(Topic ID: 127744)

Seeking switch matrix experts -- weird things happening

By Nokoro

8 years ago


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  • 96 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by robertmee
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider terryb.
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#2 8 years ago

If all of the switches are open it is unlikely to be the typical diode problem unless one of the caps is shorted or the cap lead is touching part of the switch.

Measure the voltage at each of the columns and see if there is any variance. The symptoms don't exactly match a locked on column, but it's still possible.

A logic probe would be better if you have one.

#5 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Thanks. I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Can you tell me what you mean by locked on column and what measuring the voltage will show?

The column signals are pulsed. If the signal is locked on (or stuck high) it will cause symptoms similar to what you are seeing. The sequence of pulses is what tells the system which column has been triggered. If the column is always high then the game will think every switch in the column has been pulsed, which in one case matches your symptoms.

If the signal is high rather than pulsed, that column will read a higher voltage than the other columns. Again a logic probe is the preferred method of test, but a meter will give some indication of an issue.

The problem at the moment is that the symptoms are very inconsistent and conflicting to some degree. Some symptoms point at a column stuck high, some point at a diode problem and some point at a row problem.

So let's start with the columns and then move through the possibilities.

Have you worked on the game recently, either repair or installed led's?

Nice explanation of the problem, btw.

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

To measure the voltage, can I do it anywhere along the column, or do I have to do it at one particular place?

Do you have a better image of the switch matrix and I'll point out where to test. From what I can see it looks like the rows and columns are laid out differently than wpc (for example), but I can't read enough to tell.

Quoted from Nokoro:

Is this then a board problem?

Yes.

#14 8 years ago

OK, let's change our terminology to send (normally called column) and receive lines (normally called row). The send lines are on the left and the receive lines are at the bottom.

Now that I can see the matrix better (plus the additional symptoms you've spotted) I'm suspecting it is a receive (row) problem.

Remove CJ4 and jumper from pin 10 to pin 13 and see which switches indicate closed. This will narrow it down to a board or playfield problem, although it really looks like a board problem at this point.

#17 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

I see J4 and can remove that. What do you mean by "jumper from pin 10 to pin 13"? Do you mean physically connect them, like with alligator clips? Are the pins labeled? This makes me a little nervous, so I want to make sure I understand exactly what you are saying.
Also, what is this test designed to do? It helps me if I know the reasons for these things. Thanks!

No problem, best to be careful when jumpering things. Pin 1 should be labeled on the board. Yes I mean physically connect the two pins with a jumper. Just jumper it for a couple of seconds and you should see the switch closure indications.

By jumpering from pins 10 to 13 we are simulating the closure of the Rocket R switch. If you look at the matrix you will see pin 10 goes to one side of the switch and pin 13 to the other side of the switch.

If you get multiple switch closures then we know the problem is on the board since we've bypassed all of the playfield wiring.

#24 8 years ago

This is really odd. It's not the board based on your tests and it doesn't sound like the typical "box" type problem, unless one of the caps is shorted, but then that should show up a a closed switch. I'm thinking out loud here.

Check each of the send (column) wires at the connector for a short to ground. I'm not sure that could cause these symptoms, but it's worth checking. Also check the receive lines at the connector for a short.

If you could pick up a logic probe there are some other tests we can do. I can walk you through using the logic probe.

http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Electronics-LP-560-Logic-Probe/dp/B000Z9HAP4/ref=sr_1_1

#30 8 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I think terry and I are on the same page....It's a stumper.

Yes it is. Especially the part where the number of false indications will fluctuate each time the test is done.

Quoted from Nokoro:

Remembering that I'm new at this, are you talking about checking the wires on the female J4 connector? How do I use my multimeter to check for a short to ground? Thanks again!

Game off, meter set to diode/continuity and check from each column wire to ground and each row wire to ground. Yes at CJ4, pull the plug and test.

#34 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

So, I put one probe in the female connector on CJ4 and another probe on the ground braid, right? No connectivity would be a good thing, right? Connectivity would indicate that something is wrong, like a short?

Connectivity would be a bad thing.

The switch matrix will either make you a better man or break you. In spite of that I'm sad to see it go away on Spike.

#37 8 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

The only plausible explanation is that you've got a short in one of the holding caps across the switches. That's the only other path if you are sure all switches are open.

We're kind of left with Robert's suggestion about the caps--not much else under the playfield. I would think a shorted cap would show up as a closed switch, but I could be wrong. Just test across the caps for a short as you did before.

#41 8 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Also, terry, isn't the Bally switch matrix drawn rotated by conventional terms?

Yes, and the layout on the matrix is not helping at all. I've found myself getting confused a couple of times because of it, and have tried to call them send and receive instead of row and column.

Quoted from robertmee:

OP, can you pull the connector and using a meter, check for continuity between pins 12, 13 and 14 on the connector to the PF (not pins on board). If you have any continuity, you've found the source of your problem.

Good idea Robert.

Quoted from robertmee:

They aren't electrolytic and polarized are they?

Just radials. I think they should be checked as you suggested though, at this point we're looking for anything to provide some direction.

Quoted from Nokoro:

So I should put one end of the probe on either side of the cap, is that right? Can I do this inline? Wouldn't there be continuity on the caps? How would a shorted cap read on the multimeter? What should I look for?

One lead on each side. Inline is fine as long as the switch is open. When you first put the lead on the cap it should read low and then increase. If it's shorted you will just get a low reading just like you would checking a wire.

#45 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

When I checked off of the connector, I stuck one of the leads on multimeter to the ground braid and the other on the connector. Does it matter which section or piece of the ground braid I choose? Is it all connected?

Should be good, but I would double check by testing from the ground braid to a ground on one of the boards. You never know if someone has disconnected part of the ground braid. As a general rule I always make sure I've got a good reading before moving on to a questionable reading.

#50 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Thanks, but how do I identify the ground on the boards? (Sorry for all of the newbie questions.)

No problem. I'm not sure if the bally boards have test points, but that would be the first place I would look for a ground. If not check the schematics, there will be ground on most of the connectors.

Robert beat me to it, and his answer was much better.

#65 8 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Are there any metal ramps or habitrails in this game? I had a switch that was touching a habitrail once. Sometimes the habitrail would vibrate enough to touch the metal hinge bolt in the cabinet that was grounded. The metal habitrails acted as a ground path to the switch and caused all sorts of switch matrix issues.

Exactly this^^^

But just in case, make sure the cabinet has a good ground. In the situation above you would be providing a path to ground. The opposite possibility is that the cabinet ground is floating/shorted to something besides ground and you are injecting a signal into the switch matrix.

Also be aware that based on this info when we tested whether the board was bad by jumpering that was an invalid test. I still think Robert is right on, but we now know that we did not eliminate any possible board issues.

I'm just thinking out loud.

#67 8 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Then I measured resistance between various switches and the cabinet side rail. Again, in all cases continuity. That seems wrong.

It is.

Quoted from Nokoro:

Finally, I removed CJ4 and measured resistance between the switches and the cabinet side rail. No continuity that time.

Remove CJ4 and check continuity from the board side of the connector to ground. Check all send and receive lines.

#74 8 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Not following you here...I'm still thinking nothing is wrong with the board.

If the problem relates to current flowing through his body to ground, that would not likely have occurred unless when doing the CPU jumper test he was touching the paper clip (or whatever the OP ended up using) and also touching ground. In fact this would be a good test, by the way. I don't mean to sidetrack things, just wanted to mention that our earlier thought may have been invalid based on the additional info.

I'm off on the road for a few days, then at a wedding and then back on the road, so I'll leave it in Robert's very capable hands. I'll try to check in, but no promises.

#84 8 years ago

A short is bad. Some continuity is normal since youre reading through other components. Sorry if i wasnt clear earlier. Roberts right--no problem. Dont worry about it. You, and anybody following along, now better understand the switch matrix.

#86 8 years ago

All of the rows are held high. The columns are then sequentially pulled low. If a switch is closed then the column pulls the row low. When you touch the switch yow are providing a path to ground which pulls the row low. Since your finger does not provide a pulsed signal the cpu thinks multiple switches are closed.

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