I don't hate slopzilla, i enjoy playing one player games on it....but a 4 player game i don't have 3 hours to watch other people play it

i lightly read your rules. i also don't follow rules regardless.

So many great quotes.
“ what were you going to do with the blade Jerry?”

“ Mitchell DON’T Fuck this up!”

That's 98% of all new Sterns

I hate playing multiplayer games on any machine. The only time I don’t mind is if I’m at a show and there’s a line to play a new machine. If the person in front of me asks if they should punch up a multiplayer game so no one has to wait, I like it. It give you a chance to watch the other players and get a feel for the rules/etc. and not just stand in line.

ive become extremely fond of short ball time games. Half the reason i bought games again is to have friends over to play and "losing my powers" as my son calls it waiting for other players to finish their ball is kinda snore lol

Variety is the spice of life my friend. I see your points though.

For sure....ive spidey and star trek pro, they are are easy to get some long games going, Next gen is typically a short game, batman is somewhere in the middle.

I'm very curious as to where the tipping point is on ball times. It's almost rude to pick GZ for a 4-person league game. FF is going to be right there with it as more folks learn it. I greatly prefer playing BKSOR (especially in competition) to GZ, even though GZ is more varied and has cooler shots and modes.

While it's not quite an A or B thing, a hard and reasonably fair game will keep my attention for way more games than something where you can find two shots and play a twenty minute ball. Don't know if that will ultimately impact status or value, but feels like something that will start to come up if too many more easy games come out and flood the barcades.

Haha. I hear ya man. I prefer single player games too and don't care for competitive play.

I started using Max Badazz when I first got into the hobby and posted on RGP (it's an old Alvin G proto game that never made it). The name worked for my online gaming days as well. Too many Chris' that are my age Fast forward 23 yrs later and I'm still using it

I won't even join a league because I'm afraid I might have to play a 4 player game on Godzilla at some point.

Code can make a huge difference
My First NIB was Batman TDK. Out of the box, the game was bad, really bad. I thought i had flushed my $$ down the toilet
I updated the software, and the game improved. Three years later the game is better. Not an 'A' list game, but now it is fun

So for JJP Pirates and STh, was it really code that made them A? Does pirates even have a final wizard mode? Or the fact that they became super rare? I mean nobody wanted them so why are we mad when they ceased production?

I don't have a per ball answer but for maximum income through the coin slot in a busy arcade there is an answer. It is exactly 2 minutes and 20 seconds per game.

At that exact playtime people will have a good enough experience to put more money in for another game, and they'll come back over and over to play again.

Some Gottlieb 80B games made the jump from a C-list game to an A-list:

TX-Sector, Robo-War, Excalibur.

A list for Gottlieb maybe? Those games are certainly not A list otherwise. Maybe B list. I know TX and Robo are now fairly beloved and sought after but they aren't even close to MM, CV, TOTAN, TZ, ect levels. I was not aware that Excalibur was held in such high regard but I suppose I could see it.

Man I suck at pinball. Played GZ at a show and loved it so just picked up a NIB. Have played maybe 20 games over the couple of days and can't score over 500M. Ball times are way short for me and I lose a bunch on left outlane. I guess I should be happy as I'm not worried about long games

Hard to compare games from the late 1980s to games of the 1990s, but those aforementioned 80B games are solid contenders to a lot of System 11 A-Listers, especially when cost is concerned.

They still aren't on par with Funhouse, whirlwind, or even earthshaker. (yes I realize funhouse is WPC)

I was on rgp for a number of years around 2000 and that really is the only time I recall reading A/B tier discussions. When I talk to pinheads these days who also collected around that time frame we will talk Bally/Williams and A/B games, but we never reference Stern games as an A/B game. It's kinda weird. Hearing talk of Stern games in tiers like that is a disorienting for older, rgp experienced, collectors, or at least this older, rgp experienced, collector. . There isn't a good reason for that though, it's a logical discussion regardless of what games you're talking about, just my experience.

With that reference in mind, the only time a B game got mentioned as an A game is when someone with a B game was trying to sell it for more than it was worth!

I’d make the comparison to games like Taxi, Cyclone, Space Station, etc. Whirlwind came out 2 years later, and the late 80s were making absolute boundless tech advancements at the time. Still, totally subjective, but I think Robo-War is honestly as good, if not better in many ways, than Earthshaker and Whirlwind. It really is a game almost too good for its own good.

I guess if you just bend the rules all willy nilly any game can be A tier

Yes. they can change!
Whatever game i'm selling to Haymaker goes from a D title to an A title

My ice fever is definitely an A title these days.

hahahahaha. TAF plays like hot garbage and is only fueled by nostalgia.

Them thar's fightin' words!

(sniffs, speaks in a very posh english accent)

Obviously, you have never played a truly good example of the game that was properly 'dialed in'.

(sniffs, looks disdainfully at poster...)

(walks away from the discussion)

Hard disagree on that. Most TAF tables that have been routed will have 50K or more plays on them and if not refurbished will play badly, but you play one that has all the correct calibration and it's still an awesome game. I have an excellent playing TAF and virtually every pin friend I have over says something to the effect of "Oh THIS is how this game is supposed to play." Big earning tables are naturally going to degrade, it's getting harder and harder to find a DP or EHOH on route that doesn't have something horribly malfunctioning, but I wouldn't use that to evaluate how good those games are.

If you are going to make a hot take like "all 90s BW are better than modern games" then be prepared for the opposite take.

The better you get as a player the more likely you are to not enjoy shallow games only designed to take a few dollars from you at an arcade.

I don't mean the condition. I have been in pinball for a long time and played mint condition TAFs in the mid 2000s when they were cheap.

I personally do not enjoy the gameplay of TAF as it is a one shot game and extremely shallow. The "experience" is amazing and I have nostalgia for the game because I played it when it was brand new.

I am simply pointing out that if TAF was Haunted Mansion and came out today that everyone would hate it.

This looks like a good ol' fashion pile on!

I grew up with TAF and was the game that turned me onto pinball…. Having said that…pass.

That's about where I max out on GZ also but I play in a league with a bunch of top 500 players, so you get four of those folks on that table and everyone else has time to watch a movie. If I look up the average ball time on my MB it's about a minute per ball, guessing it would be more like 2-3 minutes per ball on GZ, which isn't crazy playing by oneself, but gets tedious on a four person game.

Ghostbusters Pro > TAF gg ez

Most "B" games get elevated to "A" shortly after I sell them.

I played TAF at a bowling alley once when I was a kid therefore it is the greatest pinball of all time.

If you want a hot take, with a little bit of make up your mom could probably be A tier.

The funny part is you may have been trying to rib me, but I actually don’t like TAF and I only have one because I gave it to a family with a disabled adult child who’s only obsession is TAF.

I played it and refurbished it, and thought it was boring, so jokes on you, I don’t like it.
That being said, if you really think modern games are a magnitude above 90s games, you’re deluded. They are also designed to take your money, it’s COIN OP. All the good designers are either gassed out and retiring, or dead. Modern games are severely overrated.
If I wanted to memorize 5 pages of rules just to get to the “real game” then I would play Warhammer or some other tabletop nerd stuff.

Get good and play 70s games and early solid states.

Thank you, I agree TAF is not good and will work to get good so I can better understand your point of view.

Looking at modern tables, BKSOR is very similar to Addams in having a ramp-scoop combo that does the primary modes, has way less interesting geometry and only two flippers (on the Pro) and is comparable in depth, despite being over 25 years newer. Now, I personally would much rather play BKSOR than Mando or Stern Wars or some of the other code monsters, but games like DP and IM that combine depth, shots, and risk/reward are awesome, and I totally see why TAF can seem dated in comparison. Additionally, if your only goal is to "beat" tables, Addams is one of the easier wizard modes to reach, though just going for that without playing the modes will only yield about 100M points.

Nostalgia certainly aids the exorbitant prices on TAF tables, but you watch folks play it in competition and no one is playing it like a "one shot" table. You can put up 100+M without getting a single room or multiball if you can hit the side-ramp, pops and mini-flipper to the graveyard.

I'll be the first to say that TAF is probably the most overrated game of all time, but its still a pretty good game. It was mind blowing when it came out, and it has just a huge legacy behind it. Its the game normies bring up to me 95% of the time when they hear I like pinball. "Wow, I didn't know they even still made these things! I remember playing Addams Family way back in the day!". Theres a reason I don't own one though. Waaaaay too much money for what the game is. I still like it and respect it however.

I was on rgp back then too. There was only Bally Williams games basically and they had quit making games. Some were gaining more traction as time went by and that's where I heard of A and B list games. Yes Stern was making games but they were D list at best. Austin Powers, Harley Davidson, etc. It wasn't until Pat joined up with Stern to make Monopoly that anyone even lifted an eyebrow.

The only games that are "A Tier" are games you deem as such; same for "B-Tier".

It's the same with any other media, medium or art form. We all have different tastes and opinions and there's nothing wrong with letting people enjoy whichever game they wish.

If you get pressured into only owning games other people approve of then you're going to have a bad time. I own games people downright hate; it's fine, you'll be fine, trust me.