Rockford, IL
black hole
(Topic ID: 319771)
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Quoted from gdonovan:I know a great deal being an individual who actually manages people and has a payroll budget.
You talk cost of labor here, but ignore Stern, JJP, Chicago Gaming and Spooky who all make games here. Stern is currently selling Pro Mandalorian & Rush titles in the $6500 range which is a far more complex games than 80's Bally with modern franchise licensing costs to boot.
Again; ask Jersey Jack how making pinball outside of Chicago worked out for him.
My calculation is based on materiel costs which are cheaper here. A lot cheaper here. And a simpler machine to boot.
I think you are confusing "less complex" with "me no see ramps n stuff this game cheap" I guarantee the BOM on many classic ballys is higher than most modern pins. You think they could build electra or vector today? Have you seen underneath those playfields? Also I'm curious, how much "cheaper" do you think a single color display is vs an LCD?
Quoted from gdonovan:You imply a game with a ramp is cheaper than a game with a drop target bank, I'm merely pointing out that Fathom not only has a drop target bank it has three of them. So "drop target banks are more expensive than ramps" is somewhat a weak and odd argument.
Haggis is actually making games with them, one assumes its profitable to do so.
Frankly I can't recall anyone but you making the comparison because no one disputes a ramp is cheaper than a drop target bank unless you want to discuss games like Time Machine that require a 30k 2 piece aluminum form to make the whirlpool ramp. Great if running off a few thousand for mass production, not so much for limited production game.
Games with ramps tend to be expensive for other reasons; electronics, mechanical complexity, toys, etc. A node board alone is $400+
FYI you may wish to check prices on some ramps, I did a quick look on Marco pinball and some ramps are rather pricey.
If games with drops were cost prohibitive, then we would see games without them. Instead we see that beacon of cost cutting Stern actually installing them on Jurassic Park "The Pin" with MDF playfield, Ikea cabinet and missing node board.
But the damn thing has a drop target bank. And TWO ramps!
For $4500
Your argument is invalid. Ironic Stern would drive it home for me, forgot all about the Stern Jurassic pin.
I really assume its not profitable for Haggis tbh. Buying ramps from Marco and what it costs mfg's to make ramps in mass quantities are 2 entirely different things. I think what it boils down to here is exactly what you said "You're assuming" and it seems like your assumptions are based on a lot of things I don't think you quite understand. Its kind of like how I always see people say Stern's Beatles must have a low BOM and was a CaSh GrAb because theres "nothing in it" but from what I understand its BOM was at the normal or higher rate as any other premium model, plus the incredibly expensive license.
Quoted from gdonovan:Why are they in business then? You are literately stating their business model sucks and they are going to fail.
Yes I think their business model sucks. I would not be shocked to see them go out of buisiness or at the very least a fairly substantial price increase on the next title.
Quoted from gdonovan:Well aware of it and alluded to it with Time Machine ramp reference, was just for a point of reference ramps not cheap ether. Stainless costs, fabrication, bucks and molds all suck up front end money too.
Again, you just don't get it. The molds can be expensive, sure. But its a 1 time cost. And thats spread out over the course of the run with cheap plastic ramps after that. Drop target banks are fairly complex mechanical devices that all must be hand assembled and use a ton of parts. Honestly I'm shocked at how long the drop target vs ramp price debate has raged on. Its silly, and the whole point of it is just to illustrate that most or all of your assumptions are incorrect in most circumstances. Just because "well I found one example that maybe just maybe and really I'm just guessing but in my mind it makes sense, even though what makes sense in my mind isn't founded in actual reality" doesn't prove your point.
Quoted from gdonovan:I'm assuming little, the prices quoted below are freely available.
I understand somewhere between Sterns $4500 JP home pin, Stern $6600 Pro's and Haggis $7500 Fathom remake there is a market for certain "classic pins"
Stern Pinball could pull it off with ease, I don't see it happening as Gary Stern has made it clear in an interview or two he has no interest in "looking backward" and the Gary Stern Retirement Fund is going to be powered by 3 licensed new titles and 1 rerun/vault per year. Right from the horses mouth.
Aside from some goofy one offs like the Primus/Whoa Nelly/Pabst Can Crusher, Heavy Metal and the home pin lineup which are good for expanding Stern's market reach but I wager don't bring in the big bucks but help reduce the hardware costs further (volume parts discounts, increased profit margin) and keep the lines jumping.
Its all academic aside from what Haggis doing (and of course Chicago Gaming who has staked out the high end remakes) and I wish them luck, the last two years have been a tough road for everyone.
And just to be clear; I don't think they have to be perfect down to the last nut and bolt remakes. If they had modern boards, pcb based lamps (like Haggis) and several other over the counter parts from newer machines there is a normie market segment who would snap them up. Nostaglia sells and a number of people have no interest whats under the hood as long as it looks like the one they played in their youth. Which again, is what Haggis is doing. The under playfield looks nothing like classic Bally and people are willing to wait years for them.
You're assuming a lot. Like everything. Your assumptions are based of some data points sure, but those data points tell very little of the actual story. Also, just no. By in large, the community is not clamoring for remakes of pre-dmd era games. Just because you are, doesn't mean most are. If they were, Haggis would have sold way more Fathoms than they did, and keep in mind probably a majority of those sales were Mermaid editions. People want the extra bling, but more importantly, they wanted what could be a rare collector item. Lets not forget that these were announced when pretty much any pinball announcement would sell relative gangbusters. So the best possible scenario to entice buyers. I know you think you got it all figured out, but you don't. I don't either to be perfectly clear, but the whole point of everything here is that the BOM on these old games is anywhere from barely lower to much higher on current games. You can't make an old game and sell it for 5k and stay in business, unless maybe (and this is a huge MAYBE) somehow you can move thousands and thousands of units which just won't happen
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