(Topic ID: 166828)

Should Schematics Be Free?

By JoeNewberry

7 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 65 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Insane
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Should Schematics Be Free?”

  • No, retailers have a right to profit from their intellectual property. 22 votes
    25%
  • Yes, the copyrights are expired and unenforceable. 50 votes
    56%
  • Maybe, if the owners can be properly compensated for the loss of future sales. 1 vote
    1%
  • Who cares? I get whatever I need from whomever or wherever it takes. 16 votes
    18%

(89 votes)

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#4 7 years ago

Patents expire, but copyrights remain in place for a long, long time.

However, I am in favor of the right to repair and have documentation and parts available to those who want them. Thankfully, documentation for most pins is available in some form or another.

As far as Gottlieb goes, it's annoying and can be expensive (especially if you have to shell out 15-20 bucks for pretty much each game you might own), but at least they're available.

https://www.eff.org/issues/right-to-repair
http://ifixit.org/right
http://repair.org/legislation/

self-repair_manifesto_1650x2550_(resized).jpgself-repair_manifesto_1650x2550_(resized).jpg

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Most of the online schematics are hard to read anyway.

Unfortunately, this is the case a lot of the time. I try to acquire originals if I can and then try to scan them when I have time.

I just scanned all the Allied Leisure schematics I had and uploaded them to IPDB...just waiting on them for them to be approved and published on the page.

#13 7 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

I prefer to work off electronic versions.

I like each format for different reasons. Digital files for convenience. I can't even recall how many times I've gone to IPDB and downloaded a manual on the fly, or referenced my own digital archives. I like hard copies for careful study and casual perusing.

Quoted from xsvtoys:

The ultimate would be to completely redraw a schematic as a pristine digital vector file, in something like Visio or a cad program. I have done some sections that way. It's a lot of work though.

There's a risk of introducing new errors into the schematic when doing that.

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

Sure you would want to avoid that. Here is the flip side - you can correct errors in the original. Well, I am new to the hobby so I do have limited experience yet. So far I have just looked at Bally Bon Voyage in detail. I can confirm that that It has at least three fairly significant errors, including one mislabeled score motor switch so here are 2 that are labeled the same. This kind of thing could drive you crazy if you happen to be troubleshooting that one part.

Yep, I've spotted errors too. It happens. Sometimes there are revisions for the schematics, and sometimes a note in a service bulletin.

Sometimes there was a change mid-production if an issue was discovered or a part needed to be substituted due to availability or expense.

Quoted from xsvtoys:

My assumption is that these schematics were originally hand drawn. Cad software and the printers didn't come around until somewhere around the early 80s. So you just have one hand drawn original and maybe the proofreading was a bit lax. On top of that, if you do make an error, it would be a pain to fix. You can't just delete and correct like you can with a computer file.

As long as it was a minor correction not needing a significant redraw, it could be corrected fairly invisibly.

However, I've seen printed schematics that had obvious corrections prior to being printed.

Up until the late 80s or early 90s, most drafting in all industries was done by hand. Then everything starting being done in CAD programs.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

The drawback with many of the downloadable schematics (especially the Bally solid states) is that people don't have a scanner that can do 11 x 17 size pages. They simply scan sections then you print it out and cut & tape it back together and hope things line up or there are no missing portions.
Thank goodness there are some people who have been able to scan the 11 x 17 pages full size and in the correct resolution (for sharpness). Then I take the scan to Kinko's on a jump drive and print out there.

When doing a fresh scan of a large schematic, I use my hp 4670 and stitch them in photoshop.

#29 7 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Any of the new Stern machines.

At all? Or just no hard copies?

#30 7 years ago
Quoted from TimMe:

Personally, I'm happy to send PBR money for a schematic, and for anything else I need to bring a decades-old machine back to life. That's because I want places like PBR to be prosperous and to stay in business for a long, long time. To me, complaining about paying for a schematic - or for a ramp with Williams artwork on it, for that matter - feels too much like I'm rooting for the failure of the very businesses that support us.

If *every* manufacturer charged for paperwork, there might not be as much resistance with Gottlieb materials. Gottlieb is just the odd-man-out.

As for artwork, part of the problem is that there are people hungry for parts that just aren't being produced--and can't be produced because of the lack of licensor approval--because of 3rd-party image licensing issues (in licensed themes), the licensor simply wanting way too much money (thus making the project infeasible), an official exclusive licensee producing sub-par products and the licensor blocking others from making a better product, or an licensor blocking anyone else from producing because it's "coming soon" even if it's actually several years to never in the making.

#33 7 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

When you buy a new Stern machine, they throw in about 6 black & white photocopied pages of the software programming features and call it a "manual". Then you go to their website and say you have a Ghostbusters pinball, you go to that page and click on manuals. It either does nothing or it simply says "not available".
The only sure way to get a complete manual WITH schematics is to go to your local Stern Pinball distributor's parts department and plunk down $50 to buy a genuine authorized complete manual. It really pisses me off when a company plunks down $7,000 on a new Stern pinball and you're forced to BUY a fucking manual to fix the machine. It should have been included in the machine for free!

I just tried it. It looks like it won't load in Firefox for some reason, but it opens fine in Chrome.

http://sternpinball.com/games/ghostbusters/pro
http://sternpinball.com/upload/games/ghostbusters/pro/1959/Ghostbusters_Pro_web.pdf

[edit]: No board schematics, though

#34 7 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

if you need the schematics, then you will also need parts
i think it is in the best interest of the parts suppliers to provide the schematic

This. And I see this problem a lot with Gottlieb games. Many times on the forums, there have been posts about people not knowing what parts to order because they didn't have a manual.

Plus, you also usually need the parts catalog too.

#36 7 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

So if you buy a used car and the owners manual isn't there, do you expect GM (or whomever) to have it available for you free of charge?

A digital version, yes. Which they do--just pick the year, make, and model:

https://my.gmc.com/learn

I have no qualms about paying for a printed copy because there are printing costs, after all. But these days, a digital copy should be free and readily available.

Plus, hard copies will go out of print eventually. Someone might not be able to obtain a copy a few years down the road. It isn't really very resource intensive to host and distribute a digital file.

#56 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Anytime I pull out an old CD-R, they don't work anymore. Especially the dark green 3M ones.
The dyes seem to only last 10 years or so.
If anyone is storing important photos or docs on CDR or DVD-R, I'd suggest you copy them over to some other format - NOW.

Most of the cheap in-store brands don't last too long, unfortunatley. CDs/DVD don't last forever.

I bought TDK and Verbatim media, and those discs seem to have held up well. Some of the memorex stuff I have has also held up well.

#58 7 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

ForceFlow - You are an Pinside Moderator - may I ask You here - it is about an remark that TimMe made in his post-28 - PBR beeing forced to have an eye on "us not giving away / not to show schematics in public" - otherwise they may loose their license:
AAA: Is the owner of a pin allowed to show snippets of HIS Gottlieb-Schematics when asking for help here in pinside ? A total of XYZ percents of the complete schematics , XYZ is what ? (is 5 percent OK ?)

I have no idea what the terms of the license agreement are, or if PBR simply has carte blanche in regards to the handling and sale of documentation.

I have posted snippets of pages here and there to help out other pinsiders. I'm not quite sure if that falls under fair use or not, but PBR hasn't seemed to be bothered by it.

A few times when I was trying to figure out a part number, PBR has emailed me images of specific drawings of parts assemblies when I didn't have the manual handy. I'm not sure if they do that with everybody or not.

#61 7 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

Oh you are taking me back to the floppy days, bless your heart!
Yes I know, all media has its problems. I saw a very interesting show about the national archives. What a full time mess that has to be.

I still have a small stack of floppies stored away, though that's only what's leftover after throwing away most of them. The older ones were actually more reliable. The ones made in the early 2000s and later seemed to have high failure rates. I'd usually see 2 or 3 bad ones in a pack of 25. By that point, CDs, DVDs, and USB flash drives were taking over, so it didn't really matter too much.

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