Nobody is making an exact replica. As you say, there are cost saving measures with modern tech, and if that is compatible with the requirements, that is what will be used.

Many classic SS titles are for sure cost effective to remake when you get into the 7+k mark that you would be into for a pristine example, and the margin will improve with volume.

IDK, having trouble seeing this.. I understand the B+W titles are still crazy for BOM, but most classics are not that crazy when you break it down.

Lets see 2 sets of 3 in line drop targets, a center 3 bank target, and a row or 6 drop targets for 15 total drops... Plus a spinner, rollover... squak and talk. Pretty loaded.

OP needs to change the thread title to, "Which SS games should be remade and of course they should be cheaper?" because clearly that's what this thread has turned into.

Seems like a good feature, to automatically suffix this to all posts in "Buying and Selling Advice"

Seems simple enough.

Someone should be able to knock those off in small numbers at like $1200 a machine!

After all there’s no ramps nor LCD screen.

You imply a game with a ramp is cheaper than a game with a drop target bank, I'm merely pointing out that Fathom not only has a drop target bank it has three of them. So "drop target banks are more expensive than ramps" is somewhat a weak and odd argument.

Haggis is actually making games with them, one assumes its profitable to do so.

Frankly I can't recall anyone but you making the comparison because no one disputes a ramp is cheaper than a drop target bank unless you want to discuss games like Time Machine that require a 30k 2 piece aluminum form to make the whirlpool ramp. Great if running off a few thousand for mass production, not so much for limited production game.

Games with ramps tend to be expensive for other reasons; electronics, mechanical complexity, toys, etc. A node board alone is $400+

FYI you may wish to check prices on some ramps, I did a quick look on Marco pinball and some ramps are rather pricey.

If games with drops were cost prohibitive, then we would see games without them. Instead we see that beacon of cost cutting Stern actually installing them on Jurassic Park "The Pin" with MDF playfield, Ikea cabinet and missing node board.

But the damn thing has a drop target bank. And TWO ramps!

For $4500

Your argument is invalid. Ironic Stern would drive it home for me, forgot all about the Stern Jurassic pin.

I really assume its not profitable for Haggis tbh. Buying ramps from Marco and what it costs mfg's to make ramps in mass quantities are 2 entirely different things. I think what it boils down to here is exactly what you said "You're assuming" and it seems like your assumptions are based on a lot of things I don't think you quite understand. Its kind of like how I always see people say Stern's Beatles must have a low BOM and was a CaSh GrAb because theres "nothing in it" but from what I understand its BOM was at the normal or higher rate as any other premium model, plus the incredibly expensive license.

Why are they in business then? You are literately stating their business model sucks and they are going to fail.

Well aware of it and alluded to it with Time Machine ramp reference, was just for a point of reference ramps not cheap ether. Stainless costs, fabrication, bucks and molds all suck up front end money too.

I'm assuming little, the prices quoted below are freely available.

I understand somewhere between Sterns $4500 JP home pin, Stern $6600 Pro's and Haggis $7500 Fathom remake there is a market for certain "classic pins"

Stern Pinball could pull it off with ease, I don't see it happening as Gary Stern has made it clear in an interview or two he has no interest in "looking backward" and the Gary Stern Retirement Fund is going to be powered by 3 licensed new titles and 1 rerun/vault per year. Right from the horses mouth.

Aside from some goofy one offs like the Primus/Whoa Nelly/Pabst Can Crusher, Heavy Metal and the home pin lineup which are good for expanding Stern's market reach but I wager don't bring in the big bucks but help reduce the hardware costs further (volume parts discounts, increased profit margin) and keep the lines jumping.

Its all academic aside from what Haggis doing (and of course Chicago Gaming who has staked out the high end remakes) and I wish them luck, the last two years have been a tough road for everyone.

And just to be clear; I don't think they have to be perfect down to the last nut and bolt remakes. If they had modern boards, pcb based lamps (like Haggis) and several other over the counter parts from newer machines there is a normie market segment who would snap them up. Nostaglia sells and a number of people have no interest whats under the hood as long as it looks like the one they played in their youth. Which again, is what Haggis is doing. The under playfield looks nothing like classic Bally and people are willing to wait years for them.

Yes I think their business model sucks. I would not be shocked to see them go out of buisiness or at the very least a fairly substantial price increase on the next title.

Again, you just don't get it. The molds can be expensive, sure. But its a 1 time cost. And thats spread out over the course of the run with cheap plastic ramps after that. Drop target banks are fairly complex mechanical devices that all must be hand assembled and use a ton of parts. Honestly I'm shocked at how long the drop target vs ramp price debate has raged on. Its silly, and the whole point of it is just to illustrate that most or all of your assumptions are incorrect in most circumstances. Just because "well I found one example that maybe just maybe and really I'm just guessing but in my mind it makes sense, even though what makes sense in my mind isn't founded in actual reality" doesn't prove your point.

You're assuming a lot. Like everything. Your assumptions are based of some data points sure, but those data points tell very little of the actual story. Also, just no. By in large, the community is not clamoring for remakes of pre-dmd era games. Just because you are, doesn't mean most are. If they were, Haggis would have sold way more Fathoms than they did, and keep in mind probably a majority of those sales were Mermaid editions. People want the extra bling, but more importantly, they wanted what could be a rare collector item. Lets not forget that these were announced when pretty much any pinball announcement would sell relative gangbusters. So the best possible scenario to entice buyers. I know you think you got it all figured out, but you don't. I don't either to be perfectly clear, but the whole point of everything here is that the BOM on these old games is anywhere from barely lower to much higher on current games. You can't make an old game and sell it for 5k and stay in business, unless maybe (and this is a huge MAYBE) somehow you can move thousands and thousands of units which just won't happen

I'm out.

Definitely appreciation-wise (and a good case can be made for otherwise), I'll venture to say the best to own is FunHouse.

I've claimed mine is bolted to the floor for sentimental reasons, but when it's up to over three times what my late wife bought it for me for, minimum, sentimentality can begin to waver...

Well, this started as a great thread…

Agree....great thread topic. Would actually like to pick this back up minus the 'how to run a pinball company' slide. Actually considering buying an SS and have never owned one. So would really like to hear about which ones to stay away from and how different/more difficult the maintenance can be vs a mid 90's DMD pin. Would really like to hear more opinions....

If you truly love a thread, you must set it free.

I hear ya brotha...

So what are you getting OP?

So when are you picking up Big Game?

Fair point; there is one listed in Mi right now.

Maintenance-wise, I would say similar, maybe a bit more for the boards. I'm pretty familiar with Bally AS-2815 games and though there's a learning curve, once you get it, it's not too bad.

If you're patient enough you can get one for a decent price. Sterns from this era use the same boardsets as ballys, so pick up a cheap Meteor or Galaxy and start there.

Another vote for Sea Witch. Absolute classic and love the layout.

Try, XENON.........Try a TUBE shot.......

So how do we feel about black hole? I’ve never owned one but it seems pretty desirable.

One of the best.

Good rules, lower pf challenge, good bonus system, extra flippers, cool bg, one of the best solid state tilt sounds! . Only reason I don't own it is I can travel To two friends that will never sell theirs!

Naturally. With licensed games, no teenager is going to walk into a pinball spot and say, "Deadpool? Get outta here. I wanna play this old one based on a 90s movie I never heard of that was made before I was born."

Pass. Haunted house is better. But, too much wasted real estate to allow for the lower playfield. It’s cool to play at friends’ houses.

For early 80's Bally SS's....which ones have the longest ball times in your opinions?

Hmmm....Centaur is long with outlane posts & MBs

Really comes down to set up...

All things being equal tho, I have found fathom to be pretty forgiving.

Good to know. I really like the theme of fathom out of most of the bally pins from that era but I have not played one. About the only ones I remember playing as a kid were Paragon and Centaur....the rest were mostly Williams and a couple Sterns. Never owned a Bally but really like the look/build style over others of this era...

I play road kings more than taxi and pinbot combined. It's one of those games that the more you play it, the better it gets. LOVE that game.

Hoops

I mean, if you have the money and some patience, you could probably find a nice one. But, I don't know if this is the game that I would suggest to someone to purchase before suggesting 20 other classic titles that have great replay value for less than half the price of a Hoops. It's an expensive game these days. It would be like suggesting he buy a Defender. Much better suggestions than that game.

Ultimately, the best SS games to own is the one that he can find, afford, and likes the best.

I have no experience with Zacs but i’ve owned FP twice and tbh i wish i still did. The sounds are very nostalgic to me as an 80’s kid.

That’s a helluva game..trying to decide upon the best early ss is like choosing a favourite playmate of the month..

It’s okay. Beeps and boops are lame, but the shots are decently satisfying and has okay rules. If it’s a good price grab it up and try it for a while!

I like it but the sounds are not great. It does have great spinner and bonus multiplier rules. Kind of has a jackpot shot if you get max bonus with 5x lit and go into the saucer for bonus collect… a 145K collect.

Early Solid State 1979ish-1989ish

Genie, Star Racer, Black Hole, Rock, PinBot, Time-Machine, Hollywood Heat, Robot, Spectrum, Haunted House and TX-Sector...

I'm fed up with people suggesting Spectrum is a good game worth owning. I can't even understand why anyone who likes pinball would want to own, or why anyone even enjoys playing that game.

Fair enough... I have to admit it's not the best game, I like the attract mode...

having burned through nothing but early SS williams, gottliebs, zaccs and ballys. Heres my .02. avoid Zaccs, nothing but great art work to right home about but we re not buying pictures here.
Bally have an 8 ball for the old man good game that draws people in. Don't see the allure to 8BD have owned 2, sold them because i got them cheap enough to move on.
Space shuttle has made an appearance twice in my game room. the last one made it 2-3 years after i hard topped it. Great great game. Same goes with
Time machine im on my second one, and about to let it go. Great game
Sword of fury- regret every second of selling it
Black knight- have owned 2 miss it
Black hole or any Gottlieb: set them on fire. The biggest pain in the ass to keep running. With that said about to buy another one maybe i like Pain and frustration.
Big guns on my second one, good game cool theme but easy to play/ learn
Stern lightning: plays like black knight didn't do it for me
DE HOOK with up dated code its a sleeper! great Pin for the money!
BK2000: good fun game drooled over one for years got one and got bored with it
DE Simpson got boring quick, loved the theme.
Stern Family guy: great game my crews lounge at one of my bases had on on free play and this is what got me hooked. Spent hours on playing this

If you were to ask me what SS pin is the best one to purchase, the answer would be the same as-if you would have asked me what is the greatest pin of all-time.

IT'S WITHOUT A DOUBT BALLY EIGHT BALL DELUXE!

All the rest are turds in comparison... even brand-new machines.

It's no mystery why EBD is the most sought-after title from the era and is one of the most wanted pins of all-time.

That’s one sweet lineup!

ALGAR KORA!!!!!! i.e. Lion da Man!!

Except that dang backglass CHET!!! needs be gone. But EBD with a few others is da chit.

Hahaha.

Took me so long to buy a gottlieb because people kept saying this. Once a gottlieb has been gone through properly, they are just as bulletproof as anything else.