Out of Sight--Gottlieb Outhole kicker Problem

(Topic ID: 209773)

Out of Sight--Gottlieb Outhole kicker Problem

By 72GTO

10 months ago

Topic Stats

  • 29 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by rolf_martin_062
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders


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0Out-of-Sight-pinside-SCM-Sws (resized).jpg
relay q coil side (resized).jpg
q relay side one (resized).jpg
Manual notes for score motor (resized).jpg
score motor 4-C (resized).jpg
Out of Sight score motor 2 (resized).jpg
Out of Sight score motor (resized).jpg
high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg
high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg
0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg
0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg
Out of Sight O Q relays (resized).jpg
zero position switch (resized).jpg
0Out-of-Sight-Work-09 (resized).jpg
Out of Sight ball return (resized).jpg

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#2 10 months ago

The ball return circuitry is boxed in red:
Out of Sight ball return (resized).jpg

In the bottom circuit, the Ball Return Switch closes and fires the O/Outhole relay (after the Bonus Unit steps to zero if necessary). When the O/Outhold relay fires it closes a switch in the top circuit which should fire the Ball Return solenoid once the score motor turns and the switch at position 4C closes.

So when the ball return solenoid doesn't fire, does the O/Outhole relay fire and does the score motor turn?


#12 10 months ago

I'm having a hard time keeping up with the details and observations on this one...

It looks like the switch in your photo is the M/B switch on the Bonus Unit shown earlier, but highlighted here:
Out of Sight O Q relays (resized).jpg

The schematic confirms the maroon-yellow, blue and brown wires connected to it. And yes, it should fire either the O relay or the Q relay, but never both at the same time.

The way I think this works is that at the start of a game after reset, the Bonus unit is in the zero position and when the Ball Return switch closes, the highlighted M/B switch allows the O relay to fire which starts the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball.

During game play, the Bonus unit advances from the zero position whenever the E relay fires. (The E relay would be named in a table on the left side of the schematic which I don't have.) Once the Bonus Unit moves from the zero position, the M/B switch opens on the O relay side and closes on the Q relay side.

When the ball drains and the Ball Return switch closes again, the Q relay should fire (assuming that the Bonus Unit isn't at the zero position) which should fire up the score motor which in turn fires the Bonus Unit Subtract solenoid repeatedly until the Bonus Unit is back in the zero position.

Once back in the zero position, the M/B switch flips back to the other side, the Ball Return switch is still closed so the O relay fires which also runs the score motor and eventually kicks out the ball.

So manually step up the Bonus Unit a few clicks and close the Ball Return switch. Does the Q relay fire, score motor turn and Bonus Unit step down to the zero position?


#15 10 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

Q relay closes but the score motor isn't being activated and the bonus unit is not returning to the zero position as best I can tell.

Ok. Q fires. Check the switch on the Q relay that should start the score motor.

Out of Sight score motor (resized).jpg

The Q relay switch connects the yellow-red wire to the red-white wire.

#18 10 months ago

Ok, I'll take a step back to clarify, or for anyone else reading for whom it may not be clear.

Here's the complete score motor schematic extracted from the entire schematic:
Out of Sight score motor 2 (resized).jpg
The bottom section shows 25 volts AC coming out of the transformer. Going counterclockwise from the transformer the circuit goes through a 15 amp fuse, a normally closed Bounce switch and up the right side of the schematic (past lots of other circuits not shown) to the other section at about index 15 where the score motor details are.

The upper section shows the path to the score motor with 11 switches wired in parallel between the red-white wire (on the right side) and the yellow-red wire leading to the score motor service jack. Both electrically and functionally those 11 switches are identical in the sense that any one of them can start the score motor just by closing and letting current flow between the yellow-red and red-white wires. The order of the switches is not important and the labels are just notations to help you find the switches in the game.

Switches like these wired in parallel are analogous to OR gates in digital hardware or OR functions in software or regular expressions used by search engines. In fact you can describe the circuit as:

"The Score motor runs when the O relay fires OR when the E relay fires OR when the J relay fires OR...."

The black dots at the intersection of some wires in the schematic are just a notation for clarity to indicate when two crossing wires are electrically connected. Gottlieb schematics like this one use a black dot to indicate an electrical connection between intersecting wires. No black dot means no electrical connection. In the score motor circuit above the O and Motor 1C switches have no black dot because there is no intersection between wires. There's just a single, bent wire.

Other manufacturers have other ways of distinguishing between connected and not connected wires.

Continuing on past the 11 switches the circuit goes through a motor service jack which allows you to disconnect the score motor temporarily so it won't fire up while you're working on it. And finally the circuit gets to the score motor before returning to the other side of the transformer.

So the transformer delivers the energy in the form of electric current, the switches control where the energy gets delivered to, and the score motor (and relays and solenoids) use the energy when it gets to them to produce motion of some kind.

To circle back to your issue, the score motor is not turning when the Q relay fires. Somewhere there's a disconnect that you'll have to find using a meter or test leads or a light bulb tester. Once the score motor turns in response to the Q relay you can see at the top of the schematic above that with Q and score motor 4C switches closed the "Subtract Bonus Unit" solenoid should fire and get you back on your way.


#20 10 months ago

Whoa... One thing at a time. Let's get the score motor working before moving on. If you jumper from the score motor yellow-red wire to the red-white wire on the other side of the 11 switches does the score motor turn? If the game runs at all I think it should.

If that works, try manually activating each of the 10 relays shown in the score motor schematic (D, E, J, O, Q, etc.). You should be able to get the score motor to run by activating any one of these. We think Q won't do it but will the others? Try them all.

#22 10 months ago

Good observation: yellow-red is not the same as red-yellow. Generally the first color listed is the predominant color while the 2nd color is the tracer color. Of the two photos the 2nd one shows the yellow-red wire. The wire in the 1st photo is admittedly a tougher call.

I should point out that a continuity check with a multimeter isn't reliable enough to prove a viable connection between two points in a pinball machine. When using a meter you'll get more reliable results measuring ohms on the lowest range setting. That way you can distinguish between a dead short (which usually measures no more than an ohm or two) and some other indirect path through a coil (which usually measures over 5 ohms). Some meters will beep for continuity in both cases.

Based on your observations both the E and Q relays are locking on because they're failing to start the score motor. You can test that theory by closing each one individually, letting it lock on, then manually giving the score motor a nudge until the Score Motor Runout switch closes and the score motor runs. Then you should see the E or Q relay release.

You still need to figure out why the Q and E relay switches aren't starting the score motor. Remember that for the motor to run the yellow-red wire needs to be shorted to the red-white wire. The problem could be in the individual switches (misadjusted or loose contacts) or in the solder tabs (cold solder joint) or in a jones plug or even possibly a broken wire (the least likely unless there's visible damage).

Just a thought. Are the Q and E relays in the head? Could they have a bad jones plug connection in common?


#24 10 months ago

Yes, score motor 4C switches should subtract from the bonus unit and reset the targets. But until you can get the Q (and E) relay to start the score motor that won't happen. The 4C switch has nothing to do with getting the score motor going. It's the score motor that should activate the 4C switch.

All you need to sort out in the short term is to figure out why the Q and E relay switches don't connect the red-white wire on the right side of the schematic to the yellow-red wire that runs the score motor. Once these two start the score motor reliably then we can worry about whether or not the 4C switches are working.

#27 10 months ago

A new topic with an appropriate title would make it easier for others to find the discussion some day when researching a similar problem.

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