Veendam
Both relais for 1-2 and 3-4 player stays energized while drum unit are at zero on my williams fan-tas-tic
(Topic ID: 216527)
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Fan-Tas-Tic
Williams, 1972
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Springfield, MA
Quoted from HowardR:Is the Coin relay staying energized?
No coin relay not energized. Noted that the ten point switches on playfield do not work. Manual operated the reset relais 1-2 players and as soon as it reached zero on the drum it goes immediatly to ten or more and stays energized
Checked the ten point switches on playfield , but they do not make kontakt
Aarau
Hi Lambecka
(following test written not knowing Your post-6)
in post-1 and post-3 You write "Rest-Relay and 1-2-Reset-Relay and 3-4-Reset-Relay stay energized" --- does the Score-Motor constantly run ? - or does it run a short time - then stops ?
Do the 1-2-Reset-Relay and the 3-4-Reset-Relay ever "rhythmically actuate (and let go and actuate and let go ...)" ?
Your pin is in Game-Over - Switch-blue-2 is closed --- You start a game so the Coin-Relay pulls-in - Switch-blue-1 closes. The blue-3 pulls-in, closes its switch (blue-4) - is kept pulling due to blue-5-switches closed --- when all blue-5 switches open (as the Score-Drums have been stepped to Zero) --- motor runs to the end of a turn - blue-6 also opens.
Brown-X makes the motor to run, brown-Y makes the motor to run. Greetings Rolf
Do the pop bumpers score 10 when not lit? And do any of the 50 pt. things score, such as the center target sw. or the buttons? What happens when the motor runs-any score being put up? If so, what?
Hi Lambecka
again - the JPG in post-7 - the blue-1,2,3,4,5 is happening --- as the Score-Drums are not stepped foreward to their Zero-Position:; Switch(es) blue-5 never open - so through "blue-4" the Reset-Relay is made pulling forever - so through brown-Y the motor is made to run forever.
What happens when You do before starting a new game: You do manually reset all Score-Drums to Zero - then You start a game - what happens.
It has been a busy day - I go to sleep - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf
Hi Lambecka +
this here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-efficiently-ask-for-pinball-repair-help-em is good --- if the original poster does not write it in his post-1 - the question must be asked: "Did the pin ever run in Your possession - or did You buy it with the fault ?
Your post-6 is irritating - we may have several faults. I would like to work on "Start-up procedure".
The motor in Your pin is running forever - so You toggle-off the pin. The motor therefore stops in an non-defined position. You toggle-on the pin - does the motor runs a bit - then stops in "Home-Position (on the cam nearest to the real motor the switchstack plunges down). You then press the left flipper button and the lights (Playfield and Backbox) lite up - do You see the text "Game Over" lighted in the Backglass ? The Score-Drums are all on Zero --- You press the Credit-Button - the Replay-Relay pulls-in and the motor starts running - the Coin-Relay pulls-in - the Reset-Relay pulls-in - the Game-Over-Relay moves. The motor has been started - has been running - (of course all cams turn) - the cam nearest to the real motor is called Index-Cam - it does a turn of 180 degrees --- and in this turning at about 150 / 160 / 170 degrees: The Replay-Relay and the Coin-Relay quit pulling - do they ? Greetings Rolf
Rolf,
Toggle on the pin and the motor runs a bit in home position
Press the left flipper and lights playfield and backbox light up
See the light game over in the backbox and score drums on zero
Press credit button replat rel pulls in and motor strats running and coin rel pulls in reset rel pulls in and game over rel moves.
Coin rel and replay rel quitd pulling
Reset relais keeps pulling.
Maybe not clear enough, but reason for you called irritating post is that i think the fault must be in this area, because if i manual unlock the reset rel , motor stops , but ball index pulls in and if i try to play , all the function working exept
Lower bumber and top left and right switched located behind the rubbers. Also point are going to the first drum
Hi Lambecka
Williams pins have the switches to control playfield and other functions - the switches in the returning connection: Coil - wire - switch - wire etc. ending on Transformer-lug-common-Yellow-is return-side. AND in the power-side-connection - Transformer - wire - fuse - wire to the coils: A "Switch on Game-Over-Relay to cut the Power-Side-Connection to plenty many relays" --- "Switch on Reset-Relay to cut many relays" - "Switch on Tilt-Relay to cut a bunch of relays". A playfield-feature fault can not show up in state "pin is in Game-Over" as the Switch on Game-Over-Relay is open (in state Game-Over). We then start a new game - this makes the Game-Over-Relay to actuate - its switch closes - but still the playfield fault cannot show up because during reset the Reset-Relay is pulling - its switch (on the power-side-connection) is open when the Reset-Relay is pulling.
You "fumble the Reset-Relay to quit pulling" - FAULTY the Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in - more faults show up.
Your text in post-15 pleases me - until "Reset-Relay keeps pulling".
Look here http://www.ipdb.org/files/820/Williams_1972_Fan_Tas_Tic_Operator_Manual.pdf on page-23 (ori-22) - Reset-Relay-Switch-C (this switch is the 'cut power-side-connection' switch) - have a good look at --- truely OPEN when the Relay is pulling (have the pin toggled-off, do manually activate the Reset-Relay - Switch MUST be wide OPEN) - check for a drop of solder - a doghair crap of wire - a stud bent making fauly always contact. Sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the contact-points to make the switch permanent open.
Same page / Relay in the manual - Switch-A on Reset-Relay --- also have a good look at --- also sneak-in a stripe of paper.
You now have a stripe of paper in Switch-C and also in Switch-A on the Reset-Relay. Toggle-on and start a game. (The pin will not let You play (stripes of paper)) --- I am interested in "when the coin-relay and the replay-relay quit pulling - DOES the Reset-Relay also quit pulling ? Greetings Rolf
Hi Lambecka
strange - in Your test (You write about in post-17): The Replay-Relay does not pull-in --- hmm, did You wanted to write "Reset-Relay does not pull-in" ? (((I will be out for about two hours for some festivities - leaving home in about 2.25 hours from now))). Greetings Rolf
Hi Lambecka
thanks - good I did ask. From Your posts I read "Lambecka can prey open the pulling Reset-Relay when the motor comes to 'endlessly running' " - THEN the Ball-Index-Relay faulty pulls-in.
For the moment I (want to) accept the primary fault - 1-2- and 3-4-Reset-Relays do not rhythmically actuate on start up. For the moment I am interested in the faulty pulling-in Ball-Index-Relay ---
ONLY have the stripe of paper sneaked-in in Switch-C on Reset-Relay (- take-out the sneaked-in one out of Switch-A on Reset-Relay) - start a game - pin comes to motor endlessly runs - NOW prey-open the Reset-Relay - question: Does (faulty) the Ball-Index-Relay pull-in ?
(((I hope for: Does not pull-in --- we then have more leisure at chasing the main / first problem))) Greetings Rolf
Hi Lambecka
not a fix but makes troubleshooting more comfortable --- see the JPG - unsolder the single wire-blue-white away from the coil - then use looooong jumper-wires - taking them through the open coin-door out into the open --- then a plug or toggle-switch or clipping together gator-clips on the jumper-wires - and un-plugging / toggling-off / taken apart the gator clips (have insulated gator-clips or wear rubber gloves - do not touch bare metal / wires).
With this setup YOU have control --- YOU say: "Now is the time that the resetting shall end / the Reset-Relay shall quit pulling.
And You may work on the problem 1-2- / 3-4-Reset-Relay not rhythmically actuating. I showed in post-9 the (encircled rosa/pink) place to look-at --- when You sneak-in stripes of paper into Motor-Imp-E and Motor-Imp-A: The 1-2- and the 3-4-Reset-Relay (sitting in the Backbox) shall never pull-in (because of the stripes of paper keeping the switches open).
Do sneak-in into motor-imp-A and -E - toggle-on, start a game - do they pull-in or do they not pull-in ? Greetings Rolf
Hi Albert
no need to hurry - it is a hobby - and I can see You have some good pins when You "just want to play".
We know "at least three faults in Your Fan-Tas-Tic" --- one shows up after resetting - the pulling-in of the Ball-Index-Relay is the proof --- we did put aside this fault for a while. The second fault is "Reset-Relay does not quit pulling when all Score-Drums are resetted and because the Reset-Relay stays pulling forever: The motor runs and runs". The third fault is: 1-2- and 3-4-Reset-Relays do not rhythmically actuate when the Rese-Relay is pulling and the motor is running.
To chase the second fault can be time-consuming so I said: Please concentrate on the third fault --- 99% chance that the "my encircled rosa/pink" switches cam-IMP-A and -E are maladjusted --- closed when they should be open (and as on 99.99% of adjusting switch-blades: the free-ending / not hooked-in - called stationary blade must be bent).
The second fault "Reset-Relay does not quit pulling" - is time consuming --- look here http://www.ipdb.org/files/415/Williams_1968_Cabaret_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf on page-15 (ori-13) - Your pin has 16 Score-Drums - all must be checked --- see on the bottom of the page in the manual "Switch adjustment - at "0" or Index Position all switches are open as shown". 16 times (as You have 16 Score-Drums) You must inspect these switches --- the gapping of the blades - drop of solder - doghair crap of wire - bent stud --- making faulty contact - time consuming. Greetings Rolf
You guys seem to be experts on Fan-tas-tic, so I have a question. All of a sudden my game started doing this: When you get the ball in the spin hole up top if you land on advance bonus it never stops. Just keeps adding and advancing bonus perpetually!?! Any idea how I would remedy this?
Quoted from gentrsa:You guys seem to be experts on Fan-tas-tic, so I have a question. All of a sudden my game started doing this:
Please start a new thread, so nothing gets confused.
Rolf,
Did the following
Removed all 16 drums and checked for zero position, cleaned and checked on old solder etc etc.
Did the the test with paper between motor switches A and C. Started up and the relais 1,2 in the back box was pulling. The rel 3,4 was not pulling.
Observation from myself was , that if removing all the paper and start up,machine, motor keeps running. If i manual operate the relais1,2 in the back box the drum goes to zero, motor stops and immendiatly 10 points are added , rel 1.2 keeps pulling, but play field ready to play exept as i noted in the beginning switch for 10 points scoring does not work and lowe bumber does not work,
Iam in the dark now
Hi Albert
in post-24 I wrote "at least three faults in Your pin". Chasing the problem "Reset-Relay does not quit pulling so the motor endlessly runs" can be time-consuming and we can make an (+/- good) work-around (unsoldering wire away from Coil on Reset-Relay - sneaking-in switch / plug / gator-clips to un-clip). The "faulty steady-pulling 1-2- / 3-4-Reset-Relay (s)" is annoying - hinders starting a new game. The third problem "stuck 10 points" comes later in the progression - start - reset - play --- thats why I wanted to stick to "1-2- / 3-4- problem".
To "stuck 10 points": Did You mount new rubbers on the playfield ? (At least once I read here in pinside: Have mounted new rubbers - the new rubbers are thicker than the old ones - new rubbers did faulty permanently close a stand-up-10-point-switch on the playfield).
Question: Does the 10-Point-Relay stick ? Does the 50-Points-Relay stick ?
In the ipdb-manual on page-28 (ori-27) We are informed: "10-Point-Relay actuates through Jet Bumpers and through Stand-up-Switches (behind rubbers). Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=820&picno=53461&zoom=1 see holes drilled for 10-Point-Stand-up-Switches. The schematics does not tell how many Stand-up-Switches --- but they all have wire-yellow and wire-green-black on the switch-blades-solder-lugs.
IF (if, if) on the "problem 1-2- / 3-4-Reset-Relays"the inspecting of motor-switches does not show the cause of the fault: We then have to consider somewhere a short (of course - I cannot see in the schematics) - we then must talk about unsoldering wires - using a Test-Light - selectively (one by one) "new wire put-in - controlled rewiring". Greetings Rolf
Rolf,
There are three 10 points switches behind the rubbers and checked them all.
The relais 1.2 sticks pulled but the 50 points relais works normal but does not give point to the drum.
Agree with younthat first need to solve the resetting of the drums by relays 1:2 and 3.4
Iam a little bit confused , becaus the relais do not rythmical goes on when motor runs, so no power from motor switches A and B. By manual resetting 1,2 the drum goes to zero, but as soon as it reaches zero motor stops and relay start Bzzzzz.
Is there a possibilty to jumper direct from score motor to the relais in back box ? Just to,check the connection??
Hi Albert
a stuck 10-Points-Relay usually is made to stuck because a playfield-switch is faulty closed. You have inspected the stand-up switches on the playfield. See here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=820&picno=7249 all the the way down - single bumper between the flipper-bats is worth "10 points when bumper is not lit" --- way up the left and the right of the three top bumpers are worth "10 points when bumper is not lit" --- nearby (top bumpers) there are targets to make these bumpers lit --- then they are worth 100 points. So let the fault (10-Points-Relay) happen - YOU hit one of the "make the bumper lighted" switches --- question: Does the fault on 10-Point-Relay dissapears - but You then have the fault "100-Point-Relay is sticking" ?
I am too lazy to re-read all posts --- so the question - when the 10-Point-RELAY sticks: Does the 10-Point-Score-DRUM also stick ? Does the Score-Drum open the End-of-Stroke-Switch ?
Please use more words to explain what You wanted to tell in post-29 --- especially the "By manual resetting 1,2 the drum goes to zero" - what do You do ? how many times do You do ?
A general rule: A Coil on a relay we can let faulty, constantly pull for 1 to 2 minutes - THEN we must toggle-off the pin and let the coil on the relay cool-off --- If we do not let it cool off: The coil may overheat - ruining the coil - maybe producing a short - we then have to buy a new coil. Greetings Rolf
Rolf,
The bumpers when lit gives the 100 points easily and nothing sticks
But ten points fault remain same.
Only the 10 points rel sticks and the match unit coil sticks
By manual operate the 1,2 reset relais i try to explain that i start up the machine, score motor keeps running and in the backbox i toggle with my finger the reset relais rhytmical, same as what the machine needs to do. By doing that the drums goes to zero and motor stops running. Immediatly then the ten point rel sticks.
Off course i switch off the pin to,avoid overheating of the coils.
But as said main problem is that machine does not automatical reset to zero, that need to,be resolved . All the others all small problems that can be solved.
Thats reason i asked if there i a way to,jumper direct from score motor switch to the reset relais in the back box, to,check if connection wrong or ok.
Best regards
Albert
Hi Albert
see the JPG in post-22 - i have encircled rosa pink "(5 times closing) IMP-E and "(5 times closing) IMP-A" --- wire B-O-I runs away from the switch and wire-B-BLU runs away from the switch. I would like You to unsolder*** these wires - then hook-in an Test-Light to learn about "does the Test-Light rhythmically light up five times per turn of the motor - turn of 180 degrees ?". So we then kow if the fault is in these Score-Motor-Switches or maybe some short somewhere else.
unsolder***: Can You get at the places - can You unsolder - and, think into the future - will You be able to solder-on - back-on again, later ?
On my bought pins I had (at the time) some problems --- unsolder - well Yes, but later solder-on again THERE - at this very hard to get-at place ? hmm, I said: No - I do a trick - I am rude to the pin --- I then took an old scissors and CUT the wire (instead of solder-ing-off). I cut about 2 to 3 inches away from the solder-lug. I then used a cigarette-lighter to burn away the fabric insulation - then cramped-on male / female plug*** --- all this I could do with one hand - leaning over / into the pin.
plug***: Do-It-Yourself Stores - automotive department, car-electrics: They sell plugs we can crimp-on / clamp-on / mount using a plier - squeeze the housing of the plug - and it is mounted - can be done with one hand.
Please tell me if You want to look again at these Score-Motor-IMP-E and -IMP-A switches - or if You do the unsoldering or if You do the "beeing rude".
You and I - we live in the same time zone - this is my last post for today - I go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf
Rolf,
I do not unsolder/solder in area easily can damage other wires. Will do it the rude way by cutting the wires.
You right is too late now and we are out this weekend , so will report back to you on monday.
you know i am appreciate your help and patience you have
Best regards
Albert
Rolf,
Found the problem with resetting the four drums. For 3,4 it was the nylon pushup of the switch score motor broken of and for 1,2 the wire connecting both relais had broken solder.
Machine now starts up resets all drums and motor stops running.
After start up the ten point relais pulls in and the ball index pulls in een keeps pulling. If unlatching the ten points relais, the machine starts up and can start playing, but as soon as scoring the bal index pulls in and keeps pulling.
albert
Quoted from Lambecka:After start up the ten point relais pulls in
This is usually caused by a stuck playfield switch. Temporarily unplug the playfield to localize the cause to there.
Quoted from Lambecka:as soon as scoring the bal index pulls in and keeps pulling.
I'm not familiar with your particular game but looking at the schematic this appears normal. Just in case, be cautious for a while to make sure the Ball Index relay doesn't burn up.
Quoted from HowardR:This is usually caused by a stuck playfield switch. Temporarily unplug the playfield to localize the cause to there.
I'm not familiar with your particular game but looking at the schematic this appears normal. Just in case, be cautious for a while to make sure the Ball Index relay doesn't burn up.
Howard, yes i remember other williams do the same, in the meantime found the faulty playfield switch causing the pulling 10 points relais.
Problem remains that hitting the left and right bumbers always given 100 points and they dont lit. If scoring the on bumbers switch the bumbers dont go on.
Hi Albert +
on most Gottlieb-EM-Pins there is a nice feature "Player-ONE launches FIRST ball - accidentally the ball rolls down the playfield NOT MAKING point(s) --- the ball is given again". This feature does not work on "player-2, -3, -4 first ball" - it also does not work on balls 2,3,4,5.
Usually Bally- and Williams-Pins are more generous --- the feature works on any player - on any ball.
Gottlieb has for its feature the "whatever-letter(s)-First-Ball-Relay" --- and Bally and Williams have the "Ball-Index-Relay" --- (Bally / Williams) whenever a new ball is given: Ball-Index-Relay is made non-pulling --- making point(s) makes the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in - stay pulling for the rest of the life of this ball. Greetings Rolf
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:Hi Albert +
on most Gottlieb-EM-Pins there is a nice feature "Player-ONE launches FIRST ball - accidentally the ball rolls down the playfield NOT MAKING point(s) --- the ball is given again". This feature does not work on "player-2, -3, -4 first ball" - it also does not work on balls 2,3,4,5.
Usually Bally- and Williams-Pins are more generous --- the feature works on any player - on any ball.
Gottlieb has for its feature the "whatever-letter(s)-First-Ball-Relay" --- and Bally and Williams have the "Ball-Index-Relay" --- (Bally / Williams) whenever a new ball is given: Ball-Index-Relay is made non-pulling --- making point(s) makes the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in - stay pulling for the rest of the life of this ball. Greetings Rolf
Rolf, thanks for expalnation
And thanks you helped me out in solving the resetting problem , it was not easy, but with the help of a test lamp as you suggested and some difficult solder work finally succes.
Still the problem that i cannot switch with the left and right bumber form 10 to 100 points. Bumbers given 100 points but don,t lit
Hi Albert
in Switzerland most EM-pins (imported) were / are 4-player pins. I learned here in pinside that the One-Player-pins (sometimes) have a funnyier rule-set. 4-player-pins actually are (four players) One-BALL games - and the next ball starts with all the playfield-features resetted.
We look at the JPG in post-39 - "encircled red switch on Outhole-Relay" opens when a ball is lost and enters the Outhole --- the Outhole-Relay is made to pull-in to do the stuff needed to give an new ball.
The "encircled-red Switch on Outhole-Relay" opens and cuts a lot of "Self-Hold-Circuits of many feature-relays pulling" --- one of them is "pulling On-Bumper-Relay" --- so on the next new ball the feature "lighting up the bumpers" must be made again: The ball must roll onto and close one of the Top Target Switches - Initial-Current flows to the "Coil on the On-Bumper-Relay" - it pulls - establishes its Self-Hold-Current by closing its "encircled red switch" - the relay stays pulling for the rest of the life of the ball - then ball is lost - enters the Outhole - Outhole-Relay pulls-in - opens its switch and CUTS Self-Hold-Circuitry - On-Bumper-Relay (and more relays) let go and so open their Self-Hold-Switch - relay(s) stay)s) nonpulling until a new ball makes Initial-Current to flow. Greetings Rolf
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