Medieval Madness
Williams, 1997Quoted from brucipher:I have to agree with pezpunk, sure WoZ has some new things, and the RGB lighting is cool, but Stern has not done much new to innovate or change the game. To me, not much of what you mentioned is major innovation...just some cosmetic enhancements. Pinball has barely changed since the Bally/Williams era...
yeah, and in my opinion this is the only reason a MM remake is viable -- because there is so little to distiniguish a modern Stern machine from a 20 year old design.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:I'm pretty sure if you took a newly made game like STLE or ECLEWOZ and set it next to an original MM and asked someone which was built in the 90's and which was built today ... they could figure it out.
For Woz yes, Stern, not so much. Hell there is an appreciable difference in DE games versus B/W. If a B/W game in the same relative condition (not putting a game that has thousand of plays versus one with a few hundred) was next to a Stern; I would be surprised if people thought the Stern looked more advanced.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:Those were simply a few examples ... not even close to a complete list. I'm pretty sure if you took a newly made game like STLE or ECLEWOZ and set it next to an original MM and asked someone which was built in the 90's and which was built today ... they could figure it out.
I have a mint condition TZ and everyone that comes to my house and sees it thinks that it is brand new. A mint MM next to a ip that is not brand new, like the hobbit, would look exactly the same to someone who didn't know.
I know because this happens to me all the time.
At least for Stern, WOZ looks brand new with its LCD.
I'm in for an LE (Confirmed)
I like everything about the game I know so far, except where that driver board is located. Seems like it would have been potentially safer and more convenient to make some use in the backbox with that lonely cpu, but maybe its size posed a problem?
I'm hoping this changes, but I don't expect it to. My main concern is if it plays like the 97' version, and I believe it will...but mounting that driver there makes me go hmmm...
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:I'm in for an LE (Confirmed)
I like everything about the game I know so far, except where that driver board is located. Seems like it would have been potentially safer and more convenient to make some use in the backbox with that lonely cpu, but maybe its size posed a problem?
I'm hoping this changes, but I don't expect it to. My main concern is if it plays like the 97' version, and I believe it will...but mounting that driver there makes me go hmmm...
preach on brotha 
I can see even mounting it in the cabinet bottom, but I'm scratching my head to the logic of under the playfield. It's almost like a bad April fools joke.
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:I can see even mounting it in the cabinet bottom, but I'm scratching my head to the logic of under the playfield.
Less wiring than a Ford Taurus.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:Wow, there are just so many things ... off the top of my head:
Aside from newer/modern electronics ... some big ticket items:
LCD screen
RGB LED's
-Lighting in general ... remarkably enhanced since BW days
Numerous new game elements like the 'spinning disc' Stern uses (POTC, Tron, XM, etc.)
Invisglass
Powder coating / body armor (flipper protectors)
Internet connectivity
- Ability to update game code using USB or internet
Hi-res cabinet art (utilizing UV-protected inks)
etc. etc.
Wow one thing on your list actually effects the gameplay expierence. And that one thing wasn't even a 1st when Stern used it.
Impressive
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:There is just so much wrong with what you're stating ...
MM "set the bar so high"?? Give me a break. It's a very simple game (albeit fun) with one major toy up the middle, 2 ramps, and 2 pop-ups (trolls.) It's fun. There is nothing about it that is somehow just so far above and beyond any other pin. It's ridiculous the pedestal people have put this thing on. I don't think you know much about the history of ratings because 3 years ago MM was not even rated in the top 10 pins (or right around 10) on Pinside. It's still not #1 not on IPDB. I envision some route operator with 2 dozen of this game thinking .. "Hmmm ... I can create a bunch of accounts on Pinside, pump this rating up some more ... and make a fortune selling these." To think this game is so far above TZ or about 3 dozen other super fun games is just so ridiculous and wrong.
Made history yesterday? Yep. But not all "history" is good news ....
In my opinion, MM has proven over time to have that magical mix of theme, artwork, humor and game play. These things don't have as much to do with the technology in the game but with the creativity in the design. Though I can't think of many toys that are better than the castle. For $8k you know you are getting a pinball experience that is generally regarded as one of the best of all time and that is loved both by people who are new to the hobby and those who are more experienced.
Quoted from TomGWI:Glad people are getting new MM. My only thought is why are the boards mounted on the playfield, specially close to the pop numbers were the most vibration takes place. I really don't understand why placed boards there.
Lots of boards are mounted near the pop bumpers on old games and they run fine 24/7.
Having the driver board next to the components that it is driving will speed up troubleshooting and repair - that is what matters to me.
Quoted from pezpunk:it's the same technology, if not better, than STLE, (but with better art and better toys) and yet STLE's got a $900 higher MSRP
Why are you using Stern's MSRP as an example? In general, people don't pay that number. The MSRP could be a billion dollars, if people only still pay $8k, what does it matter?
Quoted from o-din:Less wiring than a Ford Taurus.
true, but it's like putting the instrument cluster on top of the engine.
Quoted from sammiesguys:Why are you using Stern's MSRP as an example? In general, people don't pay that number. The MSRP could be a billion dollars, if people only still pay $8k, what does it matter?
you're splitting hairs. the point is it's comparable tech for a comparable price. the design is what, 16 years old, but Stern has done little in the intervening years to make that design seem outdated.
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:true, but it's like putting the instrument cluster on top of the engine.
Years back, they moved the PCM on some automobiles from under the dash to under the hood next to the engine. I always thought that was a bad idea, but they survived the extra heat and vibration just fine. An instrument cluster would not like the heat, and pinball machines don't run at 200 degrees farenheit.
Quoted from pezpunk:you're splitting hairs. the point is it's comparable tech for a comparable price. the design is what, 16 years old, but Stern has done little in the intervening years to make that design seem outdated.
The moment I see someone quoting MSRP I pretty much tune out. I guess that's my answer.
Quoted from eggbert52:It kills me that these guys put together the absolute best team possible, spent over a year on production,Sharpe has to sign off on the final product, and yet people think they know better on how to build the machine.
Just simply amazes me.
I think some healthy skepticism is ok. If they had a "top team" working for a year on this why didn't they even have a single running example?
And who knows about Sharpe, etc... like any business venture - they just want your money - pure and simple.
I assume it will turn out fine (hopefully great) but I would never trust any hype blindly. That said this seems a lot more legit than Wayne-o earlier attempts
Quoted from Manic:I think some healthy skepticism is ok. If they had a "top team" working for a year on this why didn't they even have a single running example?
Why doesn't Stern have a working example of Star Trek LE? We've know about THAT game 4 months longer than the new MMR release.
As I have written elsewhere, I am trying to make a final decision about the ST-LE. It baffles me that in none of the many show-related threads to appear on Pinside is there a single substantive report about, for example, the starfield projector or the LE production schedule. I will quit harping on this and give up. Perhaps everyone else already has made a firm decision about ST, and it is just old news. I really had hoped to learn more. 
Quoted from Craig:As I have written elsewhere, I am trying to make a final decision about the ST-LE. It baffles me that in none of the many show-related threads to appear on Pinside is there a single substantive report about, for example, the starfield projector or the LE production schedule. I will quit harping on this and give up. Perhaps everyone else already has made a firm decision about ST, and it is just old news. I really had hoped to learn more.
You're not the only one, I'm not very confident about my purchase anymore.
Quoted from Craig:As I have written elsewhere, I am trying to make a final decision about the ST-LE. It baffles me that in none of the many show-related threads to appear on Pinside is there a single substantive report about, for example, the starfield projector or the LE production schedule. I will quit harping on this and give up. Perhaps everyone else already has made a firm decision about ST, and it is just old news. I really had hoped to learn more.
I'm not sure how you missed it but there is an issue with the LE (either with the ship or the starfield projector presumably .. but most likely the starfield projector) and no reveal will be shown at Expo. As stated by SR "it's not ready for prime time". Until they can resolve the issue(s) it's pretty hard to release a time schedule for delivery.
Quoted from Craig:As I have written elsewhere, I am trying to make a final decision about the ST-LE. It baffles me that in none of the many show-related threads to appear on Pinside is there a single substantive report about, for example, the starfield projector or the LE production schedule. I will quit harping on this and give up. Perhaps everyone else already has made a firm decision about ST, and it is just old news. I really had hoped to learn more.
I wouldn't sweat it. I have a feeling the game will be available. Maybe even moreso if some people pull out from their order due to the new MM. There is so much going on right now, I see no need for any quick decisions.
Quoted from pezpunk:you're splitting hairs. the point is it's comparable tech for a comparable price. the design is what, 16 years old, but Stern has done little in the intervening years to make that design seem outdated.
In some cases they have not even matched it... feeling/hearing Stern's buzzing flippers is always a bit of a letdown after the Wms examples. I'm hoping these remakes use the dual wound coil system from back then. That'll
go a long way towards making it feel like the original.
Btw - does anyone know if WOZ's flippers buzz on one side or the other (when held) like Stern's? I haven't had to chance to play one.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:there is an issue with the LE (either with the ship or the starfield projector presumably .. but most likely the starfield projector)
Certainly doesn't inspire confidence. But why didn't anyone even ask about it, e.g., on the Stern tour? I wish we had at least a comment from Stern. Oh, well.
Quoted from sammiesguys:I wouldn't sweat it. I have a feeling the game will be available. Maybe even moreso if some people pull out from their order due to the new MM. There is so much going on right now, I see no need for any quick decisions.
Well said, I agree 100%. Now with so many options we can play more of a wait and see approach rather than frenzy I need to get in on this now or else type thing.
Quoted from Manic:Btw - does anyone know if WOZ's flippers buzz on one side or the other (when held) like Stern's?
I am not at home to check, but I've never noticed it. They're Wms remakes anyway, right?
Quoted from Manic:Btw - does anyone know if WOZ's flippers buzz on one side or the other (when held) like Stern's? I haven't had to chance to play one.
Mine do not. It's great. And I was surprised by how quiet the slings (and pop bumers) are on WOZ.
Quoted from eggbert52:Dude, I'm not going to get into a tit for tat. Did you actually watch the entire video? He HAS to sign off on the final product. I'm not arguing theory, I'm stating facts.
I was in the seminar taking notes. But thanks!
Quoted from vid1900:They said they could not show the prototype until it was approved by Williams.
I guess I'm kind of wondering why we've come this far without Williams approval.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:Mine do not. It's great. And I was surprised by how quiet the slings (and pop bumers) are on WOZ.
Great - sounds like it is indeed Wms setup. Well let's hope this gets included for all the new MM buyers... right buddy!
Be happy for 'em - I am. Though the threads that describe these buyers as the "downtrodden poor" are a bit of a stretch lol
Quoted from Manic:Great - sounds like it is indeed Wms setup. Well let's hope this gets included for all the new MM buyers... right buddy!
Be happy for 'em - I am. Though the threads that describe these buyers as the "downtrodden poor" are a bit of a stretch lol
lol, I am happy for them, it's all good. I'm a little less thrilled with Planetary Pinball and what this might mean for Pinball long term.
Quoted from Craig:But why didn't anyone even ask about it, e.g., on the Stern tour?
They did in the Stern tour video.
SR talked about the VUK, low line voltage conditions, the brightest game ever made, and the fact that the LE was not ready for hands on yet.
Quoted from vid1900:They did in the Stern tour video.
Hi, Vid. FYI: I was responding to a post about the starfield projector and/or the ship. I knew about the VUK.
Quoted from callmesteam:Why is it $8k new? They don't have to put together an art package, whitewoods, etc. Seems like that should cut a decent amount off the overall price. I would have expected it closer to $6k. I know they still have to build and ship them, obviously.
Because they can. Sweet deal for PPS but I think they left a little money on the table. The market says a new pin is worth $8K. with The Hobbit and STLE pricing. Honestly, I think had the price tag been 9K it would have sold out in a day too.
Quoted from vid1900:Because that is how licensing works.
They got permission to build the remakes, now they need final approval.
Was it kind of like running it up the flagpole and see how many saluted? Well, I think most of us did.
Do they like to have an idea how many will be made before signing off on it?
I think I get the picture. They get permission to make it, and then approval based on the actual product.
Quoted from vid1900:It might be the smartest move ever; thinking outside of the 50 year old box:
The shorter the wire run, the less loss to resistance and the less chance of interference.
The less connectors, the less resistance and less points of potential failure .
Service will be easier, having the driver board right next to the driven components.
Service will be easier by not having to pull the machine forward from the row, disconnect and the remove the fragile backglass & tub. All the tech will have to do is lift the playfield and everything is in one easy to access spot.
I was just going to say this, then I read your post. No need for long wire runs and interference. Everything right there.n People seem to forget the amount of wire that goes into a single pinball machine. It is nothing to sneeze at. Looks like you could pull the playfield right out of the machine by literally just disconnecting that microcontroller and sub speaker/coin box.
Quoted from vid1900:It might be the smartest move ever; thinking outside of the 50 year old box:
The shorter the wire run, the less loss to resistance and the less chance of interference.
The less connectors, the less resistance and less points of potential failure .
It's not the first time... many SS era games put electronics under the playfield.. many learned the hard way it's not a very fail safe design when you have conductive material raining down on your PCBs.
Quoted from pezpunk:Stern and JJP ARE NOT ENTITLED TO OUR DOLLARS. The pinball that best meets the desires of the buyers are the ones the buyers will buy. I like what JJP's doing, but Stern has been treading water for a decade with no competition and now they're paying the price -- an old design is STILL comparable to their current designs in terms of technology, and superior in terms of fun. This is how capitalism works. One company gets stagnant, another rises up and eats their lunch. Stern has made it ALL TOO EASY to do.
you can't keep a bubble from popping. natural market forces will ALWAYS pop bubbles, and if you don't think MM prices were a bubble, well i don't know what to tell ya. the remake will bring them bang in line with something resembling sanity, and that's a good thing for the hobby and for pinball lovers alike. the hobby will get along JUST FINE without $15,000 price tags on machines.
Completely agree with this. Instead of innovating, they give different levels of trim and toys. They take an easy route. A good for their bottom line when they have a monopoly.
Quoted from Manic:Btw - does anyone know if WOZ's flippers buzz on one side or the other (when held) like Stern's? I haven't had to chance to play one.
l haven't noticed that on mine, but i'll check again. l will say this, at max adjust (in system settings) the flippers are stupid strong. That's how mine is set.
Quoted from Jvspin:In my opinion, MM has proven over time to have that magical mix of theme, artwork, humor and game play. These things don't have as much to do with the technology in the game but with the creativity in the design. Though I can't think of many toys that are better than the castle. For $8k you know you are getting a pinball experience that is generally regarded as one of the best of all time and that is loved both by people who are new to the hobby and those who are more experienced.
Exactly.
When I said "there is nothing like MM", I was obviously (well...obvious to most reasonably educated people) not talking about things like it's fan layout, ramps, etc. I was talking about the overall package, including call outs, humor, artwork, rules, etc.
This game might turn out to be a little lighter in weight than the original because there will be less wiring.
Quoted from flynnibus:It's not the first time... many SS era games put electronics under the playfield.. many learned the hard way it's not a very fail safe design when you have conductive material raining down on your PCBs.
Agreed. And the heat build up would require a fan. RFM has a cover over its cab PCB. I hope they test the hell out of this new system.
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