Uhh

Dude nothing I said in that quote was directed towards you or anyone personally. Are you reading what I wrote or reading into it?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this $1 fee will likely not change tournament participation in a measurable fashion. Mark it and we'll confirm in 2019.

I quoted your post. It said what it said," ones who actually have a competitive spirit and a drive to win."

So what do the other players have?

Don't back out now. Own it, at least.

I seriously think you misread the situation man.

First off, I was speaking specifically about players who attend a couple of tournaments and never return. Somehow you managed to think that was about you, even after we established earlier in the thread that you are a highly active player. I was simply making a point that catering to people who have no interest in competitive play is a waste of time. Again, that is clearly not you.

Second, saying things like "people who do not have a competitive drive will not engage in competition" is not an insult, any more than saying something like "people who are not academically inclined will not go to college" or "people who are not socially inclined will not attend parties." People have different personalities that draw them towards different activities. Competitive people will want to engage in competition, and noncompetitive people will avoid it.

only 2 years? Shit I wish. I played my first tournament in 1992 in the IFPA. Didn't win my first trophy till 2009.

2 Questions:
1) We currently play a selfie league that has no entry fee. It was designed to draw interest from noobs and people who might be "intimidated by the formality of a direct tournament, while also giving the regulars an interest for 2 weeks at a time. It has absolutely created more interest in the game of pinball at the local level, and has increased the number of "rated" players on IFPA. The question is, in 2018, will we have to assess a $1 fee on everyone to "promote and develop the game of pinball," when we have already found a fabulous way of achieving the goal?

2) If all of the new $1 tax goes to the state and national championship pots, and we've agreed there is very little turnover in these tournaments; how is that going to grow the activity and interest in pinball as a whole? Where are the IFPA sponsored tutorials or workshops? What drives interest at the grassroots level? This is another aspect, with which I believe there is economically dishonest rhetoric being posited on this thread, that somehow increasing the cost of participation and giving that windfall to already elite players is going to "develop and promote the game of pinball."

Nope. I read what was there. "ones who actually have a competitive spirit and a drive to win."

What the words say is that if you want it bad enough or have enough drive, you'll get to the SCS or Nationals. It also implies that those who are already there are currently demonstrating said spirit and drive.

We both know neither of those statements are true. Your post did not need to have those words in it, but it had them. That mindset is not what makes the game/ community of pinball fun. I think that very frame of mind permeates the thoughts behind the change, but in making the alleged case for change, other kinder softer euphemisms are being utilized.

In the end, it doesn't really matter how it is said. What is going to happen is going to happen. The decision has already been made. That doesn't mean attitudes like that will not continue to divide what should be a fun, competitive, and inclusive culture.

1) No. Your TD is welcome to run that selfie league as a non-endorsed event and no $1 would need to be paid. It sounds like this is a perfect example of an event that doesn't need IFPA endorsement and will continue in 2018 regardless. We see that as a win as more people are playing competitive pinball even if they wouldnt become IFPA rated players.

2) I've seen a pretty high turnover at these events. Rarely are we getting the same State Champ every year. In Illinois at least we've had 3 different winners in the 4 years. Other States would have to speak up to their turnover. I've expressed my opinions that media coverage drives interest at the grass roots level. There more impressions you can land, the more people you can make aware of the game existing. We're focusing on proven methodology to drive that increased traffic in media coverage. For game tutorials check out what the PAPA guys do. We work together quite a bit to make sure our efforts don't overlap one another.

I don't play in tournaments. I'd love to, but there is nothing around me. I know I'll never be top dog but I'd love to compete. Hell, I'm probably actually a terrible player. I don't care if they said I had to play head to head against Lyman Sheets, I'd gladly pay 1 dollar to have the experience. I pay 1 dollar to play pinball all the time, so I don't see what the big deal is. Hopefully, a little cash influx can make tournaments more widespread and a little more mainstream.

No matter how many times you repeat this Josh, the opponents to your upcoming fee changes still don't like your system. It seems to make sense to me that if you want/choose to run a tournament without the $1 fee to IFPA you will have exactly the same situation that you've had in 2017, 2016, etc. Reading this discussion makes me question what are the true motives for being so outspoken in opposition to your changes. Or maybe it's just that people are upset that if they choose to do this, they won't get the WPPR points?

My thoughts exactly!!! In fact, to extend your comments... if IFPA increases exposure of pinball to the masses by growing the prize pool and getting more media coverage, then maybe, just maybe, our little sleepy town will have some entrepreneur that wants to start up a beercade or other place where a few pins can be located. Then, we may not have the same problem of not being able to play because there's nothing close by.

you have enough great games. What is stopping you now?

Player from Florida here.

We have had one repeat champion (my son), and of course many of the same cast of characters play in many events. However, there have been several new faces in the top 16 over the years and a hyper-exponential growth of tourneys in our state leading to a slew of new players competing for a spot in the SCS. I and several other people have made efforts to help others and promote competitive pinball in Florida and we feel it shows. It is really a fantastic time to be involved in competitive pinball.

And yes, to those who have brought it up, I and others have put money where our mouths are and paid for, or helped people with tourney fees-even before this $1.00 endorsement issue came up. Sometimes giving a little can yield great results. If I am at an IFPA Florida tourney and someone needs a dollar to make it happen, please come see me and I will gladly help you. I am easy to find

That is pretty much what all opposed are saying...

WPPRs are a good incentive to get people to play. People like the 'prestige' of saying they are a world ranked player and it provides a measuring stick for yourself.

$1 fee per event is a dis-incentive for many (or precieved it will be for those that have not tried it before). People dont like the 'pre$tige' of paying a fee for a state and national prize pool they have zero shot in playing in.

Many people seem more than comfortable and actually would like to support the IFPA for the free service they have provided for years. They would like to do this with an annual membership fee paid by each individual player.

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Exposure.

I've reached out to as many locals as I can find on pinside to see if anybody near me is interested in running a small local league with zero response. I feel like like I live in a black hole of pinball interest. I'm sure they're out there, but I just need to keep working to find them. I did have some interest from a few players at the tourney I went to in the cities about possibly driving the hour and a half up to my house and we'll see if that eventually plays out.

To me... broader state and national exposure of the hobby/sport is important because I feel it will get more people participating overall. Obviously, my support isn't completely around getting a tournament in my local villa. I just want to see the sport grow from where it is today.

Well here we are.....52% positive rating. On Pinside no less. Guess Josh and IFPA win.

Would be interesting to know how many out of the 195 "yes" votes are TDs. Hopefully a high percentage since I would hate to see a decline in IFPA events due to the TDs not wanting to deal with the hassle... I love competing in tourneys and tracking my points online. It's fun! I am happy to pay a buck. Hell, I would even go as high as 2 loonies. But, if there is no tourney or league to go to... well, it is just less fun to play pinball...

I suggest just finding a cool local bar with room for 4 pins at minimum and better would be 4 to start and room to grow. Put your 4 best pins out and start a monthly event (no entry fee and just coin drop to play; give a beer to the winner). You will get more local players doing this than any sort of national buzz from a 10k payout to an elite player funded on the backs of casual players.

Trust me on this. 5 years ago there was NOWHERE in madison to play good pinball and only 2 public events a year. A group of us put out some machines and started hosting a monthly. Now we have 4 locations (with over 30 pins currently) with an opportunity to compete weekly, multiple launch parties, all the newest games, and over 100 unique players each year (probably 40 somewhat regulars and 20 very active).

The BEST way to grow the sport is to just do it on your own. Up till now, the IFPA/WPPR system was another useful tool to help it grow. However, it is small potatoes in the grand scheme of growing your local pinball scene.

other then some legal issues and the issue of charity events with an for profit taking an admin fee.

THIS 100%. The things we're doing at IFPA is not mutually exclusive with the efforts that anyone else can do. Those efforts are done in tandum and all build towards positive things for competitive pinball.

Hilton is starting his own ranking system for Wisconsin which means that group is still being motivated to compete. That happens while we focus on building awareness of the game at a more macro level, using proven methods that have already worked for our Big Buck franchise.

That makes me think... Can we possibly work together to make the step from state to macro level easier for players?

Can I get a special admin section and set up where I can rank and track just WI players? I would take care of all the admin side of stuff and remove that burden, but woudl want to be able to basically track WI state stuff on an annual basis the same as it is now.

(dont say, yes but it will cost $1 per player per event, lol)

I am talking a state based system which is hosted by the IFPA and allows us to make the adjustments we need to stillt track all instate events. The net benefit for you is it would allow for a more seamless transition for those players that decide to take a more serious 'pro' level playing interest. The benefit for me, is your system alreayd works pretty good and players are familiar (that whole change is tough thing would be avoided)

Fighting the urge to say exactly this

I have no problem sending you all the data needed to build the rankings yourself (which of course I did already). We're not open to officially supporting non-IFPA related activity through our IFPA website, but I'm personally supportive of anyone wanting to do this on their own to promote pinball within their local community.

As you mentioned previously, it shouldn't be too challenging to get this started on your side with a couple of people smarter than the both of us.

Hang on, I detect some cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, this is not a cash grab, because IFPA says so, but on the other hand, we're all supposed to happily contribute to a prize pool that most have little chance of winning, in order to increase exposure and attract sponsors in order to crank up the cash even more?

And if it does attract more players to the hobby, won't that increase the demand for games and drive prices up even more, as if games doubling and tripling in value over the last 5 years wasn't enough? It's already ridiculous.

Some improvement.

And maybe it will turn off players, which obviously wouldn't be an improvement either. I'm in Wisconsin, but if I wasn't I'd state right now that I'm out for 2018. And I'm no slouch either, if I could do more tournaments I'd probably make SCS, last year I was close to the cutoff with just league and two tourneys.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Pinball has already enjoyed a revival in interest and sometimes it's a good idea to leave well enough alone. Money ruins things, so what else is new?

But good luck with your experiment! I think you will need it!

It's a dollar.

so you are saying you still dont get it...

It's cheaper than moving to WI and I want to see if the tried and true Big Buck Hunter strategy can help raise the profile and the cash.

The world champion of pinball just brought home $7,000 which is pathetic.

Times however many events, times however many players, added work for TDs, legal issues, into elite players' pockets, all to drive interest into a hobby that doesn't need it.

If seven large is pathetic, feel free to PayPal me a like amount anytime.

I'd say it ain't bad for a niche hobby. How much do top stamp collectors win?

That's some potent logic man. "I can't believe Aaron Rodgers won't play for $7,000 a game. That's serious money!!!"

That's loser talk bro.

you keep calling it a hobby but clearly it's more than that to many people. You think Big Buck Hunter is a "hobby?" They have a $75,000 prize pool. You lack self-worth as a pinball "hobbyist" if you think your skills are worth that much less than a big buck player.

Honestly, you probably shouldn't be playing competitive pinball at the "pro" level, since you lack the confidence/skills/dedication that you need if you'll ever wet your beak with the inflated prize money. And that's fine. What I see here is an opportunity to separate the "amateur" and the "professional" from the PAPA acronym. It's an opportunity to see if we can grow this thing and attract real interest that will never happen with penny ante $7,000 world championship payouts. You've stated - clearly and unambiguously- that you think things were just swell and shouldn't change. And that's why you should stop participating in IFPA events and instead embrace the Wisconsin Amateur Pinball Association.

Some of has have greater dreams, aspirations, and hope - of a promised land where people playing the game/sport we love at the highest possible level stand to reap the same rewards as some drunk asshole with a plastic orange gun and a pabst. We may not all get there together, as some leave for the amateur cheese circuit, but by God I think we WILL get there. Don't we owe it to ourselves to at least try?

If you aren't crying after reading that, you are dead inside.

WIPPA is more along the lines I was thinking. Wisconsin Professional Pinball Association

or
WIFPA Wisconsin Flipper Pinball Association

or just FPA for Flipper Pinball Association. If things works well then I see no reason to keep it limited to a single state.

I like the sound of WAh!PA points though. j/k

per every tournament you play.

Calling it "professional" is pretty misleading. How are you cheeseheads gonna call yourselves pros when you are playing free tournaments with no payouts?

I think it's a good idea for you guys but you need to make sure the only "P" in your acronym is "pinball."

Didn't mean it as a brag...I played a TON OF events in those two years...anything and everything I could possibly get to. But that just further illustrates the points. It's disheartening to play that long and not have a 1st place finish.

lol

Pretts sure there is NOBODY that is technically a professional in pinball. The P for Professional makes zero sense as it is used now if you want to get all technical.

"engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime."

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I'm starting to wonder if you are getting paid $1 for every post you make on this subject.

You add that to the $1 for every "totally awesome" post aboot Heighway pinball and that's a good salary

A "professional" salary I think! There are many possibilities:

PPOA: Professional Pinside Overposting Association
PPWSF: Professional Pinside Word Salad Federation
WWWWA: Wisconsin Wisconsin Wisconsin Wisconsin Association

Crying laughing maybe. "Professional pinball player" is an oxymoron.

I play pinball for fun. If I do well, that's great, if not, I don't lose any sleep over it, or fret that I'll never be a champion. Too much of it is luck to get worked up about it anyway. You want to feel inferior to a 13 year old, go ahead.

Aaron Rodgers' obscene salary is pertinent? Puh-leeze. Even a hundred grand pinball prize would be chump change compared to that.

I'd be fine with a $5 fee to be ranked each year, and the IFPA could do whatever they want with it, I wouldn't care.

And yes, it's a hobby if you haven't noticed. I maintain my own games but I bet Rodgers doesn't spend much time cutting the grass at Lambeau.

nah, when you lose as often as I have. It becomes natural and expected. I've come to terms with it to the point that anything besides losing, is a huge surprise.

Just how Canadian are you (trying to be)?

I can't operate that way competitively. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy for me. It's pretty much all or nothing, I don't have 'grey areas' when it comes to anything competitive...so when I get tired of all the drama and stress, I just remove myself completely from it, like I pretty much did last year.

So you are saying that you are not interested in creating a professional website with user accounts and basic yearly membership fees.
That's fine if the vision for the future of your website and organization is to be mediocre.
Continue as you were....

However, you may want to think a little "bigger" and hire someone to handle the wesite professionally so that you could, easily, implement that suggestion. Or at least not dismiss it outright with the only negative being you didn't want to take on more work.

Since this whole thread is confusing as all shit. I guess I have just one question.

If you don't give a shit about points. Can you opt out to not paying the $1, regardless of what the event is? So events that others are paying $1. Can you opt not to pay the $1, enjoy the tourny as normal, and just not get any points for it?

Not with that attitude. Some of us just aren't as satisfied with mediocrity.

Yes...but not in WI where it is apparently illegal to give out money/trophies/prizes for anything at all. So even if you opt out, "technically" no one can opt in, so it doesn't really matter.

Only if the TD is collecting the $1 as a separate fee AND the TD is willing to do the extra leg work of removing your name from the final submission to IFPA.

For example, a TD may have organized an IFPA event that is free to play but requires $1 from players that wish to have results submitted to IFPA.

If you do not pay the $1, your results are not included in the IFPA submission.

Now, if someone else adds one dollar to cover your share, then your results would be included in the final submission to IFPA.

The IFPA does not care how the money is collected. The IFPA only cares that there is $1 for every person listed in the submission.

If there are 16 players listed, the IFPA expects $16 from the TD before the event will be confirmed for points.

Hopes this helps.

Marcus