I think that some are to busy trying to make more profit and if I can help someone as others have helped me,whether it be a phone pic,photo copy,email,fax whatever to get the game up and running,I don't really care.They need to stop treating this info like it's classified.
Mike

I think it's better to be able to purchase a schematic for a 50-60+ year old machine than not have one available at all.

Plus, the one place that keeps these on file sells most of their other parts much cheaper than everywhere else.

PBR does not only sell Gottlieb schematics, but also has them for Williams games that I couldn't find any where else. I mean where else could I get one for my 1948 Speed Way or 1950 Pinky? I am sure glad this service is available. And I don't mind paying a few bucks to get them.

Most of the online schematics are hard to read anyway.

Patents expire, but copyrights remain in place for a long, long time.

However, I am in favor of the right to repair and have documentation and parts available to those who want them. Thankfully, documentation for most pins is available in some form or another.

As far as Gottlieb goes, it's annoying and can be expensive (especially if you have to shell out 15-20 bucks for pretty much each game you might own), but at least they're available.

https://www.eff.org/issues/right-to-repair
http://ifixit.org/right
http://repair.org/legislation/

self-repair_manifesto_1650x2550_(resized).jpg

Unfortunately, this is the case a lot of the time. I try to acquire originals if I can and then try to scan them when I have time.

I just scanned all the Allied Leisure schematics I had and uploaded them to IPDB...just waiting on them for them to be approved and published on the page.

It's great to be able to order a hardcopy of a schematic, but when you are overseas and it may take a month to get it; or you are called out on a service run and there is no manual in the game - not being able to D/L a copy sucks ass.

To be fair to those who invested in the copyright, they did so to make a profit, but also are doing a lot to ensure that these things are preserved.

Would be interesting to see how much the they paid, my guess is it wasn't cheap and probably at a time when almost nobody wanted them, and if I could guess, long before the upswing we're seeing now.

It would be interesting to see these owners put these up for community ownership via sale. For example, set a price on the license, kickstarter for that amount, no individuals reward just agreement to allow public use without restriction. I doubt there's enough interested parties to spend enough to make that happen, but maybe they will give them over to public domain one day.

Personally, I do not mind paying a few bucks for a scheme of a game when needed. I am happy to know that there is a source to get them from and that source should be compensated for making that available to me. If I have the money to buy the game, then I probably have the money to procure the scheme.

It would be great if, like in other industries, you could pay for a pristine download instantly, followed by a hardcopy delivery.

It stinks to have to shell out $15.00 for the privilege of fixing your own game, but its a fee I gladly pay. I look at it as ordering a print or a poster...it's a piece of artwork. I buy incomplete games all the time, and have to hunt for a unique part or two...the schematic, if missing, is just one of those missing "parts". I'll always opt for finding an original before shelling out for a PBR copy...the printing at the folds of Mr. Young's repros is always hit or miss.

The amount of free schematics provided online offsets the Gottlieb ones that I have to pay for.

I prefer to work off electronic versions. But I have purchased the hard copy as well when I didn't get one with the machine purchase. I'm ok with it, I think the price is reasonable.

The ultimate would be to completely redraw a schematic as a pristine digital vector file, in something like Visio or a cad program. I have done some sections that way. It's a lot of work though.

I like each format for different reasons. Digital files for convenience. I can't even recall how many times I've gone to IPDB and downloaded a manual on the fly, or referenced my own digital archives. I like hard copies for careful study and casual perusing.

There's a risk of introducing new errors into the schematic when doing that.

Let me put it to you this way, i work on elevators/escalators/other lifts and when we take a unit over on service and the schematics are gone, you cant fix it if and when you run into some weird stuff, I alert the customer that the schematics are gone and most likely the previous company took them to make us look bad to get the job back. What are you todo? You are buying a product and have the RIGHT for a 3rd party to fix it, that approaches impossibility when schematics arent even provided with the new games which is bullshit.

Gottlieb put two schematics in every '70's EM. Bally & Williams & Chicago Coin gave you one. Bally, Williams & Chicago Coin supplied schematics for free when you wrote them (pre-internet and long-distance calls were a big deal back then). The Detroit Williams distributor gave me schematics at no charge.

Sure you would want to avoid that. Here is the flip side - you can correct errors in the original. Well, I am new to the hobby so I do have limited experience yet. So far I have just looked at Bally Bon Voyage in detail. I can confirm that that It has at least three fairly significant errors, including one mislabeled score motor switch so there are 2 that are labeled the same. This kind of thing could drive you crazy if you happen to be troubleshooting that one part.

I'm not sure if this is the case with the other older schematics. But I did see one thread where a schematic error caused some troubleshooting grief. I think it was ryanclaytors rebuild thread.

My assumption is that these schematics were originally hand drawn. Cad software and the printers didn't come around until somewhere around the early 80s. So you just have one hand drawn original and maybe the proofreading was a bit lax. On top of that, if you do make an error, it would be a pain to fix. You can't just delete and correct like you can with a computer file.

On a related note, the manual for Bon Voyage is absolutely riddled with errors. Some if it is sloppy editing or writing, and then you have the same issues. No computer, no word processor, just paper and a typewriter.

Yep, I've spotted errors too. It happens. Sometimes there are revisions for the schematics, and sometimes a note in a service bulletin.

Sometimes there was a change mid-production if an issue was discovered or a part needed to be substituted due to availability or expense.

As long as it was a minor correction not needing a significant redraw, it could be corrected fairly invisibly.

However, I've seen printed schematics that had obvious corrections prior to being printed.

Up until the late 80s or early 90s, most drafting in all industries was done by hand. Then everything starting being done in CAD programs.

The drawback with many of the downloadable schematics (especially the Bally solid states) is that people don't have a scanner that can do 11 x 17 size pages. They simply scan sections then you print it out and cut & tape it back together and hope things line up or there are no missing portions.

Thank goodness there are some people who have been able to scan the 11 x 17 pages full size and in the correct resolution (for sharpness). Then I take the scan to Kinko's on a jump drive and print out there.

When doing a fresh scan of a large schematic, I use my hp 4670 and stitch them in photoshop.

I think the schematics I order are always better than the ones downloaded. I really don't mind as long as it's a readable copy. PBR is a great resource for the hobby and I'll gladly buy the paperwork to contribute to keeping them in business. It cracks me up that people will spend so much money on glueing action figures to their game, but buying a schematic for 15 bucks is robbery lol.

Right, if you have pretty much any half decent scanner, some time and patience, and a reasonable amount of photoshop skilz you can make a decent e copy. It takes a bit of work to do the stitching properly but it's not too hard. I also did some cleaning up of some of the stuff on the original hard copy such as fixing areas where the folds are, cleaning up some smudges, etc.

With a nice e version I can look at it on the big monitor on a computer, or on a tablet if I'm loafing on the couch, AND make some printouts if I want them to take to the machine to look at, mark up, and take notes on.

Indeed.

The real scheisters are those that feel the need to remove the original schematics and manuals before they sell a game. Then put them up for sale on a place like e-bay. I'm still glad replacements are available.

Photoshop will auto-stitch the scans for you.

File > Automate > Photomerge

What new games do not have schematics?

Any of the new Stern machines.

I own two Gottlieb EMs from the 70s. I gladly ordered the schematic for one of them. The other one actually still had the original one taped to the lightbox door when I got it a year ago.

Thanks was unaware.

I think it's important to understand how licensing works. The entities who are the intellectual property (IP) owners of material related to pinball are usually not involved in the pinball community or in any pinball business. This is especially true for artwork and schematics - the kind of stuff that a lot of Pinsiders care about - for older machines. And by older, I mean anything manufactured before 2001.

To make this material available to us, someone with a business that provides stuff to our community buys a license to sell us the stuff from the IP owner. These businesses do this because they want to make a profit - of course - but also because they are part of our community, they know what stuff people are asking for, and they want the community to have access to it.

I think what a lot of Pinsiders don't understand is that the license can be taken away from the business if the IP owner decides that the business is not protecting THEIR material from being used without permission. So the business gets stuck in the middle of all this. They need to try to attract customers and make a profit by selling the material, AND they need to jump on anyone reproducing the material without a license to do so.

Personally, I'm happy to send PBR money for a schematic, and for anything else I need to bring a decades-old machine back to life. That's because I want places like PBR to be prosperous and to stay in business for a long, long time. To me, complaining about paying for a schematic - or for a ramp with Williams artwork on it, for that matter - feels too much like I'm rooting for the failure of the very businesses that support us.

- TimMe

At all? Or just no hard copies?

If *every* manufacturer charged for paperwork, there might not be as much resistance with Gottlieb materials. Gottlieb is just the odd-man-out.

As for artwork, part of the problem is that there are people hungry for parts that just aren't being produced--and can't be produced because of the lack of licensor approval--because of 3rd-party image licensing issues (in licensed themes), the licensor simply wanting way too much money (thus making the project infeasible), an official exclusive licensee producing sub-par products and the licensor blocking others from making a better product, or an licensor blocking anyone else from producing because it's "coming soon" even if it's actually several years to never in the making.

When you buy a new Stern machine, they throw in about 6 black & white photocopied pages of the software programming features and call it a "manual". Then you go to their website and say you have a Ghostbusters pinball, you go to that page and click on manuals. It either does nothing or it simply says "not available".

The only sure way to get a complete manual WITH schematics is to go to your local Stern Pinball distributor's parts department and plunk down $50 to buy a genuine authorized complete manual. It really pisses me off when a company plunks down $7,000 on a new Stern pinball and you're forced to BUY a fucking manual to fix the machine. It should have been included in the machine for free!

the game came with the schematics when new, they should have stayed with the game
that they didn't, you should not be penalized

if you need the schematics, then you will also need parts
i think it is in the best interest of the parts suppliers to provide the schematic

I just tried it. It looks like it won't load in Firefox for some reason, but it opens fine in Chrome.

http://sternpinball.com/games/ghostbusters/pro
http://sternpinball.com/upload/games/ghostbusters/pro/1959/Ghostbusters_Pro_web.pdf

[edit]: No board schematics, though

This. And I see this problem a lot with Gottlieb games. Many times on the forums, there have been posts about people not knowing what parts to order because they didn't have a manual.

Plus, you also usually need the parts catalog too.

So if you buy a used car and the owners manual isn't there, do you expect GM (or whomever) to have it available for you free of charge?

A digital version, yes. Which they do--just pick the year, make, and model:

https://my.gmc.com/learn

I have no qualms about paying for a printed copy because there are printing costs, after all. But these days, a digital copy should be free and readily available.

Plus, hard copies will go out of print eventually. Someone might not be able to obtain a copy a few years down the road. It isn't really very resource intensive to host and distribute a digital file.

As a business owner, you are in it to make money
you want people to spend money
people will spend more money if you make it easy for them

Free schematics
free parts catalogs
easy to use website
easy payment system
not screw people over on postage

Easy, aint it

Not to be a jerk but in all seriousness you hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer. I personally and some others I know will spend far more money with a seller that makes it fast and convenient and most of all helpful by not treating the knowledge or info as classified.
Mike

I'd almost think of it the same as renting a movie, but really on older pins I'd take whatever gets to me quicker to get the damn thing fixed. Same if you can get a printout of a drop target sticker. How much money and effort would you want to put into a $500 pin before you'll never see the $$$ again?

The 1st 2 games I bought had the users manual and schematics w/them. All games should come w/them. I hate it when you look at a game and ask about the manual and some Barney generation dumbass says "you can get them online"..............then why haven't you already and printed it out???????

My take is this, and its solely my opinion. I have 0 issues buying the schematic from PBR, i have bought for my Williams and Gottliebs. I ordered some bulbs, a re-ring kit and a schematic/manual. If someone has purchased/owns the rights and they are making them available for purchase and isn't just sitting on them that is fine. I agree sometimes when you are working on something, and just need to double check something, online would be nice. It would also be cool if as Vid said, you could buy an instant download, and then get the hard copy. There are a ton of people in the world that think all knowledge/information should be free, and i am guilty of that to some extent as well. A lot of people complain about their website, and way of doing business. Is it always the most convenient, no, but when Steve is gone, we will have lost an irreplaceable asset. Same thing on the Arcade side with Bob Roberts. These are people who have so much knowledge. It's really not that big of a deal to make a phone call, or send an email to place an order. And usually if you are genuinely nice, and polite, people go out of their way to help. If they say you don't have pn's explain that is why you are ordering the manual/schematic. Also these are people that once you have ordered from them they will send out your order and let you mail them a check etc when you get it. Oh no i have to go to the post office, or write a check. Not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Sorry for the long post. I get a little long winded sometimes....

@Insane, try paying if you do not live in the USA

I don't live in America, so my personal cheques won't work. The last time I went to the bank to get one made up in US currency, it took two tellers to do it, as it was such a rare thing.
I have not been able to get an international money order from the post office for ten years

Hi
I do not mind paying some money to get an printed schematics. I am thankful I can get any form of "schematics".
IF (if) I do have an schematics I (too often, shame on me) happily do complain "lousy quality, hard to read letters and numbers, obviously a print made from a scanned and worked-over original- mybe scanning and working-over done several times" - many ways to complain.

I believe "In every pin there should be the schematics and (if the manufacturer has made) the manual.
I believe: Selling copies of schematics is a SERVICE to us - would be interesting when PBR would tell us the percentages "X percent of the money we take-in is from selling schematics --- and Y percent is from selling parts" - my wild guessing: X=2...5, Y=98...95.

ForceFlow - You are an Pinside Moderator - may I ask You here - it is about an remark that TimMe made in his post-28 - PBR beeing forced to have an eye on "us not giving away / not to show schematics in public" - otherwise they may loose their license:
AAA: Is the owner of a pin allowed to show snippets of HIS Gottlieb-Schematics when asking for help here in pinside ? A total of XYZ percents of the complete schematics , XYZ is what ? (is 5 percent OK ?)
BBB: The owner does not have a schematics - I happen to have a schematics - same question - XYZ is ?

I am willing to help - no problem to show snippets of ipdb-schematics (and tell it is taken from ipdb) - but I always feel uncomfortable showing*** Gottlieb stuff. I'd appreciate If You do tell us / me about "showing Gottlieb stuff".

showing***: I help myself on my feelings - I show as little / few as possible - I clean out not relates Score-Motor letters and numbers - I "clean out" not related wire-colors --- so it is clearly "helping on a specific problem" - it is NOT showing the schematics. Greetings Rolf

Rolf, in the USA your process of showing "snippets" of copyrighted schematics most likely would be OK under the Fair Use doctrine. You are only using a portion of the copyrighted work, you are not doing it for profit, you are not affecting the ability of the copyright owner to make a profit...these are some of the tests. Of course like all such legal things it is best to confirm with an expert attorney if there is doubt.

The situation in other countries is convoluted by all sorts of different laws per country and various treaties and such. I'm not too familiar with all of those details.

I have only bought one manual in my lifetime and that was for a Heathkit rejuvenator.

Downloading works for me when I don't have a hard copy. Yeah, some of the quality is meh, but you can usually decifer enough to be useful.

Two observations from this thread.

First, i don't see many musicians or artists posting on this thread. There seem to be many on pinside, but have skipped this topic. I doubt they would side on the free access idea of the issue. If I missed you and you disagree, I'd love to hear your opinion in that context.

Second, there is a large percentage of posters on this thread that haven't donated to Pinside for all the 'free information' they get. So are we as a group freeloaders just trying to rationalize our decisions.

One argument people are making is the easy access needed, which does not equate to being free. If someone set up an iSchematics service, some would still find another excuse and another way to get information for free.

I agree the free exchange of information and knowledge is good for the hobby and most things in life. But the key word there is exchange, not the word free. It means that both parties receive value from sharing something. If PBR or other companies see value in providing the information, like generating more sales, then that's great. However, this can't be decided by the one side of the transaction who is the only one getting something out of it.

I have scanned and digitally cleaned up my own hard copies of the Gottlieb 1960, 1964, and 1976 Parts catalogs. I can verify that none of them have any copyright notices.

I have a little difficulty relating the 'free' sharing of pinball schematics to the 'free' sharing of music.
I'd classify music as data that one listens to for enjoyment. That should not be free because the musician worked hard to produce it.
A 1965 pinball schematic is anything but enjoyment reading. It would be applicable to the person that OWNS that 1965 pinball machine and needs to reference the documentation in order to fix that pinball machine. The documentation should have stayed with the machine in the first place. It's unfortunate that the documentation often parts ways with the hardware. But in and of itself, a schematic isn't art that I'm going to frame on the wall nor is it something I'm going to read for pleasure.

I do not have any problem with purchasing a Gottlieb schematic to get a hard copy. But just for a quick reference to answer a question I have, it's unfortunate to have to go through the expense, since it should have come with the pinball machine I'm working on.

As a musician, I will tell you that the ONLY money I see is my ASCAP royalty checks a couple times a year, because I am credited with writing the songs.

Artists do not receive performance royalties for musical works (ASCAP/BMI/SESAC) unless they wrote the song. So, Rihanna does not earn performance royalties in musical works when you listen to her on the radio or in a coffee house.

Unless you are selling 500,000 units a year, the record company will not pay you a dime for sales.

The only money you will see is the airplay/jukebox ASCAP checks - and that's ONLY if you are the songwriter.

That's why I tell all bands who are just getting started: Do NOT list the entire band as the songwriters. If you wrote the song, then list ONLY yourself as the songwriter.

If your royalties are $60,000 paid 2x a year, and you listed your whole 5 piece band as the songwriters, you just cut your check down to $12,000.

Long after you have all gone your separate ways, long after the bass player has OD and died, you are still losing all that money to the drummer (who sure did not write any part of the lyrics or melody), the bass player's widow (who was always a bitch), and the singer.......you get the idea.

Since the label does not pay me any longer, I always encourage people to pirate my music as much as they can.