I will take two, please.

My guess Spiderman or TSPP .
Hanging on for Spidey !

Honestly, I don't think it'll be anything pre-Ironman. The pf toys and mech would be WAY out of their current budget

I mean I hope it's not the case, but being realistic here..

My point is things are set in stone... until they are not. Was this lost or ?

I would agree regarding TSPP, I think the demand for a SMVE would large enough for them to rerelease not to mention that current prices on used is still very strong, besides isn't the idea of a Vault Edition to be something that they blow the dust off of ?

vault-dustbowl-1.jpg

Personally speaking I don't think there is that much demand for SM being that quite a few runs were made. It will be interesting to see what they do next for sure.

Nope. Not dead in the water.

All Premiums are LE's without being LE's.

Except Tron, its a Premium and an LE all in one. The LE Cert and the number plate on the Game say LE but lift the hood on the game look at the tag and is says Tron premium.

No respect, I'm telling you.

What is set in stone is the fact that Stern will not remake an LE.

RBIONVE

I have a different take. VE pins represent a huge step back from innovation and creativity. It is bad for pinball...it is lazy. I have to think Stern understands this, and the only way the industry stays relevant is to take risks and innovate. I hope the IMVE phenomenon was a one time reaction to the underwhelming Mustang sales. The following would vastly outsell any VE:

Muppets
South Park (New)
Queen

LLVE!

lazerlord.jpg

My guess would be TSPP or X-Men

Although Striker Extreme would be cool, be like a 15th anniversary VE or something

Irrelevant. It's an LE.

Stern started this speculation, not this thread or any other thread.

There are only a handful of VE candidates. IM was sort of a perfect candidate for various reasons - low production, late demand, franchise very relevant/wide appeal, actual ops wanting a few, etc.

So something will likely happen at some point in the future (future can mean 1-xx years) when there is a lull in the production line. The biggest hurdle to overcome is demand. There aren't that many pins that are in demand by home users (note I did not say collectors) that also might be in demand by ops - SM, LOTR, TSPP, Family Guy, and Tron all fit at least part of the profile. Stretch things out for a few years and more titles could meet the profile.

VE isn't next month or on any sort of regular schedule, it may be 5 years from now. Money will always find a way to overcome obstacles. So you might see'em again guys. I say GREAT! Maybe one of the best things to happen to the home users market IMO.

Economically, the only VE that would make sense is for a machine that sells more used than a current NIB pro machine. IM satisfied this easily, LoTR and Tron both do as well. SM just barely does, but that seems unlikely.

IMVE is an improvement over IM in several ways. Subsequent VEs could/would also be improvements as well and worth a premium over secondary market used pins. #1 improvement would be newness.

Stern would have a lot of latitude over the level of improvement and therefore the price points. Stop thinking about this as something that has to happen next week.

Pretend it is 2020 and there is a re-release of a popular movie or TV show that Stern happens to have a pin themed back in the 2000's (IM, LOTR, Avatar, Xmen, Avengers, Simpson's, whatever) or a dearth of the same pins in good condition. They only need to have 500 pins to do a profitable run. 7 years from now, how many SM's are in awesome condition? Do you want to source a beater and pay 6k to have it brought up to new or buy a new one?

MMR ring a bell? Stern is setting up a great business model for their future! This isn't about next month guys!

Ahhhh a simple, one line, voice of reason.....thank you!!!.....

I agree. They will never recreate an LE. They won't have to even consider that option.

Umm, no. You're assuming a VE sale wouldn't be incremental to whatever the current NIB Pro is. As long as a VE sale isn't taking a sale away from the current model, the cost comparison is irrelevant.

When I talk about "remaking" a LE I am not talking about re-running BIB or whatever identically to the prior version. That is stupid enough it was not entering my frame of mind, my bad for not being more clear.

Slightly alter the awesome chrome laser cut rails, cut and paste the backglass image to be slightly different, do a blingy upgraded apron or whatever.... and voila in celebration of AC/DC's new album and Stern's Best Selling Game EVER... you get the ACDC "whatever edition" LE.

Will Stern do this for sure? Obviously not. Could they do this? Absolutely. I seem to remember another manufacturer already doing something like this last year. Ruby Red anyone?

I think a lot of people are somehow confusing "won't" make something similar with "can't". They might not do it, but they certainly CAN. And I sense when push comes to shove they certainly will.

_{Post edited by BC_Gambit}

RBION might sell well due to TPA exposure bringing in non weird pinball people that buy used shit off craigslist.

I don't think you know what I'm assuming.

Give me an example of a past Stern game that's currently selling used for under current NIB pro prices, and you think would be a successful VE.

Exactly, when people say make another LE, they aren't saying make more of the same LE, just a different LE. You can make another AD/DC LE, TRON LE, Spider Man LE, etc - you just can't make more of the same LE. Stern will do it, JJP already has with WOZ, and I expect they will with The Hobbit. I am getting the original Hobbit LE, and I don't mind if JJP makes other LE versions.

I don't get why people are so black and white on re-making an LE.

Yes, it is very very unlikely.

Always allow a shade of grey.

Nothing in life is certain - that's all

No idea - anniversary, new cab design? I am not good at coming up with ideas for new LEs (for any pin).

I think you guys are really overestimating demand for EVERY Stern game & the cost it would take to put any of them back into production for a limited run. IM was the "perfect" game to re-run. Cheapest BOM ever, license was still relevant, SAM system game...demand was on fire. It was really easy to put out that fire and make some easy money. No other game would be "easy" OR have that insta-sales success of IM. WOZ 75th is $9k! IMve was $4500. Do you want to see a $7k-8k "new" AC/DC LE...and even so, would it sell? I think the demand for AC/DC is well fed....and in any case - Stern is going to stick to the "never remake an LE"...so you're not going to see "variant" LEs. Maybe a variant Premium, as we've seen that's been done already. Generally collector-types rush to buy LEs. If Stern remade an "LE", they'd sit there and go "bullshit". The LE concept would be officially dead and no LE would ever quick-sell ever again. Stern values that quick-sell of LEs as part of their business plan...they will not compromise it over a few Pinsiders crying that they want another NIB LE of a game they missed out on.

Nope. I won't go into why I disagree, that horse has been beaten to death already.

All do respect, I don't agree with this. JJP has and will continue to do additional LEs for a Pin. Stern can (may not, may already have - I don't know). The pin is Sterns property, it is a opportunity for them to make money - that is their core. They will want to get new buyers/customers. If they have a pin that people like they should make more. If that is a premium - ok, if they want to do an LE - ok. People aren't crying for NIB LE, they would like to own one (remember these are likely new customers that you are preventing from buying). We don't want to prevent people from buying if all possible. That is my main point - you need to grow the community of pin owners. That is why I say be careful about making an LE model without a Premium model. Stern needs to have the ability to create premiums as they see fit (now or in the future). To target collectors do multiple LE version, others are premium and pro buyers.

Does anyone know the sales data for the red WOZ LE?

I personally don't think Stern will ever re-run an LE, but if the red WOZ LE is an overwhelming success, then I say all bets are off.

Well many of us that owned both in our homes sure feel that way.

nugent

You can't re-run an LE, I agree with Rarehero on that. But you can do a premium or a different LE for a pin.

It does not matter. Just because one LE remake is a hit does not mean another one will be.

They will react to demand. IMVE was them tracking resales, pinside and distros asking for them.

As for LE they said that wont ever happen. Of course Gary said that about IM runs too : o

Sorry for the week late response; I think it is confirmed they only made half the run? If I'm not mistaken, Jack confirmed this prior to forming JJP?

Here's the differences between what Jack did with "another" LE and Stern.

1.) JJP had already established that to them, LE means 1000 (ECLE) or 1500 (THLE)
2.) JJP's business model established that art package & features are the same on all of their models
3.) Jack only had one product to sell for YEARS, and it was behind schedule. 75th Edition, "right" or "wrong", was done to get more cash into the company ....which leads me into countering your "Stern will do it for money" argument
4.) Stern consistently releases 2 titles per year & has 4-5 titles on the line at any given time. They have a catalog of products to sell to new customers. Unlike JJP, a Stern LE is (generally) a LIMITED affair with ~500 units produced. Part of their business plan is selling those out quick while also selling Pros and Premiums of the 4-5 other titles in production. They don't NEED to blow up their LE concept for a few more bucks, they have tons of products to sell to make a few more bucks!

So, if you want to talk about "preventing new customers from buying games" and "growing the community", sorry - but that's illogical. You can go to a Stern distributor and buy AC/DC Pro/Premium, Metallica Pro/Premium, Star Trek Pro/Premium (or LE probably), Mustang Pro/Premium/LE, Walking Dead Pro/Premium/LE ....not to mention out of production games probably still in stock (Xmen, Avengers, TF). Between all the models, there are 13+ choices for new customers and the community. Revisiting every old title for the sake of maybe 50-100 sales from people who missed out when the game came out is not worth it from the business perspective of running a factory. Remember - these aren't video games...it's not as easy as pressing a batch of new discs...getting a game back up on the line is a financial and resource commitment. With IM - it made sense....with other titles, not really. They have new games to sell.

TRS VE except this time. the tongue will actually be the ramp, and Mick won't be on a friggin stick.

I don't know if red WOZ LE was a hit, that's why I was asking.

What is the total amount of WOZ LEs? 2,000? 2,500?

If they can sell all of them, at $8,000+, then I'm sure Stern is watching.

IMO, I can't see all the WOZ LEs being sold…I personally do not find the game to be much fun.

Keep in mind: if Stern doesn't have to spend any cash on designing a new pin, maybe they would consider a higher b.o.m. pin like LOTR or TSPP.
-assuming that they could get the toys made. Wonder if some of them are no longer available?
Could you find someone in China to knock off 500 Homers heads, or would you need to do 1000+ to make it cost effective?
I mean, if they made money years ago selling LOTR for $3500-4000?, wouldn't they still be making money selling them today for $5,000-5,500?

I don't know enough about recent Sterns to say what would be a good VE candidate, however when it comes to a VE I am personally more interested in being able to buy the game new than what an original would sell for used.

Maybe I misunderstood your original post, but if I were Stern, I would have no issue with considering any VE title unless it was clear it would canabilize sales from the new title they would be trying to sell at the same time.

I am hoping it would be more than that. I certainly don't think it would make sense to do more for all pins, just the more popular ones years later - like you are seeing with MM. Most new hobby members will buy newer pins, or older pins that are still around NIB or reasonably priced. Some pins are better than others (generally speaking). Those are worth revisiting if demand grows from new pinheads or current pinhead that have improved financial situations (or room)

Back to the topic however, VE is a safer move for Stern with existing LE/Premium owners. I would expect the next VE to be TRON...but whatever Stern does is fine by me.

It was my understanding that Jack was going to be the main seller of the LOTR LEs but Stern changed the price and Jack bailed out of dealing with Stern shortly after. Then Automated bought up most of the rest of the LEs and was selling them well after Jack quit selling Sterns. I believe they were still being manufactured in late 2011 (or was it 2010). Stern even put stock shaker motors in some of the last LEs and I was one of those that bought one.

I don't own an LE and never have but if I did and they remade it, I think it would upset me because I would have bought it on the premise that it was a LIMITED run and if I didn't get in I wouldn't get one because they would be LIMITED and not run again.

MM is a game that has a MASSIVE reputation that's been built up over over a decade. Used ones were selling for 20k. That's such a specific situation & Stern doesn't have an old game like MM that would sell thousands more. Again, you're massively over-estimating NIB demand for old Stern games.

There are no statistics to indicate "most new hobby members will buy new pins"...in fact, I think most would seek out the ones they have nostalgia for or cheaper used games. Again, people who want to buy new games have about 15 options for new Sterns at any given time...or a JJP game...and soon, other manufacturers. There are LOTS of choices for NIB games for new pinheads. Stern doesn't need to remake 50-100 of an old title to "grow the hobby" when they can sell 1000's of their new titles that are currently in production. If people MUST have an old title - they're WIDELY available on the used market!!!! There is no 20k MM in the Stern world.

There may never be another VE! All this speculation is EXHAUSTING. If you want an old game, just go buy one.

I think people need to see the "Vault Editions" for what they really are, which is a way of getting rid of old parts by mixing them with new ones.

I don't mean this in a negative way of course.. I'm just betting they had a meeting one day and someone said "What are we going to do with all these extra Ironman parts we have lying around??". Problem was, they don't have any old-style cabinets or light sockets in stock anymore. *POOF* The VE was born.

That said I'm betting Xmen VE and Avengers VE will be coming soon. After all, we never did see the premium versions of these games like we were supposed to.