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(Topic ID: 262382)

Discovered the rarest EM pinball machine - UPDATE: NOW TWO


By Otaku

7 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 49 posts
  • 25 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Electrocute
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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#1 7 months ago

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Hi all, hope you are well. I'm doing great! While I'm no longer an active user and have no plans to be, I figured I would drop in and share some history for pinball's sake...

About a year ago I uncovered a completely unknown big mystery surrounding Williams' "Spacelab" pinball machine that started with a confused look at a new-to-me Spacelab machine that was different than everything IPDB had to offer, and ended up in much research and a large-scale write-up, finally leaking all the details to public view via my website and Facebook groups in December of 2019. I held off on posting this for a few months, but figured since IPDB finally caught wind of details on Spacelab "A" and created the new page for it, that I would share the great story here.

A full documentary of the discovery and a detailed overview of such can be found here (information collected and posted online in Facebook groups for a few years, written through the beginning of 2019, posted December 2019), I would love to post here but unfortunately it utilizes a lot of tables and images which really can't transfer well, the page is free and isn't running ads or anything, just seems there isn't any kind of table formatting here: http://thegameseum.com/spacelab2/

Also features ample pictures, which were the first to hit the interwebs and were very different that the IPDB photos at the time (now known to be the converted Spacelabs), which is what inspired me to dig deeper.

AFAIK Spacelab ("A") now ranks as the world's rarest pinball machine that was released and isn't a prototype - beating Williams' notorious "Black Gold" by about 30 machines. Based on very deep research and questioning around the community, the only 2 known to still exist are owned by me and a gentlemen named Don.

I am also running a serial number registry on the page due to the unique circumstances of these machines. If you would like to be added (even anonymously), feel free to reach out somehow!

IPDB is still seeking a schematic and I have one that came with the machine, but I need to locate it. I remember it had a ton of great USA/Italian options on it, really fascinating piece!

I hope you all enjoy the read.

All the best,
Steven

12
#2 7 months ago

I would also like to take the time to sincerely apologize for my past actions here years ago as a teenager (when I wasn't in the best or most experienced place and made a lot of embarrassing decisions), and hope my random one-off post with good intentions doesn't cause a ruckus, it's solely for my burning love of pinball and something I wanted to share with you all - enthusiast to enthusiast. It's a time I am not proud and I hope you understand I was young, naive, surrounded by people here trying to get under my skin - and as a result turned into something completely opposite of who I was, especially now, but even back then. I would like to take the time sincerely apologize to all of you, especially those I interacted with in an negative manner, and hope we can more forward as adults. I don't plan to return to the site fulltime, but still would like to express my deepest and most sincere apologies, and an apology to the site moderators for the ruckuses and my negative expressions of Pinside itself, which is something I feel we are all very blessed to have as a resource, including those who volunteer a clearly large amount of their time to moderate it. The internet at 16 is a tricky thing, and all of your teenage mistakes end up resonating a lot longer and ended up in front of 5,000 people instead of 5, which only made things worse and added fuel to the fire. It is not a time I am proud of. Very sorry, and with the fire now died down and no longer affecting anything, I hope it is clear my apology is genuine and I truly mean it rather than just trying to avoid criticism or appease anybody. Hope you enjoy Spacelab "A".

All the best,
Steven

#3 7 months ago

Steven
Enjoyed reading your posts. Wasn’t aware that this game was so rare. Ahhh. The joy of the hunt and what one may find.

As for your posts earlier, don’t sweat it. I for sure am not Mr Popular either. Anymore one has to be very thoughtful about what they say or even not what they say but what could be gleaned from ones words. Again, I enjoy your passion for the e/m’s and I would imagine that by this point your a wealth of knowledge. For those who choose to, you would be a great source/contact in this theatre. And for those that don’t, oh well, their loss!

Nice to see your back and I enjoyed reading your thread!

G

#4 7 months ago
Quoted from GPS:

Steven
Enjoyed reading your posts. Wasn’t aware that this game was so rare. Ahhh. The joy of the hunt and what one may find.
As for your posts earlier, don’t sweat it. I for sure am not Mr Popular either. Anymore one has to be very thoughtful about what they say or even not what they say but what could be gleaned from ones words. Again, I enjoy your passion for the e/m’s and I would imagine that by this point your a wealth of knowledge. For those who choose to, you would be a great source/contact in this theatre. And for those that don’t, oh well, their loss!
Nice to see your back and I enjoyed reading your thread!
G

Thanks GPS. It is my pleasure. The fire of pinball still burns strong inside of me and I feel very blessed to have discovered this machine, and it will surely be the last one to leave if it ever comes to that!

If you're ever out my way, stop by the museum - drinks on me.

#5 7 months ago

I also just noticed after my article they reached out to James Loflin (a kind man with many wonderful pinball assets! I bought some great production artwork from him over the years) and he seems to have contributed a diagram to the page, which is awesome. Before writing I was in contact with the Strong Museum and planned to purchase photocopies of the entire portfolio of Spacelab to see if I could dig up anything related to this to include on the page, but with the cost being a little nonsensical for what at the time was a private discovery (and possibly more for distribution rights - bit of a gray area for free use) and no guarantee I would find anything, I decided to pass until a later date and never ended up getting back to it... the stuff's not going anywhere. Said drawing and possibly even more documentation is likely in that portfolio.

#6 7 months ago

It was also curious to see IPDB added one thing to my findings, that a knocker was not installed from the factory. But it is

My knocker is in place as well as the jack, which is why I didn't note anything related to the knocker on the original page.

In the IPDB photos it appears Don's jack is present (which they wouldn't stuff and wire in, if it wasn't to be added), and likely Don's knocker was simply unplugged, unscrewed, and removed by an operator at some point in the last few decades.

Knocker is alive and well in Spacelab "A"!
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#7 7 months ago

Since IPDB was looking, I just went through my Facebook and found these pics I took in February 2019 of what appears to be the last existing schematic. It is not like other schematics, the ink is more like some of the factory documents I've bought from James Loflin, and almost appears it may be the master copy... but also could be just a coincidence. It is a full size Williams schematic (aka giant as hell)

You can see where I took a picture of the unique USA/Italy option found inside of the cabinet. (Which I will also attach a picture of below)

It's in the back of one of my tractor trailers somewhere. I'll have to dig it out sometime, although probably more historical than needed for tune-ups. God I hope it's not lost, the last thing I need to lose

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15
#8 7 months ago

Hi Steven,

This post is only an hour old, or so, and I've already been contacted asking to give you credit for our IPDB updates for our Spacelab listings. News travels fast! Except you and I have never communicated. My hunch is that the title you have given this thread, "I discovered the rarest EM pinball machine - IPDB updated w/ findings" implied to the person who contacted me that you and I have communicated about your findings and that I have placed your findings on the IPDB.

I, too, am excited for your discovery but to avoid additional confusion I should gently correct a few things you wrote that could mislead (additional) people.

Quoted from Otaku:

but figured since IPDB finally caught wind of my details, I would share the great story here.

I am unaware of your details. You and I have not communicated until this thread. I do not know about any webpages you may have.

Quoted from Otaku:

(I would've been happy to provide them for use on IPDB if asked, but it appears they contacted the other owner to recreate them all. Haven't heard a peep from them - feel free to reach out...)

You assume I am a regular here on pinside. Ask around. I rarely visit this site so please do not look at it that I am not contacting you. Rather, the IPDB keeps me pretty busy and we rely on our users to contact us with their contributions. That's been the, uh, unspoken social agreement since Day One over 20 years ago that we are a contributor-driven database where folks contact us but indeed I have been wondering if the newer group of hobbyists has flipped that expectation 180 degrees. I do not "hang out" on any pinball site except the IPDB. Not that we are snobs but it is just me there and I am IPDB-centric. In fact, some folks will email me if something is interesting on pinside, then I show up here. That's how I found this thread, because someone emailed me about it.

Quoted from Otaku:

the only 2 known to still exist are owned by me and a gentlemen named Don, who it seems IPDB reached out to for photos after my article (could've called me - I already had billions! ).

Actually, it was Don who emailed ME, with images, in mid-2018, right after we began having our major problem in updating the IPDB. This problem went on for over a year and a lot of work backed-up. Like many other old-timers, I have long been aware of the 30 Spacelabs (we had that number already) but could not do anything about updating our listings. After the problem was over, I was catching up, and Don emailed me again in December 2019 to move forward on this listing update. Now, if Don had become aware of your game to prompt him to email me a reminder, this I do not know. I frequently tell our users to email me a reminder if something they have in motion with me has not yet appeared on the site.

There are many people in the hobby and only one of me, and they each know what games they have while I do not. Pinside members move all around this large website with its thousands of threads while I am a stationary target. So you can see why it's reasonable to ask that our users be the ones to do the reaching out, to me.

Quoted from Otaku:

As a direct result of my research, a few months later, it is exciting to see the IPDB has now created a brand new page for discovered machine with all of the information I have uncovered, what I deem Spacelab "A", and heavily edited the original page for the "B" model to reflect the change, which is really exciting to me and an honor that I could provide such details:

No, not a direct result of your research, for whatever goodness you have found, sir. As you wrote, you haven't heard a peep out of me. I've never heard of your "A" and "B" designations until this thread and I do not use those terms in our listing update. You and I have not communicated before.

Quoted from Otaku:

I also just noticed after my article they reached out to James Loflin

No, not "after your article". Actually, I have had those diagrams for almost two years. Again, we got behind because of our inability to update the IPDB for the longest time (I avoid saying "downtime" as we were full functional for viewing). I am unaware of your article.

Quoted from Otaku:

It was also curious to see IPDB added one thing to my findings, that a knocker was not installed from the factory. But it is

Obviously, then, we did not communicate with you for us to have said that.

I think what has happened is a coincidence between your research and my updating our listings. Two events that happened in spite of each other and in the same time vicinity that caused you to think I was aware of you. All of my information came from Williams Daily Production Logs and James Loflin's diagrams and from talking with Don about his game, and from a fellow named Ryan.

With apologies, while this is your personal discovery, our listing updates are based almost exclusively on information I have had for two years or more, in addition to my personal knowledge of the Spacelabs from being in the hobby for many years. However, I don't update the IPDB with my personal knowledge until I can back it up. Many of us old-timers know of things that are not on the IPDB because, while they are true, we have only our memories which are anecdotal.

With that said, there are more than two of these games known to exist. Depends on who you know.

So, I hope this clarifies our wild coincidence to anyone who reads this thread and might assume from it that you and I had been working together to update the IPDB. I have not snubbed you, because you and I have never contacted each other and I have not seen your research.

At your convenience, and if you are willing, please contact us with any pictures (for which you are the photographer) including a good one of the knocker, and also perhaps the schematic you mention that you have. My email address is below (don't post the info here, please).

Thank you,

Jay
IPDB
jay@ipdb.org

#9 7 months ago
Quoted from I_P_D_B:

Hi Steven,
This post is only an hour old, or so, and I've already been contacted asking to give you credit for our IPDB updates for our Spacelab listings. News travels fast! Except you and I have never communicated. My hunch is that the title you have given this thread, "I discovered the rarest EM pinball machine - IPDB updated w/ findings" implied to the person who contacted me that you and I have communicated about your findings and that I have placed your findings on the IPDB.
I, too, am excited for your discovery but to avoid additional confusion I should gently correct a few things you wrote that could mislead (additional) people.

I am unaware of your details. You and I have not communicated until this thread. I do not know about any webpages you may have.

You assume I am a regular here on pinside. Ask around. I rarely visit this site so please do not look at it that I am not contacting you. Rather, the IPDB keeps me pretty busy and we rely on our users to contact us with their contributions. That's been the, uh, unspoken social agreement since Day One over 20 years ago that we are a contributor-driven database where folks contact us but indeed I have been wondering if the newer group of hobbyists has flipped that thinking 180 degrees. I do not "hang out" on any pinball site except the IPDB. Not that we are snobs but it is just me there and I am IPDB-centric. In fact, some folks will email me if something is interesting on pinside, then I show up here. That's how I found this thread, because someone emailed me about it.

Actually, it was Don who emailed ME, with images, in mid-2018, right after we began having our major problem in updating the IPDB. This problem went on for over a year and a lot of work backed-up. Like many other old-timers, I have long been aware of the 30 Spacelabs (we had that number already) but could not do anything about updating our listings. After the problem was over, I was catching up, and Don emailed me again in December 2019 to move forward on this listing update. Now, if Don had become aware of your game to prompt him to email me a reminder, this I do not know. I frequently tell our users to email me a reminder if something they have in motion with me has not yet appeared on the site.
There are many people in the hobby and only one of me, and they each know what games they have while I do not. Pinside members move all around this large website with its thousands of threads while I am a stationary target. So you can see why it's reasonable to ask that our users be the ones to do the reaching out, to me.

No, not a direct result of your research, for whatever goodness you have found, sir. As you wrote, you haven't heard a peep out of me. I've never heard of your "A" and "B" designations until this thread and I do not use those terms in our listing update. You and I have not communicated before.

No, not "after your article". Actually, I have had those diagram for almost two years. Again, we got behind because of our inability to update the IPDB for the longest time (I avoid saying "downtime" as we were full functional for viewing).

Obviously, then, we did not communicate with you for us to have said that.
I think what has happened is a coincidence between your research and my updating our listings. Two events that happened in spite of each other t in the same time vicinity that caused you to think I was aware of you. All of my information came from Williams Daily Production Logs and James Loflin's diagrams and from talking with Don about his game.
With apologies, while this is your personal discovery, our listing updates are based almost exclusively on information I have had for two years or more, in addition to my personal knowledge of the Spacelabs from being in the hobby for many years. However, I don't update the IPDB with my personal knowledge until I can back it up. Many of us old-timers know of things that are not on the IPDB because, while they are true, we have only our memories which are anecdotal.
So, I hope this clarifies our wild coincidence to anyone who reads this thread and might assume from it that you and I had been working together to update the IPDB. I have not snubbed you, because you and I have never contacted each other.
At your convenience, and if you are willing, please contact us with any pictures (for which you are the photographer) including a good one of the knocker, and also perhaps the schematic you mention that you have.
Thank you,
Jay
IPDB

Hi Jay! Hope you are well. I'm also not an active user and haven't been on the site in months so I wasn't implying that you weren't checking Pinside, because I don't post here either and have never mentioned this here. I felt like you may have misread the tone of my post... this was more of a "Check out these cool findings... also they ended up IPDB, which is cool" rather than anything close to a "Grrrrr IPDB didn't credit me!" kind of post. Sorry if it came off that way.

I wasn't the one who reached out to you about credit, and while I appreciate whoever did, it's not really one of my priorities in this. I think it's cool the information is getting around.

I wasn't offended by the lack of credit and was just sharing my article and noting that it seemed to effect IPDB, I didn't claim we spoke, or anything you mentioned - I simply said it's now on IPDB. I am a little surprised and confused by the tone of your reply, and given the tone, I hope the person who contacted you wasn't rude or anything, but then again, it wasn't me. I will edit the title though to remove any mention of IPDB...

Quoted from I_P_D_B:

Don emailed me again in December 2019 to move forward on this listing update. Now, if Don had become aware of your game to prompt him to email me a reminder, this I do not know.

This is clearly what happened, and I'm assuming Don also provided you most of the info... which he clearly took from my site. Every little detail (even the serial number format bit, the stars, the backbox insert, etc.) is nearly copied word for word. I've been throwing the discovery around for quite some time (as well as Don's name which I found years ago via IPSND during my research and noticing his serial format matched mine, attempting to establish contact, which is likely how he heard he had the "odd" Spacelab) before I published the article, and the December 2019 release of my article clearly inspired Don to reach out with the details later in the month. I wasn't calling anybody at IPDB a crook or anything to begin with, and assumed somebody had passed the details to you rather than you ripping the details directly from my page, and was simply noting they were now on IPDB and even plugged your site. All in good faith, I didn't expect anybody to take a negative angle to it... none intended at least.

I'm just trying to share the story with Pinside, and was excited to see my details made it to IPDB - no matter who it went through. Sorry if it somehow came off as anything other.

But now that you mention it you never heard of my page or my machine? Your page conveniently even mentions the "2 Spacelabs we are aware of", one surely being mine, unless there is another Spacelab you are aware of. (Which I would love to hear so I can add it to my registry - if the owner is willing) There are no other machines registered on IPSND, including mine, so I'm not sure which #2 you were referencing. If #3 exists that is great to hear.

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All the best,
Steven

#10 7 months ago

Or hey, maybe it's all a coincidence! Either way is fine... I'm just proud to discover it and release it for the very first time without any information being available, which was the point of the article and this thread. Thanks again and sorry if the tone of my thread came off wrong Jay.

Steven

#11 7 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

[quoted image]
Hi all, hope you are well. I'm doing great! While I'm no longer an active user and have no plans to be, I figured I would drop in and share some history for pinball's sake...
About a year ago I uncovered a completely unknown big mystery surrounding Williams' "Spacelab" pinball machine that started with a confused look at a new-to-me Spacelab machine that was different than everything IPDB had to offer, and ended up in much research and a large-scale write-up, finally leaking all the details to public view via my website and Facebook groups in December of 2019. I held off on posting this for a few months, but figured since IPDB finally caught wind of my details, I would share the great story here.
A full documentary of the discovery and a detailed overview of such can be found here (written through the beginning of 2019, posted December 2019), I would love to post here but unfortunately it utilizes a lot of tables and images which really can't transfer well, the page is free and isn't running ads or anything, just seems there isn't any kind of table formatting here: http://thegameseum.com/spacelab2/
Also features ample pictures. (I would've been happy to provide them for use on IPDB if asked, but it appears they contacted the other owner to recreate them all. Haven't heard a peep from them - feel free to reach out...)
AFAIK Spacelab ("A") now ranks as the world's rarest pinball machine that was released and isn't a prototype - beating Williams' notorious "Black Gold" by about 30 machines. Based on very deep research and questioning around the community, the only 2 known to still exist are owned by me and a gentlemen named Don, who it seems IPDB reached out to for photos after my article (could've called me - I already had billions! ).
As a direct result of my research, a few months later, it is exciting to see the IPDB has now created a brand new page for discovered machine with all of the information I have uncovered, what I deem Spacelab "A", and heavily edited the original page for the "B" model to reflect the change, which is really exciting to me and an honor that I could provide such details:
Dedicated Spacelab: https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=6620
Conversion Spacelab: https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2264
What the single page looked like before my discovery: https://web.archive.org/web/20190320065608/https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2264
I am also running a serial number registry on the page due to the unique circumstances of these machines. If you would like to be added (even anonymously), feel free to reach out somehow!
IPDB is still seeking a schematic and I have one that came with the machine, but I need to locate it. I remember it had a ton of great USA/Italian options on it, really fascinating piece!
I hope you all enjoy the read.
All the best,
Steven

I’m glad you are obviously very very very marginally humbled by the years that have passed. It doesn’t seem all that long ago to be honest.
Your posts are very entertaining and I don’t mind reading them. But this one is a prime example of your inflated hubris and i_p_d_b isolated all the best ones.

It’s cool you figured out there was a difference in the Spacelabs, it seemed pretty odd to most folks looking at it. I have seen 3 in person and thought it odd that I would have come into contact with 10% of the rarest production EM. I think most folks who are into numbers and stats knew there was a deeper story. But still, you were able to fit the pieces together. Congrats!

I have submitted interesting updates to IPDB about Baby Pac-Man only to find out that others have beaten me to it. As Jay pointed out, the huge issue with updates really held back a lot. I submitted some things only to find out “hey someone else did it first”

Now let me say this. I think as young people on the Internet, when you find an information gap, you get excited. We think the Internet has all of the unlimited human knowledge. Then you get this idea that maybe you’ve stumbled across this amazing unknown story. You’ve found knowledge never before seen on the Internet!!!

The old timers have seen it all and heard it all. This is why I try to talk a lot with the older folks in the hobby and always get their opinions. Occasionally I will prefer a modern way of doing things, but 9 out of 10 times, I find out the old way was way easier and a more efficient way. Then I tear apart the modern version and implement the tried and true method the older collectors have taught me.

New blood brings a lot to the table, however it’s just an all-too-common trap to dismiss all elder wisdom and believe nobody knows more than yourself.
Your posts reek of this self-congratulatory nonsense. Even keeping your own little serial number table as if someone will reach out to be graced by you hosting their number on your website? The IPSND exists and you used THEIR data THEY already had and yet it seems like you want to take over because it’s not “yours”. Even the thread title is another “I” statement.

Congrats on your museum, you’ve proven enough folks wrong and shown the old coots that you can get a business up and running and maintain it for some time. That’s a huge accomplishment. So you should take that pride of that accomplishment and be satisfied with it. Own it.
Now that you’ve done that, you can step back and start listening to some guys who’ve been around the block and get their feedback. Even if you disagree, just try and understand WHY they are telling you these things. Understand that a lot of guys have already been in your shoes and run a business. Learn from their failures AND THEIR SUCCESS. It’s not shameful to take GOOD ADVICE from the elders of the hobby and actually use it.

I’m glad you’re doing well Steven, and I think it’s great you found some interesting information. You could really work with Jay and others, set aside your thirst for recognition. Realize you don’t need your name in giant pop-out font on top of “Spacelab” “Discovered by the amazing, incredible, underestimated, young handsome, genius-level entrepreneur, the savior of our time, the literal brainchild of pinball, Steven!”

Like it’s okay, you figured it out, your name will be included under your pictures. The database is unbiased. I never knew Jay’s name until I saw his posts here on Pinside. The IPDB is basically thousands and thousands of pinheads who share their data and contribute to make an amazing localized database of pinball knowledge. It doesn’t matter WHO gets credit for these things, at the end of the day, you’ve contributed to the betterment and improved the knowledge of the hobby. That should be enough.

Take pride in the little things and you’ll continue to grow and your Gameseum will prosper even further.

#12 7 months ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

I’m glad you are obviously very very very marginally humbled by the years that have passed. It doesn’t seem all that long ago to be honest.
Your posts are very entertaining and I don’t mind reading them. But this one is a prime example of your inflated hubris and i_p_d_b isolated all the best ones.
It’s cool you figured out there was a difference in the Spacelabs, it seemed pretty odd to most folks looking at it. I have seen 3 in person and thought it odd that I would have come into contact with 10% of the rarest production EM. I think most folks who are into numbers and stats knew there was a deeper story.
I have submitted interesting updates to Baby Pac-Man only to find out that others have beaten me to it. As Jay pointed out, the huge issue with updates really held back a lot. I submitted some things only to find out “hey someone else did it first”
Now let me say this. I think as young people on the Internet, when you find an information gap, you get excited. We think the Internet has all of the unlimited human knowledge. Then you get this idea that maybe you’ve stumbled across this amazing unknown story. You’ve found knowledge never before seen on the Internet!!!
The old timers have seen it all and heard it all. This is why I try to talk a lot with the older folks in the hobby and always get their opinions. Occasionally I will prefer a modern way of doing things, but 9 out of 10 times, I find out the old way was way easier and a more efficient way. Then I tear apart the modern version and implement the tried and true method the older collectors have taught me.
New blood brings a lot to the table, however it’s just an all-too-common trap to dismiss all elder wisdom and believe nobody knows more than yourself.
Your posts reek of this self-congratulatory nonsense. Even keeping your own little serial number table as if someone will reach out to be graced by you hosting their number on your website? Even the thread title is another “I” statement.
Congrats on your museum, you’ve proven enough folks wrong and shown the old coots that you can get a business up and running and maintain it for some time. That’s a huge accomplishment. So you should take that pride of that accomplishment and be satisfied with it. Own it.
Now that you’ve done that, you can step back and start listening to some guys who’ve been around the block and get their feedback. Even if you disagree, just try and understand WHY they are telling you these things. Understand that a lot of guys have already been in your shoes and run a business. Learn from their failures AND THEIR SUCCESS. It’s not shameful to take GOOD ADVICE from the elders of the hobby and actually use it.
I’m glad you’re doing well Steven, and I think it’s great you found some interesting information. You could really work with Jay and others, set aside your thirst for recognition. Realize you don’t need your name is giant pop-out font on top of “Spacelab” “Discovered by the amazing, incredible, underestimated, young handsome, genius-level entrepreneur, the savior of our time, the literal brainchild of pinball, Steven!”
Like it’s okay, you figured it out, your name will be included under your pictures. The database is unbiased. I never knew Jay’s name until I saw his posts here on Pinside. The IPDB is basically thousands and thousands of pinheads who share their data and contribute to make an amazing localized database of pinball knowledge. It doesn’t matter WHO gets credit for these things, at the end of the day, you’ve contributed to the betterment and improved the knowledge of the hobby. That should be enough.
Take pride in the little things and you’ll continue to grow and your Gameseum will prosper even further.

Hey Isochronic! Woof, what a novel!

I think you misunderstood the purpose of the thread and I was just happy to share the information - I am passionate about pinball. Note that when the page was released in December 2019 the information was not available anywhere online. I was not aware that the IPDB later found out the information until today, which inspired me to post here, but not for any reason related to IPDB - it just sparked my memory of my article and it got a lot of praise on the EM pinball groups and after a re-read I figured as I reposted to the EM pinball Facebook group due to many people asking about it (where again, it's getting a lot of positive reception) that I would share here to Pinside too.

It really isn't that complicated. All is well!

-2
#13 7 months ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

You’ve found knowledge never before seen on the Internet!!!

And that I did. I did all the checks you are mentioned in your posts - nothing - nada. Over 500 people had a joy reading it over the EM Pinball forums on Facebook, and it was brand new news to them - many of old age and 30+ years in the hobby. It wasn't available at the time of publishing on any page of the internet, so it really was a discovery. Not trying to embellish...

In a group of over 5,000 EM enthusiasts, filled with many old timers, all were surprised and nobody brought up that they "already knew". It did not previously exist anywhere on the internet at the time of publishing... literally. I almost ended up in eBay China with how deep I searched.

Anyways, I can tell what direction this is already heading - not sure why people need to dig deeper and start throwing stones over something pretty cut and dry - it's a pinball story, and the first publication of it. Enjoy it, or move on if it's not worth your time as you say.

Best,
Steven

#14 7 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

I think you misunderstood the purpose of the thread and I was just happy to share the information - I am passionate about pinball. Note that when the page was released in December 2019 the information was not available anywhere online. I was not aware that the IPDB later found out the information until today, which inspired me to post here, but not for any reason related to IPDB - it just sparked my memory of my article and it got a lot of praise on the EM pinball groups and after a re-read I figured I would share it here with you all.

Just try and read the parts IPDB highlighted. They came off as self-serving and snarky. You’ve been getting very defensive in all the responses. It’s okay to take criticism and not try to defend against it.

Quoted from Otaku:

And that I did. Over 500 people had a joy reading it over the EM Pinball forums on Facebook. It wasn't available at the time of publishing, so it really was a discovery. Not trying to embellish...
Anyways, I can tell what direction this is already heading - not sure why people need to dig deeper and start throwing stones over something pretty cut and dry - it's a pinball story.

I did actually mean that sincerely. You did find information never posted on the Internet. It probably would have been better for me to elaborate on that point.
Just because somethings not recorded on the Internet doesn’t mean it’s unknown.
An example is the Easter Island heads.
The locals have said they “walked the heads” to their locations for thousands of years. Turns out scientists just did a huge study and recreation and found out they actually genuinely just walked them via rocking them side to side.
So just scientists didn’t know that the natives were telling the genuine truth, doesn’t mean the knowledge was “unknown” it just means it was published and rediscovered yet the entire island was like “yeah... we already told you this...”

Either way. Congrats and great job on the write up. Thanks for sharing it here. I’ll probably stop by your museum sometime this year to check out your collection. Again, I am genuinely looking forward to it and think you actually have accomplished a lot and should be proud of and humbled by your accomplishments.

#15 7 months ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Just try and read the parts IPDB highlighted. They came off as self-serving and snarky. You’ve been getting very defensive in all the responses. It’s okay to take criticism and not try to defend against it.

I did actually mean that sincerely. You did find information never posted on the Internet. It probably would have been better for me to elaborate on that point.
Just because somethings not recorded on the Internet doesn’t mean it’s unknown.
An example is the Easter Island heads.
The locals have said they “walked the heads” to their locations for thousands of years. Turns out scientists just did a huge study and recreation and found out they actually genuinely just walked them via rocking them side to side.
So just scientists didn’t know that the natives were telling the genuine truth, doesn’t mean the knowledge was “unknown” it just means it was published and rediscovered yet the entire island was like “yeah... we already told you this...”
Either way. Congrats and great job on the write up. Thanks for sharing it here. I’ll probably stop by your museum sometime this year to check out your collection. Again, I am genuinely looking forward to it and think you actually have accomplished a lot and should be proud of and humbled by your accomplishments.

Thank you, and I hope to see you stop by. No hard feelings by any means...

I get very excited over pinball. I make a life emphasizing the interesting facts of pinball to the masses (not to earn any extra - just because I really feel the passion and love to share), and the page is primarily directed towards laymen. When you try to tell a layman and a collector how cool a pinball machine is, you end up sounding like a jerk to the collector, I guess. If you thought this was bad, you should hear my cousin talk about it Pez collection! I bet if I was a Pez collector his 1960's Batman would sound a LOT less cool. Perhaps I was a little over the top about the Spacelab discovery, but it's still quite clear nobody discovered it beforehand so it's not dishonest, and even if not and somebody 40 ago years magically knew, I was still the first to present it to people (if tree falls over alone does it make a sound kind of thing?), and more importantly put a LOT of time into the write-up consisting of mostly theories that turned out to be true, and I was enthusiastic and proud of it. That's all - didn't think it would end up offending anybody. It doesn't seem to bother anybody over on the EM Pinball Facebook group and they actually enjoy it and even build further excitement upon it (and message me asking about the game a whole ton) - I'm not sure why displaying passion here bothers people... but that's all it is... perhaps it is not a problem on my end? It was the same way when I was young, and while I've grown in all the other departments, I'm blessed with enough people in my life who encouraged me not to let that pinball passion die even if some don't like it. No good reason to squash your passions.

Maybe last year there was a young man by the name of Curtis who displayed probably 2 times the excitement in pinball Facebook groups at an almost daily frequency and finally did get 25% of them fired up (would have been 3000% if it was on Pinside - lighter atmosphere in the Facebook world and the guy posted at a level where day 1 would have been Pinside suicide), probably because it came off like bragging, but when I spoke to him he promised it wasn't, and I saw it in a different light. I think a lot of people just mistake excitement and passion for bragging, I guess. He was a nice kid a little younger than me and just as obsessed with the EMs and he reminded me a lot of myself. A few months later he ended up leaving the groups and quitting the hobby just because of the negative comments - it really hurt to see that, all that passion literally killed and never to return. We need people like him. Hard to watch that fire behind's somebody eyes disappear due to other people and never want to see something like that go down again.

Not the first time my flaming love of pinball and exaggerating at times has had people rolling their eyes at me, but it comes from a place of pure passion, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It won't be going anywhere. Hope you understand.

Never trying to brag, just to share my passion with others, especially those with like-minded interests. If I liked to brag an EM pinball machine would probably be below many other things, this is pretty nerdy in comparison and not something I would put on a T-shirt or a car window decal. I really don't think anybody is jealous of my pinball machine... but interested to learn about it? Maybe, and I'm happy to share! (Or maybe they're not interested, and that's okay too, I advise those who don't like my content to just keep on scrolling and not wasting their time on it and read something they enjoy... I'm putting it out there but not shoving it down anybody's throat)

More proud and passionate of the write-up with no information to go off of besides my own machine, and being able to share the information, than I am of being "first" - I promise you that. But it was, so that was nice too, and makes for a great reveal to many people who were waiting over on Facebook!

#16 7 months ago

Too bad Space/Skylab is boring as shit.

#17 7 months ago
Quoted from frisbez:

Too bad Space/Skylab is boring as shit.

I actually found Spacelab to be quite fun. It's probably the add-a-ball rules that make it a big help, and the "over the top" scoring system that tracks scores past 99,990 that both Skylab and Spacelab-conversion lack is pretty cool too. (And lighting the a star on the backglass, if that's your thing) More well-needed with the increased scoring amounts of this version, not very hard to roll it over.

Not the quickest or most intuitive game I've ever played, but I found it to be fun for what it is. Most rare games have a bad habit of being not so great (otherwise they would have made a bunch - Gottlieb's Road Race/Stock Car comes to mind... rare for a reason), but this one luckily rode the coat tails of Skylab which Williams thought was good enough to do a full run of, and was rare because of a different reason than "it bombed at location testing", which is a welcome change.

I could see how playing it on replay mode would be a little stale.

Most bunch it with Jubilee/Darling, but this don't realize these games have slightly different features like the sides of the field each activating a different SPACELAB letter (it's spelled that way on all 3 games), rather than just being 10 point switches, so there's a little more objective in it than the infamous Jubilee & Darling which are more of putting the ball around for points and seeing which of 4 players gets bored first.

Good in a bigger collection. Only game to own besides the rarity and history factor? Ehh, would have to think a little harder on that one... but I think it's fun for what it is. Again, could be worse - could be Road Race!

#18 7 months ago

Also, the Spacelab "A" moniker is on the instruction cards as described in the article, I did not coin the name. Figured it was fitting enough and official enough to start referring to it as that.

16
#19 7 months ago
Quoted from frisbez:

Too bad Space/Skylab is boring as shit.

Lol, pease keep your posts in this thread to over 1000 words I’ll edit this post shortly with an additional 10 paragraphs.

#20 7 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Maybe last year there was a young man by the name of Curtis who displayed probably 2 times the excitement in pinball Facebook groups at an almost daily frequency and finally did get 25% of them fired up (would have been 3000% if it was on Pinside - lighter atmosphere in the Facebook world and the guy posted at a level where day 1 would have been Pinside suicide), probably because it came off like bragging, but when I spoke to him he promised it wasn't, and I saw it in a different light. I think a lot of people just mistake excitement and passion for bragging, I guess. He was a nice kid a little younger than me and just as obsessed with the EMs and he reminded me a lot of myself. A few months later he ended up leaving the groups and quitting the hobby just because of the negative comments - it really hurt to see that, all that passion literally killed and never to return.

Curtis didn't leave the hobby or the groups. I talk with him occasionally and he's still picking up and fixing games, and posting in Facebook groups I'm in...Please don't use such a nice guy to justify your behavior.

-1
#21 7 months ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Lol, pease keep your posts in this thread to over 1000 words I’ll edit this post shortly with an additional 10 paragraphs.

Just need to take your ADHD medication.

Added 7 months ago:

Redacted.

#22 7 months ago

Welcome back, you’re very entertaining.

#23 7 months ago
Quoted from Electrocute:

Welcome back, you’re very entertaining.

Thanks Electrocute!

#24 7 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Thanks Electrocute!

Oh wow. Bless your heart.

#25 7 months ago

.

#26 7 months ago

a++

#27 7 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Thanks Electrocute!

You’re welcome. Catching on, the shortest post ever by Otaku!

#28 7 months ago

I have a soft spot in my heart for WMS Skylab, as it is one of the games that i can actually remember playing in the 70s.

I also seem to remember the topic of SpaceLab vs. Skylab and the topic about the difference between Spacelab pins,
either conversions with just a new repro BG added into a Skylab pin
and compared to those few rare Spacelab originals that came out of the factory as a genuine Spacelab AAB,
(with different scoring potentials and differences noted on both the PF and BG),
These same topics threads were being discussed on RGP years ago
and one collector in particular having an original Spacelab and he knew the several ways to distinguish (confirm)
between an Original Spacelab and an aftermarket retrofit with repro BG.

(Upon further reflection these retrofit Spacelab pins may have been contructed that way straight from the factory,
with a simple (SpaceLab) BG replacment, into existing Skylab inventory.
Though I know for a fact that an excess NOS inventory of Spacelab (with normal scoring potential) Backglasses,
were available for years later at various pinball shows, most supplied by Donal Murphy.)

Similar situation can be said for WMS ADD A BALL and Skill Ball,
were some Skill Ball pins were converted by use of a repro AddABall BG
to make it appear they might be a proto or sample game.
Also maybe GTB Big Injun and Big Indian, because of availability of aftermarket repro Backglasses.

cheers Tom
an oldtimer

#29 7 months ago
Quoted from Otaku:

This is clearly what happened, and I'm assuming Don also provided you most of the info... which he clearly took from my site. Every little detail (even the serial number format bit, the stars, the backbox insert, etc.) is nearly copied word for word. I've been throwing the discovery around for quite some time (as well as Don's name which I found years ago via IPSND during my research and noticing his serial format matched mine, attempting to establish contact, which is likely how he heard he had the "odd" Spacelab) before I published the article, and the December 2019 release of my article clearly inspired Don to reach out with the details later in the month.

That is NOT clearly what happened. I am not on/have never been on/do not do Facebook at all and had never seen your page.
As Jay from IPDB stated, I emailed him in 2018 after seeing the entry in the database and finding so many differences on my machine. We traded emails and I sent a bunch of pictures, and then heard nothing. I was unaware of the problems he was having updating the site.
At the end of last year I emailed him asking if he ever found out anything else about the game, we traded a few questions back and forth, and I supplied a few more pics. Around that time he got the site repaired and was able to load some updates.

Again, seeing this thread on pinside is the first time I have ever been aware of your Facebook page or that you even owned this game.

-Don

13
#30 7 months ago
Quoted from dhutton:

That is NOT clearly what happened. I am not on/have never been on/do not do Facebook at all and had never seen your page.
As Jay from IPDB stated, I emailed him in 2018 after seeing the entry in the database and finding so many differences on my machine. We traded emails and I sent a bunch of pictures, and then heard nothing. I was unaware of the problems he was having updating the site.
At the end of last year I emailed him asking if he ever found out anything else about the game, we traded a few questions back and forth, and I supplied a few more pics. Around that time he got the site repaired and was able to load some updates.
Again, seeing this thread on pinside is the first time I have ever been aware of your Facebook page or that you even owned this game.
-Don

Frankly you are wasting your time. He’s just gonna double down on his nonsense like he always does. May as well just pretend that you never knew anything about space lab - or in fact anything else, about anything - until otaku came along. Trust me, it’s just easier this way.

It’s his world bro. The rest of us just live in it.

#31 7 months ago

Don’t be afraid to give yourself credit.

#32 7 months ago
Quoted from dhutton:

That is NOT clearly what happened. I am not on/have never been on/do not do Facebook at all and had never seen your page.
As Jay from IPDB stated, I emailed him in 2018 after seeing the entry in the database and finding so many differences on my machine. We traded emails and I sent a bunch of pictures, and then heard nothing. I was unaware of the problems he was having updating the site.
At the end of last year I emailed him asking if he ever found out anything else about the game, we traded a few questions back and forth, and I supplied a few more pics. Around that time he got the site repaired and was able to load some updates.
Again, seeing this thread on pinside is the first time I have ever been aware of your Facebook page or that you even owned this game.
-Don

Yes Don. Thanks for pointing out what to do if you think you've found something unique and it doesn't jive with what you see on IPDB...contact Jay. Jay's been at it at least twice as long as Spinside and is the defacto SOURCE for pinball info. I wish the creators of this site had just linked to or worked with Jay's site and instead of trying to recreate a list of pins here...but whatev. Maybe they did...it just causes undue confusion...

#33 7 months ago

Hi Stoomer
I like pinside to have "a list of pinball machines" for the additional info - see my JPG - at the end of "Orbit-Info-in-pinside" : What topics have linked "Orbit" - what multimeadia have information. Greetings Rolf

0Orbit-pinside-info (resized).jpg
#34 7 months ago
Quoted from Stoomer:

I wish the creators of this site had just linked to or worked with Jay's site and instead of trying to recreate a list of pins here...but whatev. Maybe they did...it just causes undue confusion...

They do have a link to the IPDB page for each game here on Pinside. It is small but it is there!

Screen Shot 2020-02-25 at 4.51.20 PM (resized).png
#35 7 months ago
Quoted from Stoomer:

Yes Don. Thanks for pointing out what to do if you think you've found something unique and it doesn't jive with what you see on IPDB...contact Jay. Jay's been at it at least twice as long as Spinside and is the defacto SOURCE for pinball info. I wish the creators of this site had just linked to or worked with Jay's site and instead of trying to recreate a list of pins here...but whatev. Maybe they did...it just causes undue confusion...

Most of the Pinside database is directly linked to IPDB, but some homebrews are listed here and certain boutique games that IPDB does not list. However once you get to games pre-70’s the IPDB typically has a more complete database.
One nice feature is that on Pinside the details and features are very easily listed. On IPDB the UI is a bit archaic and the presentation is a bit word-heavy. It’s a cluster of text, and Pinside it has very nice visual presentation.
Also as presented when IPDB was broken for 2 years it didn’t hold back Pinside at all, another bonus of having an independent/redundant database.

#36 7 months ago

There is more hyperbole in this discovery story than a presidential speech.

1 month later
#37 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Frankly you are wasting your time. He’s just gonna double down on his nonsense like he always does. May as well just pretend that you never knew anything about space lab - or in fact anything else, about anything - until otaku came along. Trust me, it’s just easier this way.
It’s his world bro. The rest of us just live in it.

Not sure it's ever going to sink in.

#38 5 months ago

Gameseum is in survival mode. Can’t really kick Otaku when he’s down. Weather permitting!

#39 5 months ago
Quoted from Electrocute:

Gameseum is in survival mode. Can’t really kick Otaku when he’s down. Weather permitting!

Didn't expect a bump after a month. I'm doing alright, but it's a shaky time for all for sure... survival mode is a good term, we're all in survival mode. Coincidentally my very good friend Todd Tuckey (who misses our weekly Applebees outing as much as I do) described the Gameseum COVID situation REALLY well this morning on Kaneda's Pinball Podcast... the whole episode is a fantastic listen. Unexpected shoutout, but he speaks the truth... unfortunately some didn't have as many savings - I try to keep a big cushion at all times, and it saved me well. Definitely keeping all fellow arcade operators in my thoughts!

Timestamped link:

https://soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/episode-474-todd-tuckey#t=22:39

1 week later
#40 5 months ago

Our Applebee Adventures will continue one day...I am settling for an iced glass in freezer to enjoy my O'Douls here at TNT, all by myself, as my empire crumbles around me! And no Twipy Award either!!

#41 5 months ago
Quoted from toddtuckey:

Our Applebee Adventures will continue one day...I am settling for an iced glass in freezer to enjoy my O'Douls here at TNT, all by myself, as my empire crumbles around me! And no Twipy Award either!!

You will always be the top Twipy in my book Todd!

1 week later
#42 5 months ago

I'm curious - might this be another one of the "A" machines: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-horror-pics/page/47#post-5610815

#43 5 months ago

Oh god, it is. Well that's an awful shame. I reached out but not really expecting a response 4 days later, and traveling across state lines doesn't seem like the best idea. Hopefully somebody could grab this. (Heck, if somebody here got it, I'd be interested in purchasing it, in the future)

Sucks they left it outside after "it worked a few weeks ago". Always sucks when something lasts for decades and THEN some idiot destroys it. It'd be different if it got wet in 1980.

01010_lrkAIX0MyHs_1200x900 (resized).jpg00N0N_l4McSWeCmpQ_1200x900 (resized).jpg00202_aCDpsO35uzC_1200x900 (resized).jpg
#44 5 months ago

Why not post a pic so we can see the game?

#45 5 months ago

Doubt that machine was working just weeks ago. Look at the ancient duct tape that is still holding the playfield glass in place.
Probably done to keep the glass from sliding off since the lockdown bar was missing.

#46 5 months ago

That game is no loss. Belongs in land fill after being stripped for parts

1 week later
#47 4 months ago

Spacelab "A" #2 came home with me (for free)! Besides some cabinet warping the game is actually really nice. Mint inside. The inside of the body and the playfield never saw water. All mechanisms are free and nice condition. Apparently it wasn't out there more than a week

Playfield is REALLY nice, nicer than my other one. Glass is scratched in the weirdest worst way but the playfield is great... low plays

Now all three known to exist reside in Pennsylvania... two with me, one with another.

This one also has a factory knocker like my other one btw

The cabinet is actually still pretty solid and isn't moldy so it wasn't out there long. Just some minor delaminating and warping, will probably need replaced, but is actually waaaaaay better than I thought

Since it was up on legs at least no standing water and always dried up pretty quick. Better than a flood. Really not so bad honestly, I am shocked!

Serial number 173753 (lowest), my other one is 173764 (highest), and the other one owned by another collector is 173757. The range is now officially at 11

FB_IMG_1588972993077 (resized).jpg
FB_IMG_1588973008268 (resized).jpg
FB_IMG_1588972999975 (resized).jpgFB_IMG_1588973014458 (resized).jpg

#48 4 months ago

Great example of not judging a book by its cover. No machine should suffer that fate, rare or not. Glad you were able to rescue it.

#49 4 months ago

Looks a little rough to me, especially around the inserts. Good luck!

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