So I just finished troubleshooting a problem with the game over relay on a 1973-1974 Gottlieb Out of Sight 2 player machine. Two members in particular --MarkG and CactusJack really stepped up and helped invest some time in getting my novice repair over the hump. Really appreciate those guys and the information they and everyone else here is willing to share here.

So I have an issue that I can't seem to find in any other post that involves the ball kicker. Here's the symptom, so long as the playfield is propped up for service the outhole switch can be triggered and literally fires the kicker every time -- 100% percent of the time. I probably cycled through a hundred "pretend" games where I manually advanced the switches at the outhole and the ball trough to get the player advance to move from first to fifth ball when moving from startup to the end of game.

I thought we'd be there and was about to put the glass back in and level everything up. However I've noticed that when the playfield is placed down the ball kicker doesn't want to engage. I could only think that the way in which the ball is draining into the outhole is different than when I just close the switch with my hand. If I leave the coin door open I can look in a bit and even press the switch the same way I was doing it with the playfield up but doing so still doesn't activate the relay even though the switch is closed. What would you suggest? Does this sound electrical in some way or is there an issue with the switch? What portion of the schematics would be useful? I can't tell for certain, but with the playfield down and my face nearly in the coin box, I think I can hear a relay engage when it closes (though it's not activating the ball kicker). I also thought that maybe there was an issue with a jones plug or a wire break but the table just doesn't show enough wear that the one inch think bundle of wires would have fatigued to the point of a break.

Thanks everybody. This machine has gone from a frighteningly ugly cabinet to something with some real potential thanks to the help here. Appreciate any tips or thoughts you might have.

No, nothing from the score motor. It's as if the switch hasn't closed but I physically see that it is closed and have cleaned and adjusted it. Curiously if I restart and raise the playfield even just a couple of inches it works.

I need to fine tune my comments and description. I was initially observing a dozen or so events in my first post. However, I've screwed around a few more hours and I am CONFIDENT this is not a switch issue at the outhole.

Let me explain. If I power off then on and press replay the first ball comes out EVERY time. If it were a switch issue the first ball would be intermittent or not shoot at all -- the switch itself doesn't know what ball its on. Also, when I initially posted I was moving the ball out of the way across the trough switch to see what the next ball would do. When I instead went through a few cycles by fishing the ball out without advancing over the trough switch I'm consistently seeing relay Q pull. When it was passing over the trough switch Q was releasing so I couldn't see it as I moved the playfield back up, it was reset by then.

I think there's some association there. I'm starting to think it's not that the playfield position that is the problem but that in a very minimal amount of game play is pulling Q in (I'm specifically speaking to Q, not QB) that must in turn interrupt the O relay or the score motor.

Does that change the analysis at all? If I manually close Q and then close the outhole switch I can simulate the malfunction it's exhibiting.

Looking at the portion of the schematic that MarkG put up, the run for Q is actually depicted immediately under the O relay circuit that would control the ball kicker. Unless I'm reading it wrong it shows (#1) that the circuit for Q can be closed by contact C from motor 2(C) OR (#2) by contact on the bonus unit zero position switch (which would in that event disable O). Since I'm seeing the one circuit close and want the other, I guess that's the logical place to start next -- if I can find the damned thing.

Thanks guys. I'm learning a lot but if I were paid by the hour for the time I have in this I'd have to change business cards at this point. I'll tinker with it tonight. Thanks Rolf--we don't know one another but I've probably seen a hundred of your posts at this point. Thanks for chiming in.

Rolf -- you're correct it was score motor 2-B then to contact Q, when both are closed then Q relay should close right? That's the first path.

Then there's a second path. So I've attached a photo of what I believe is the correct switch. (In the attached photo the prawl is moved about 6-8 teeth counterclockwise out of the way). At reset the prawl appears to move clockwise until it closes the top two contacts in the m/b switch (mar-yellow and sl). So long as those two connect the outhole switch and O relay are happy. Next, when the prawl moves during play mar-yellow contacts at the m/b open and all the remaining contacts next close; Mar-yellow on the m/b and the bottom set a mottled, red-brn something.

So when I was having reset issues early in these repairs a week ago I did go over these. I assumed everything was correct because the scores were resetting etc. However, I should confirm that its correct -- but I'm confident that everything that's making contact is making good contact. To confirm: is the brown to yellow mar contact on the m/b supposed to be closed if yellow-maroon to slate is open? That's what I have understood -- that its binary -- one or the other. Rolf, I am following what you are saying about the gate relay, etc. But in this instance if O is getting power than Q would not get power -- right? Could those two properly be engaged simultaneously? I don't know understand why the contact would be a m/b switch if they could both be activated simultaneously. If so, I'm really confused and need to relearn the basics...again...but my being mistaken about this is definitely not off the table.

Thanks everybody for helping to straighten me out. Please tell me what I did this time.

zero position switch (resized).jpg

Mark:

I wanted to respond to your questions. (Rolf I'll be back to respond to yours)

1. " * * * at the start of a game after reset, the Bonus unit is in the zero position and when the Ball Return switch closes, the highlighted M/B switch allows the O relay to fire which starts the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball."

Yes. That is working all the time 100% of the time on a new game/reset.

2. "During game play, the Bonus unit advances from the zero position whenever the E relay fires * * * Once the Bonus Unit moves from the zero position, the M/B switch opens on the O relay side and closes on the Q relay side."

Yes that is what I'm observing.

3. "When the ball drains and the Ball Return switch closes again, the Q relay should fire (assuming that the Bonus Unit isn't at the zero position) which should fire up the score motor which in turn fires the Bonus Unit Subtract solenoid repeatedly until the Bonus Unit is back in the zero position"

This is not happening. Between balls all the targets are resetting but the Bonus relay isn't returning to zero position until a new game is started.

4. "Once back in the zero position, the M/B switch flips back to the other side, the Ball Return switch is still closed so the O relay fires which also runs the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball"

In zero position with the contacts at maroon-yellow to slate closed, O is firing (I think that is where the confusion initially arose when I first posted because it appeared that the hold up on the ball kicker was related directly to the position of the playfield. Instead I now think that with the playfield up, while I scored a few targets, I did not score enough to move the bonus relay off of the home position. For that reason it appeared that the position of the playfield was the problem when it was just insufficient game play to move the bonus relay off of relay O and instead to Q (I think?)

5. "So manually step up the Bonus Unit a few clicks and close the Ball Return switch. Does the Q relay fire, score motor turn and Bonus Unit step down to the zero position?"

Q relay closes but the score motor isn't being activated and the bonus unit is not returning to the zero position as best I can tell.

Attached are images with the relevant portions of the schematics.

Thanks again everybody. I appreciate the thoughtful assistance.

high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg

high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg

Mark:

I checked the Q relay contacts at yellow-red to red-white on Q. Closing it doesn't do anything at score motor. (For the record, I cleaned, adjusted and jumped the two together with test leads so the problem lies before or after that set of contacts). I just wanted to add, at startup the bonus stepper is consistently returning to zero position and is definitely advancing during play but its definitely not returning to zero between balls when targets, etc, are resetting [not certain it's supposed to but it isn't if that means anything].

On the contact at Q relay the red-white leg seems pretty simple. Power flows through the 15 amp fuse, through the closed bounce switch, and through a number of wired connections to get to that lead. I'm getting power to replay, etc. coming off the same leg so I don't see how it could be there unless a wire were physically not making contact outside of that set of contacts on Q. On the run with the Yellow-Red on the other side, I assume that there needs to be a normally closed switch somewhere on the score motor itself for it to move?

(I'll give my confession before I ask my next dumb question about this schematic -- I've been staring at this schematic in five or ten minute increments for a cumulative total of 3-4 hours and this is the first time I realized that the line Mark is referencing on the schematic told me everything in five inches that is making the score motor run. I really can't believe I didn't catch on to that before and need to rethink the money I've invested in my education!).

So apart from asking where I go next, I wanted to get clarification on that same line of the schematic so I understand what is happening. Immediately right of SB1-2 on that line is a contact for score motor 1-C. I read that line as saying that any contact closing where designated at each of the respective O, E, J, D, Q, S U, W, relays etc will independently complete the circuit when closed at the appropriate contact to run the motor regardless of whether 1-C is open or closed -- am I correct about that because I don't see the closed circle above motor 1-C that I see on all the other contacts. Stated another way, for example for D to close to turn the score motor does D need to close its set of contacts along with contacts at motor 1-C closed to move the motor or could 1-C be open? I've understood its the latter but I'm getting a little slap-happy and I'm second guessing some of this).

Appreciate any further direction, this is incredibly helpful. Rolf, I've not forgotten my science project -- getting supplies today. The Wife is going to be thrilled with my attention to this machine on Valentine's day...better order more flowers... but I think I've got to be close to getting this done.

Mark:

Great thank you for the explanation.

So here's where I'm at in the last 48 hours. I followed the yellow-red to the 4-C switch stack and had continuity. But the motor still isn't moving when those contacts close. To be certain, I jumped from yellow red on Q to the score motor yellow red and the score motor didn't move. Attached is a photo of that switch stack. The yellow-red is the second from the center and the first on the opposite side of the switch dog (?).

I'm also attaching a photo of a portion of the manual. It seems like the manual is saying its the third switch on 4-C.

Also, I've screwed around such that the bonus stepper is not stepping forward from home nor are the 10 drop targets registering. Would there be a common point or relay as to those two items which I messed up? Score motor is still running at startup and is triggering the coil on the stepper and the outhole kicker is not activating via Q only O. If I understand correctly, O should be activating only on the first ball?

Again, I really appreciate you and Rolf and anyone else willing to help. Hope I'm not wearing out my welcome.

score motor 4-C (resized).jpg

Manual notes for score motor (resized).jpg

Sorry for all the extraneous information -- all the failures on this thing are like the plot of the Apollo 13 movie (different insofar as Lovell didn't destroy the spaceship where the owner here is the problem).

To be clear the issue at hand is still the outhole kicker/Q relay/Bonus Stepper. Because some of the odd behaviors or failures may help isolate some issues on that particular problem I'll continue to make footnotes at the bottom of my replay and understand and ask everyone --as Mark reminds me -- to help me solve just the outhole issue for now. The other issues will rest on the bottom of each of my posts until someone tells me they me be relevant to the outhole kicker/Q relay/ Bonus stepper dilemma at issue in this thread or will be posted separately later.

So first I need to clarify something with respect to my prior responses on relay Q. As depicted in a couple of photos I'm attaching here there are two stacks of switches on Q relay. With respect to those two stacks I hadn't realized that there are actually two sets of contacts that are yellow-red to red-white on both side of the Q relay -- one on each of the respective stacks. The first photo shows the rear of the Q relay (which would be the aspect facing the backbox and not immediately visible). On the rear side there is a yellow-red wire that closes to a red-white wire which I didn't even see marked in red. The second photo with the coil visible is taken from the other side of the relay facing the front of the machine and shows another set of red-yellow to red white contacts nearest the coin box marked in black. My prior response was in relation to the set of contacts located within the black box and on the side with the coil visible.

However, I have now probed the other yellow-red (in the red box side) to score motor 4-C again with continuity but on a different switch. But because they are both getting continuity, I'm not sure which set is actually the set that you previously referenced but I'm starting to think that the "front" set is actually red-yellow and the back is yellow-red.

So MarkG gave me some direction and wrote: "If you jumper from the score motor yellow-red wire to the red-white wire on the other side of the 11 switches does the score motor turn?"

I jumped from the Red-white shown in the red box to the yellow-red wire and lug that is attached to the jones plug where the score motor is. (I assume that the service jack you described). The score motor DOES moves there.

Then Mark G directed to confirm score motor operation on the other relays reflected in the schematic at line #15.

With the game on, the bank reset, ball moved to position 2 or 3 so that zb was engaged, I went through each of the relays and find them as follows:

D, J, O, S, U, W, SB1-2 -- score motor moves when closing (obviously, a couple of those also reset the game -- where that happened I reset to get to the same condition). However, on E and Q the relay each locks and holds but produces no movement from the score motor.

(Again ***** merely in case it helps troubleshoot the present problem ***** here are some other abnormal behaviors drop targets are not scoring (but were previously), the top roll over switches not doing anything, the ball kicker still not engaging after Q relay locks although the ball kicker is working fine with the O relay, bonus stepper will move fine manually, at restart, or when energizing switches on 4-C but not stepping up or down during normal game play. If they are not related, and I suspect they may not be, I'll post those in other threads if I can't get it worked out).

Thanks MarkG, Rolf and everybody contributing. In the future there's going to be a lot of Gottlieb information in this thread for new guys like me from all this help. I'm past being irritated with it and you guys are tremendously generous despite having no "skin in the game."

q relay side one (resized).jpg

relay q coil side (resized).jpg

As to location -- both relays are on the bottom board not far from the score motor. The wires are tightly wound with gut so I can't see everywhere they travel but I don't see how a jones plug would be in the equation. As you suspected there's continuity on several switches on 4-C of the score motor and either of the two yellow-red wires. Most are between 4-6 ohm. However The yellow red on the back side (so it would be in the red box in the first photo) showed .2 ohm on the normally open switch at 4-C.

Both relays will release if engaged upon nudging the score motor. In comparing the switch functions listed from the manual shown in the image at response no. 19 there is a lot at 4-C that seems related to the targets, stepper, etc. is that significant?

Thanks Mark and Rolf. Finally found the gremlin. I took the bottom board out so I could better follow the location of wires, cut a few strands of gut here and there and found a cold solder problem on the E relay. Before Mark clarified the Yellow red to the service jack I mistook it as yellow red to score motor 4-C and probably would never have gotten there left to my own devices. Learned a hell of a lot though!

The game is far from perfect but the very basic systems are operating and now I can play through a whole game 1 or 2 player without some manner of score motor issue. I also solved the target bank reset issue. Corrosion on fuse holder. Took a while to find it but a simple fix once I found it. I didn't realize that was 120.

So there are a couple of remaining issues I need some help with. You guys have already served a lengthy tour of duty on this one. Would you mind if I pick your brains some more in this thread or should I start a new one? I have some scoring issues, (seems like no bonus multipliers are actually registering, for example drop target when lit is scoring nothing when it should be huge points), and the AS switch is not returning to zero after a game, and a couple of play field roll overs are doing nothing even thought the contacts are clean and adjusted. They also seem related to the bonus issue.

Again thanks so much for helping get this much solved. I thought this one was going to be relatively simple but by the end it was like Mark was doing surgery with the DiVinci robot. If I ignore the score at least the glass can finally go back on and looks nearly repaired!

Got it. Again thanks to you and to Rolf on this one.

( Rolf I'm about to post a new thread and wish to borrow a pic you posted if you don't mind regarding some scoring issues).