(Topic ID: 211611)

Toledo resets in middle of game randomly

By pinballman3

6 years ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by marschner
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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0Toledo-put-together-questions-A-orpalis.pdf (PDF preview)

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#6 6 years ago

Hi pinballman3
The first picture - the PDF I made from the ipdb-schematics --- unfortunately some parts are missing - may want to make You a copy of "my work" - copy down onto Your computer. You then may check with Your paper-schematics --- may take some pictures with Your mobile phone - upload Your pictures - I can add / complement the missing areas ...

Troubleshooting the seldom-fault: I would like to mount some Test-Lights --- looooong wires on the Test-Lights - the loooong ires (and so the Test-Light) come out the open coin-door - Test-Light(s) lay on the apron and You play many games. WHEN the fault happens: DID one of the Test-Lights light-up ?
SteveFury shows his Test-Light here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 --- want to make Yourself such an Test-Light (or two or three Test-Lights - a really good tool) --- two car-bulbs of 12Volts put one behind the other - summing up to a Test-Light of 24Volts.

You have mentioned: "Pressing the Replay-Button when a ball is in play" does NOT start a new game --- see the second picture - in the JPG I marked "grey": You press the Credit-Button --- well, "green IS OPEN" as the Game-Over-Relay is not pulling when You play. "Blue" should be closed in a ONE-Player-Game. "Red" closes when the pin steps from "ball-1 is lost" to "Ball-2 in play".

On the bottom You see my Test-Lights --- I wonder "Does the Reset-Relay ONLY (faulty) pull-in" or "Does the Coin-Relay (faulty) pulls-in and then makes the Reset-Relay to pull-in". We may have to mount another Test-Light on the Coil of "Game-Over-Relay" or some other Relay --- trying to find "what relay makes the fault happen". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: I can send "my work, schematics" per EMail - some 3 MB data (PDF) or 5 MB data (JPG) - but actually hope for help to complement the missing areas.

0Toledo-put-together-questions-A-orpalis.pdf0Toledo-put-together-questions-A-orpalis.pdf

0Toledo-Work-01 (resized).jpg0Toledo-Work-01 (resized).jpg

1 month later
#9 5 years ago

Hi pbm3
a fault can happen because AAA: A Relay is faulty pulling-in - but also can happen because BBB: One or more Switch(es) on this relay is/are adjusted tight - a bit of shaking makes the Switch(es) to faulty close. Troubleshooting on AAA then is: WHY does the relay faulty pull-in ? - troubleshooting on BBB then is: ARE all switches gapped properly ?

When the fault is of type "not always - sometimes - rare": I like to mount an Test-Light (like You did, like shown in post-6, 2nd JPG, bottom-right, Reset-Relay).

See the JPG - this happens in a fully functioning pin: We toogle-on the pin, the Game-Over-Relay is either already in state "Game-Over" or it is made to move in state Game-Over (by toggling-on the pin) --- Switch "pink-B1" therefore is other than drawn in the JPG - Switch "pink-B1" is closed. A leftover from the previous game: Score-Drums are not at "Zero" - so one, some, all switches "blue-A2" is/are closed (((blue-A3, blue-A4: Later))). We start a new game - among other stuff happening: The Coin-Relay is made pulling-in - so Switch "pink-B2" closes --- Initial-Current can flow "wire-yellow through switch-pink-B2 wire-orange-red through switch-pink-B1 reaching the coil (brown X).
The Reset-Relay pulls-in and establishes "Self-Hold-Current through blue-A1 and blue-A2 ((eventually the Bonus-Unit must also reset so blue-A3 may come into function)).

As starting / resetting proceeds: The Game-Over-Relay is made moved to "state in play" - so switch-pink-B1 opens - the Coin-Relay quits pulling - switch-pink-B2 opens. The Reset-Relay stays pulling through the Self-Hold-Circuitry until ALL Switches on the Score-Drums (blue-A2) open when a Drum is stepped to position-zero. The bonus may be stepped down - switch-blue-A3 opens / is open. The turning motor turns to the end of its turn - blue-A4 opens --- NOW the Reset-Relay quits pulling as there is no more Self-Hold-Current flowing.

Troubleshooting: Either blue-A1 is faulty-gapped - and/or "pink-B1 AND pink-B2" are faulty-gapped - a bit of shaking the pin when playing - the Reset-Relay is made "faulty-pulling-in".

Lets start with "Switch-blue-A1" - the Self-Hold-Switch on the Reset-Relay - easy to be found: From one side of the Coil on Reset-Relay runs a short wire to Switch-mounted-on-the-relay - THIS switch --- truely open when the relay is not pulling ? - a drop of solder there ? - a doghair-crap of wire there ? a lug bent making sometimes faulty contact ? Can You guarantee: "Switch is good" ? Greetings Rolf

0Toledo-Work-03 (resized).jpg0Toledo-Work-03 (resized).jpg

#13 5 years ago

Hi pbm3
when playing 50 games is "punishment" - do play 20 games --- while playing think of "instead of playing: The same time long I (means You) have the playfield lifted - lean over and into the cabinet and do all kind of tests" ---
when it is an "sometimes, rare" fault: I like to mount Test-Light(s) - then I play and have an eye on the Test-Light(s).
Lets say a fault can be caused exactly by five causes - AA, BB, CC, DD, EE --- we check the CC - maybe we are lucky and the fault is found. If not we then have only four (more) places to check - then three - then two - then one.

When there is a fault and a switch to close on an relay is in the wiring --- ALWAYS two possibilities: FF - the relay is faulty made pulling (the switch then is entitled to close) --- GG - the relays does not pull-in - but the switch on the relay is adjusted tight - almost closed - a bit of shaking the pin and the (almost closed) switch closes due to vibration.
Therefore Your second sentence in post-10 is not true --- You did only consider possibility FF.

In the end of post-9 I suggested "Lets start with Switch-blue-A1" --- did You check this switch - wide open when the Reset-Relay is not pulling ? Bent solder-lug ? a doghair crap of wire ? Greetings Rolf

#15 5 years ago

Hi pbm3
I cannot see in the schematics when in the pin is "shorts made by faulty-touching switchblades". I look at the JPG in post-9 and say "one connection is "A2 and/or A3 and/or A4 - then through A1" --- the other connection is "B2 then B1" --- so have a good look at the Switch (in the JPG: B2) on Coin-Relay - wide ope when the relay is not pulling ? stud/solder-lug bent making almost contact ? drop of solder ? doghair crap of wire ?

When You have started a ONE-Player-Game - when You then want to start for the second-player --- You do start for the second player - question: Do You always can start for the second player ?

Some theory: The schematics is drawn: A new game has been started - reset has been done - ball is kicked over to the shooter alley so the (single) player may launch the ball - THEN the pin is toggled-off. So the "Switch B1 on Game-Over-Relay" must be "as shown in the JPG" - must be open - truely open after You have started a new game means a ONE-Player-Game (((Game-Over-Relay is an Interlock-Type relay --- Interlock-Type relays do not move / do not "let go" when we toggle-off the pin))).

Switch-B1 is allowed to be closed only when the Coin-Relay is pulling. "Coin-Relay is not a good name - START-Relay would be a better name. Greetings Rolf

#18 5 years ago

Hi pbm3
another post to come on troubleshooting "randomly resets" --- this post is mostly theory (and some troubleshooting) "mystery on Game-Over-Relay". It is a good example of "reading schematics - thinking in time-progression along time axis and so coils pulling / armatures and switches move".
The JPG is made from the schematics - interesting stuff is there - other stuff is left out. We always have in mind - Bally, Gottlieb and Williams schematics are drawn: A new game has been started, reset of steppers and Score-Drums has been made, ball is kicked over to the shooter-alley - ready for a ONE-Player-Game - ready for the player to launch the ball - THEN THE PIN is toggled-off / main power cord unplugged (this toggling-off is irritating - but this is the drawing of all these schematics).

The following is for "later Williams like my Space Mission, Big Deal, Your Toledo" --- see the JPG - on the POWER-Side-connection I drew a thick black line --- the Lock-Relay always has power-side-connection. On the return-side / common I drew "yellow line" - the Lock-Relay always has return-side-connection. When we toggle-on the main power-switch: 110VAC - magnetism - 24VAC and the Lock-Relay pulls --- it pulls-in, stays pulling continuously for a long time (until we toggle-off).

Lets say You toggle-off Your Toledo in ball-2. You had started the game so when the pin was resetting: The pin had actuated the Game-Over-Latch Coil (means relay is latched means relay is 'in play' means "switch in the JPG 'Switch on Game-Over-Relay Power-side connection' is closed - is as shown in the schematics / JPG" --- as this switch is closed: The Game-Over-TRIP-Coil has power-side-connection.
See in the JPG, lower left corner the "Switch on Lock-Relay" - drawn closed (remember the schematics is drawn ... then pin is toggled-off / main power cord unplugged - Lock-Relay is not pulling, switch is closed).

Now comes reading schematics - thinking-in "factor time - action on relays and steppers": You toggle-on the pin - immediately the Lock-Relay starts pulling-in - one-tenth-of-a-second armature / nylon-ladder / switchblade: moving --- another one-tenth-of-a-second armature / nylon-ladder / switchblade: moving --- another one-tenth-of-a-second armature / nylon-ladder / switchblade: moving --- another one-tenth-of-a-second armature / nylon-ladder / switchblade: moving --- another one-tenth-of-a-second armature / nylon-ladder / switchblade: moving and after five-tenth-of-a-second the stuff on Lock-Relay has moved. The switch on the Lock-Relay is adjusted to open late - opens after four-tenth-of-a-second.
Well, "TRIP-Coil on Game-Over-Relay" - hurry, hurry --- for four-tenth-of-a-second the "Switch on Lock-Relay" is closed --- TRIP-Coil: hurry, hurry - pull-in, pull-in, actuate.
AND IT WORKS (in a functioning Williams pin) - The "Switch on pulling-in Lock-Relay" is closed for four-tenth-of-a-second - time enough for the TRIP-Coil on Game-Over-Relay to pull-in / actuate.

Troubleshooting "mystery on Game-Over-Relay" - question: You are playing - You have played ball-1 - THEN You press the Replay-Button - DOES the pin start a new game - RESETTING ?
IF (if, if) "Yes": We know (JPG, lower left corner) "Connection through pulling Coin-Relay / closed switch --- closed switch on Ball-Count-Unit - the Game-Over-Relay DOES / DID TRIP. Greetings Rolf

0Toledo-Work-04 (resized).jpg0Toledo-Work-04 (resized).jpg

#20 5 years ago

Hi pbm3
great - You could fix the "Lock-Relay" problem - was it "residual magnetism" ?
The problem "randomly resets" --- there is another topic - other fault - BUT: The work-around I suggested there is the same as I suggest (by now) here - see https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/resetting-williams-fan-tas-tic#post-4390634 - on the bottom of the JPG --- some kind of "sneaked-in toggle-switch". You toggle-on for connection - You start a new game - after startup / resetting: You toggle-off - then You play the game - when You have reached "Game-Over" You toggle-on - start a new game - then toggle-off etc. You play many games - do You still have the problem of "randomly resets" ?

I happen to run out of ideas - the JPG in post-9 and the marked switches --- checking the switches. You can say "have checked and checked and all looks good" --- then next is (as I do not see an other way): Unsoldering wires from the solder-lugs of these switches - put in NEW wires selectively - one after one. Greetings Rolf

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