(Topic ID: 79704)

League organizers, I need your help...

By swampfire

10 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 7 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by jeffc
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    #1 10 years ago

    For the last 2 years, the Atlanta Pinball League has operated with 20 players and 4 alternates. Paul Keifert did an excellent job mapping out the matchups for 20 players,4 games and 5 rounds (with one "on deck" group of 4 for each round). This has worked out really well, for everyone but the alternates. Basically, if you're an alternate you have show up and hope that someone else doesn't. That just sucks.

    So this year, we'd like to eliminate the Alternate role. This creates a new challenge: using M machines and R rounds, create matches for 20-24 players, using 3- or 4-player games. The only constraint is that everyone must play each machine exactly once. We want to avoid having players face each other more than once, but that may not be possible.

    If you've had this problem and solved it, please share your solution. We're kicking around some alternatives, but none of them allow everyone to show up, play every game, and have their score count.

    #2 10 years ago

    check your PM.

    #3 10 years ago

    Thanks Jeff.

    #4 10 years ago

    Use the FSPA rules (fspazone.com). You can accommodate everyone, and keep people grouped by skill.

    #5 10 years ago
    Quoted from zsciaeount:

    Use the FSPA rules (fspazone.com). You can accommodate everyone, and keep people grouped by skill.

    Should be http://fspazone.org/

    #6 10 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    For the last 2 years, the Atlanta Pinball League has operated with 20 players and 4 alternates. Paul Keifert did an excellent job mapping out the matchups for 20 players,4 games and 5 rounds (with one "on deck" group of 4 for each round). This has worked out really well, for everyone but the alternates. Basically, if you're an alternate you have show up and hope that someone else doesn't. That just sucks.
    So this year, we'd like to eliminate the Alternate role. This creates a new challenge: using M machines and R rounds, create matches for 20-24 players, using 3- or 4-player games. The only constraint is that everyone must play each machine exactly once. We want to avoid having players face each other more than once, but that may not be possible.
    If you've had this problem and solved it, please share your solution. We're kicking around some alternatives, but none of them allow everyone to show up, play every game, and have their score count.

    Do you play head to head or match games?

    FSPA has several 'algorithms' we use for game rotation.. but none are set in stone and which model tends to be a point of tuning. In FSPA leagues, you play group games, 4 matches a night, and which games you play is based on the game rotation and player selections.. a model that tries to give at least one game pick to the group, and get all groups through their 4 games while minimizing waiting.

    In an ideal case, one person picks the first game, and the other 3 games you play are assigned based on the other group's game picks. The algorithm assigns the play order trying to minimize backups waiting for games. How successful it is at minimizing waits is HIGHLY variable depending on the # of games, the games themselves, and the player skill levels. This is why there is no 'one algorithm to rule them all'.

    So all that set.. there are several charts used that have proven reliable over time.. but people still tweak and have their favorites. But all of that is based on group play. If you are playing head to head... whole new story

    #7 10 years ago

    I'll admit I don't understand the grouping for FSPA - I just show up and play
    http://www.fspazone.org/rules/current-fspa.html#Selection

    But here is a discussion we've had recently on the league email list discussing the grouping of machines. I hope it helps:

    "As for the rest of the machines in the set, there's no set rule. The rules mention a "well-defined scheme" which can be anything you like. We use a machine distribution known affectionately as the "grouping thingy", available here: http://www.fspazone.org/fspa-groupingthingy-0.2a.html. Basically, you assign each machine a letter as groups pick them for their first machine, then the other three machines for a given group follow the pattern. You can use whatever scheme fits your league.

    -----

    Just to give a little more detail to the previous message... the reason the rules don't specifically address this topic (machine selection for games 2-4 of a meet) is because it's highly dependent on the number of groups you have and the number of machines you have available for play at your location. The machine assignment procedure is going to be considerably different if you have more machines than you have groups (especially if you're fortunate enough to have LOTS of machines to choose from, say a dozen or more), vs. if you have fewer machines than groups (which typically means some groups will have to wait for a machine to open up). Also, if you have less than 4 machines available, groups will be required to play some machines twice during the same meet. There are basically infinite combinations, and we didn't want the rules to be infinitely long so we left it to leagues to figure out a scheme that works best for their particular situation... thus the "Selected machines are distributed among all the groups by the SLO, according to a well-defined scheme" language at the bottom of section 7 of the rules.

    If you'd like to use the Grouping Thingy that Dave linked to, let me offer a brief explanation of its use, because it's not at all obvious. Write letters A, B, C, .., one letter for each machine available. As you collect game picks from each group, write those game picks next to the letter corresponding to the group: A = group 1's machine pick, B = group 2's machine pick, etc. If you have more machines than groups, assign the extra letters to machines randomly. Then find the section of the Grouping Thingy that corresponds to however many machines you have. Finally, you'll see columns with groups of three letters (e.g. "BK1", "BK2", "sott(4)", etc) -- these correspond to different algorithms we've tried over time. No choice is "right" or "wrong", so just pick something, say the leftmost column. The letters in that column define the machines that each group will play for games 2-4.

    SO, concrete example: let's say you have 10 machines and will be using the leftmost "BK1" scheme.

    Group 1 will play: A, E, J, C.
    Group 2 will play: B, F, K, D.
    Group 3 will play: C, G, A, E.
    etc...

    (You'll note that the subsequent letters just rotate down the line in order with different offsets; there's no real magic involved.)

    Whew. It sounds pretty complicated but actually becomes pretty easy once you've done it a couple times.

    Finally, if your league decides to use FSPA rules, one thing we can offer you is your own instance of our Web site scorekeeping system (i.e. what you see at <http://fspa.league.tater.org/>. The site makes it much easier for your league officers to administer an FSPA-style league, and for your players to check results and stats. It also provides fun extra stuff like a badging (achievements) system to help further engage your players.

    Hope this helps! Don't hesitate to ping us if we can be of any further assistance, we love helping leagues. "

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