Not sure if this should be ugly ducklings or just unloved. To give you an idea look at the numbers owned by pinsiders.
RBION: 203
WOF: 73

To Compare...
LOTR with the LE:
930 TSPP: 652

If you want ugly ducklings look at Capcom Games.
Airborne: 31
Pinball Magic: 126
Breakshot: 67

Keep in mind, some games are rarer than others, so ownership stats don't necessarily reflect desirability.

RBION, an ugly duckling?!? Bite your tongue sir! It's a top 5 Stern IMHO

In all seriousness, I agree with xmen and RBION, love playing them now!

I think of Avatar and Xmen like Kevin mentioned. hated them both at first, but love them now.

Just about every Sega game. I'm not sure I "love" them, but why so much hate? Too many narrow ramps? Build quality not great? The only one I've played out of eight or ten titles that I couldn't get into was Lost in Space. They are generally average to above average, maybe failing in the animations/DMD department and sound variety but definitely interesting layouts and decent rules.

you know you love SWT
I tend to agree the sega year were the roughest for Stern. A lot of poopy games. Baywatch isn't bad, if you pretend it is a different theme.

The narrow ramps of ID4 makes it a very special game to play anytime!

Yeah, what's wrong with it? Why are they "poopy" games? It's reasonably enjoyable and an interesting layout. I don't care about the theme but it's better than the pin2k Star Wars, Data East Star Trek, or Gottlieb Stargate.

It's a really tough compare for the year though. Williams came out with Medieval Madness, Cirqus Voltaire, and No Good Gofers that year. Are the Sega games from that year really 1/3 to 1/5 as good as the Sega games? Maybe. Goldeneye and Starship Troopers are a hell of a lot of fun.

Avatar is a great example.

Personally.. Barry Oursler accross the board except for maybe Junk Yard. PinBot, fire the ball off and you can have the bottom bumper rocket the ball straight accross for the left outlane drain.. Seriously.... You have no chance as a player to inflict the ball and can earn Three straight same Drains withinn 25 seconds.. How fun is that ? Same thing with Space Shuttle, 90% of the time the ball heads for the right outlane drain, which btw Barry O sized and took reference of from the gap of the Grand Canyon...

Metallica would be my #1 for "thought it was terrible the first time I played it and now it's in my top five" right now.

Kind of. More people own Godzilla (46) than Lost in Space (26) because it is a better player. However there are less Airbornes (31) in owners hands even though there were 1350 made compared to godzillas measly 510.

Cactus Canyon bucks the trend because it was a collectible when it was made. Production run of 903, but there are 178 pinsiders who have it.

? Where do you think the other Lost In Space games are? They are all owned, just not on Pinside.

I hated space station but now it's on my want list.

Agreed 100% with X-men, RBION and WoF. And there will be other examples.

TZ was a failure on location. I had to put many games to start enjoying it. Now I do.

I would imagine games that failed to earn or were harder to keep running were more likely to have been parted out. Back in the early 2000s when games were closer in value which do you think would have been saved? The 1K williams A title or the rare, but awful Sega?

If an op has an LIS and a Whitestar game that earns like southpark, but needs boards where do you think they came from? Once it was a parts game and the boards were worth more than the machine do you think people were likely to fix them?

awww, I like Stargate a lot.

All my favorite games ironically for the reasons you listed. I like the chaotic nature of his layouts. I don't want a game to be 100% skill driven. There has got to be some chaos involved, it feels more magical when you get a good game. Besides, these designs were made to drain to make money, so they did just that.

Interesting angle of viewing gameplay.. I accept your view of seeing this.. But, personally I have a hard time handling it and it pisses me off, royaly. Oursler´s game ideas are terrific but brought down by the simply, stupid ridiculous wide outlane drains.. Playing PinBot will give me a good ballplay for every 7-8 balls.. A terrific ballplay happens every 30balls. Let´s start with a greatest ball ever which brings your score way up. The next two balls will drain for no particular reason without the player even having deserved it. As soon as the ball decides to head east or west you know there is an 80+% chance the ball will, without even touching and kissing the laneguide, just score right down the drain.. The best nudger in the world won´t help here. The same with Space Shuttle. It was saved by a last minute implement ballsave gate probably because management stepped in hours before release, realizing the return-to-play-factor would be close to zero if the game was released. We all know that didn´t happen.. Instead to reopen the gate you have to hit three droptargets, nearly impossible to hit, situated in a silly 90 degree angle from the flippers.. Let´s not forget Dracula. There are games on location with the right drain blocked off with rubber bands just to attract players even considering putting money into that machine. Thank god, being the lousy player I am there are nicer not so "evil" games out there which will let you play + 30 seconds/ball that Mr.Oursler officially has said should be the ball in play lasting time limit.. Ripleys Believe or Not, now that´s a forgiveable game...

I'd put IM in this category. Not well received or loved when it first came out.

Not sure about Breakshot but Airborne and PM were built in low numbers, around 1000 if I remember right.

Breakshot's production run is "1000" but some people don't believe that number because they're so common. If it's really 1000, a ton of them survived into our small community, even compared to other Capcom games.

67 is a huge number? Godzilla has half the production run and there are 46 in the community so not sure your logic stacks.

Posted their production numbers in the thread per pinside. Airborne has a higher production run than PM and yet a quarter the number of owners have it vs PM.

In the end it is a wash, just interesting little tidbits really.

is this ugly duckling thread, or games you didnt like at first but now do thread?

seems to me the least desirable to others, yet most desirable to me are data east non licensed themes. they get nothing but hate but are actually my favorite type of game

I'd consider striker xtreme to fit the ugly duckling label, I know a lot of people here hate on it but I still think it's got a decent rule set and lay out for it's price range. Just the audio and generic artwork feel uninspired but it's still a fun pin to play.

Why I love and respect the bot. BTW, having owned it for a few years now, I know when those drains are gonna happen, and can prevent them a good amount of the time now. It takes having a weird connection to the game, which takes about a good 1000 evil drains at least before you start to notice the pattern, it isn't quite as random as it seems, and usually happens under certain circumstances. The fast shoot out of the pop bumper is the usual culprit you can't react to fast enough to, so I just stay on my toes while it is banging around in there and get ready to nudge. Others are just the slings, which you can predict and nudge. I can get one good game every 3 or so now, where it use to be like 1 in 20 games. But it took owning it, it is one of the reasons I like the game so much, there is a lot of skill involved preventing those drains, but it still gets you 1/2 the time, like when you just get a bad fast deflect off of something. That makes me wanna come back and kick its ass.

QFT on both counts!

I love a good dollop of chaos for a few reasons: 1) it keeps you humble, on your toes 2) it forces one to accept the notion that not all things can be controlled (reconcile your Zen), and 3) the more you face it, the more you realize that maybe it's not as chaotic as it seems...

...the more I play Space Shuttle, the more I have begin to recognize certain patterns and to anticipate the likelihood of a bad exit. Of course that's only Step One; Steop Two would be appropriate nudging which I have yet to master, but I'm getting better. When I first got the machine, the direct outlane drains were killing me. Now I can play several game sin a row and only drain DTM... yet lest that tempt me into thinking I've got the outs figured out, POW there one goes. It's really a perfect blend of skill and chance... you can steer it all you want but you just never know for sure... and that's what draws me back.

That, and the endless, self-effacing wonderment that happens when I rip a 3+ miilion game on SS, and follow it up with a sub-100K brickfest. It happens. But I've improved to where a 2+ million ball is not out of the question and almost routine, whereas at first it seemed impossible.

Mastering the right backhand up the spinner lane is a key; timing will let you strafe all the drops and get that multplier going (not to mention the airlock... no better feeling than hearing the game say "airlock open" then ripping that strafe shot "OH YEAH B*TCH?!?!" (granted, I don't do it all the time, but it happens often enough)

Moral of the story for me is:
Barry´s games aren´t very nice to me.. Sometimes I hate them so much and feel like torching them. It comes back to myself still being novice.. They are evil but I keep them anyway as I will try to negotiate a way to figure out the patterns you mention. Something that has to be sunk in with the +1000 drains.. Weirdly enough 30% of my games are from Barry Oursler.. In my cave is standing - PinBot, Grand Lizard, Police Force and Hurricane. They laugh at me when I enter the arcade but I will beat their butts one day.... definition of ugly ducklings.. Talking about outlane and drains, Space Shuttle is a nightmare on the right side.. However the playfield hardly ever gets worn on the left side.. Rarely does the ball drain on the left. Jackbot is a game that I think is not looked at very much... Same evil layout but an awesome game.

A good pin to me is one that is easily understood but difficult to master. That's why I like most of Ourseler's designs. He puts just enough F-you into the game to make you wanna come back for me, but not so much that I wanna torch the game. They are defensive games more than offensive sometimes. My least favorite aspect of his designs are the nearly 90 degree targets that really can only be hit by accident. Other than that, I prefer his designs to any other. I like shorter ball time games for the most part (with the exception of LotR), so his games have always had more of an appeal to me for that reason. I can always escape and get in a few quick games, then run off and do something else.

RBION is the POSTER CHILD for Ugly Ducklings. Until you love the machine, the backglass may be the most hideous thing ever drawn. I like it now because it's so bad; much like TS.

as soon as you plunge in on a pin you deserve to drain. Its expected.
SS impossible to hit drops?? Those are a perfect backhand sweep from the right flipper. It not hard at all. you just need to be better.

WPT is far uglier. RBION isn't a beauty, but it honestly has never bothered me or any guests. Not like Shaq Attack of SF2 has.

That's pretty fair. Although I LOVE the Shaq translight....it's so corny.

I had Laser War, that got more laughs though, and as kids of the 80's, it was the good kind of funny, like Genesis funny.

My wife always says "you can't win at pinball". Puts things into perspective.

SF2 is just a disaster. Poor Blanka.

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IS NOT

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although the similarities are striking

All you can do is try to compete with the game. It's like golf, sure you can beat the person you are playing with, but its really just a question of who did the best managing the environment.

Another vote for Avatar, didn't care too much for it when it first came out because the game simply crushed me, now with better skills I have fallen in love in love with it...

Party Zone. I really did not like it for YEARS. Like 10 years! Then, I played one for about an hour and said to myself, "this plays like a system 11 game but it has a DMD. That is cool."

I'm not ignorant enough to try and say that PZ is an epic, or even a great pinball machine... However, for me specifically, I could not stand the game when I first played it at shows 10 years ago.

Now that I am a refined pinball player, the simplicity of the game and the "lack of features" makes it very unique among DMD titles. What other game has a classic B/W or system 11 approach to scoring, along with a DMD?

The Bride of Pinbot add-on DMD+software kit comes to mind here. Also Breakshot. A couple more games that I really like.

If you can get over the fairly annoying sounds, it does have some very classic pinball sounds and DMD dots that tie in with the ELVIRA/DR DUDE themes. At some moments, the game can even feel like CFTBL. It's "a party", "halloween bash", or summertime-night-at-the-drive-in-type-good-feeling that you get. Makes me want to drink beer...

If you like any of Dennis Nordman's other games, you should not be so quick to discount this title. It has some good shots, sounds, and DMD animations. I feel that this is one of Nordman's most overlooked titles.