Soon there will be a rash of new Pinsiders who all say "I got into pinball when I saw WOZ's LCD display"

And then the DMD guys will be the old farts!

Aren't they already?

Some people just don't like change and/or are threatened by it. Try reading 'Who moved my cheese?' sometime. The LCD is great. I catch the ball often to see progress. Great for stacking. Would love to see some old threads when the DMD came out. It was probably heresy!!

To the comments about what the pin looks like when it's off... seriously? In the same breath you mention it's all about gameplay? Give me a break. Are you guys who think an LCD is the worst thing ever still going to complain when Stern has an LCD? I'm sure it'll be great then.

Now THAT'S the set-up I would LOVE to see.

Is the LCD necessary? Of course not. Neither is a DMD or a solid-state numeric display. But I own them all and prefer the LCD over the previous options. If people are perfectly happy with current DMDs, why do color DMDs quickly sell out with each new offering? The color looks much better and, more important, is easier to read, to separate detail, at a glance. I really don't care what size the LCD is, but I do care about high-resolution color video. There is no question in my mind that it is an improvement and that it has a lot of yet untapped potential. For example, the next code drop for WOZ is supposed to include the entire manual, which has numerous wiring charts that can be put on screen while you are working on the pin. So, I for one will be surprised if some kind of high-res screen is not standard issue on all pins within a few years.

These are the worst anti-LCD arguments of all time. Who cares what the game looks like when it's off!? It's OFF! LOL. Who are these people who stroll around their turned-off gamerooms marveling at the backglasses? You might as well say your games look stupid without having lights behind the backglass 24/7. The last thing any pinball manufacturer should care about is what people think about the game when it's off.

As for the topic. LCD/DMD = scoring display. It's 2014, no reason why the scoring display shouldn't be in color. It's not a dealbreaker or gamechanger, but I'm glad JJP went there...whether the approach was successful or not is debatable. Personally, I think it was a good first try. If you think about it, it's basically instant info all displayed at once. It's a good tool to help spectators understand what the player is doing, so when it's their turn, the game isn't so mysterious.

Not a fan of the LCD in the backbox at all.

I just did a quick walk through my house looking at machine adjustments through the decades.

1971:

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1977 (but it is an Alltek):

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1982:

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1993:

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2011:

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2013:

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Now I realize you don't play the adjustments. But I want the thing that can give me the most information I can get. I'm not saying which is better or worse though. These games are in my house, so obviously I like all of them. But over the next couple years there will be a lot of potential unlocked. And as a drastic example I'll use two of these games. Tron and WOZ. On Tron as the modes run there is a line on the DMD that gets smaller. So CLU, ZUSE, GEM all have a tiny little line that tell you how much time is left. In WOZ, the witch hurryup is a number counting down. Personally I think Tron would be improved by having enough space to tell me how much time I have to make that last CLU shot, but there wasn't enough space or resolution to do that. Don't take that to mean I don't love the game (I do), but technology improvements could have helped it.

At some point Stern will put out an LCD as well. My opinion is that it will be smaller to fit the backbox redesign they just did. And it will be an improvement on the DMD. Meanwhile JJP will continue to use a 26" LCD. And it's all good.

Guess I'm one of the few that DEFINITELY like the LCD.....big enough that I DO glance up at it for info during gameplay, and as far as color, clarity, an immersion into the game......really?....don't see how that can even come into discussion.....get into a mode, the screen animations starts, and it simply is all consuming ( so much so, that it's easy to drain because you get caught up in the video)....
I'm sure sizes, implementation, etc. can be debated and adapted, but the technology?....no way.....sort of like ColorDMD .......game changers....just my 2 cents.......

+1

Hate blank black backglasses when machine is off, also hate to see the art that is backglass/translight turn into jpegs....

To me the LCD monitor is just the gratual evolution of pinball.
Let's face it, look at a machine made in the 60s / 70s and something like Star Trek or in this case, Wizard Of Oz.
Night and day.
I agree you really can't look at the display while the game is going, but the future is so bright for what they could do with them.
As others have said, I would love a game with a built in dmd size LCD display.

My first thought also.

I can't figure out why so many people get all dick hard over a their favorite game finally getting the color DMD treatment and LCDs getting a lukewarm reception. If Steve Ritchie had the options of DMDs or LCDs when made T2 he probably would have said "F!#$ this DMD s!#$. You can do so much more with LCDs. Why is this even an argument?"

Because it's Pinside.

Why are so many people misinterpreting this thread??? It is the size of the LCD that is being debated, not whether we should stick with DMDs. No sane person thinks we should stay with DMDs over LCDs. The point some (including me) are making is that the LCD should be small enough to fit below a full sized backglass/translite. 14 inches would be perfect. It would still catch the eye, take advantage of technology, but not throw off the balance of it being a pinball machine and not a video game.

Sorry if I misinterpreted ......the thread was titled "LCD screen in place of a Translite"......I guess you're right...the complaint ( from some) is the size, not technology. I still agree w Rarehero....when game is off, it's off, so not a valid point. Can put a lot of cool stuff on a big screen....just sayin......

I don't know if "revolutionize" is correct, but a major improvement, I still think yes.....I can actually see the screen and animations....artistic implementation will have to be evaluated on a game by game basis for size, shape, etc.

I DO like WOZ ( a lot)....and that's one of the reasons, but not all of them. I like a lot of titles, and like them better w ColorDMD until something else comes out......

Well according the first post, it was lcd or not? Has nothing to do with size. In fact he never even used the words size of lcd screen but whatever......

I for one think its great, its the evolution of pinball.

I don't think LCD panels need to be on pinball machines. Know why?...

... BECAUSE EVERY FRICKIN' GADGET AND DEVICE HAS A GOD DAMN LCD SCREEN THESE DAYS!

Every place you look there is a goddamn computer screen in your face - your phone, computer, dedicated handheld gaming device, television, tablet, car, and even on your wrist watch now... its just ridiculous. Pinball is a bit retro and it should just stay that way.

I missed nothing, the original post was about the use of an LCD in a pinball machine, not about the size, and I stand by what I said, there are a lot of people on here who seem very threatened by change, especially when that change is made by JJP.

Certainly a smaller sized LCD display is an option, but the full size display is what I and a lot of others prefer, remains to be seen what the standard will become, but when you are talking about displays, seldom is smaller better. The cost of doing the graphics like on WOZ/The Hobbit is large, to me seems a waste to put them on a small screen.

What you do with the LCD is what matters. Arguing about the "correct" size is just a waste of time…

I've played 2 games on WOZ, so I can't comment on how great the LCD is or isn't (in terms of gameplay). Obviously nice eye candy to draw someone in.

As I mentioned on a similar thread... This is an opportunity to get a new generation interested in pinball without destroying the game itself. Why not have networked video modes to play against some one else as a feature, it might get them hooked on the game itself, then play some more and get a little better each time. Then they see an older machine somewhere and think "I know how to play this" and have a half decent game. It can build from there, Its kind of how I got started as an 8yo on Supersonic, even with the intro of video games at the time, I was hell bent on pinball.
Not sure about the rest of the world but down here in Oz (Australia) pinball is very much on life support. Very difficult to find in the wild- even the arcades are full of crap games issuing tickets for plastic junk. New machines are ridiculously expensive to play let alone buy and they have to evolve or be left for collectors only.

No one on this topic has mentioned the first thing I thought of when I saw WOZ... AWESOME ADVERTISING SPACE!!! When its not in use it can be used to sell, and the owner or venue can then charge for the space, making another form of income from one machine. I know its killing the art, and I probably sound like a sell out, but if it means I can walk into a bar and PICK which machine to play, I think its worth the sacrifice.
As far as I can tell the biggest problem is finding a way to get machines back out into the public space, this is just a way of achieving it in this totally exploited, commercial world of ours.
I am now getting off my soapbox....

Dang nab it..

I hate all this new crazy technology.

First you put a stinking TV into the back of a pinball game, then you make the boards so small they don't even fill the cabinet head on a Medieval!

Crappy youth and their fast lifestyle....

Too funny...and correct.....

In my day we didn't have flippers!!

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What I love about ColorDMD is it keeps the dots. I don't even care for the upscaled modes. It still feels period correct, like it belongs, but in awesome color.

I couldn't care less about what my games look like turned off, who cares? I turn them on when I want to look at them or show them off. I just think we might end up with crappy animation when all of a sudden it's HD. Dots can hide a lot.

Stern will continue to claim they haven't gone to LCD because of the time it would take to do artwork. There is NO reason Stern can't continue doing lower resolution "dot matrix" resolution but impliment an LCD display (can still be size of DMD, perhaps double height like SEGA). Hell, split up a double height DMD size, do all the scoring on the bottom, and keep the upper half JUST for the animations (so you can always see scores and ball number). If Stern, or some hobbyist wants to poke around and rewrite code with higher resolution in 20 years they can because the hardware is there.

Yeah you can advertise on DMDs but you don't have the option of taking a customers USB stick plugging it in and all their artwork, logos, etc appear in full HD on screen. People want to just plug in and not worry about having to get something programmed just to advertise on a pinball machine. Being able to swap out advertisers easily is key to it being successful. Most people don't feel nostalgic when it comes to their branding and want to see it in its full graphic glory...

Reminds me of a quote from Star Trek III, The Search for Spock
[their first look at the USS Excelsior]

Uhura: Would you look at that.

Kirk: My friends, the great experiment: The Excelsior. Ready for trial runs.

Sulu: She's supposed to have transwarp drive.

Scotty: Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

Kirk: Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.

It's time Stern embraced the LCD

A big ass price jump.

OK, you are nuts. To be able to look up and see all of your progress rather then having to sit there and hold the flipper and read through a bunch of scrolling text is beyond useful. LCD over a static, useless image totally changes the gameplay. You actually KNOW where you are for certain goals the whole time.

But this looks better....

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Stop using logic. That will never work.

In all seriousness, I just don't get it. People here are complaining about the use of "real estate" on a 720p high definition display, looping animations, etc. but talk about "great dots" with the Speak and Spell display on a DMD machine?

I also here people arguing that they don't like the way WOZ looks when it is shut off? Are you really serious?

The LCD on WOZ adds hardly anything to the play experience and until I put enough games on the machine to actually know what was going on, all of the information on the LCD was actually confusing rather than helping.

Also, at my local arcade, both STLE and Mario Bros Mushroom World get more play than WOZ, so I don't know if the attract element is that strong.

But once you have a cursory knowledge of the rules for WOZ, they make total sense. The number of winkie guards left to hit, the progression through rainbow and what letters are remaining, any specific hurry up countdown, what modes are active, etc. are all right there and would be impossible to present properly in a monochrome DMD in the same manner. Why would you not want the data presented this way in full HD color? You would rather trap the balls and hold the right flipper to get a status update?

The answer here: OLD PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE OLD PEOPLE. Same people who dont like mods and LED's. Its grumpy old men.

Ummm....ok?

You don't really have to guess. If the playmeter reports are correct then you have a good indicator.

Tell it to my balls!!!

You know what? F**k all this LCD bullshit. It really is everywhere anyways in the modern world. I want advancements in pinball gameplay. That's it. If LCD comes with it, fine... The Sterns and JJPs obviously don't give a shit about that at all with the licensed monstrosities they keep pumping out. And lets be real, WOZ is just style over substance. The only hope I have right now for pinball for moving in the right direction are the JPOP pins. Hopefully they are super badass and highly influential, that's all I gotta say.

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Agreed, plasma all the way!!!

I hear it's kind of deep actually.

I'd welcome LCDs replacing DMD technology. I'm tried of all the lame matrix blocks being out of alignment in the new stern displays.
Do I think the LCD needs to fill the backglass? No.
A DMD sized LCD would be awesome.

Love the ColorDMD on STNG ... now if I can find a nice sized LCD to replace my 128x16 Data East display on my Star Trek. Have ColorDMD in Stern ST in monochrome mode - much better than the red LED dmd that came stock.
I STILL can't believe Mustang shipped without a color lcd... we were all expecting it on Star Trek... and they still haven't done it on Mustang?!?

I personally welcome Multimorphic's / PROC platform. I think it's the right move in the LCD movement.

Screw LCD's! I wanna see who's first with holograms!!

Ben Heck could probably make that happen....