Oh boy...

Opinions do vary on this sort of thing. And Stern has been knocked for the the way their games "feel" since they were Data East. I have 4 Sterns and to me AC/DC feels a lot like TSPP. Probably a bit more solid in fact. It definitely feels more solid than my Tron Pro or LOTR. Is it as solid as my B/Ws? No. Not at all.

Flippers are strong. Pops and slings are strong. Clear coat could (should) be better. Sound is better than my other Sterns though not as good as RFM. The powder coat finish looks great. Not sure how it will hold up over time though. Playfield art is uninspired and pixelated up close as are most Sterns. Cabinet feels solid. And the cabinet decals look great. Though they're still decals.

So I'd say yes, it feels like an arcade quality game but it's not built to the standard of B/W. Nothing about the build quality concerns me. I do wish it was better but not so much that I didn't buy one.

I was thinking the same thing.

Their cust service is great as someone has mentioned before!

I was just looking at the pictures of The Pin at pinball heads website. Looks like the playfield is made of MDF? Hope thats not coming to full size games.

Stern-TF-UnderPF-e1353513987779.jpg

Look at avengers and how they bend and flex. I should get a micrometer or caliper out and measure them. My bet is TF has plastic that is thicker than that used on Avengers. This is a shame as Stern saving a few $$ is going to cost us a few hundred when the plastic becomes brittle and breaks. Avengers LE plastics are flimsy.

I owned several new sterns and the build quality doesn't seem that much different than B/W stuff. the only one that stands out in this department is Gottlieb system 3's. They are solid. Heavy and like a rock. SEGA, DE, STERNS, B/W all feel very comparable. And actually, I think LOTR is made better than most B/W because they have all metal ramps in there. No cheap cracking clear plastic ramps. Plastics dont' feel any different than B/W stuff. And B/W doesn't use cheap plastic toys? the AFM/RFM guys are high quality $1 bin martians. Shadow figures are .25 cent toy machine figures. Boogie men on SS are Free finger puppet items, you used to get in Taco Johns Kids meal. (no kidding, exact same ones). So you can't rag on Sterns without shaming your beloved Bally Williams in the process.

This of course is an opinion, not a quantifiable fact.

For example I think X-Men is more fun to play than AC/DC. Yes I said it

Take "car" out of your post above and you've got something

I bet people will line up for it still if it has some type of sci-fi, 80's band, or super hero theme. I don't think we have seen the end of cost cutting.

I can remember when IM or Avatar was the first to come out with the pegs for the playfield support. People went crazy. Then came the plastic apron, etc. Now, the cost cutting is really hitting the topside of the playfield and the games are getting more expensive. I could see MDF being next. Why not?

If they use MDF on new games I'm simply done as I will not buy a game made of MDF as there will be issues.

I really don't think the plastics or toys are that much different from the past. And I don't see why they'd skimp on something as minimal to the overall cost as plastic. My only real gripe with the playfield toy quality was Mick on Rolling Stones. Can't have your main feature look like a paper cutout.

If you think Stern is equal in quality to B/W then you must be a relative of Gary's or something, how much are they paying you to say these things, you keep this up and I might have to threaten you with some thumbs down

+1000!!!

Maybe the newer Stern pins, but Sega and DE, noway!! Not even close and yes, I own both.That doesn't mean I don't like their pins as much, but they aren't the same quality(IMHO).

Agreed...not even close.

Stern would need less customer service and care if they sent out better quality builds. Ones where the LEDs weren't falling out of their sockets right onto the playfield. Or games where the toys, like Hulk on Avengers, don't accidentally trap the ball very often. Just another month of playtesting would have sorted out most of the issues that people seem to be having with Avengers LE in my opinion. I can almost tolerate unfinished software. But unfinished hardware?

Obviously pinball machines are mechanical with lots of moving parts. Eventually something breaks. And very rarely, though it does happen, something will break within day of play or even when being transferred from the factory. But I would never expect to purchase a NIB machine for several thousand dollars and need to fix it within the first week of playing it.

But the major difference between TVs, cars, and pinball machines are quantities sold. When my Samsung 60" TV broke the company sent a repairman out to my house despite the TV being well out of warranty. What did they charge? Nothing. They figured that if I'm wealthy enough to own a giant TV that I'd remember this customer service repair and keep Samsung products in the back of my mind next time I shop. But Samsung sells so many TVs that they can keep repairmen and serviceman all throughout the entire United States. You are never more than a few hours away from a licensed technician being able to drive to your home.

Imagine what it would cost for Stern to keep a licensed technician within a few hours drive of all the pinball machines that they sell?

Let's be honest, you can never have enough of quality in anything, period.
Sure Stern can always do better, but so can JJP and Skit and Jpop and so on. But quality comes at a price.

We all know and heard the typical arguments about Stern prices vs. quality.
But to me that always seemed like comparing apples to oranges. Sure LOTR, TSPP and even POTC are loaded with features and are really solid in terms of buildquality. But let's face it they made around 8.000 thousand each (give or take).

Fast forward to the LE era. Now these games are comparable with the classics, but they can sell not even a fraction of what the classics sold. For example let take xmen, they made 550 LE's and what, a few hunderd pro's? Ok if the game proves to be succes thet can sell more pro's down the line or even when really succesfull they will start to produce premiums like AC/DC and maybe Avengers. But even then i'll doubt they will ever reach beyond let's say a few thousands units. Ok AC/DC may be the exception, but that really will not happen again soon. No not even Star Trek will reach what AC/DC is selling.
AC/DC has reached beyond the usual pinball crowd, and is selling to fans of the band also. My distro told me a lot of new people bought an AC/DC. That was something he also does not see repeated soon.

So if let's say the average game sell around a 1000 units these days, that really is a far cry from the 8000 LOTR and TSPP sold. Hell Stern told they sold around 5000 units last year, so even a whole year worth of games can't come close to what LOTR and TSPP sold. And that is the year that included AC/DC! Do you really think 2013 has the same chance of selling the units 2012 did, or even improve that number? I really hope so, but i doubt it.

In the end a company has to be profitable to survive. Ok Stern is charging a lot of money compared to the old days, but time was different then. They try to make as much as possible knowing the limited units they sell now. You can't blame them for testing the waters, any sane company does that. And i think Stern and even JJP is finding out that around 7000$ to 7500$ is the threshold many are not willing to cross so easily. Not unless the product is a known succes or popular theme (AC/DC , the hobbit).

But like it has been said many times we talk with our wallets (goes for everything we buy), and you can't really blame Stern far charging that much money when people are buying them up so far. Ok there are a few hickups, TF comes to mind, but if the update is a real succes, the rest of the units will also sell out.

In the end Stern makes solid pins, sure they can be in need of tweaks and the occasional tuning. But they always take their responsibility in these cases (aux board, TF airballscreen).
But i really doubt the others (JJP, JPOP and so on...) will be spared of that. I can only hope they will come through as good as Stern does so far.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't care if they make 1. For $7k it needs to be perfect.

If you want perfection, better don't buy pins then.

Let's be honest when thinking how long ago the "old days" were.

I completely agree that people keep buying them so why not raise the price. You have a built in segment of people that are going to love it no matter what. Then a remaining amount that swore never to buy

Does Xmen come to mind?

The interesting thing about the price rising is that most other hobbies I'm into have the exact same threads on their forums about companies raising prices extremely high. I'm big into miniature wargaming and there's the same issue. Anyone else here have hobbies that are experiencing this?

In just the last couple years?

You're in the wrong hobby. You can't have perfection when you have a manual, human labor intensive manufacturing process. Simply cannot. The reason the Japanese came in and started kicking ass on autos was their qc and that was mainly due to the way the automated the assembly line. Want a perfect Pin - you need to fully automate its production. Machines need to be putting the entire thing together. As in the previous post above, with runs of 5000 games annually that is never going to happen.

Funny. Looks like there's an Xmen in your collection.
Isn't that the pin that's the most talked about when people criticize owners for buying a Stern with incomplete code?
"Hey Kettle: It's me, Pot...
You're black!"

They have done that already...see Iron Man Home Version. MDF.

But why not just make the LE model as the stock model? Like MB or MM. And not have two versions, one of which has watered down gameplay, and removed features. If MB and MM were good enough for operators then why are Stern LE games considered to be games marketed for the home and the 'pro' models are for arcades and routes?

If Stern had made all of the ACDC models just the premium version and lowered the price just small mount, a few hundred dollars even, couldn't they have sold as many total ACDC units? I don't see the benefit of having a cheap 'pro' model and an expensive LE model. Why not just make one model and sell it with price point closer to the LE cost but not cut out a whole bunch of features. How many 'pro' buyers would have not purchased ACDC at all if a slightly less expensive, but same quality, ACDC Premium was the only available model?

ACDC sold well (and continues to sell) because it is a good game. If Stern had been making games like IM or X-Men the same quality as ACDC Premium then they'd have those titles be just as successful in my opinion. Look at Stern's most recent success. ACDC...their best quality game in a long while. Maybe instead of watering down their games and focusing on stripped down 'pro' models they should be looking at making their premium content the standard for all models. And making the LE versions like BIBLE or LTBR.

Not only that but you make one model and the playfield parts are all the same. Software is the same. It seems like less work and the results are a higher quality product. This is what JJP is doing with WOZ. One gameplay model with the LE models having only cosmetic differences.

Because then they won't have a guaranteed sell of <insert number of LEs here> machines from pre-orders.

Right...but they want to sell whether its good or not. The LE guarantees a certain number of machines sold.

Not sure if it is the best QUALITY game in a long time, but it is probably the most FUN since IM.

Agreed. These are still handmade on an assembly line. The only way to get perfection is to get automated or get a HEP restored pin that one guy works on for a few months. Imagine if Stern built pins like that, they could crank out maybe 1 every couple weeks and it would cost 25K.

Agreed - that's the other alternative but watch that $7000 price double

the only reason DE and Sega's feel or sound cheaper, is because the Pop unit is a whole separate piece. It makes more of a plasticy sound when hit. I used to think DE felt cheap too. But the more I studied why they sound different, the more I figured out it was mainly the pops. THe pop unit being separate is actually awesome. It sounds and feels cheaper, but is it amazing to work on when the whole unit comes right out. Later year Segas there are shortcuts left and right. But early Segas (large DMD era) are top notch. Tons of toys, and built well. ID4 and SST era. not so much. That's when things went super cheap and shitty.

I think you will see better quality control on future machines. We do voice your opinions and concerns to Stern and some tell it like it is! No Sugar Coating from GAP !

Only time will tell.

GAP

Perfection? I am just looking for reasonable quality at the 7K price point. Today, that does not exist with Stern.

I think Clay did a great job with his capsule summary of a Hulk LE, which can be applied to most new Sterns: "This is a great $4500 pinball machine!"

I know, I know. It's all relative to what people will pay, what used games are selling for, etce tc. But still. That statement really does ring true.

There's nothing stopping Stern's price increases and quality cuts, because there's no tangible competition yet. Many won't buy a game until it exists and they can get a shipping notice, and a certain segment must have the newest machine and post pictures of the box opening party, etc. Until some of the several companies threatening to ship NIB machines actually give that segment a choice, then Stern can do whatever the F they want! If the license is appeals to 20-50 year old males, then they'll sell pins.

In a couple years, when you can order a new JJP, a Skitb, a Heighway, a Zidware, a Multimorphic, (among others) and get it shipped to you that same week, it'll be a different sticker price/quality threshold from Stern.

You guys are just being ridiculous. What I meant was that I don't want unidentifiable plastics breaking and fuses blowing from holding down the flipper button for a minute and a half (both recent threads). These are supposed to be commercial quality machines and they are flat out flimsy. They are not built to the level of their price like older machines were, even older Sterns.

It seems to me Stern is going to keep chopping away at their material cost until these machines regularly fail in home use. Read the amount of comments just in this thread that say Stern customer service is great for broken machines... Why do so many people need to test that?
These are supposedly commercial machines, they should never be challenged in the pampered environment of home use.

I firmly believe that many of the Stern advocates on this forum are huge shareholders in the largest manufacturers of dremels.

After some reflection tonight, I've asked my distributor to cancel my ac/dc preorder. It's a great game, and I've loved playing it, but with the quality concerns and the production delays, I can't keep dreaming upon this star....

Thanks GAP!

to be fair. People shouldn't be buying based fully upon quality. Quality is satisfactory in general. Should be based upon Price and fun factor. THe problem is, the quality and price arn't in the same league, and that's where we are getting problems.

Quality, value for money, pre game testing, lack of complete code, lack of variety of themes, lack of quality parts, lack of variety in game play, lack of instructions/ information in status menu, cheap decals, thin paint on lockdown bars and side rails, single tube in backbox, lack of innovation....

Nah not many things to work on.....

I think the majority of people who are satisfied have not had issues with quality, have bought a game where they love the theme so much so that they are not concerned with other issues.

well you can't say anything about the cheap decals. Bally williams did this before anyone else. Least all DE games are screen printed cabinets. Wish I could say the same for my atlantis and Shadow. Holy shit, let the wrinkling begin. MM, MB, AFM owners also know the wrath of cheap factory decals. Unfortunately. B/W were the first on the cost cutting in that department.

But I agree, with the plastic aprons, no playfield rails, lack of toys. Shitty lamp sockets..... which normally would be fine. Cut costs to keep your price point the same for your customers. OH wait. :/

You'll be happy you did.

MM is screened directly to the cab right? Is that why MM Doesn't have the wrinkling issues MB had?

Agree to a point however given that nothing has changed in the last 20 years or so you have to ask yourself could they have not done as good as job as JJP by printing the art directly on to the wood??? Another example of a new company doing something better than a company that has been around for 60 years....

actually some MM's were screen printed. If your lucky enough to have one of those. Never ever redecal it. I had one that was screen printed as well. But there was a nice gash in one side. THe guy that bought it wanted it decalled. What a shame. Could have been touched up and looked great. 80% of MM's are wrinkle decal nightmares. Be happy you have one of the 20%'s.

Gottlieb never used decals. Either did DE. SEGA did tho. But they don't seem to have the wrinkling issues that B/W was seeing. Don't get that part.

Keep your eyes open for a HUO one for sale. While the vast majority of owners love the pin, it isn't for everyone (it can be an ass kicker), and they will pop up for sale from time to time.

HUO has advantages over NIB. You know exactly what you are getting, and any issues should have been ironed out (assuming you get it from a known pinhead that can be trusted).

Ass kicker my ass. Didn't you just see that video of 1 billion on the first ball? Game is way to easy. That's a piece of cake.

Hey I was just commenting on you wanting a perfect pin for $7k. Quality of parts aside it simply wouldn't happen because of how they're assembled.

I love the pins Stern has been putting out the last couple of years. They are on a great roll right now. I just hate that they are cutting costs and the machines seem/feel cheaper. The quality control to me is a separate issue, but equally unfortunate and disappointing.

This discussion is all over the board. As for quality, are we talking QC or quality of the parts used? Price seems to be irrelevant. I see price keeps being brought up. The pin is either high quality or its not. The price tag doesn't change that.

As for QC, sure there are QC issues. But once these are fixed, are the pins considered decent quality? According to LTG who had been around for a long time, the B/W QC was no better than current Stern QC. I take that as fact since I wasn't around to know. It seems the QC can be improved though. But it's also not terrible. Anyone buying a pin be it new or old, should expect to have up put some time into small tweaks. That's the hobby. If you can't deal with that you're in the wrong hobby.

As for quality, what are we talking about? For example, I have no desire to have my stern cabinets be thicker or heavier. What purpose would that serve? None of the cabinets are spontaneously falling apart. They are built as strong as they need to be. Playfields don't need to be thicker or heavier. The ball won't roll any different. I've never seen a stern warped playfield because its too thin or light. Flipper and coil mechs are fine on sterns. The board set is simple and easy to work on. The physical quality of the machines only need to be good enough so that its not falling apart or breaking more than other pins. Who cares if its lighter? Good! Easier to move. Honestly, the quality seems just fine.

Now as for price. Everyone seems to think price should reflect the build of materials (BOM) used. Total nonsense. The total cost to develop the games have little to do with the BOM. Take a video game. They sell for $60 and come on a 50 cent DVD. Some are better than others. Some are $10 others are $70. No one in their right mind should be bitching about the disc being too light or thin or the fact that the disc could be pressed for 50 cents. There is other software that sells for thousands - on the same disc or even via electronic download which costs even less.

To that end, development costs at stern are probably more now than ever. They hired the best talent in the business. Steve, George, Lyman, John. Those guys will demand a decent salary. When you get a game from them, you're buying their engineering work - the things they do to a game to make it fun. That's the quality. Again comparing to video games, they all come on the same disc, but they are not all equally fun. It's the development that goes into the game that makes it fun. That is quality also.

Take a game like acdc which most of us love. Is that a compatible game to a Sega? If you're only looking at bom maybe. But if you look at the whole package, no way. Remember that the talent that was working for B/W moved over and made games for stern after. Stern has used greats such as Dennis Nordman, Pat Lawlor, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez, and John has grown working for them to equal footing. There's more to a game than a BOM list. The quality is also in the fun factor.

The Law what makes you say that? many on these forums have AC/DC and love it!