I have a Bally Delta Queen where upon starting a game, all the scoring drum wheels successfully reset to '0', but the score motor keeps running with the 'score reset' relay continually firing on / off.

From the Bally Delta Queen manual start up sequence:

2C. The coin relay when energized will operate the score motor.

2D. The coin relay will energize the reset relay which will stay energized thru it's own switch until all drum unit zero switches are open and #8 score motor cam switch is open. The score reset relay is energized. The score reset relay provides the pulses to
advance the drum units until the individual drum unit reads zero.

What is "#8 score motor cam switch is open"? Does this mean the switches associated with cam 8? If so, there's a whole switch stack there starting with 'A' (closest to the cams) to 'F'. So out of those 6 switches, which is it?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Yes, both the 'Game Interlock Relay' and the 'Ball Count Stepper' seem to have activity. If I manually move the 'Ball Count' stepper to some non-reset value, then coin a game what happens is that the 'Game Interlock Relay' seems to go active and the 'Ball Count Stepper' goes back to what should be the games initial reset state.

One thing I just noticed is that while all this is going on, the credit unit isn't changing. I don't know enough about how to 'hot wire' these Bally EMs for free play so perhaps thats the reason - but I don't <think> its changed for free play. The credit unit seems mostly complete - the numbered credit reel is missing. Can I buy these somewhere or need to look used..?

I put a black mark on the credit toothed reel so I can tell if its advancing or decremented. It doesn't move.

This works fine: "1. You turn on the game and press the left flipper button. That lights it up and shows game over on the backglass."

This does not: "2. You press the replay button on the front. The motor starts and you see the score reels reset to zero, while at the same time the ball count steps up from 1 to 5 (or 3 if set to 3 ball). You should see these numbers change on the backglass."

The only way for (2) to work for me, since pressing the replay button on the coin door does nothing, is to actuate one of the coin door credit switches. When I open the coin door and face the inside of it, I actuate the coin mech switch on the right (which I guess is mech '1'). Once I do that, and only do that, do I get the behavior you explain in (2). Except, in my case the score reel motor keeps turning etc...

HowardR

- Thanks for the input. I'm checking it out...

Okay, this jumpering around things is helping... I just wish my alligator clips (and fingers) weren't so fat.

If I basically jumper around the whole circuit highlighted in post #7 I can get the reset relay to fire via the coin door credit button.

Specifically, I jumper:

1. W wire on 1G score motor switch <-----------> BLU-O credit button switch
2. W-O wire credit button switch <---------------> BR-Y Credit relay

If I remove either (1) or (2), pressing the coin door credit button does nothing - it will not fire the credit relay.

So I think I found a problem at least with (1). In particular, the score motor make/break switch 1G connecting to the W and B-W wires. With the game at rest, according to the schematic this part of the switch should be closed. It is not, it is open. This means the other half of this make/break switch is closed, when it should be open (W to R-Y).

I *think* with the game at rest, the score motor cam 1 switch stack should settle into one of two grooves in cam 1 - is that true? In my case it doesn't settle at one of the two groves in that cam. This forces the W and B-W wired part of the make/break switch to be open, not closed thus not completing the circuit path unless I jumper around it.

What would cause the score motor to not stop at the grooved part of cam 1 (assuming that this is wrong operation)? I feel like I should pull the bottom board and put it on the workbench and clean and adjust all of those score motor switches. I did pull the board once and cleaned all of the relay switches, but stupidly didn't do the score motor switches. I can just pull the board again and this time do all of switches, and double check the relay switches.

Thoughts?

This could explain the incorrect home position of my score motor. I definitely have this problem:

and I think the solution might be posted here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-bon-voyage-score-motor-slow-on-cold-start

Okay, I fixed the 'brake' as mentioned in my last post. That think was definitely gummed up. Nice smooth action now...

... which leads to a different behavior. Now when I turn the game on, the score motor keeps turning and doesn't stop. Fixing the above issue was for sure a step in the right direction.

dgAmpGuy

Thanks for the follow up... I was just in the process of posting exactly the picture of the schematic that you just posted. I did go through and check all the switches you highlight and was about to ask if there's some other way the score motor gets run... so I seem to be on the same page as you. I like the piece of paper/index card trick. Let me revisit again but with that method.

How do you have your coin chute settings via these jones plugs?

I don't have a 3rd coin chute mech or 3rd coin chute relay... but there seems to be something plugged into the 3rd coin chute jones plug (which admittedly I don't under the settings even after reading the operator's manual). Would this be any cause of the problem?

deltaqueenCoinShuteSettings (resized).jpg

deltaQueenCoinshuteJonesPlugs (resized).jpg

deltaQueenNo3rdCoinshuteRelay (resized).jpg

deltaqueenCoinDoor (resized).jpg

So a little more success... using the index card technique, I was able to isolate why the score motor keeps turns when the game is powered on. The 'center hole' relay was energizing causing the circled in green switch to close which causes the score motor to rotate:

deltaqueenscoremotorswitchesProblemFound.pdf

So why does the 'center hole' relay energize?

centerHoldRelay12.pdf

The 'center hole re.' switch and the 'center hole' switches are both open. I checked the leaf switch gap, inserted index cards, and also checked the tabs to the switches (where the wires are soldered onto them) so make sure they aren't shorted. They are not. So with these two switches open, how is the 'center hole' relay being activated?

dgAmpGuy baldtwit

Yes, that relay is active independent of any index card placement...

baldtwit had a good suggestion: unplug the 18 pin playfield jones plug. When I did the problem went away. Then I plugged the 18 pin plug back in and.... the problem was still gone.

Now, I've cleaned both the male and female sides of the jones plugs until they shine line new - there's nothing more to clean. But I cannot deny what just happened. My question is, if there was still a dirty 18 pin plug, or perhaps something not seated well causing that 'center hole' relay to fire, wouldn't that 18 pin jones plug act more like and open circuit / switch rather than a short? I don't understand that one at all.

Trying to fire up the game again, it still wasn't right. Keeping with "less stuff to debug the better" idea, I went and completely unplugged all 3 playfield jones connectors and removed the entire playfield from the game. Now when I turn on the game, the score motor keeps turning and turning again, but I need to narrow down exactly what's happening. I'll report back.

Thank you again for everyone's input.

Thanks Skidave , I'll check it out when I go to put the playfield back into the game.

So with the playfield out:

1. Power game on. Press left flipper button and Lock Relay engages. Good so far

2. Activate the coin switch on the coin door. 2nd Coin Shute Relay activates

3. Press the credit button on the coin door. The Credit Relay activates... and stays engaged. I turn to power off to the game, and it stays latched. Its really stuck even trying to unlatch it with my finger (which with a lot of pressure it finally does). Is this possible to be related to an electrical problem at all, especially with the game power off? It seemed like a physical thing to me. I took the Credit Relay assembly apart and inspected it. After reassembly it now it seems to be working (unlatches as needed and no longer stuck on). So I *think* I'm past this issue.

4. As the game is in reset mode, all the score reels successfully dial down to '0'. When this occurs, all the score reel switches are clearly open. On the back sides of these switches where the wires attach, they are also clearly separated and not shorting

5. But at this point, the: 1) score motor continues to turn; 2) the Game Over Interlock Relay keeps firing in and out of game over mode; and the Score Reset Relay keeps firing constantly

Thoughts?

The problem seems to be relating to the Coin Relay staying locked on, therefore the Reset Relay also stays locked on

I had just finished writing and was about to post:

============================= =========================

Its set to 3 ball according to the jumper in the backbox.

As a side, what is this mechanism in the backbox? The label paper fell off it.

deltaqueenmystery (resized).jpg

When you say 'Game Relay', I see the 'Game Interlock Relay'... seems like a latch and trip mechanism. Is this what you are calling the 'Game Relay'?

I agree it seems like the reset sequence is not finishing.

The game is set to 3 ball. The ball count stepper is not doing anything at all.

=======================================================

Before posting the above message, I noticed the Ball Count Unit was set to position '5'. I changed to via manually working the stepper unit to postition '3'. I turned the game on, started a game, and everything is working. I can activate the 500 Points Relay, and get 500 points, etc... I turn the game off, and restart again... everything resets correctly and a new games starts again.

If I then change the balls per game setting to '5', start a game, everything seems to work as well. Game resets, etc... the Ball Count Unit goes to position '5', etc...

So this is great!

The only thing that is immediately puzzling me (besides what the heck is that mech in the picture?) is that I should be able to simulate a game regarding a ball drain and moving onto the next ball. I'm using the Ball Index Relay and Outhole Relay and - with 3 ball per game set - the Ball Count Unit never moves off '3'. Maybe I'm not simulating a ball drain correctly?

I put the playfield back into the game. It seems everything works - except the Ball Count Unit just as I tested without the playfield installed.. If I set 3 balls / game, the ball count stepper unit stays at 3. It never decrements.

However, if I set 5 balls / game, there's enough running correctly that the Ball Count Unit changes from position '3' to position '5'. So that works.

It seems like the only problem is when the ball drains, going onto the next ball never decrements the Ball Count Unit. The game just goes on forever...

gameover (resized).jpg

I just played my first game. Okay, maybe several games...

While jumpering around the circuit to investigate the Ball Count Unit, the circuit path just started working. Yes, I cleaned some switches along the way - but out of the few switches I cleaned I can't pin-point exactly which one started it to work. I hope its robust now, but if not I know where to look. I can't get the darned thing to fail now.

I want to thank everyone that participated in this thread. I really learned a lot along the way. All posts really helped me. Thanks again for all the time you spent responding.

Now its time to pull the top side apart and clean up the playfield...