Out of Sight--Gottlieb Outhole kicker Problem


By 72GTO

3 months ago


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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by rolf_martin_062
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0Out-of-Sight-pinside-SCM-Sws (resized).jpg
relay q coil side (resized).jpg
q relay side one (resized).jpg
Manual notes for score motor (resized).jpg
score motor 4-C (resized).jpg
Out of Sight score motor 2 (resized).jpg
Out of Sight score motor (resized).jpg
high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg
high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg
0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg
0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg
Out of Sight O Q relays (resized).jpg
zero position switch (resized).jpg
0Out-of-Sight-Work-09 (resized).jpg
Out of Sight ball return (resized).jpg


#1 3 months ago

So I just finished troubleshooting a problem with the game over relay on a 1973-1974 Gottlieb Out of Sight 2 player machine. Two members in particular --MarkG and CactusJack really stepped up and helped invest some time in getting my novice repair over the hump. Really appreciate those guys and the information they and everyone else here is willing to share here.

So I have an issue that I can't seem to find in any other post that involves the ball kicker. Here's the symptom, so long as the playfield is propped up for service the outhole switch can be triggered and literally fires the kicker every time -- 100% percent of the time. I probably cycled through a hundred "pretend" games where I manually advanced the switches at the outhole and the ball trough to get the player advance to move from first to fifth ball when moving from startup to the end of game.

I thought we'd be there and was about to put the glass back in and level everything up. However I've noticed that when the playfield is placed down the ball kicker doesn't want to engage. I could only think that the way in which the ball is draining into the outhole is different than when I just close the switch with my hand. If I leave the coin door open I can look in a bit and even press the switch the same way I was doing it with the playfield up but doing so still doesn't activate the relay even though the switch is closed. What would you suggest? Does this sound electrical in some way or is there an issue with the switch? What portion of the schematics would be useful? I can't tell for certain, but with the playfield down and my face nearly in the coin box, I think I can hear a relay engage when it closes (though it's not activating the ball kicker). I also thought that maybe there was an issue with a jones plug or a wire break but the table just doesn't show enough wear that the one inch think bundle of wires would have fatigued to the point of a break.

Thanks everybody. This machine has gone from a frighteningly ugly cabinet to something with some real potential thanks to the help here. Appreciate any tips or thoughts you might have.

#2 3 months ago

The ball return circuitry is boxed in red:
Out of Sight ball return (resized).jpg

In the bottom circuit, the Ball Return Switch closes and fires the O/Outhole relay (after the Bonus Unit steps to zero if necessary). When the O/Outhold relay fires it closes a switch in the top circuit which should fire the Ball Return solenoid once the score motor turns and the switch at position 4C closes.

So when the ball return solenoid doesn't fire, does the O/Outhole relay fire and does the score motor turn?

/Mark

#3 3 months ago

No, nothing from the score motor. It's as if the switch hasn't closed but I physically see that it is closed and have cleaned and adjusted it. Curiously if I restart and raise the playfield even just a couple of inches it works.

#4 3 months ago

I'm only a newbie to pin repair, but not troubleshooting. Sounds like a connection issue with the wiring or a solder joint. You lifting the playfield and it begins to work indicates something isn't making contact when the playfield is all the way seated. Get your Ohm meter and some alligator or pincher clips and start looking where the switch wires go and I'm sure you'll find the issue. Raise and lower until you find the high resistance or open.

#5 3 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

No, nothing from the score motor. It's as if the switch hasn't closed but I physically see that it is closed and have cleaned and adjusted it. Curiously if I restart and raise the playfield even just a couple of inches it works.

Alligator clip jumper to verify the seemingly closed contacts. The pads can become electrically isolated from the fingers and you'll get very intermittent functionality

#6 3 months ago

I need to fine tune my comments and description. I was initially observing a dozen or so events in my first post. However, I've screwed around a few more hours and I am CONFIDENT this is not a switch issue at the outhole.

Let me explain. If I power off then on and press replay the first ball comes out EVERY time. If it were a switch issue the first ball would be intermittent or not shoot at all -- the switch itself doesn't know what ball its on. Also, when I initially posted I was moving the ball out of the way across the trough switch to see what the next ball would do. When I instead went through a few cycles by fishing the ball out without advancing over the trough switch I'm consistently seeing relay Q pull. When it was passing over the trough switch Q was releasing so I couldn't see it as I moved the playfield back up, it was reset by then.

I think there's some association there. I'm starting to think it's not that the playfield position that is the problem but that in a very minimal amount of game play is pulling Q in (I'm specifically speaking to Q, not QB) that must in turn interrupt the O relay or the score motor.

Does that change the analysis at all? If I manually close Q and then close the outhole switch I can simulate the malfunction it's exhibiting.

#7 3 months ago

What pulls in Q? is it the trough switch? trough switch gaped too close? The old fist hit in the middle of the pf to find switches gaped too close is a fav of mine.

#8 3 months ago

Hi 72GTO
I would like to stick to @MarkG 's questions and thoughts in post-2. See the JPG here - I squeezed a bit and show @ SteveFury 's Test-Light --- https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425

One of the things different (playfield up versus playfield down) is the position of the Bonus-Unit and its three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch. You may want to have a good look at this switch.

May want to make You Test-Lights --- looooong wires on the Test-Light - You clip-on and take the Test-Light through the open coin-door out into the open --- now You can take the playfield down - the Test-Light does tell You "current does flow or current does not flow". Greetings Rolf

0Out-of-Sight-Work-09 (resized).jpg

#9 3 months ago

Looking at the portion of the schematic that MarkG put up, the run for Q is actually depicted immediately under the O relay circuit that would control the ball kicker. Unless I'm reading it wrong it shows (#1) that the circuit for Q can be closed by contact C from motor 2(C) OR (#2) by contact on the bonus unit zero position switch (which would in that event disable O). Since I'm seeing the one circuit close and want the other, I guess that's the logical place to start next -- if I can find the damned thing.

Thanks guys. I'm learning a lot but if I were paid by the hour for the time I have in this I'd have to change business cards at this point. I'll tinker with it tonight. Thanks Rolf--we don't know one another but I've probably seen a hundred of your posts at this point. Thanks for chiming in.

#10 3 months ago

Hi 72GTO
hmm, my posts ...
You probably wanted to write in post-9 "#1 ... motor-2-B" - I disagree. Many features work like this: An relay gets Initial-Current and so the relay pulls-in --- as it is pulling: Switches are moved --- one of the moved switches is the "Self-Hold-Switch to feed "forever" current to "coil on the relay". Well, not forever --- after a long time "another switch in the Self-Hold-Circuitry of the relay does open - and cuts Self-Hold-Current --- the relay let go and so opens its "Self-Hold-Switch".
The standard example is the "Gate": The ball in play hits a target - a switch on the playfield closes - Initial-Current flows to "Coil on Gate-Relay" - Gate(Relay) opens and a "Switch on the Gate(Relay)" closes - the Self-Hold-Switch closes --- from now on the Gate stays open for a long time (the ball must not close the playfield-switch anymore). And then later the ball rolls in the Shooter-Alley over a wireform switch - switch opens and cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry on Gate(Relay). No - Your #1 does not feed Initial-Current to "Coil on Q-Relay".

Look on the underneath-side of the playfield for the Bonus-Unit - when the Unit steps down: A three-bladed switch is moved when stepping down from "One Bonus" to "Zero Bonus" --- a rod on the wheel moves the middle blade of the switch. Greetings Rolf

NOTE: I edited my post - in the beginning - I changed to motor-2-B --- B, B, B (it is dangerous to mock on somebody elses writing ...)

#11 3 months ago

Rolf -- you're correct it was score motor 2-B then to contact Q, when both are closed then Q relay should close right? That's the first path.

Then there's a second path. So I've attached a photo of what I believe is the correct switch. (In the attached photo the prawl is moved about 6-8 teeth counterclockwise out of the way). At reset the prawl appears to move clockwise until it closes the top two contacts in the m/b switch (mar-yellow and sl). So long as those two connect the outhole switch and O relay are happy. Next, when the prawl moves during play mar-yellow contacts at the m/b open and all the remaining contacts next close; Mar-yellow on the m/b and the bottom set a mottled, red-brn something.

So when I was having reset issues early in these repairs a week ago I did go over these. I assumed everything was correct because the scores were resetting etc. However, I should confirm that its correct -- but I'm confident that everything that's making contact is making good contact. To confirm: is the brown to yellow mar contact on the m/b supposed to be closed if yellow-maroon to slate is open? That's what I have understood -- that its binary -- one or the other. Rolf, I am following what you are saying about the gate relay, etc. But in this instance if O is getting power than Q would not get power -- right? Could those two properly be engaged simultaneously? I don't know understand why the contact would be a m/b switch if they could both be activated simultaneously. If so, I'm really confused and need to relearn the basics...again...but my being mistaken about this is definitely not off the table.

Thanks everybody for helping to straighten me out. Please tell me what I did this time.

zero position switch (resized).jpg

#12 3 months ago

I'm having a hard time keeping up with the details and observations on this one...

It looks like the switch in your photo is the M/B switch on the Bonus Unit shown earlier, but highlighted here:
Out of Sight O Q relays (resized).jpg

The schematic confirms the maroon-yellow, blue and brown wires connected to it. And yes, it should fire either the O relay or the Q relay, but never both at the same time.

The way I think this works is that at the start of a game after reset, the Bonus unit is in the zero position and when the Ball Return switch closes, the highlighted M/B switch allows the O relay to fire which starts the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball.

During game play, the Bonus unit advances from the zero position whenever the E relay fires. (The E relay would be named in a table on the left side of the schematic which I don't have.) Once the Bonus Unit moves from the zero position, the M/B switch opens on the O relay side and closes on the Q relay side.

When the ball drains and the Ball Return switch closes again, the Q relay should fire (assuming that the Bonus Unit isn't at the zero position) which should fire up the score motor which in turn fires the Bonus Unit Subtract solenoid repeatedly until the Bonus Unit is back in the zero position.

Once back in the zero position, the M/B switch flips back to the other side, the Ball Return switch is still closed so the O relay fires which also runs the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball.

So manually step up the Bonus Unit a few clicks and close the Ball Return switch. Does the Q relay fire, score motor turn and Bonus Unit step down to the zero position?

/Mark

#13 3 months ago

Hi 72GTO
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/can-you-guys-help-with-a-gottlieb-game-over-issue#post-4223470 in Your first JPG, on the very bottom, towards left: See (?) the "Switch named Zero Pos. Bonus Unit" - it is in the wiring towards the L-1000-Point-Relay.

There is a difference between "what the pin is doing" and what we believe the pin is doing". When a ball is lost and enters the Outhole: The feature is triggered "Count down the Bonus-Ladder". We players belive to see "The pin steps down (we see it on the playfield lights) and this makes the 1000-Point-Score-Drum to step forward (we hear the stepping on the Score-Drum). This our imagination is not 100% true --- actually the pin has two features running - one feature does rhythmically step down the Bonus-Ladder - the other feature does rhythmically step on the 1000-Points-Score-Drum (via the rhythmically pulling-in of the L-1000-Points-Relay).
The two-bladed switch on the bottom of Your JPG in post-11 is this switch "in the wiring towards the L-1000-Points-Relay" --- if this switch would not open when the Bonus-Unit has stepped to position-Zero: You would get some more 1000ds of points - as long the motor turns. The three-bladed-Switch in Your JPG in post-9 is the M&B-Switch @MarkG and I/me are after - as long as there are bonus on the Bonus-Unit: The Q-hey-brain-of-the-pin-lets-count-down-the-bonus-relay - Q-Bonus-Score-Relay must be active --- On the last step on the Bonus-Unit stepping from "ONE-Bonus on the Unit" to "ZERO-Bonus on the Unit": The middle blade on this three-bladed M&B-Switch must move no more feeding electricity to Q-Relay --- hey Outhole-Relay - hey You must pull-in and stay pulling.

And because You have not yet clipped-on Test-Light(s) to tell us about "Q-Relay-Coil gets current / O-Relay-Coil gets current (?)": The working hypothesis still is: MAYBE (?) this threebladed switch on the Bonus-Unit acts different "Playfield is up versus playfield is down" - we do not know - we must check.
I can use / show pictures I made April 2017 - the first is for "general orientation" - the second shows (right to left) TWO-Bonus - ONE-Bonus - ZERO-Bonus. The "two-bladed switch opens at "One down to Zero" - at the same time: Middle blade on M&B-Switch is moved "to the right and up" and the "closing of middle-blade with upper-right-blade - this closing is in question - playfield is up it works - how about "playfield is down".
Thats the reason why I suggested the Test-Lights (see post-8).

The "threebladed M&B-Switch on the Bonus-Unit" is "either feeding Q-Relay" or then it is "feeding O-Relay". Greetings Rolf

0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg

0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg

#14 3 months ago

Mark:

I wanted to respond to your questions. (Rolf I'll be back to respond to yours)

1. " * * * at the start of a game after reset, the Bonus unit is in the zero position and when the Ball Return switch closes, the highlighted M/B switch allows the O relay to fire which starts the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball."

Yes. That is working all the time 100% of the time on a new game/reset.

2. "During game play, the Bonus unit advances from the zero position whenever the E relay fires * * * Once the Bonus Unit moves from the zero position, the M/B switch opens on the O relay side and closes on the Q relay side."

Yes that is what I'm observing.

3. "When the ball drains and the Ball Return switch closes again, the Q relay should fire (assuming that the Bonus Unit isn't at the zero position) which should fire up the score motor which in turn fires the Bonus Unit Subtract solenoid repeatedly until the Bonus Unit is back in the zero position"

This is not happening. Between balls all the targets are resetting but the Bonus relay isn't returning to zero position until a new game is started.

4. "Once back in the zero position, the M/B switch flips back to the other side, the Ball Return switch is still closed so the O relay fires which also runs the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball"

In zero position with the contacts at maroon-yellow to slate closed, O is firing (I think that is where the confusion initially arose when I first posted because it appeared that the hold up on the ball kicker was related directly to the position of the playfield. Instead I now think that with the playfield up, while I scored a few targets, I did not score enough to move the bonus relay off of the home position. For that reason it appeared that the position of the playfield was the problem when it was just insufficient game play to move the bonus relay off of relay O and instead to Q (I think?)

5. "So manually step up the Bonus Unit a few clicks and close the Ball Return switch. Does the Q relay fire, score motor turn and Bonus Unit step down to the zero position?"

Q relay closes but the score motor isn't being activated and the bonus unit is not returning to the zero position as best I can tell.

Attached are images with the relevant portions of the schematics.

Thanks again everybody. I appreciate the thoughtful assistance.

high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg

high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg

#15 3 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

Q relay closes but the score motor isn't being activated and the bonus unit is not returning to the zero position as best I can tell.

Ok. Q fires. Check the switch on the Q relay that should start the score motor.

Out of Sight score motor (resized).jpg

The Q relay switch connects the yellow-red wire to the red-white wire.

#16 3 months ago

Mark:

I checked the Q relay contacts at yellow-red to red-white on Q. Closing it doesn't do anything at score motor. (For the record, I cleaned, adjusted and jumped the two together with test leads so the problem lies before or after that set of contacts). I just wanted to add, at startup the bonus stepper is consistently returning to zero position and is definitely advancing during play but its definitely not returning to zero between balls when targets, etc, are resetting [not certain it's supposed to but it isn't if that means anything].

On the contact at Q relay the red-white leg seems pretty simple. Power flows through the 15 amp fuse, through the closed bounce switch, and through a number of wired connections to get to that lead. I'm getting power to replay, etc. coming off the same leg so I don't see how it could be there unless a wire were physically not making contact outside of that set of contacts on Q. On the run with the Yellow-Red on the other side, I assume that there needs to be a normally closed switch somewhere on the score motor itself for it to move?

(I'll give my confession before I ask my next dumb question about this schematic -- I've been staring at this schematic in five or ten minute increments for a cumulative total of 3-4 hours and this is the first time I realized that the line Mark is referencing on the schematic told me everything in five inches that is making the score motor run. I really can't believe I didn't catch on to that before and need to rethink the money I've invested in my education!).

So apart from asking where I go next, I wanted to get clarification on that same line of the schematic so I understand what is happening. Immediately right of SB1-2 on that line is a contact for score motor 1-C. I read that line as saying that any contact closing where designated at each of the respective O, E, J, D, Q, S U, W, relays etc will independently complete the circuit when closed at the appropriate contact to run the motor regardless of whether 1-C is open or closed -- am I correct about that because I don't see the closed circle above motor 1-C that I see on all the other contacts. Stated another way, for example for D to close to turn the score motor does D need to close its set of contacts along with contacts at motor 1-C closed to move the motor or could 1-C be open? I've understood its the latter but I'm getting a little slap-happy and I'm second guessing some of this).

Appreciate any further direction, this is incredibly helpful. Rolf, I've not forgotten my science project -- getting supplies today. The Wife is going to be thrilled with my attention to this machine on Valentine's day...better order more flowers... but I think I've got to be close to getting this done.

#17 3 months ago

Hi 72GTO
"Far Out" is my Number-One Pin - I do a lot for "Far Out / Out of Sight" --- may want to read this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-em-tech-help-please#post-3458227 .

You are right - the "motor 1C switch" should have a drawn circle around it as it is an Switch on the Score-Motor. There are some features in the pin that do not need the help of the Score-Motor turning - examples "making 10 points - open the Gate - closing the Gate and more simple stuff". When a feature is more complex - when several things must be done: The feature - and later on another feature and and and - call for help of the Score-Motor. "Williams and Bally Score-Motors are built 180 degrees symmetrical - the motor is at rest - is called for help - motor turns 180 degrees then stops - the motor is in Home-Position again". Gottlieb built the Score-Motor 120 degrees symmetrical - "a third of an revolution" actuates all / every switch --- within such a turn of 120 degrees some switches are actuated five times.

EVERY feature calling for help of the Score-Motor rely on "Score-Motor will do a complete turn of 120 degrees (((Willams and Bally: 180 degrees)))" --- so the manufacturers made an "Self-Hold-Switch on the Score-Motor - O, E, J, D, Q, S, U, W close a switch maybe only for a short period of time - the motor starts running and immediately closes its "Self-Hold-Switch - the motor-1C switch" --- when the turning motor comes to the end of 120 degrees (Williams and Bally: 180 degrees): motor-1C opens and the motor runs-out (maybe with the help of a brake).
There would / will be very strange faults if the motor stops some place like "at 30 degrees or at 42 degrees or at 88 degrees or whatever degrees".

Theory - making 50 points: The ball hits a target on the playfield worth 50 points - the D-50-Points-Relay pulls-in - has its own Self-Hold-Switch - keeps on pulling - the ball on the playfield can roll further - playfield-Switch opens - D-Relay is pulling. D-Relay calls for help of the Score-Motor - D-Relay closes a switch - motor starts turning - motor closes "Motor-Self-Hold-Switch-1C" - motor runs and runs - a switch on the motor is pulsed 5 times within the turn of 120-degrees - 10 points and again and again and again and again are given by actuating five times the N-10-Point-Relay. After giving these points the turning motor comes towards "end of its turn" - the motor opens a switch in the "Self-Hold-Circuitry of D-Relay" - D-Relay drops out - so opens its "calling for help of motor switch" - but the motor-self-hold-switch-1C is still closed - motor keeps-on running - comes to end - opens its switch-1C - motor runs out and stops in Home-Position. Greetings Rolf

#18 3 months ago

Ok, I'll take a step back to clarify, or for anyone else reading for whom it may not be clear.

Here's the complete score motor schematic extracted from the entire schematic:
Out of Sight score motor 2 (resized).jpg
The bottom section shows 25 volts AC coming out of the transformer. Going counterclockwise from the transformer the circuit goes through a 15 amp fuse, a normally closed Bounce switch and up the right side of the schematic (past lots of other circuits not shown) to the other section at about index 15 where the score motor details are.

The upper section shows the path to the score motor with 11 switches wired in parallel between the red-white wire (on the right side) and the yellow-red wire leading to the score motor service jack. Both electrically and functionally those 11 switches are identical in the sense that any one of them can start the score motor just by closing and letting current flow between the yellow-red and red-white wires. The order of the switches is not important and the labels are just notations to help you find the switches in the game.

Switches like these wired in parallel are analogous to OR gates in digital hardware or OR functions in software or regular expressions used by search engines. In fact you can describe the circuit as:

"The Score motor runs when the O relay fires OR when the E relay fires OR when the J relay fires OR...."

The black dots at the intersection of some wires in the schematic are just a notation for clarity to indicate when two crossing wires are electrically connected. Gottlieb schematics like this one use a black dot to indicate an electrical connection between intersecting wires. No black dot means no electrical connection. In the score motor circuit above the O and Motor 1C switches have no black dot because there is no intersection between wires. There's just a single, bent wire.

Other manufacturers have other ways of distinguishing between connected and not connected wires.

Continuing on past the 11 switches the circuit goes through a motor service jack which allows you to disconnect the score motor temporarily so it won't fire up while you're working on it. And finally the circuit gets to the score motor before returning to the other side of the transformer.

So the transformer delivers the energy in the form of electric current, the switches control where the energy gets delivered to, and the score motor (and relays and solenoids) use the energy when it gets to them to produce motion of some kind.

To circle back to your issue, the score motor is not turning when the Q relay fires. Somewhere there's a disconnect that you'll have to find using a meter or test leads or a light bulb tester. Once the score motor turns in response to the Q relay you can see at the top of the schematic above that with Q and score motor 4C switches closed the "Subtract Bonus Unit" solenoid should fire and get you back on your way.

/Mark

#19 3 months ago

Mark:

Great thank you for the explanation.

So here's where I'm at in the last 48 hours. I followed the yellow-red to the 4-C switch stack and had continuity. But the motor still isn't moving when those contacts close. To be certain, I jumped from yellow red on Q to the score motor yellow red and the score motor didn't move. Attached is a photo of that switch stack. The yellow-red is the second from the center and the first on the opposite side of the switch dog (?).

I'm also attaching a photo of a portion of the manual. It seems like the manual is saying its the third switch on 4-C.

Also, I've screwed around such that the bonus stepper is not stepping forward from home nor are the 10 drop targets registering. Would there be a common point or relay as to those two items which I messed up? Score motor is still running at startup and is triggering the coil on the stepper and the outhole kicker is not activating via Q only O. If I understand correctly, O should be activating only on the first ball?

Again, I really appreciate you and Rolf and anyone else willing to help. Hope I'm not wearing out my welcome.

score motor 4-C (resized).jpg

Manual notes for score motor (resized).jpg

#20 3 months ago

Whoa... One thing at a time. Let's get the score motor working before moving on. If you jumper from the score motor yellow-red wire to the red-white wire on the other side of the 11 switches does the score motor turn? If the game runs at all I think it should.

If that works, try manually activating each of the 10 relays shown in the score motor schematic (D, E, J, O, Q, etc.). You should be able to get the score motor to run by activating any one of these. We think Q won't do it but will the others? Try them all.

#21 3 months ago

Sorry for all the extraneous information -- all the failures on this thing are like the plot of the Apollo 13 movie (different insofar as Lovell didn't destroy the spaceship where the owner here is the problem).

To be clear the issue at hand is still the outhole kicker/Q relay/Bonus Stepper. Because some of the odd behaviors or failures may help isolate some issues on that particular problem I'll continue to make footnotes at the bottom of my replay and understand and ask everyone --as Mark reminds me -- to help me solve just the outhole issue for now. The other issues will rest on the bottom of each of my posts until someone tells me they me be relevant to the outhole kicker/Q relay/ Bonus stepper dilemma at issue in this thread or will be posted separately later.

So first I need to clarify something with respect to my prior responses on relay Q. As depicted in a couple of photos I'm attaching here there are two stacks of switches on Q relay. With respect to those two stacks I hadn't realized that there are actually two sets of contacts that are yellow-red to red-white on both side of the Q relay -- one on each of the respective stacks. The first photo shows the rear of the Q relay (which would be the aspect facing the backbox and not immediately visible). On the rear side there is a yellow-red wire that closes to a red-white wire which I didn't even see marked in red. The second photo with the coil visible is taken from the other side of the relay facing the front of the machine and shows another set of red-yellow to red white contacts nearest the coin box marked in black. My prior response was in relation to the set of contacts located within the black box and on the side with the coil visible.

However, I have now probed the other yellow-red (in the red box side) to score motor 4-C again with continuity but on a different switch. But because they are both getting continuity, I'm not sure which set is actually the set that you previously referenced but I'm starting to think that the "front" set is actually red-yellow and the back is yellow-red.

So MarkG gave me some direction and wrote: "If you jumper from the score motor yellow-red wire to the red-white wire on the other side of the 11 switches does the score motor turn?"

I jumped from the Red-white shown in the red box to the yellow-red wire and lug that is attached to the jones plug where the score motor is. (I assume that the service jack you described). The score motor DOES moves there.

Then Mark G directed to confirm score motor operation on the other relays reflected in the schematic at line #15.

With the game on, the bank reset, ball moved to position 2 or 3 so that zb was engaged, I went through each of the relays and find them as follows:

D, J, O, S, U, W, SB1-2 -- score motor moves when closing (obviously, a couple of those also reset the game -- where that happened I reset to get to the same condition). However, on E and Q the relay each locks and holds but produces no movement from the score motor.

(Again ***** merely in case it helps troubleshoot the present problem ***** here are some other abnormal behaviors drop targets are not scoring (but were previously), the top roll over switches not doing anything, the ball kicker still not engaging after Q relay locks although the ball kicker is working fine with the O relay, bonus stepper will move fine manually, at restart, or when energizing switches on 4-C but not stepping up or down during normal game play. If they are not related, and I suspect they may not be, I'll post those in other threads if I can't get it worked out).

Thanks MarkG, Rolf and everybody contributing. In the future there's going to be a lot of Gottlieb information in this thread for new guys like me from all this help. I'm past being irritated with it and you guys are tremendously generous despite having no "skin in the game."

q relay side one (resized).jpg

relay q coil side (resized).jpg

#22 3 months ago

Good observation: yellow-red is not the same as red-yellow. Generally the first color listed is the predominant color while the 2nd color is the tracer color. Of the two photos the 2nd one shows the yellow-red wire. The wire in the 1st photo is admittedly a tougher call.

I should point out that a continuity check with a multimeter isn't reliable enough to prove a viable connection between two points in a pinball machine. When using a meter you'll get more reliable results measuring ohms on the lowest range setting. That way you can distinguish between a dead short (which usually measures no more than an ohm or two) and some other indirect path through a coil (which usually measures over 5 ohms). Some meters will beep for continuity in both cases.

Based on your observations both the E and Q relays are locking on because they're failing to start the score motor. You can test that theory by closing each one individually, letting it lock on, then manually giving the score motor a nudge until the Score Motor Runout switch closes and the score motor runs. Then you should see the E or Q relay release.

You still need to figure out why the Q and E relay switches aren't starting the score motor. Remember that for the motor to run the yellow-red wire needs to be shorted to the red-white wire. The problem could be in the individual switches (misadjusted or loose contacts) or in the solder tabs (cold solder joint) or in a jones plug or even possibly a broken wire (the least likely unless there's visible damage).

Just a thought. Are the Q and E relays in the head? Could they have a bad jones plug connection in common?

/Mark

#23 3 months ago

As to location -- both relays are on the bottom board not far from the score motor. The wires are tightly wound with gut so I can't see everywhere they travel but I don't see how a jones plug would be in the equation. As you suspected there's continuity on several switches on 4-C of the score motor and either of the two yellow-red wires. Most are between 4-6 ohm. However The yellow red on the back side (so it would be in the red box in the first photo) showed .2 ohm on the normally open switch at 4-C.

Both relays will release if engaged upon nudging the score motor. In comparing the switch functions listed from the manual shown in the image at response no. 19 there is a lot at 4-C that seems related to the targets, stepper, etc. is that significant?

#24 3 months ago

Yes, score motor 4C switches should subtract from the bonus unit and reset the targets. But until you can get the Q (and E) relay to start the score motor that won't happen. The 4C switch has nothing to do with getting the score motor going. It's the score motor that should activate the 4C switch.

All you need to sort out in the short term is to figure out why the Q and E relay switches don't connect the red-white wire on the right side of the schematic to the yellow-red wire that runs the score motor. Once these two start the score motor reliably then we can worry about whether or not the 4C switches are working.

#25 3 months ago

Hi 72GTO, MarkG +
a schematics is drawn "abstract, beautyful" --- electrically it is "true" but the wires may run wired different - hopping to solderlugs on a relay (and the relay is not drawn in the schematics as only the solderlug is used) - wire might fork-off and come to an dead end on a switch.
The drawing of (see the JPG) these "switches sitting (close together) neatly in a line" does not show the reality in the pin.

You would like to have "Switch on Q-Relay working" and also "Switch on E-Relay working". The following is not a "fix" - but can be used as an "work-around" so You can proceed to other problems. Also it is "troubleshooting - learning about wiring".
Whenever we see in the schematics a "connecting line - directly from here to there": We can take an Jumper-Wire - clip-on as permanent - the Jumper-wire GUARANTEES connection.
The "Switch on S-Start-Relay" is good and makes the motor to run --- Jumper-Wires to "Switch on Q-Relay (SAME COLOR)" - one Jumper-Wire on the side "wire-of-color-red-white" and another Jumper-Wire on the side "wire-of-color-yellow-mingled-with-red" and then "Q-Relay actuating" - through Jumper-Wires: The good connection to S-Start-Relay is used --- Q-Relay actuating makes the motor to run.

IF (if, if) You set the two Jumper-Wires and the actuating of Q-Relay does NOT make the motor to run: Either the contact-points on Q-Relay-Switch are oxidated or the switch does not mechanically close - or You are on "wrong switches".

Using the Jumper-Wires for trouble-shooting: Clip-on both - it works - take away ONE - does it work or not ? and so You learn about "which wire is the troubled wire". Greetings Rolf

0Out-of-Sight-pinside-SCM-Sws (resized).jpg

#26 3 months ago

Thanks Mark and Rolf. Finally found the gremlin. I took the bottom board out so I could better follow the location of wires, cut a few strands of gut here and there and found a cold solder problem on the E relay. Before Mark clarified the Yellow red to the service jack I mistook it as yellow red to score motor 4-C and probably would never have gotten there left to my own devices. Learned a hell of a lot though!

The game is far from perfect but the very basic systems are operating and now I can play through a whole game 1 or 2 player without some manner of score motor issue. I also solved the target bank reset issue. Corrosion on fuse holder. Took a while to find it but a simple fix once I found it. I didn't realize that was 120.

So there are a couple of remaining issues I need some help with. You guys have already served a lengthy tour of duty on this one. Would you mind if I pick your brains some more in this thread or should I start a new one? I have some scoring issues, (seems like no bonus multipliers are actually registering, for example drop target when lit is scoring nothing when it should be huge points), and the AS switch is not returning to zero after a game, and a couple of play field roll overs are doing nothing even thought the contacts are clean and adjusted. They also seem related to the bonus issue.

Again thanks so much for helping get this much solved. I thought this one was going to be relatively simple but by the end it was like Mark was doing surgery with the DiVinci robot. If I ignore the score at least the glass can finally go back on and looks nearly repaired!

#27 3 months ago

A new topic with an appropriate title would make it easier for others to find the discussion some day when researching a similar problem.

#28 3 months ago

Got it. Again thanks to you and to Rolf on this one.

( Rolf I'm about to post a new thread and wish to borrow a pic you posted if you don't mind regarding some scoring issues).

#29 3 months ago

Hi 72GTO
I believe the rules in pinside are "whatever picture / JPG / PDF a pinsider uploads": Other pinsiders can use mentioning or not mentioning where they have "their" picture from. Greetings Rolf

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