This thread is all over the place and contradicting … pinball needs diversity … we need segregated tournaments by gender to be fair … blah, blah, blah.

Human interests vary by countless attributes including race, gender, age, geography, nationality, financial status, mental aptitude, physical condition, etc. Different doesn’t mean better (necessarily), and lack of universal adoption doesn’t equate to those involved being evil. There is no need to artificially force something on a class of people, especially when they themselves couldn’t care less about it in general.

More specifically about women in pinball, it could be argued that as a group they are better than men. Statistically, the ratio of skilled players to the casual player may be higher (I don’t know for a fact) than what it is with males. Regardless, whatever appeals to an individual as it relates to competitive pinball, if a person is willing to put in the time and effort while having the aptitude and skill set required, then I don’t see how or why their gender wound give them an advantage or disadvantage.

For a similar argument, I would point to Robert Gagno. Some would say that a person with his mental and neurological challenges could never compete with the world’s best players, yet he earned the #1 ranking. In other words, achievement is about the individual and not a classification based on one’s immutable attributes. The fact that there are currently no females in the top rankings doesn’t mean their never will be.

Ultimately, pinball is a game of skill (strategy, situational awareness, reaction time, etc.) and not significantly influenced by athletic prowess. For me it just comes down to if/when a woman has the passion for and chooses to have the commitment it takes to compete at the highest level in pinball (I know I certainly don’t).

On a lighter note, as I was contemplating the athleticism required to play pinball this Kingpin clip kept popping into my head.

Do I need to quote post numbers? Go read the entire thread.

I don't think we are disagreeing. If a group of people wants to have their own league/tournaments, more power to them as they have every right to do so for whatever reason they want as long as it's not harmful to others (I don't care what the qualifying characteristics are). Ultimately, competition is about pushing yourself to be the best for the elite in any sport/activity, regardless of who you are competing against, and not just about having recreational fun.

Back to how this thread started was why are there no women in the top 25 rankings? My point is fairly simple: since there are no physical barriers or athletics disadvantages, what do you think a true competitor would prefer: Being the #1 female pinball player in the world or being one of the top 25 players in the world, period? While I'm sure anyone would take pride in being the #1 female, deservingly so, I postulate that being in the top 25 is a more impressive achievement and a greater source of personal pride (I'll leave it up to the female players to comment on this). In areas where neither males nor females have a biological advantage, I see no reason why both cannot compete on a level playing field. Again, in my mind it just comes down to someone with the required skills having a passion to do it, setting the goal, and working to achieve it, and there is nothing inherently holding a female back from doing so just because it isn't the case in this moment of time.

A few rules to live by pertaining to passionate discussions/arguments:

1) While you should know where you stand, you should also openly listen to opposing arguments and seek information that will help you further evaluate your own position . . . it's okay to change your mind and admit doing so.

2) When someone resorts to personal attacks, you know you've won the argument and deep down they do too - that's why they resort to ad hominem. At that moment, it's time to not say anything else and walk away.

3) To quote Proverbs, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him." If someone is rejecting reason and understanding, then you will never persuade them to your point of view. To engage a person like this in an argument only shows your own foolishness.

As one who followed billiards (men and women) for some years and watched Annika Sorenstam in person be the first women to play in a professional men's PGA event (the Colonial here in Fort Worth years ago), I would tend to agree with this statement. Watching both the power of the men was obvious versus the ladies, but the consistency of stroke and control of the pool cue and golf club by the ladies versus the men was also obvious to my eyes. While there is a clear advantage to males on the golf course when hitting from the back tees, out of the deep rough, etc., I'm not so sure about billiards. Maybe the extra power helps on the break or in very rare occasions putting exaggerated english on the ball, but outside of that I'm not sure how the top ranked women in the game would compare to the men if they competed on the same tour. It did seem like for years the women's tour was more heavily marketed and televised, but I think that people came to like both the competition and the unique personalities that the women's tour had to offer.

If someone refuses to actually read the content to formulate an informed opinion and just prefers to make assumptions and demand that others not be able to have open communication on topics, then my suggestion would be to ignore the thread and realize that not everything in this world is about one's own feelings. After all, putting one's head in the sand and ignoring the tough topics is how all of the world's problems can be solved, right?

Signed, Tough Love

BTW, if multiple women actually respond in this thread having read the posts and come to the conclusion that the discussion is not informative and worth having, then I would be willing to listen and change my mind. Personally, I never put any stock into an individual or group professing something as bad/wrong/evil/offensive, when the individuals who are supposedly being oppressed either don't comment on the topic or state themselves they take no offense (so many examples of this in today's society). The truly offensive part of such a position is you actually devalue the position and voice of those who are the assumed/supposed targets (i.e. when did they bestow the right upon you to advocate on their behalf?)

I've probably said enough on this topic unless someone addresses one of my points specifically, so I'll stop dominating the conversation and continue to follow.

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PS: I'll assume that the thumbs up I'm getting on this post are not because of my opinion, but because I said I'll shut-up.

Q: Why are men better than women at pinball?
A: Because women are better at everything else, and they wanted us to have a false sense of superiority in at least one area of life.