Can you guys help with a Gottlieb Game Over Issue

(Topic ID: 209449)

Can you guys help with a Gottlieb Game Over Issue


By 72GTO

7 months ago



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  • 26 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by 72GTO
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xb and qb relay (resized).jpg
Out of Sight player unit (resized).jpg
IMG_20180210_201223147 (resized).jpg
Out of Sight replay button (resized).jpg
ball count adjustment (resized).jpg
high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg
high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).JPG
Jumping Jack start button (resized).jpg

#1 7 months ago

I have an issue with a 73-74 2 player Gottlieb out of Sight. It was purchased as a project by its prior owner and I acquired it a month ago. So there wasn't a whole lot of history available. For my part I'm new to these, playing and owning, and learning A LOT with the help of this site and KLOV -- but this site in particular really has some amazing expertise.

I could go over a great deal of what it was doing when I got it -- there wasn't a whole lot working. However, I think I'm now down to the last three or four systems and have a general issue of the thing not ending and couple of specific questions regarding the QB and XB relays in the context of what's supposed to be shutting this thing down. Long and short of it is that I believe I'm starting, resetting, beginning play, scoring, etc. as per the usual. However the game isn't ending and QB is not engaging again after resetting. I suppose for that same reason you can't start a new game with the replay button.

So more specifically these are my observations after the last "game" I played:

power on; QB and ZB engage immediately; reset starts on score motor; score reels zero; player unit finds home; bonus unit finds home; credit stepper will add credits; U engages -- score motor stops; outhole relay kicks ball to lane.

Ball one, player one shown on backboard; upon shooting, all features working on the targets and playfield, points scoring etc. First score triggers relay ZB to close.

ball 1 drains, player one, ball 2, same as above --ZB obviously remains closed for balls 1-5.

ball 2 drains, player one, ball 3, same as above

ball 3 drains, player one, ball 4 same as above

ball 4 drains, player one, ball 5. At that point the outhole ball kicker is locked. However there's no signs that the game is over and relays QB SB and PB are still open. There is no reset at that point (is there supposed to be one?) The replay button won't then engage to restart. However, I can manually trip S relay and seems like the game functions as noted above. Notably, I don't think there's a problem in the start circuit anywhere I suspect there's something open/closed as an artifact of the prior game not ending correctly. I've had really weird behaviors that shouldn't be happening, but they disappear and behave if I restart.

I have the schematic, but because of my inexperience and the fact that the score motor is involved by action of one or more other relays at the end of game, I don't know when these relays or other ones behind them are to close and what effect that's happening on my never ending quarter. I made the mistake of chasing down connections one by one a week ago and had a serious setback to the point I couldn't reset nor would U engage nor would the player stepper unit reset. I've walked all that back to just the game over problem again. I now believe that my problem was not a contact but the state of the game was not truly at reset, power off, ball in lane -- just the control bank was reset, score was zero and I assumed everything was reset when it wasn't and was making each new decision on the decision tree based on what I saw.

Based upon the description above any suggestions to get the game to end? The manual is very descriptive of starting the game -- "replay button closes S, relay v, etc.," but says scarcely little about the role of other relays properly ending the game. I imagine to all of you this is equivalent of asking what cables go on my car battery, but I'm smart enough to take my noobie lumps now, get this repair over with once and for all, and have better informed people tell me what I'm doing wrong or what I need.

I really appreciate all the help you guys provide and look forward to a time when I might have something to contribute besides new threads. At least now I'm not having heart palpitations every time I lift the playfield!

Thanks everyone.

#2 7 months ago

Also, you can check out Clay's EM Pin Repair guides:

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm

You might want to troubleshoot the replay/start button issue first. Check the replay/start button switch circuit on the schematic. Make sure credits are showing on the credit wheel. Check the following relays and switches to see if they're clean and adjusted properly:

V relay
ZB relay
PB4 relay
W relay
Replay button switch
Zero position "Replay" unit switch - brown/white wire and green/white wire

I was working on a Far Out last summer and it had similar problems, which I had a hard time solving. It ended up that one of the score motor switch fingers had slipped off the score motor disc. This resulted in a group of switches on the score motor that weren't opening and closing properly. With the power off, turn the score motor manually and visually inspect the switches to make sure they are clean and operating properly...

#3 7 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

ball 4 drains, player one, ball 5. At that point the outhole ball kicker is locked.

Are you saying on Ball 5 that the ball is not ejected into the shooter lane? Not sure what you mean by "locked" ...

#4 7 months ago

Thanks fred and woz.

WOZ: Right, after ball 5 drains something has changed in the circuit that the next ball stays in the outhole. With the playfield up I can press the outhole relay and O relay engages, but the kicker assembly isn't loading it over the trough switch and into the shooting lane.

Fred: I have gone over Clay's EM guide line by line -- a couple of times -- and have referred to it frequently. However, I'm not aware that there's any description regarding the game over sequence for Gottlieb. I will go over it again and will look at the motor and the relays you mentioned in 2 that may be useful.

For you guys or anyone else. Can you confirm that XB is supposed to close at the closing of the trough switch on the last ball? When it closes what is it activating. Also, would you share what control bank relays are closing immediately prior to end of game, in this instance on ball 5? I really want to look over those contacts but can see that a couple are activated by contacts actually in other adjacent control bank relays.

I really really appreciate the help so far and would benefit from a little more clarification.

#5 7 months ago

I agree with fredsmythson, starting by debugging why the start button isn't working might be a little easier and might even resolve some of your other issues. Here's the start button on a Jumping Jack:
Jumping Jack start button (resized).jpg

Assuming there are credits on the game it should fire the V relay to get things started. You'll have something similar in your schematic.

Quoted from 72GTO:

Can you confirm that XB is supposed to close at the closing of the trough switch on the last ball? When it closes what is it activating. Also, would you share what control bank relays are closing immediately prior to end of game, in this instance on ball 5?

Not many will be able to answer these kinds of questions without a look at the schematic. Can you post legible, relevant parts of the schematic?

/Mark

#6 7 months ago

Does the game end properly if you set it to 3 ball play?

#7 7 months ago

Power is sent to the XB relay coil via the player unit. Make sure the player unit is advancing properly. You can turn off the power and then manually advance the player unit to see if it smoothly clicks into each position.

The ball return switch sends power to the O relay. The O relay switches would close to send power to the XB relay coil and the ball return solenoid.

When the ball goes into the outhole after ball 4, is the O relay being energized?

#8 7 months ago

As Fred says XB is activated via the player unit. By setting the game to 3 ball you are checking that part of the player unit is good ( you know its already stepping through those the positions highlighted as you are able to get to balls 4 and 5.

BTW does the Double Bonus lamp light on the last ball? That will also give you a clue as to whether the path through the player unit is OK.

Capture (resized).JPG

#9 7 months ago

And that function is off of a wiper on the back of the player unit (bakelite snow shoe wipers and rivets). Common problem is the flex wire jumper between two snow shoes breaks and the hard jumper between the slide bushings isn't good enough.

#10 7 months ago

So I have some homework. MarkG above requested portions of the schematic. Here they are and I'll report back after using the suggestions above.

high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg

high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg

#11 7 months ago

Game over on a multiplayer with player unit... look at the ball5 spring loaded shoes on the wiper of the player unit...

#12 7 months ago

First, please let me thank all of you for helping to walk me through this.

With respect to the question above regarding credits, yes there are credits on the credit stepper.

Next, I believe I moved the adjustment switch to 3-ball game as noted above. However, it still played to 5 balls then XB relay engaged (I restarted it 3-4 times) -- what is that about? I'm attaching a photo because there are three adjustments in that area and I want to confirm I got it right. However I think that has to be the one because it was the only one that had 4 selection options for 2,3,4 or 5 ball game. In any event, moving the adjustment switch still didn't move QB. The player stepper unit is moving because its showing proper ball count and was visually verified. Also, when engaged in a two player game it is moving the appropriate intermediate steps to cause player one and two to alternate.

Any other thoughts? Thanks again everybody.

ball count adjustment (resized).jpg

#13 7 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

I believe I moved the adjustment switch to 3-ball game as noted above. However, it still played to 5 balls then XB relay engaged (I restarted it 3-4 times) -- what is that about? I'm attaching a photo because there are three adjustments in that area and I want to confirm I got it right. However I think that has to be the one because it was the only one that had 4 selection options for 2,3,4 or 5 ball game.

I think the middle of the three adjustments shown above determines how many credits you get per coin, not how many balls per game. The schematic at about location 3G shows that there are only choices for 3 or 5 balls per game, which is probably what the top adjustment in the photo is for. You can confirm by checking the wire colors against the schematic.

#14 7 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

The replay button won't then engage to restart. However, I can manually trip S relay and seems like the game functions as noted above.

The replay button circuit is essentially the same as the one from repy #5 but with some different wire colors:
Out of Sight replay button (resized).jpg

If you have credits on the credit unit and the replay button isn't working, these are the switches to check. One of these may point to the problem with the way the game is ending.

#15 7 months ago

2,3,4,5 adjustment is for credits for coins, not ball count.

Ball count is often in two places on a Gottlieb. One on the underside of the playfield (changes play features). And one in the head (changes game over point).

#16 7 months ago

These are the wipers on a 4 player Hot Shot. One jumper is for ball in play light. The others handle last ball and Game over tripping.

IMG_20180210_201223147 (resized).jpg

#17 7 months ago

Alright! There are three things in just the last two posts I didn't know. I'll go back and make the correct adjustment to a three ball game. So cactusjack when you're talking about the jumpers I'll have 4 contacts on the wipers. If the wiper arm were positioned north-south I'd have two connected contacts on the north end and one or two simultaneously at the south end. When you describe one is for the play/ball unit is it the opposing end that is controlling Game Over? Or is it the same end but on the second row of disc contacts? While I cleaned everything over and over and made sure the contacts were stopping directly over the contacts, I didn't parse out that each contact was performing a different function and/or what it was.

#18 7 months ago

The easiest way I find out which is which is if the the Ball in Play lights are working, I just pull up on one of the U Jumpers (not the one where the wire goes to the solder lug under one of the spider mount screws). The light would turn on and off as you lift and drop the jumper. Then, the other one is going to be part of the last ball and Game over control.

Often, games left with back doors off, the wire colors are faded. If not, you can use wire colors to the solder lugs around the biscuit to identify the proper jumper. This is also how to "force" the relay to trip or turn on. Apply an alligator clip jumper across the two wires at the lugs that would be connected by the wipers.

#19 7 months ago

Cactusjack that's definitely useful at #18 but let make certain I understand your post at #16 above which reads:

"one jumper is for ball in play light. The others handle last ball and Game over tripping." I don't think I asked the question very artfully.

Am I correct that you're saying one pair of connected contacts at one end of the wiper are the first "jumper" and the other set of contacts on the opposing end -- the second "jumper" -- is connected (by good contact with the disc) to relay QB? Whichever contact it may be, does a wire go directly from the Player unit stepper to QB or does it go through another relay first?

Given how the player stepper functions, shouldn't I be able to move the stepper to ball five/player two on the disc and then manually step the wiper one more position to game over? Wouldn't that next opposing set of contacts in that position after player 2 ball 5 have to be the game over relay?

I'm either having an epiphany or an aneurysm but it seems like there's something new and tangible to check instead of going to the score motor XB and O relays for the 25th time.

#20 7 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

does a wire go directly from the Player unit stepper to QB or does it go through another relay first?

There isn't a direct connection between the player unit and the QB relay. The QB rely is fired by switches on the XB and O relays and another switch on the score motor at position 3C:

Out of Sight player unit (resized).jpg

The Player unit wipers (circled in red) fire the XB relay along with a bunch of other switches. If you need to identify which wipers are which, you could try to identify wire colors from the schematic, or look for the wipers that don't land on any rivets except for positions 8, 9, 16 & 17, which are probably ball 3 and ball 5 for players 1 and 2.

With the power off and your meter leads clipped to the slate-black wire on the XB relay coil and the white-green wire on the player unit you should be able to measure nearly zero resistance when the player unit is in position 16 and you manually activate the O relay.

#21 7 months ago

MarkG beat me to the punch while I was digging out a Soccer Schematic. But since it was all typed already, I will post it anyway.

You do realize that any Relay with the B added to it, is a relay on a trip bank. This means, that the relay will and can be reset via the common reset bar. And then tripped via the action of the relay armature but then typically, gets power disconnected from it once tripped so it doesn't buzz or burn up.

So, the thing about the Gottlieb ball count/player control is that things change state in the time between the ball being in the outhole and the ball making it to the shooter lane (the runway switch under the score card apron). If you look at the jumper shown earlier in the thread where the path is highlighted in yellow, the numbering of the player unit steps are shown as 8 & 9, and 16 & 17. Player 1, ball 1 is position 0. Player 1 Ball 3 is position 8, Player 2 Ball 5 is 17.

Since part of tripping the XB relay requires the closure of a switch on the O (outhole) relay, its not going to happen until after the ball rolls over the runway switch thereby changing position of the player unit to the final ball position.

I have captured what I believe to be the QB section of your posted schematic (again, late to the punch after MarkG's post). But I am using a Soccer schematic as visual reference for me. So, to trip QB, you need a set of contacts on O which closes when the ball drops into the outhole (Ball Return Switch). That XB is tripped (I think you have confirmed this already with the power up condition). Score motor 3C (happens very late in the motor cycle). And, of course, a pulse that comes from Score Motor 1A (Which is obviously working since it provides 5 pulses to many other things.

Since QB appears to work due to the reflex of it getting tripped from power up (Through itself and the R (hold) relay), we know the coil is good.

And, as was pointed out earlier, the lack of the replay button working is due to a normally open switch on ZB. So, unless ZB gets tripped, you can't start another game (until you power down and repower and let the open state of the R relay to trip ZB immediately.

Use a jumper (or multiple jumpers) to jump across each of the switches (or wiper rivet lugs) in play to see if you can trip ZB. You may have to manually reset the trip bank but that may trigger another game reset cycle each time.

#22 7 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

any Relay with the B added to it, is a relay on a trip bank.

Wow. I can't believe I haven't put that together before. (Or maybe I knew it and forgot which is also quite possible... I think the B suffix also includes interlock relays, so maybe it's for any relay that holds its last state without power.

#23 7 months ago

From what little I am familiar with, I think they typically used X for relays that are single trip latch style (Infamous AX relays!).

But on Soccer, the have some x relays as part of the "Control Bank" which is a trip bank.

Later, they introduced the "Coin Unit" which tallied purchased players and replaced the need for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th player relays in a 4 player game.

#24 7 months ago

Thanks you guys. It's amazing how simple you explain this.

I do need a little clarification though.

MarkG and C-Jack, you both explained that the Player Unit does not connect directly to QB. I believe I understand from you both that the Player unit does however connect directly to XB. So I pulled out my DMM to check the continuity that MarkG suggested between the player unit stepper and XB. However, I don't have a slate-blk wire at XB. I don't know how clear it is in the photo but I have red-wht; wht-br; bk-rd on XB. But I DO have a sl-blk on the far side of QB relay by the wt-sl wire.

So it occurred to me, XB relay is already pulling/dropping at Ball 5. Doesn't that necessarily mean that I have continuity on that portion of the circuit? I'm just not getting something from the score motor or O relay to QB or a contact from XB -- am I wrong?

If I might not have continuity and still need to check, what wire should I be checking on XB relay or should it be the SL-BLK wire on QB?

C-Jack -- I did NOT know that designations ending in B are control bank. That makes sense though -- although I still don't understand why relay LB is designated as the first ball and not last ball as you would intuitively think. Also, you both called it. The 2,3,4,5 adjustment was for credits.

xb and qb relay (resized).jpg

#25 7 months ago
Quoted from 72GTO:

So I pulled out my DMM to check the continuity that MarkG suggested between the player unit stepper and XB. However, I don't have a slate-blk wire at XB

Quoted from 72GTO:

So it occurred to me, XB relay is already pulling/dropping at Ball 5. Doesn't that necessarily mean that I have continuity on that portion of the circuit?

The slate-black wire is on the solder lug of the XB relay coil, not on one of the switches controlled by the XB relay. The test was meant to see if you're getting XB to fire but since you are, we can move on.

Quoted from 72GTO:

I'm just not getting something from the score motor or O relay to QB or a contact from XB -- am I wrong?

Since XB is firing, you just need to sort out why QB isn't firing. The top bit of the schematic in reply #20 has the QB circuit. Clip a test lead to the yellow-black wire on the QB relay coil solder lug. Then with the power off work your way back with through the three switches. Start with the orange-white wire on the far side of the score motor 3C switch. Slowly turn the score motor by hand and see if you get near zero ohms (not just continuity) through that switch. If/when you do, leave the motor where it is (with the 3C switch closed) and check the resistance at the brown-white wire on the far side of the XB relay switch. Manually activate XB and see if you get that same near zero resistance. Repeat the process for the O relay switch.

#26 7 months ago

MarkG and C-Jack. Thanks to you both so much. I went backwards and forwards a few times starting all the way back with the contact at motor 1(a) through motor 3(C) through XB back to O and back to QB. Seems to have it now. The LB relay is being a little finicky with a contact adjustment issue when the bank is physically reset in the rack its attached to but a little tweaking and we should be there.

If I can impose just once more I'm having another very curious issue I'm posting under another thread involving the outhole kicker. So long as the playfield is propped up it literally works all the time -- 100% percent of the time. However when the playfield is lock down it doesn't want to fire. I'll describe more in that thread. What would you suggest and would you mind posting it under "Out of Sight--Gottlieb outhole kicker problem."

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