(Topic ID: 288149)

Score and chime coils stay on during 4/5 balls

By LORDDREK

3 years ago


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  • 23 posts
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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by LORDDREK
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Crescendo 10 point relay (resized).jpg
#1 3 years ago

First time pinball owner with a Gottlieb Crescendo that is pretty clean and plays nice but has one issue. Sometimes on ball 4 and most every time on ball 5 both the 10’s reel coil and corresponding chime coil stay on and buzz away preventing anything worth 10 points from being scored.

Very rarely does this occur on ball 3 but once it does it is there for the rest of game. Also it is pretty common that either at start and/or during start of a ball the score reel gives 10 points and chimes. After game ends chime coil turns off but 10 reel buzzes away until start of new game.

Any ideas or places to start poking would be very helpful for this budding EM enthusiast I would be very grateful!

#2 3 years ago

I would check to see if any of the 10-pt scoring switches or rollovers are close to being stuck closed. You can use a small piece of electrical tape to keep each switch from closing and see if you can isolate which is the one giving you trouble.

Do you have the schematic for the game? That will be a huge help in debugging the issue.

Good to see another NH EM enthusiast, there are several here on Pinside.

#3 3 years ago

Wonderful to meet another local pinball enthusiast. I have met a couple others already. Nice to add another!

Yes I have the schematics for it but was a little lost trying to apply the map to the machine. I will give another go at it tomorrow I like the tape idea. Thank you!

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

Sometimes on ball 4 and most every time on ball 5 both the 10’s reel coil and corresponding chime coil stay on

Does the sticking 10 point score reel problem correlate to one or more of the 10-50 point "Flower" values in the center of the playfield?

Beware that most of the solenoids and relays in the game including score reels and chimes are designed to fire for only a very brief period of time - usually less than a second. If left on to buzz they can quickly overheat, enlarge and clamp down on the plungers that should move freely through them. Once that happens the coil, sleeve and plunger will likely need to be replaced. If left on long enough overheated solenoids can also damage or burn the surrounding area.

/Mark

#5 3 years ago

When the flower unit is only scorings 10’s (10-50) and coils are stuck on there is not much to score on but if 10x special is active everything scores fine except if the 10 point light is lit. Then it does not even award 100.

If a 10 point switch was sticky why does this only happen during ball 4-5 and not any time? Logically I keep wanting to gravitate to this. At the start sequence of ball 4 or 5 (3 a couple times) the machine clicks away and at the end of that is when it occurs. I can see the 10 reel shift slightly as coil pressure is applied but does not advance and it buzzes. The 10 point chime coil being on as well is something I just noticed last night.

Thank you for the warning about coils. The game was sold this way and it looks like some overheating has been going on for a while. The chime coil is not too bad as it goes off after game end but the score reel one stays stuck this way until you start a new game. So clearly this is a problem that needs to be addressed.

#6 3 years ago

I have new rubber and lights coming today so I’ll inspect and clean all relevant playfield switches while there.

It is amazing how something built with such simple components can be so complicated...

#7 3 years ago

There are many ways to fire the M/10 point relay in this game:
Crescendo 10 point relay (resized).jpgCrescendo 10 point relay (resized).jpg
Given that it works for half of the game or more I don't think it's a 10 point switch or pop bumper. More likely it's due to something that happens occasionally like the position of the F/Flower Value relay or carry over from one of the 1 point score reels.

Try activating the playfield switches by hand to see if you can characterize when the problem happens. What was the last thing that changed before the problem started? What makes the problem go away? Does it happen to both players? Does it happen in a 3 ball game? etc...

Or you could wait for the 10 point relay to stick on, then block a switch in each of the 8 paths leading to the M relay coil to see if you can figure out which path is sending power to it.

/Mark

#8 3 years ago

Thank you for the specific schematic. That was beyond helpful. I broke contact with every switch I could find testing game after each one. Found the coin door coil buzzing and fairly hot but I see that is supposed to be on. The flower bonus I blocked contact on wheel and saw nowhere else. The tilt hold interrupted it but I’d guess that is by design. The hold relay (R) one switch interrupted the 10s coil and the other the chime. Maybe this is by design? I flexstoned this one a bit it looked a little blackened.

After that I played a game where nothing was scoring I assumed I had made things worse but next next game played fine until the scoring wheel kept running without reason spooling off 10 points that advanced into hundreds and then a thousand. Glass was off so I ended ball at that point. Next ball it did it again but corrected after about a dozen score advances. Both times with chime of course.

So I hope maybe this narrows something down. I could not find where the scoring motor was on the schematic you gave me or I would check those contacts. Of course that unit is fairly intimidating...

#9 3 years ago

Sorry, I don't follow most of your reply.

I had suggested waiting for the M/10 point relay to lock on and then checking the switches that could supply the M/10 relay with power while it's locked on. Blocking switches ahead of time or in other parts of the game is something else entirely.

Your last post talks about the Score Motor running. Is that a different problem? The Score Motor is at 15E on the schematic between the Ball Return solenoid and the B relay coil.

#10 3 years ago

Sorry I was not clearer. And still working on terminology.

I did get the M relay to lock before attempting any switch manipulation. Replaying the game after each thing I messed with regardless if M relay power feed was broken or not.

Switching from 5 balls to 3 did not clear the problem. Still have coil lock starting with ball 4 or 5. Interestingly the 3 ball setting uses ball 3,4,5 maybe that is why problem carried over to that setting.

The tilt hold relay broke contact with M relay. I suspect this to be proper function.

The hold relay (R) also broke contact. One switch stopped the reel coil and the other stopped the chime coil. These contacts were blackened so I flexstoned them. The game acted pretty wonky after that for one game then went back to normal.

I have had the score motor run continually before it usually does not end until ball hits the ejector? This time it did it twice in one game. Almost like the game taunts me for getting close to solving the mystery. Again interestingly it is the 10 reel that spools away scoring points in rapid succession when this occurs. Maybe unrelated but I will look at this tonight since you have directed to the circuit on schematic.

I feel I am close and learning more about EM pins daily. Thank you so much for your support!

On a side note the game does seem to be running stronger so something must have gotten cleaned up and flowing better. I do plan on a general cleaning/inspection but wanted to fix this first if possible before I create more problems... lol!

#11 3 years ago

If the 10s reel is scoring away there could be a stuck 10-pt switch on the playfield that is making the M relay stay closed

#12 3 years ago

Thanks I plan on checking these as well but alas my parts shipment has been delayed thanks USPS so no rubber or bulbs yet...

#13 3 years ago

May or may not be relevant but I noticed tonight on a two player game the 10’s coil lock switches over to 2nd player and 1st player 10’s coil unlocks but the chime coil stays locked. So to recap:

TYPICAL 2 PLAYER GAME

1P-Ball 1-3 normal
2P-Ball 1-3 normal
1P-Ball 4 normal
2P-Ball 4 2P 10s coil locked, 10 chime coil locked
1P-Ball 5 1P 10s coil locked, 10 chime coil locked
2P-Ball 5 2P 10s coil locked, 10 chime coil locked
End-1P 10s coil locked until start of new game

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from Peruman:

You can use a small piece of electrical tape to keep each switch from closing and see if you can isolate which is the one giving you trouble.

I slip a small piece of an index card or the corner of a business card between switches to prevent a switch from closing. It’s rigid enough to slide in between easily.

Quoted from LORDDREK:

Switching from 5 balls to 3 did not clear the problem. Still have coil lock starting with ball 4 or 5. Interestingly the 3 ball setting uses ball 3,4,5 maybe that is why problem carried over to that setting.

Are you saying that the game does not end after 3 balls when it’s on that setting?

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

until the scoring wheel kept running without reason spooling off 10 points that advanced into hundreds and then a thousand.

What occurred just before the score wheel started spinning?

The key to debugging is methodically trying each portion of the game that would score 10 points. Don’t play with a ball, use you finger and hit the pop bumper skirt a bunch of times. Does that cause an issue? If not, move on to the next 10 pt item. As soon as the problem occurs, write down the last thing you did. Not only what switch you hit but where the score was, the payer, the ball count, number of flowers down, etc. The state of the game before the error is as much of a clue as the state after the error occurs.

The other option is to look at all the switches. You said you’re waiting for rubber and lights to do this, but those aren’t necessary to debug. Open that playfield up and get eyes on every switch (or at least the ones that score 10pts). I can tell you I’ve missed some obvious switch misalignments before which turned into an hour long schematic deciphering session only to realize if I would have looked closer to start, the problem was staring me in the face.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from steviechs:

Are you saying that the game does not end after 3 balls when it’s on that setting?

No I was saying that the 3 ball setting uses the 3,4,5 positions so last two balls in a 5 ball game are same balls in a 3 ball game.

The only switches left for me to inspect are the ones that go up thru the playfield so I am waiting for rubber and lights before taking plastics off.

The scoring reel spooled again and I was able to see some bank 4 switches arcing out pretty bad. The large contact deep down on level A was the worst. I look a short video of it. I then flexstoned it and it has not happened since.

I actually succumbed to temptation and filed most every switch contact. That was not good for my heart. Thought I messed it up for real. Startup cycle kept looping until I manually advanced player reel a bunch of times. Hundreds wouldn’t score and other weird scoring stuff for like 4 games before it was back to normal. One bumper lost some sensitivity but I imagine that is an easy enough fix.

I want to find the last circuit or two feeding relay M as Mark pointed out I will try to put more effort in that area tonight.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

No I was saying that the 3 ball setting uses the 3,4,5 positions so last two balls in a 5 ball game are same balls in a 3 ball game.

That sounds incorrect but without a schematic I can't say for sure. What did you see that gives that impression?

Quoted from LORDDREK:

The scoring reel spooled again and I was able to see some bank 4 switches arcing out pretty bad. The large contact deep down on level A was the worst. I look a short video of it. I then flexstoned it and it has not happened since.

It's less about what's happening after it starts running continuously . . . what happened right before the score motor started running endlessly?

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from steviechs:

That sounds incorrect but without a schematic I can't say for sure. What did you see that gives that impression?

The ball number in play that lights up.

I will keep an eye as to what occurred right before the score motor starts spooling.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from steviechs:

It's less about what's happening after it starts running continuously . . . what happened right before the score motor started running endlessly?

So this got me thinking and I seemed to recall the ball being in a certain spot on the playfield and sure enough there was a pretty mangled switch behind a rubber bumper that of course was buried under the pop up reset solenoid. I removed it, cleaned an obscene amount of car wax off, and reshaped to specs of sister switch. I hope this at least takes care of the runaway score motor.

I will reinvestigate the M relay again as that issue is still there. Quick question: These awesome little paper labels stuck to most parts in the head are coming off. I would really like to stick them back on. What is the recommended adhesive for this?

Thanks again for everyone’s help!

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:I would really like to stick them back on. What is the recommended adhesive for this?

Glue stick.

#21 3 years ago

If the problem only occurs during balls 3, 4, and 5, maybe there is a short in the wiring between something like the ball count unit and the M coil.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from jasonspoint28:

If the problem only occurs during balls 3, 4, and 5, maybe there is a short in the wiring between something like the ball count unit and the M coil.

There are a couple labeled coils that suggest ball counting I will look into those. I get a little lost looking at a schematic literally...

1 week later
#23 3 years ago

Problem solved.

I can’t thank MarkG enough for that condensed schematic that made it able for me to understand how these things actually work without any extra distractions.

So I traced it to 4th ball relay (4B) where after enough study and manipulation I realized that the actuating arm for switches was a little off center and was touching side of switch blade.

I also found if you drop playfield while the relay bank is opened up the drop target solenoid hits that actuation arm... So it is safe to say that has happened at least twice in 50 years lol!

Working fine now and the spooling score motor is from sticky drop targets. New ones are on order.

Thank you everyone who helped this EM newbie find his footing. I know my way pretty well around that machine now. Chalk up another win for PinSide!

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