(Topic ID: 233277)

WCS94 Reboots sometimes with both flippers

By apscarpelli

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 26 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Lermods
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

Have a World Cup Soccer 94 that resets periodically with both flippers pressed. Played a few games today and 3rd game reset.

Here is some test data. Any thoughts? Reconnected lots connectors and thinking multiple need to be redone.

TP1 13.88
TP2 4.92
TP3 12.08
TP6 72.4
TP7 21.3
TP8 16.2

#3 5 years ago

So the voltage at TP2 is your problem (BTW - just fixed my nagging double-flipper reset a few days ago)....4.92vdc is too low - it's indicative of a reset condition....check the condition of J101 (this is where the AC comes in to be transformed into the 5VDC for the watchdog circuit)...my connector was browned at the red leads (pins 1 & 2) also check J114 this is where the 5VDC goes over the watchdog circuit to the MPU board.....to be honest - if it's never been done - I have to say that re-connectorizing at least J101 as well as replacing the header pins @ J101 and J114 is crucial....from there...I'd replace the 5V regulator (the one in the large heatsink 'basket') with one from EZSBC - this is an improvement and allows you to set the 5V at 5.1v and never look back - it generates no heat and keeps the 5V very, very steady.....I just did exactly what i told you and I'm good to go!

#5 5 years ago

I got lucky and fixed my double flipper reset issue by tightening a mounting screw on the dmd driver board.

Start with the easy fixes first

#6 5 years ago

If you are not comfortable doing board work these are a great solution
www.kahr.us
The WPC power fix daughter board.
Installs in about 15 seconds.

#7 5 years ago

Thanks for the voltage regulator link, I’m to that point after checking all the other stuff on a game I’m currently working on... ground, connectors, interconnects, caps, diodes, rectifiers, etc.

Note that I found some past battey damage under one of the chips below the battery older. Replacing those components on the MPU got me a about .2 more volts as read at the rom chip but was still just at 4.85 and resetting (4.90 at TP).

#8 5 years ago

Perfect. Actually have one of the EZBSC's on it's way. Was thinking about getting a Rottendog board as well, since i could use it when need be for about 5 of my games when taking the original board out for repairs. Been thru the pinwiki for my Funhouse and will go thru it for WCS now.

#9 5 years ago

Actually I lied I got the Kahr power fix that buffalotx mentioned.

#10 5 years ago

I love the Kahr board...I have one... But it's not a fix.... It's a diagnostic tool (everyone debates this)..... It won't fix what is fixable...FYI....

#11 5 years ago

Pretty sure it needs new connectors and header pins on several areas of power board. Going to order parts and redo them. Will report back, but pretty sure this is the issue.

#12 5 years ago

Got an ezbsc today but accidentally broke one of the microsopic resistors on it and not sure what value to replace it with. Just went ahead and ordered a new one and will be more careful this time.

I’m guessing based on it being on basically a single sided PCB and operating as a switching supply there isn’t really any heat load associated with it. For those using it, have you kept the original heat sync or ditched it?

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from Sonic:

I love the Kahr board...I have one... But it's not a fix.... It's a diagnostic tool (everyone debates this)..... It won't fix what is fixable...FYI....

People will figure it out when their magic bullet no longer works.

#14 5 years ago

Replacement of the 5v regulator with an Ezsbc solved my problem. Note that I had previously gone through the rest of the regular troubleshooting steps which had brought my 5v up a couple of tenths before this final step. Just replacing the regulator without the other steps probably would not have completely eliminated the issue, it was probably a combination of issues.

It’s great to play without fear of a reset!

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

People will figure it out when their magic bullet no longer works.

going on 4 years, still no resets with Khar board

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from wdennie:

going on 4 years, still no resets with Khar board

Haven’t looked heavy into the Khar board but isn’t it just putting a switching regulator inline? If that is it, the kahr is basically the same concept as the ezsbc with the difference that the ezsbc replaces the faulty regulator with a switching regulator in its place. Note that just like the kahr the ezsbc is driving 5v from the 12v line (because that is what drives the original regualtor).

The only problem I see with using the kahr long term instead of as a diagnosis tool is you still have a malfunctioning regulator running on your driver board generating heat. Also the kahr is placed past the fuses so you loose some protection although I’m sure the kahr has some built in short protection just as the ezsbc does.

Also, isn’t the kahr just supplying the 5v for the mpu board? With a full repair you have good 5v through the entire system, not just the mpu.

I do think the kahr is an awesome tool, but ezspc is better for a long term fix. Plus the ezsbc is only 8 bucks if you don’t mind the extra 15 minutes to remove the board, desolder the old regulator and solder it in.

#17 5 years ago

I'm not saying it a permitted fix, and yes at some point it will need to be corrected.
What does save is "Me hacking up the board trying to repairing it"
getting old and my eyes aren't what they use to be.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from wdennie:

going on 4 years, still no resets with Khar board

TNG or Dr. Who ?

Enjoy it while it lasts. Sooner or later, it'll happen, and if you sell your game with that board installed and it starts resetting on them, now it's their problem.

I say just fix it right the first time and be done with it.

#19 5 years ago

That is somewhat improved, but still incomplete. It's nice to see the authors finally removed the "resistor hack" that used to be listed as the "last resort" and there is now recognition the regulator does lose ability to deliver rated voltage over time (it's part of the newer content that now mentions the PSU5). But there is still no mention of the overload flaw in the 5 volt WPC power system design. Without fully understanding a problem one is unlikely to solve it.

Quoted from Sonic:

I love the Kahr board...I have one... But it's not a fix.... It's a diagnostic tool (everyone debates this)..... It won't fix what is fixable

Thanks for the "love" - your daughterboard is one of nearly 6000 out there... the oldest ones are 5 years old and still delivering. But the "won't fix what is fixable" statement is incorrect - in fact it does fix what is otherwise not addressed in the reset literature - the flawed, overloaded design of the 5 volt WPC power system - there is simply too much load attached to the minimally capable 5v supply. So far the only consistent way to correct that flaw is to reduce the load on the 5v supply and that's exactly what the Daughterboard does. The best practices of maintaining the individual power supplies (bridges, caps, connectors, etc.) are still 100% relevant because the old components do degrade and fail, but the way to get the most life from those supplies is to achieve a better balance of loads across the available supplies.

Quoted from merccat:

If that is it, the kahr is basically the same concept as the ezsbc with the difference that the ezsbc replaces the faulty regulator with a switching regulator in its place. Note that just like the kahr the ezsbc is driving 5v from the 12v line (because that is what drives the original regualtor).

Wrong - replacing the LM323 with a PSU5 doesn't do that at all. It only replaces one component in an under-designed power supply with a more efficient switching device. That doesn't involve the 12v line in any way - the 12 volt line is not a part of the PDB 5v derivation. On the other hand, installing a WPC Power Fix does move the MPU's 5v load off the PDB 5v supply and instead delivers a separate 5v supply derived from the 12v digital supply (this is NOT the supply used by so many mods people like to install). Changing in derivation of 5v for the MPU reduces the overall loading on the PDB 5v supply - that helps stabilize older supplies and at the same time it removes the under voltage sensor from exposure to inevitable machine-wide variations in supply voltage on the minimally designed PDB 5v supply. Note the 12v digital supply is derived from the 18v supply through a 7812 regulator - the large derivation steps offer a good bit of "headroom" to compensate for fluctuations in voltages instead of relaying them through to the MPUs under voltage sensor.

Quoted from NPO:

I say just fix it right the first time and be done with it.

I say that too. By all means, maintain your power supplies as needed to keep them healthy - that can include replacing the LM323 (by the way, the LM7812 is a prime candidate for replacement as well - note that I talk about it here: http://www.kahr.us/index2.html ). And rebalance the machine's power loads with the WPC Power Fix. If you have any inclination to check the indicators, install the Pro version so you can periodically check the relative health of your power supplies over the long term. If you leave out the rebalancing you aren't addressing the root of the design flaw so you will be back in relatively short order poking through the system looking to recover another couple hundredths of a volt.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my replacement LED boards for model H and model S Skee Ball

#20 5 years ago

Ok, I had figured that based on the 12 input coming into the PSU5.

Yes, totally agree that the whole system needs to be addressed. In my case every step along the way I was gaining another little bit here or there adding up. Now I have 5.05 at the test point and 4.98 at the MPU and no evidence of any straining... life is good.

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from merccat:

Replacement of the 5v regulator with an Ezsbc solved my problem. Note that I had previously gone through the rest of the regular troubleshooting steps which had brought my 5v up a couple of tenths before this final step. Just replacing the regulator without the other steps probably would not have completely eliminated the issue, it was probably a combination of issues.
It’s great to play without fear of a reset!

For european pinball lovers: The replacement from Ezsbc can also be found on www.ebay.de. Look for 'LM323K Replacement Switching Regulator 5V 3A'.

I have the same problem on my ST:TNG, hope this will fix it.

#22 5 years ago

Glad you stepped in rKahr, you've explained it the way I always understood it. I have had 2 of your boards in STTNG and TAF for years without any reoccurrence of double flipper resets so THANKS! For my PIN2DMD displays I generate the 5v from the 12v unregulated (barely used for anything) through a buck converter.

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

But the "won't fix what is fixable" statement is incorrect - in fact it does fix what is otherwise not addressed in the reset literature...

IF....if if if if if, the 12V circuit is solid too.

See most people believe "well, the 5V circuit is given excess voltage from the 12V circuit, so my game is now 100% bulletproof with this daughter board installed....", and that is not true. People need to understand if that 12V circuit is weak, it WILL STILL RESET even with a daughterboard in it. Ask me how I know.

So yes, the daughterboard is a solid "crutch" to use if the 12V circuit is stout and sound.

Rob, I want to be very clear: I absolutely respect your contribution to the community. Heck, I bought 3 or 4 of your boards (2 to use, 2 for backups) at one point until my TAF went all sorts of crazy with the daughterboard installed, and that was due (in part) to the 12V circuit being weak. That was the moment I realized "All right, from here on out, we fix the root of the problem."

I know I constantly preach the "it's not a fix" angle, and it is not to attack you or your work (I'm sure you know that, for the sake of transparency, I am stating it). I preach it so people understand they did not throw in a magic bullet and everything will be all better now forever and ever.

People that tell me "Well, I've had it in my game for X years and everything is hunky dory..." well, that's great - how often do you play - 4 times a year? 4 times a month? A week? A day? How long do you play? 1 game? 3 games? 7 games? 2-3 hours? 5 hours?

A statement like that is not quantitative; it is subjective and ambiguous at best. You need to fix the problem - especially if you are ever going to sell the game. If I buy a game and I see that, I automatically ask for a discount because know I have to solve someone else's problem - and that's a fact - I'm buying someone else's problem.

OP, let us know how it goes once you've re-pinned the potential problem connectors!

#24 5 years ago

Not to beat a dead horse, but for <$10 in parts and a little of my time, my resets were fixed.....which is a less expensive than spending $35 for each pin that has a reset...that's the bottom line....

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from Sonic:

Not to beat a dead horse, but for &lt;$10 in parts and a little of my time, my resets were fixed.....which is a less expensive than spending $35 for each pin that has a reset...that's the bottom line....

Exactly. More and more, technical know how in this hobby is plummeting like a rock.

It's easy to plug a board in, avoid the problem and hope it never comes back. It takes some serious effort to get the tools, get the spare parts, pull the board, practice using the tools, locating the problem component, swapping the bad for the good, and putting everything back together. Or........determining that the old IDC connectors and pins are faulty and swapping all new pins and moles connectors.

Again, I ever see that board in a game and it's not disclosed to me prior, I'm so requesting a discount to make up for buying and fixing someone else's problems.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

Exactly. More and more, technical know how in this hobby is plummeting like a rock.
It's easy to plug a board in, avoid the problem and hope it never comes back. It takes some serious effort to get the tools, get the spare parts, pull the board, practice using the tools, locating the problem component, swapping the bad for the good, and putting everything back together. Or........determining that the old IDC connectors and pins are faulty and swapping all new pins and moles connectors.
Again, I ever see that board in a game and it's not disclosed to me prior, I'm so requesting a discount to make up for buying and fixing someone else's problems.

Most people are not going to do board repair. Soldering on a board and reading a schematic takes some experience and tools. Not everyone can or should do it. you can do a lot more damage than was initially there. I think the choice is between sending the board out for repair at over $100 or the Kahr board. If the kahr board “solves “ the problem of resets occuring I see no issue with it and the owner can now play his game for years. At most you shouldn’t take more than $100 or so off a game for resets. All games will eventually have this issue.

Quoted from Sonic:

Not to beat a dead horse, but for &lt;$10 in parts and a little of my time, my resets were fixed.....which is a less expensive than spending $35 for each pin that has a reset...that's the bottom line....

It’s more than just a little bit of time. If you know exactly the issue, it’s a little bit of time, but diagnosing can take a while. Even then, labeling all the connectors and pulling the board is at least a half hour for someone with some experience. And how many times have we reinstalled a board only to find the issue still persists. Board has to come back out.

Personally, I send the board out if it’s not something relatively simple as I am in the camp of fix and refurbish the board and even though I have more experience than most, I’d rather have a pro do it right. Other things get checked and the board comes back like new. I also like supporting others in the business where I can. Telling a buyer the board has been refurbished is also a plus.

Bottom line, for some, the kahr board is a great product.

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