Quoted from the documentation.

    Consequently, there exists the following configuration options:
    FIXED System 11N: Install digit daughter board and W201 as “disable”. Omit Q209 and R209. Optionally install or omit LED2.
    FIXED System 11A/11B/11C: Install LED2 and W201 as “enable”. Omit Q209 and R209.
    SELECT: Install LED2, Q209 and R209. Omit W201. Digit daughter board in=System 11N, Digit daughter board out = System 11A/11B/11C.
    Install EITHER W201 or Q209/R209. Do NOT install both W201 and Q209/R209.
    When building System 11N, installing the select configuration is the most versatile. This allows the board to be used as 11N or 11A. When building System 11A/11B/11C, installing the fixed configuration is advised because the digit daughter board is not included.

    The ability to select A B or C is extremely valuable to me atm. I have several System 11's to diagnose.

    #1257 1 year ago
    Quoted from dmacy:

    This is artwork.
    [quoted image]

    Agreed!!!

    5F0ADEA6-1FF8-4EF3-B2B9-F0F82AC33CB6 (resized).jpeg5F0ADEA6-1FF8-4EF3-B2B9-F0F82AC33CB6 (resized).jpeg
    #1258 1 year ago

    RandyW
    Clearly I’m behind the information curve.
    My mistake.

    Unfortunately, I also do not know the answer. But Victor will.

    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
    Thank you for checking out the PinWiki - http://www.PinWiki.com/

    #1259 1 year ago

    Combined answer to several inquiries.

    Quoted from fattmatt1972:

    I am hoping that once the 3-7 is verified you will sell some unpopulated boards to a few of us who are happy to build it ourselves?
    Even if you aren't selling the populated ones at that stage due to your workload?

    Once I'm satisfied that things work properly (mechanically and electrically), the board will be available as bare or complete (no kits). Bare and complete boards are separate queues. The bare queue is serviced much more quickly than the complete queue. For obvious reasons. I generally put medium and large boards in the build queue and they get built in that general order (some slight changes are made to batch similar boards for efficiency). The S3-7 is a medium-large board and subject to the build queue.

    Quoted from Tophervette:

    Hope to see you on the East Coast some year. Our Pinfest is coming up in Allentown PA.

    I had thought about attending a show other than the local PNW show but I have yet to make it to one.

    Quoted from DBaron:

    I have a Time Warp (System 6) you could test on. Set up and playing 99% (one digit on the ball in play display is sometimes flaky...I can fix this before the test). I'm on the North side of Seattle.

    I have been busy. Unfortunately, I am still busy. I did take an opportunity today to fit the board in a Black Knight and test play it briefly. I spent most of the day helping out others get their machines or boards diagnosed and/or working.

    boards_297.jpgboards_297.jpg

    Quoted from RandyW:

    Now for my question, I want to build this as a selectable MPU, so it can be A B or C. That way it will make a good test board for my shop. Do I need the digit expansion board or anything else?

    It depends on what you are trying to achieve (the end goal).

    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    I'm sure DumbAss will be along soon to address the question.

    I normally monitor things somewhat often if I am at home and working on things. Today, I was out and about at a local "repair party" to help others get their machines working to volunteer to the local show in June. Left my house at 10:30am. Returned home at 7:30pm. Long day. This is why you haven't seen anything all day.

    Quoted from RandyW:

    The ability to select A B or C is extremely valuable to me atm. I have several System 11's to diagnose.

    Diagnostic differences:

    • System 11N (nothing) uses a diagnostic digit to indicate state (normal or error). Requires S11-CPU-DDD (diagnostic digit display).
    • System 11A/11B/11C use the three diagnostic LEDs to indicate state.

    Sound/speech differences:

    • 11N uses a background music board but uses the power amplifier on the CPU board. Requires S11-CPU-A20 (amplifier TDA2002).
    • 11N and 11A use the same speech mix/balance configuration. Requires S11-CPU-DAC in 11A configuration.
    • 11B has a different speech mix/balance configuration. Requires S11-CPU-DAC in 11B configuration.

    This results in the following standard configuration options:

    • 11N = SYS-011-CPU (main board) + S11-CPU-DAC (configured 11A) + S11-CPU-DDD (digit) + S11-CPU-A02 (amplifier).
    • 11A = SYS-011-CPU (main board) + S11-CPU-DAC (configured 11A).
    • 11B = SYS-011-CPU (main board) + S11-CPU-DAC (configured 11B).
    • 11C = SYS-011-CPU (main board).

    There is one non-standard configuration that provides a "universal" board (set) that works in all configurations (11N/11A/11B/11C). I refer to this as 11U (universal) and it's not really published (up until now). This consists of SYS-011-CPU + S11-CPU-DAC (11A) + S11-CPU-DAC (11B) + S11-CPU-DDD + S11-CPU-A02. Using the correct daughter boards plugged into the main board you can correctly support all System 11 configurations. I emphasize correctly because you can use the DAC-11A in 11B and DAC-11B in 11A. It just causes the speech/music balance to be incorrect but it still "works". See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#Voice_callouts_are_much_softer_than_music.2Fsound for reference.

    RandyW contact me if you want the extra boards. If you're only interested in making a quick assessment of a System 11 game, what you have will work. If, for example, you use High Speed game software, you won't get the diagnostic digit and instead just three solid LEDs if the diagnostic LED is enabled. The information in the document is attempting to explain the differences in the configuration. R209 and Q209 sense the presence of the DDD and switch the diagnostic LED automatically. If the DDD is present, the diagnostic LED is disabled. If the DDD is absent, the diagnostic LED is enabled. The jumper W201 can also achieve this manually (as a jumper) or FIXED (for 11A/11B/11C).

    I hope that better explains things for you.

    #1261 1 year ago

    Dag Gonnit! Hate to say it but my Flintstones is resetting. Makes me want to kick it! lol! I must have ignorantly thought that would never be an issue again.

    (spitting nails)

    #1262 1 year ago
    Quoted from ibis:

    Flintstones is resetting.

    WPC resets are caused by any number of reasons. Often, this kind of failure requires multiple failures to manifest. Like most catastrophic failures (I am not saying this is catastrophic but using that as an example), a cascade of failures combine to cause the catastrophic nature of the failure. Any one of those failures by themselves don't cause a failure that manifests.

    In my experience, the most common cause is headers and connectors. Many replace the headers (either replace on the OEM board or purchase a new board), but they forget to replace the connector. The pins in the connector mate with the pins in the header. Both sides have plating that will have been removed through friction (inserts and removals) over the years. You must replace BOTH sides, otherwise you are only fixing 50% of the problem. While that may cause the catastrophic nature of the failure to disappear, eventual wear of the header and pins will likely cause the catastrophic nature to re-appear.

    The other place people often forget is the other headers and connectors in the system. In the widebody machines (Flintstones is not a widebody), there is often a "Z" connector that eased manufacturing but created another connection point. The one that is mostly forgotten is that the CPU board has its own header and connector (J210). It's not just the power being delivered by the power board, but also the connection to the CPU board. After all, it's the CPU board that manifests the failure (i.e. it resets).

    #1263 1 year ago

    Here is where I am after 10.5 hours of placing and soldering. es, I am doing stuff out of order. I wanted a challenge, so I have been doing a "Blind Box Build" Where all the individual bags of components are put into a big box. Whatever I pull out, is what I place and solder. It is like a big jigsaw puzzle!

    Now for my question, on the Sys11 board, Rev 10, it says on the board that R82-R89 should be a 270 ohm, 5w resistor. But in the build sheet it says a 0ohm resistor. Which one is correct?

    10hours (resized).jpg10hours (resized).jpg
    #1264 1 year ago
    Quoted from RandyW:

    I wanted a challenge, so I have been doing a "Blind Box Build" Where all the individual bags of components are put into a big box. Whatever I pull out, is what I place and solder. It is like a big jigsaw puzzle!

    Ballsy !

    #1265 1 year ago
    Quoted from RandyW:

    Now for my question, on the Sys11 board, Rev 10, it says on the board that R82-R89 should be a 270 ohm, 5w resistor. But in the build sheet it says a 0ohm resistor. Which one is correct?

    It depends on which type of transistor you want to use in the lamp columns.

    • OEM boards use 2N6427 -> 27 Ohm@5W -> TIP42 (BJT).
    • The MOSFET modification (described on Pinwiki) uses 2N6427 -> 1k Ohm -> MOSFET.

    You can use either but you must choose BJT or FET. You cannot "mix-n-match". The area highlighted has silkscreen information on what to install for your desired choice.

    randyw_s11_cpu_board.jpgrandyw_s11_cpu_board.jpg

    Some people read the silkscreen. Some don't. I guess I should add another little text blurb in the document to describe the difference. I always build the board with FETs. The FETs are simply more efficient and don't require the tremendous amounts of current flowing through the 27 Ohm resistor to the TIP42. In fact, with the FET you can use a 2N4401 (regulator transistor) instead of the 2N6427 (Darlington transistor). The Darlington is used to maximize the current flowing into the TIP42 B (base) to get it to transmit the maximum current through the CE (collector-emitter).

    If this doesn't answer your question then let me know what is confusing about it and I will try to explain it in a different way.

    #1266 1 year ago

    Perfect as always! I used Mosfets. So that answers that!!

    #1267 1 year ago

    Should we PM you if we're interested in a System 7 board?

    And since I will be using it for a Black Knight, that's even better as you tested on that game

    Chris

    #1268 1 year ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    It depends on which type of transistor you want to use in the lamp columns.

    OEM boards use 2N6427 -> 27 Ohm@5W -> TIP42 (BJT).
    The MOSFET modification (described on Pinwiki) uses 2N6427 -> 1k Ohm -> MOSFET.

    You can use either but you must choose BJT or FET. You cannot "mix-n-match". The area highlighted has silkscreen information on what to install for your desired choice.
    [quoted image]
    Some people read the silkscreen. Some don't. I guess I should add another little text blurb in the document to describe the difference. I always build the board with FETs. The FETs are simply more efficient and don't require the tremendous amounts of current flowing through the 27 Ohm resistor to the TIP42. In fact, with the FET you can use a 2N4401 (regulator transistor) instead of the 2N6427 (Darlington transistor). The Darlington is used to maximize the current flowing into the TIP42 B (base) to get it to transmit the maximum current through the CE (collector-emitter).
    If this doesn't answer your question then let me know what is confusing about it and I will try to explain it in a different way.

    Great explanation!

    #1269 1 year ago
    Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

    Should we PM you if we're interested in a System 7 board?

    At this time, it's probably not a good idea. I track things, but I don't track interest. If I did that, I would be overloaded with tracking too many things. Rather than centralize (I track) it, it is better to distribute (you track) it. I will post availability of the board, or at the very least progress.

    I had five of these boards made.

    1. One I built for me to do the initial "bring up" and bench verification.
    2. One was sent to a forum member willing to take the risk of building a board (after bench verification by me).
    3. One was sent to another forum member to test in System 4, 6, 6 and 7 machines.
    4. One was sent to another forum member to test in at least a System 6 machine.
    5. The last one was to another forum member to test in System 3 and 4 machines.

    I actually don't have any more boards for additional testing, short of sending out the board I have. I currently have no plans to make more of this revision. I am waiting on feedback (constructive or critical) on the board and its functioning. I know I don't want to release the current revision so once I have the required information I will make the changes and have the next revision fabricated.

    #1270 1 year ago

    Some months ago I created a poll thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-reproduction-boards-alternative-colors) asking for opinions on alternate colors. I did take this information and actually had some boards made. I will cross post some of this information to that thread as well.

    Of course, I have been busy with other things so these boards were just low on my list. Despite the fact that they are the same revisions as the regular (red) boards, I still want to build one out to make sure the batch is good. This is probably overkill but it satisfies my quality bar and comfort level.

    Here are the two alternate color boards working on the bench.

    boards_298.jpgboards_298.jpg

    Side by side (left to right) comparison of WPC-89 CPU board:

    • OEM
    • "standard" red (this is my bench board so it is using a ZIF socket daughter board)
    • "alternate" green

    This will also show some of the differences between the OEM and the reproduction.

    boards_299.jpgboards_299.jpg

    Side by side (top to bottom) comparison of WPC-89 Power Driver board:

    • OEM
    • "standard" red
    • "alternate" black

    Again, this shows differences between the OEM and the reproduction.

    boards_300.jpgboards_300.jpg

    Closer image of the green CPU board.

    boards_301.jpgboards_301.jpg

    Closer image of the black PWR board.

    boards_302.jpgboards_302.jpg

    The black board is definitely a preference / taste thing.

    I have black CPU and green PWR boards in fabrication. I generally slip these kinds of alternate color orders when there is available (self-imposed) "space" in an order I place. After these two boards, I am considering a green S11 CPU board. That should cover most of the popular options in the poll from the thread. It does not cover blue boards though. After the green S11 CPU board, I probably won't be making any other colors or any more of the colors made. I don't like sitting on a lot of boards. I still have about 5x Banzai Run interconnect boards that were fabricated 2.5 years ago with no inquiries for over a year.

    #1271 1 year ago

    Black looks slick and modern

    #1272 1 year ago

    Black looks great!!

    #1273 1 year ago

    Red is your MO

    #1274 12 months ago

    Black for the win! Much easier for these old eyes to read too.

    #1275 12 months ago

    Ditto on the black. I'm thinking the boards in my Williams Dotmation slot machines are black. Very slick.

    #1276 12 months ago

    I like the red but honestly as long as it is your quality, I really don't care what color the boards are

    Chris

    #1277 12 months ago

    The RED really pops and sets your boards apart from the rest (which are green). Original Bally Williams, PINLED, Rottendog, Basement crap, etc.

    #1278 12 months ago

    I looked into black print on yellow recently. I think that combo is the easiest to read. But the PCB company lead time for yellow was longer than I wanted to wait. They “batch” color orders, quite sensibly.

    White on Black is very readable too.
    But I prefer red or traditional green, not enough that either/any would make a difference to me.

    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
    Thank you for checking out the PinWiki - http://www.PinWiki.com/

    #1279 12 months ago

    If they ain’t purple, I’ll take red any day!

    #1280 12 months ago

    I think yellow with black text would be awesome. Would really stand out, like the red does now. Most boards are already green, so it doesn't make much sense to go with green/white.

    #1281 12 months ago

    Another vote for black....looks great

    #1282 12 months ago

    Stern white pcb with black silk?

    #1283 12 months ago
    Quoted from interconnect:

    I think yellow with black text would be awesome. Would really stand out, like the red does now. Most boards are already green, so it doesn't make much sense to go with green/white.

    Actually it does, for folks who want to keep an all-original look.

    #1284 12 months ago
    Quoted from jibmums:

    Actually it does, for folks who want to keep an all-original look.

    If you’re that concerned about how it looks, you should just get an original board then.

    #1285 12 months ago
    Quoted from interconnect:

    original board then.

    The funky purple

    #1286 12 months ago

    Red is your MO for sure, and I know when I see one ....it's your board...but If I had to pic one...Black is sexy....

    #1287 12 months ago
    Quoted from interconnect:

    If you’re that concerned about how it looks, you should just get an original board then.

    I personally couldn't care less. I got a red WPC89 power driver. Someone else might prefer green though.

    #1288 12 months ago

    Anything but green.

    #1289 12 months ago

    Green

    #1290 12 months ago

    So I’ve been loosely following this thread and I’m looking to build a driver board for my judge dredd. I understand that I purchase the board with no components…. But my question is, where do I go to to source all the components and where do I buy them all from? Digikey?

    Thank you for helping me with my Cliffs notes version of a question. Lol.

    #1291 12 months ago

    And I definitely like the Black board….

    #1292 12 months ago
    Quoted from metalkatt:

    But my question is, where do I go to to source all the components and where do I buy them all from? Digikey?

    It may be possible to source all the components from a single merchant. In these supply chain times though, that may be a challenge. The supply chains are getting better but I would not call them "back to normal". For this board that you are interested in, the more "unique" components would be:

    • triac = BT138-600E
    • switching regulator = LM2678 (fixed 5V or adjustable) and supporting Schottky diode (80SQ045 or 90SQ040)
    • (optional) flipper power relay = RTE24005 or RT424005 or other similar product

    The transistors can also pose some problems but it looks like the TIP102 is somewhat available. The TIP36C might be a challenge. I currently see two merchants that have them.

    Here are some tips:

    • I would recommend using a "big box" merchant for components rather than using smaller merchants on marketplaces. Those smaller merchants can sell re-marked parts that are under-rated for their purpose. I helped one person who purchased a bunch of resistors from a small merchant and they were just plain wrong. I heard from another person that an oscillator purchased from a small(er) merchant was DOA.
    • If you want to purchase from a single merchant, search for the more obscure parts first and find the merchants that have them in stock. Almost all the merchants will have the more common components (resistors, capacitors and diodes) in stock. It's the obscure parts that will likely give you some grief.
    • If you decide to purchase from multiple merchants, you can minimize the merchant count by using the same strategy. Sometimes, it is cheaper to purchase from multiple merchants because the pricing benefits offsets the cost of shipping an additional package.
    • If you are unsure about a component then ask. You can ask publicly (post) or privately (message).
      • Public pro: everyone can see and benefit from the response.
      • Public con: everyone can see if you asked a "stupid" question.
      • Private pro: nobody can see if you asked a "stupid" question.
      • Private con: nobody else benefits from the answer even if it is a "stupid" question.

      What might seem like a "stupid" question to you might seem like a perfectly reasonable question to someone else.

    Hope that helps. The BOM for a board is provided as an online document in table format. You can copy/paste that into a spreadsheet and use that as a place to tabulate information and track progress.

    #1293 12 months ago

    I personally like the Red, but I'm biased. I built one!

    20211017_184312 (resized).jpg20211017_184312 (resized).jpg
    #1294 12 months ago

    Stupid/Lazy question #1: Are the BOMs for each of the boards posted in this thread? It would be nice to "sticky" the BOMs using the "key post" feature of PinSide.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #1295 12 months ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Are the BOMs for each of the boards posted in this thread?

    No.

    @ J_M_ has posted links to images of the layouts. The BOM can be deduced from those images but the purpose of those images is a guide to where components are located rather than counts and types.

    I provide the link to the online document with the BOM when needed (through messaging). The privacy (and security) trained part of me says that if you publish a link publicly it will be broadcast and scraped by bots - i.e. you can't unpublish something. In the world of software security, you can't digitally unsign a block of data. You can revoke its use though. In the document world, I can't unpublish the content and I can't revoke its use either. Conclusion: don't publish the link.

    #1296 12 months ago

    I had some displays made with the black solder mask and it is considerably more difficult to visually follow the masked copper tracks compared to green boards. It all blends together a lot worse than other colors. It does look slick though.

    #1297 12 months ago

    Can someone who is good with ordering connectors help me figure out how to order the different .100 and .156 pin headers and the correct matching plug connectors? I saw DA put the part number Molex 26-48-1245 in this thread back on page ~3. but I don't understand if you buy 24s and snap them to length?

    And what housings should I buy. and for the 0.100 headers, I also struggle to understand what to order. I will need to also make my own harnesses to go from the bench test boards to the Main CPU boards, so I guess those are custom cables that go from 0.100 to 0.156 headers. I don't mean to distract DA from his board work, so I thought I'd ask here in case someone else could enlighten me.

    Thanks!

    #1298 12 months ago
    Quoted from mixographer:

    buy 24s and snap them to length?

    Exactly correct.

    Quoted from mixographer:

    those are custom cables that go from 0.100 to 0.156 headers.

    Also correct.

    Housings are best bought "to size" vs buying long housings and cutting to size. It provides a cleaner solution.
    I still used the GPE site to find the part numbers for housings and then search mouser for that part number.

    .100 ramp lock headers from Mouser...
    Mouser #:538-22-28-0360
    Mfr. # :22-28-0360
    Desc. : Headers & Wire Housings Headers & Wire Housings 36P BREAKAWAY HEADER

    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #1299 12 months ago

    I have been using Wire-Bot for my rebuilds and making cables and connectors. It is my go to place since GPE stopped shipping.

    https://wirebot.xyz/collections/connectors-crimps

    #1300 12 months ago
    Quoted from Tophervette:

    I have been using Wire-Bot for my rebuilds and making cables and connectors. It is my go to place since GPE stopped shipping.
    https://wirebot.xyz/collections/connectors-crimps

    Good source!

    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
    Thank you for checking out the PinWiki - http://www.PinWiki.com/

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