If this is ready to go, why not just implement the Pro-Am systems in 2018? Why go through the hassle of a 2018 pay for points and lose players that can easily be saved now by simply implementing the Pro-Am system?

It seems to me that both sides would be satisfied. The SCS and National events will surely get more than $320 per state (on average) that is generated in 2017. And players that do not wish to fund the SCS/National events can continue unhindered into 2018.

Marcus

I'm on the same page. Sorry if it came across as one tournament that satisfied both Pro and Amateur status.

In my mind, in a 2018 Pro-Am IFPA World, TDs have the two options

1) Send in $1/player and get WPPR points that count towards the "Pro" standings, and by default the SCS/National competitions.
2) Submit scores without sending $1/player and get WPPR points that count towards "Amateur" standings. These results will not count towards the current SCS/National competitions.

TDs can advertise to their appropriate market and players will know in advance if they are earning Pro or Amateur WPPR points.

I think if you follow this approach, you will serve both the Pro and Amateur players.

Just my 0.02.

Marcus

I think the Amateur system would mean something to players since it still provides a "ranking" by which you can compare yourself to other players. Now, I agree that it will not hold the same "prestige" as today's WPPR ranking, but this would be the perfect test as it does not "force" players to partake in a system that they find unfair. It will also keep the zero dollar players playing pinball in a competitive form. And that is the most important aspect for me. Keeping my local players playing competitive pinball is my number one priority.

Personally, as a TD, I'm going to find a way to pay the $1/person to keep my events "Pro". Luckily, I have a great group of players that will most likely pony up their $1. And for those that don't, I'm sure as a collective we will be able to cover the difference.

Marcus

I do not think you give IFPA the credit it deserves for building competitive pinball.

If IFPA disappeared tomorrow, and the rankings with it, competitive pinball would still exist in some form.

PAPA would still be a very popular circuit. Some leagues would continue to thrive.

But you would lose a large, casual player base that enjoys the flavor that IFPA adds to the Pinball experience.

While IFPA is not solely responsible for the rise of competitive pinball, it was the driving force behind the resurgence IMO.

It provided the tools that passionate pinball players needed to grow competitive pinball.

Marcus

It is completely fair when it is made clear that a paid entry is required to participate in the event. Let the player decide if the paid tournament entry is worth it to them. If the paid tournament entry cost is not worth it to a player, then a player makes the choice not to participate. If it is worth it to the player, then the player will join the event.

There is nothing unfair about the process. There is a risk, and players will need to determine if the risk is acceptable to them.

If you are playing in an IFPA sanctioned tournament, then you are playing in the SCS/National qualifying event. Only the player can decide if the risk is worth it.

Marcus

In the event that a player, such as yourself, wants to take a stand and not be included in the final standings submitted to IFPA, then of course I would simply not include you in the final standings sent to IFPA. Not a single dollar would be sent in on your behalf. And we would not have infringed on your right to take a stand. You would still be able to play, and even win the event.

But when the standings were sent to IFPA, your participation in the event will not be logged and/or recognized by the IFPA, per your wishes.

As for a second league, it does not have to be an "us or them" situation. If you decided to run unranked events, the chances are pretty high that Ken, Kevin, Rickie and I would still attend for the fun of competition. Just like we did before IFPA Points were a "thing" in our area.

Now, would you still be opposed to supporting our local leagues if the IFPA $1/person cost was covered by sponsorship?
Will you stop participating in TPF Tournament when a portion of your entry is used to cover the IFPA cost?

Marcus

Any player that played 10- events are considered casual players. The players typically play pinball for fun and care little for SCS.
Any player that played 11-20 events are considered mild interest players. Dedicated, but not serious about making SCS.

Any player that played in 20+ events was actively trying to make the SCS.

So based on that understanding, here is how different groups would have contributed to IFPA Nationals and WI SCS in 2016.

404 Players played in 01-10 events accounted for 990 entries, which equals $990 collected, with $742.50 (WI) & $247.5 (IFPA)
29 Players played in 11-20 events accounted for 421 entries, which equals $421 collected, with $315.75 (WI) & $105.25 (IFPA)

Total Casual portion: 433 Players created 1,321 entries, which equals $1,411 collected, with $1,058.25 (WI) & $352.75 (IFPA)

16 Players played in 21-30 events accounted for 424 entries, which equals $424 collected, with $318 (WI) & $106 (IFPA)
14 Players played in 31-40 events accounted for 488 entries, which equals $488 collected, with $366 (WI) & $122 (IFPA)
7 Players played in 41-50 events accounted for 319 entries, which equals $319 collected, with $293.25 (WI) & $79.75 (IFPA)
2 Players played in 51-60 events accounted for 110 entries, which equals $110 collected, with $82.50 (WI) & $27.50 (IFPA)

Total Serious portion: 39 Players created 1,341 entries, which equals $1,341 collected, with $1,005.75 (WI) & $333.25 (IFPA)

The Grand Total collected $2,752, with $2,064 (WI) & $688 (IFPA)

433 Casual Players contributed $1,411, which is 52.27% of the total collected. This group averaged $2.45 per person per year.
39 Serious Players contributed $1,341, which is 48.73% of the total collected. This group averaged $25.91 per person per year.

472 Players contributed $2,752 in total.

The average cost to play all IFPA events by groups

404 Players playing 01-10 events averaged $2.45 a person per year (Casual just wants to play pinball)
29 Players playing 11-20 events averaged $14.52 a person per year (Interest in points & Interested in being ranked via SCS)
16 Players playing 21-30 events averaged $26.50 a person per year (Very Interested in points & Serious about earning SCS spot)
14 Players playing 31-40 events averaged $34.86 a person per year (Serious into points & Serious about earning SCS spot)
7 Players playing 41-50 events averaged $45.57 a person per year (Hardcore into points & Hardcore SCS)
2 Players playing 51-60 events averaged $55 a person per year. (Hardcore into points & Hardcore SCS)

Take these numbers as you wish. They are just numbers.

Marcus

Only if the TD is collecting the $1 as a separate fee AND the TD is willing to do the extra leg work of removing your name from the final submission to IFPA.

For example, a TD may have organized an IFPA event that is free to play but requires $1 from players that wish to have results submitted to IFPA.

If you do not pay the $1, your results are not included in the IFPA submission.

Now, if someone else adds one dollar to cover your share, then your results would be included in the final submission to IFPA.

The IFPA does not care how the money is collected. The IFPA only cares that there is $1 for every person listed in the submission.

If there are 16 players listed, the IFPA expects $16 from the TD before the event will be confirmed for points.

Hopes this helps.

Marcus